[3.P/PF]Magic Knight

[PlusSixPelican]

What's a good class combo as the base for a Lawful Good Tiefling Eldritch Knight? I was thinking like, Ranger/Wizard, but I'm not super-boss at this stuff.

Or rather, a character who's both an arcane caster and an able physical combatant, not necessarily in a lot of armor, but *some*. Thoughts?

[Kaje]

magus

more letters

[Rhaegar14]

magus

more letters

So much this. Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus

Edit: Whoops, copied the link for the wrong tab.

[PlusSixPelican]

Ooh. *facepalm*

Yep. LG Tiefling Magus time. Thank you.

[Sayt]

Magus is cool. It's simple and easy, it focuses on damage spells and combat, and it does it's own thing decently.

That said, Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9 gets heavy amour casting at level 6, rather than 13, 17 BAB (With fractional), and CL 17~ (full with Practised Spellcaster), and manages to snag access to ninth level spells, if you want that little bit more power, for all it's inelegant, messy glory. (And it has a racial requirement for Dwarf.)

[PlusSixPelican]

Magus is cool. It's simple and easy, it focuses on damage spells and combat, and it does it's own thing decently.

That said, Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9 gets heavy amour casting at level 6, rather than 13, 17 BAB (With fractional), and CL 17~ (full with Practised Spellcaster), and manages to snag access to ninth level spells, if you want that little bit more power, for all it's inelegant, messy glory. (And it has a racial requirement for Dwarf.)

That sounds great, and I'll be using it on another NPC, but on the other side of it, I do need a Tiefling who can both wade into Melee like a badass and cast 7th-level stuff. (There's a specific spell that's involved in the plot.)

[Larkas]

That sounds great, and I'll be using it on another NPC, but on the other side of it, I do need a Tiefling who can both wade into Melee like a badass and cast 7th-level stuff. (There's a specific spell that's involved in the plot.)

Eh, if you're looking for 7th-level spells, you're looking at the wrong class, since Magi can only cast up to 6th-level spells... You might have to take a look at messier builds if that's a must, and a standard Sorcadin comes to mind (Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8).

[PlusSixPelican]

Specifically, I need him able to cast a few Ice Castles (around the PCs) at various point in the plot. Also, for the fun of it, he's got the Young Template, so he's got an extra level, basically.

Ideally, nothing more than about ECL 15 (if possible.)

[Larkas]

Using the aforementioned build, you can cast Ice Castle at ECL 16: [Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 4] will net you the spellcasting ability of a Sorcerer 14, the minimum needed to cast that spell.

You can't do better than that with a Sorcadin. There are, however, other "gishy" builds that can:

Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 7

This will net you 7th-level spell slots exactly at ECL 15, as you would have the spellcasting ability of a Wizard 13, the minimum needed for those. If your DM won't let you take Knight Phantom, take Eldritch Knight instead. It is a little less optimal, but works just as well. This doesn't have the beauty and elegance of a Sorcadin build, but is undoubtedly stronger.

[PlusSixPelican]

I'm the DM in question, and uhm, what book(s) are Spellsword and Abjurant Champion in? Also, probably using Int-based casting, to contrast with a party with FOUR cha-casters.

Could someone outline the exact levels of the ECL 15 LG Young Tiefling 'Magic Knight'

'cuz I keep seeing builds that are all like, up to L20 when I count 'em.

[Snowbluff]

Tiefling? Use the Lesser Tiefling or the Savage Progression.

Wizard6/Swiftblade9 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

Use the Wizard Variant in UA to get fighter bonus feats.

Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Arcane Strike.

[PlusSixPelican]

Tiefling? Use the Lesser Tiefling or the Savage Progression.

Wizard6/Swiftblade9 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

Use the Wizard Variant in UA to get fighter bonus feats.

Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Arcane Strike.

But what's the final caster level on Wiz6/Swiftblade9?
Not enough to Ice Castle.

[Snowbluff]

But what's the final caster level on Wiz7/Swiftblade9?
Not enough to Ice Castle.

Spontaneous Divination Wizard, Versatile Spellcaster, Write Ice Castle into your book from a scroll so you know it.

Or fill with Abj Champ3 at the end (Wiz6/SB6/Champ3). Whatever works. The Swiftblade is too good for a Wizard to pass up.

[Sayt]

I'm the DM in question, and uhm, what book(s) are Spellsword and Abjurant Champion in? Also, probably using Int-based casting, to contrast with a party with FOUR cha-casters.

Spellsword is Complete Warrior, Abjurant Champion is Complete Mage.

[PlusSixPelican]

Spellsword is Complete Warrior, Abjurant Champion is Complete Mage.

Thanks! <3

So, preliminary build results:
LG Young Tiefling Magic Knight
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3=ECL 15.
Arcane Armor Spell Fail: -10% from total.
Notes at this stage:
1) I'm probably giving the little person (gender undecided as of this point) leather armor or something, unless anyone has any ideas for reducing the armor fail a bit more by rearranging the levels. Oh, and Mage Armor in the spellbook. That's just a given for a close-up caster.
2) Wondering what kind of weapon they'll use. Guessing some kind of sword or magic sword. But possibly something else. Keep in mind it's for a Small-sized creature, since it's a childrnes.
3) Wondering how she/he handles somatic components in a fray. Probably just missing something in a sourcebook, though. Reading is hard.



Yes, the character is a child. That's why I used the Young Template. Considering the slow maturation of Tieflings, they could be in his 40's and look around 12. That's a couple decades of training time, minimum. That's plenty of time to pick up levels.

[Larkas]

I'm the DM in question, and uhm, what book(s) are Spellsword and Abjurant Champion in? Also, probably using Int-based casting, to contrast with a party with FOUR cha-casters.

Could someone outline the exact levels of the ECL 15 LG Young Tiefling 'Magic Knight'

'cuz I keep seeing builds that are all like, up to L20 when I count 'em.

Of course, silly, you never mentioned you were the DM in question, I was presenting the build as a fellow player! :smallbiggrin:

As Sayt aptly said, Spellsword can be found in Complete Warrior, p. 79, while Abjurant Champiom can be found in Complete Mage, p. 50. And for the record, Sacred Exorcist can be found in Complete Divine, p. 56, and Swiftblade can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

I'll get to the build, but first I want to discuss your choice of template. Young Creature (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/monsterAdvancement.html#young-creature-(cr--1)) is not at all necessary for this character. Have you taken a look at Paizo's Advanced Race Guide? Here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/exampleRaces.html#tieflings) is the breakdown for the Tiefling. It has a total RP of only 13, whereas a "playable" race wants to have around 10 RP (this is not set in stone: Dwarf has 11 RP, whereas Half-Orc has only 8 RP). Now, if you take a look at that breakdown, you'll see that Fiendish Sorcery is worth 1 RP, while the darkness SLA is worth 2 RP. I recommend simply stripping them off the Tiefling! It's not like darkness 1/day would be much useful for a Wizard, and Fiendish Sorcery will never come up for this character. Even if you don't want to mess with it, at 13 RP it is pretty reasonable as a player character right off the bat! Young will be penalizing it too much, since at -2 hp/HD you will be throwing your ability to go melee out the window!

Now, on the build itself, simply deduct the last 5 levels from the build I presented. At ECL 15, it would go as Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 2, in that order. There's nothing much to it, really, just take everything in order, and make sure you qualify for the PrCs when you take them. And remember: you are using 3.5 material in a PF game. If a PrC need ranks in a skill, reduce it by 3 (in 3.5, max ranks=level+3, in PF, max ranks=level). Spellsword, for example, will need only 3 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), while Knight Phantom will need 1 rank in Ride. On the feat side, you'll need Combat Casting for Abjurant Champion and Still Spell for Knight Phantom. Aside from that, you'll qualify for the classes pretty much automatically if you take them in order. This is a very flexible build, actually. I recommend taking the Focused Specialist variant, present in Complete Mage, p. 34. Between it and regular specialization, you'll have an extra 2 spell slots per level. Furthermore, in Pathfinder you can even cast spells from your opposition schools, you just have to burn more slots for it!

Since apparently you didn't know about Abjurant Champion, it never hurts to tell you about its quirk: the class was made with the assumption that mage armor is an abjuration spell. It isn't. As a conjuration spell, it shouldn't benefit from Abjurant Armor. You can fix this in three ways. First, you can simply say that mage armor IS an abjuration spell (which fits it much better, btw) and be done with it. Second, you can say that your character researched an abjuration version of mage armor, which amounts to the same but doesn't fix the original spell. And third, give the character access to Book of Exalted Deeds' Sanctified spells (which as a LG prepared caster it should already have, anyways; read p. 83, on Sanctified Magic), and give it luminous armor and greater luminous armor; this isn't a perfect fix, since mage armor is a 1st-level spell, whereas luminous armor is a 2nd-level one, but it works. Myself, I would use both the first and the third fixes at the same time: it makes much more sense for mage armor to be an abjuration than a conjuration spell, and luminous armor (and specially greater luminous armor) are great spells, though not necessarily needed all the time.

Anyways, this is the gist of it. If you need more help fleshing out the entire build, don't hesitate to ask for help!

On a parting note, I'm not a fan of Swiftblade: it has too many lost caster levels. If you take it all the way, you are forever barred from 9th-level spells (a Wizard can only lose 3 caster levels to be able to cast 9ths, and Swiftblade loses 4). You must also spend too many feats on martial stuff, and have to make do with d6 hit die (though admittedly that isn't much of a problem, and could be revised for PF). At least as an outsider you don't have to worry about the weapon proficiency requirement, as you arguably automatically qualify. That's not to say it can't be salvaged, but I would strive to lose no more than 2 caster levels: Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/ Swiftblade 3/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 5 or Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 6/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3. If you want to break the action economy (which as a Wizard you should be doing already using other methods), you can go for Swiftblade 9, though that will hurt your casting: Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5; this build will be able to naturally cast Ice Castle only at ECL 16, @ Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 1. It works, and probably works well, but IMHO it's more of a time mage that for some reason learned how to use a sword than an actual Magic Knight. Besides, you can replicate almost everything this build can do with the other one using spells (short of it's "3.0 Haste": in 3.5, you could always shapechange into a choker, but in PF they fixed Quickness - which must say something about Perpetual Options brokenness). Anyways, go with whichever build you prefer.

PS: Don't bother with lesser Tiefling. This isn't 3.5.

EDIT: You posted as I was writing :smallbiggrin: You could do away with ASF completely by using any light armor with Knight Phantom 1, but since you prefer Eldritch Knight, you could always use a mithral chain shirt!

And if the character is a child for any reason other than mechanical, then disregard my advice on Advanced Race Guide :smallwink:

[PlusSixPelican]

Wow, that was a fast and lengthy reply. Thank you!

The Young part of it is there because the character is a child. It was in the post. Anyways, I was going to rely on that added dexterity, the fairly large HD of most of those classes (and maxing the results of the HD rolls, since I'm DM and such), and the increased defensive capacity an abjurant champion has to get around the lower'd hp/HD issue as best I can.

I'm unaware of another mechanical translation of childhood that isn't third party.

Anyways, anyone have thoughts on gear/feats? >.<

EDIT: I'm building around Int and Dex, mostly, by intent.

[Snowbluff]

Twilight Armor from PHB2 and MIC (?) will reduce your ACF for your armor by 10%. That should let you don some heavier armor.

Also, if you pick up some Master Specialist (Abjurer) you can grab some better abjuration spells from classes. Like Armor of Darkness (SpC) or Shield of Faith. Or keep your Wis high and get Arcane Disciple (CD) to pick up those spells.

3 CL lost is acceptable to a wizard, and it's worth it. SOOOOO MUCH. Int to Init for starters. :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

On the Young Template, no worries! I thought you were giving it to the character only because of the "extra level" :smallsmile:

And it just occurred to me. This is 3.P. You DO have access to Tome of Battle. :smallredface: Please, consider this build: Warblade 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Jade Phoenix Mage 7. It works just as well as the previous build, specially because you're using Eldritch Knight, and is so much more fun! Warblade can be found on Tome of Battle, p. 20 and Jade Phoenix Mage can be found on the same book, p. 113. :smallwink:

On the equipment, I'm not really great at choosing gear :smallbiggrin:

- You might want to get the best Amulet of Natural Armor possible.

- On armor, you might choose a Feycraft Mithral Breastplate as a base: It has an ASF of 10%, a maximum Dex of +5 and ACP of -1, counts as a light armor (which won't get in the way of moving) and the regular AB of +6. Feycraft is an armor template found on Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 275. The best of it is that this base is nonmagical, so you can add the full +10 enhancements on top of it!

- On weapon, you can't go wrong with some sort of small greatsword (dmg=1d10).

Just remember: mage armor and the like provide armor bonuses to AC, which DON'T stack with armor bonuses from armor. So don't stack up on armor enhancements, turn all those pluses into armor properties! Greater luminous armor will provide +13 to AC @ Abjurant Champion 5!

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and an animated shield. And it would be peachy if you could get an armor or shield that made you immune to ability damage, since casting sanctified spells have a small price in health. I'm pretty sure there is an armor property that does just that. It's nothing big and that can't be trivially cured by low level spells, though.

[PlusSixPelican]

Not that I don't love ToB (I does, it's interesting and has a lot to offer), a Magic Knight's fine without maneuvers, because they confuse me a bunch and feel crowded on the build. They gots spells, sword(s), and the added coolness of being a Tiefling that smells like cinnamon already. Also, settled on male for the character. ^^

And on Armor, Twilight Armor mod and the -10% from the Spellsword dip meeeeeeans I can use any armor up to a 20% armor fail. Probably a Chain Shirt.

[Larkas]

And on Armor, Twilight Armor mod and the -10% from the Spellsword dip meeeeeeans I can use any armor up to a 20% armor fail. Probably a Chain Shirt.

Please don't. Don't waste a point of enhancement on Twilight unless you want to use an armor which regularly has ASF of 30~35%. Mithral (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#mithral) decreases the ASF by 10%, doesn't use up enhancement bonuses and makes the armor count as one category lighter (heavy->medium, medium->light). Feycraft decreases the ASF by another 5%, and also doesn't use up enhancement bonuses. Only use Twilight if you want to use a Full Plate: A Twilight Feycraft Mithral Full Plate has an ASF of 10% (35%-10%-5%-10%), and counts as a medium armor.

But...


Just remember: mage armor and the like provide armor bonuses to AC, which DON'T stack with armor bonuses from armor. So don't stack up on armor enhancements, turn all those pluses into armor properties! Greater luminous armor will provide +13 to AC @ Abjurant Champion 5!

So there's really no reason to use a full plate over a breastplate: you will be getting +3 to AC at the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus, a bonus you won't be using anyways, since greater luminous armor overwrites it! Not only that, you're reducing the potential you could achieve with that armor, since you're burning an enhancement bonus with Twilight. (An enhancement bonus you could be spending on Death Ward, for example, a property that makes you immune to ability damage, IIRC. Magic Item Compendium, p. 10.)

[PlusSixPelican]

How is he picking up Luminous Armor? O.O;

I got kinda lost.

[Larkas]

Yeah, that happens when I get too verbose. :smallbiggrin:


Since apparently you didn't know about Abjurant Champion, it never hurts to tell you about its quirk: the class was made with the assumption that mage armor is an abjuration spell. It isn't. As a conjuration spell, it shouldn't benefit from Abjurant Armor. You can fix this in three ways. First, you can simply say that mage armor IS an abjuration spell (which fits it much better, btw) and be done with it. Second, you can say that your character researched an abjuration version of mage armor, which amounts to the same but doesn't fix the original spell. And third, give the character access to Book of Exalted Deeds' Sanctified spells (which as a LG prepared caster it should already have, anyways; read p. 83, on Sanctified Magic), and give it luminous armor and greater luminous armor; this isn't a perfect fix, since mage armor is a 1st-level spell, whereas luminous armor is a 2nd-level one, but it works. Myself, I would use both the first and the third fixes at the same time: it makes much more sense for mage armor to be an abjuration than a conjuration spell, and luminous armor (and specially greater luminous armor) are great spells, though not necessarily needed all the time.

[Snowbluff]

How is he picking up Luminous Armor? O.O;

I got kinda lost.

If you are

1) Good.

B) A prepared caster.

You can

III) Prepare and cast Luminous Armor.

[PlusSixPelican]

Alright.
Now my question(s) is/are:
-Can I use Eschew to not take damage.
-What else wards off the ability damage?

[Larkas]

Alright.
Now my question(s) is/are:
-Can I use Eschew to not take damage.
-What else wards off the ability damage?

- No.
- Arguably, the Death Ward armor property. But you can use a Rod of Bodily Restoration to great effect, since at caster level 12, with Abjurant Champion 1, your luminous armor will be lasting 24h, anyways.

[doko239]

Some other suggestions for you:

Synthesist - An archetype for the PF Summoner. Summons an Eidolon and binds the caster to it, replacing your physical stats, BAB, natural armor, movement types/speeds, size bonuses/penalties and natural attacks with those of the Eidolon, with a hefty pile of temporary HP tacked on as well. Lower spell progression, but some heavily discounted spells (Haste as 2nd level spell, Create Demiplane as 6th level spell, etc). I had a character like this in PFS, fluffed the Eidolon to resemble Full Plate armor.

Arcane Armor Training/Arcane Armor Mastery - Use swift actions to reduce your spellcasting failure by up to 20% for the rest of the round. Hurts action economy, but for those moments where you REALLY need to pop off that one spell...

[PlusSixPelican]

Some other suggestions for you:

Synthesist - An archetype for the PF Summoner. Summons an Eidolon and binds the caster to it, replacing your physical stats, BAB, natural armor, movement types/speeds, size bonuses/penalties and natural attacks with those of the Eidolon, with a hefty pile of temporary HP tacked on as well. Lower spell progression, but some heavily discounted spells (Haste as 2nd level spell, Create Demiplane as 6th level spell, etc). I had a character like this in PFS, fluffed the Eidolon to resemble Full Plate armor.

Arcane Armor Training/Arcane Armor Mastery - Use swift actions to reduce your spellcasting failure by up to 20% for the rest of the round. Hurts action economy, but for those moments where you REALLY need to pop off that one spell...

Please read the whole thing.
Synthesist isn't something I can do.

[doko239]

Please read the whole thing.
Synthesist isn't something I can do.

Other than the requirement for Ice Castle, I didn't see anything precluding using this class; and a few Scrolls of Ice Castle should be able to fix that, especially when you can give yourself +8 racial to UMD via the Skilled evolution.

[PlusSixPelican]

Other than the requirement for Ice Castle, I didn't see anything precluding using this class; and a few Scrolls of Ice Castle should be able to fix that, especially when you can give yourself +8 racial to UMD via the Skilled evolution.

Whoopdedoo, I'm not using synthesist on this NPC. Sorry. Need the 7th-level casting. It was in the dicussion. Synthesist wouldn't work for the magic knight, or qualify for Luminous Armor. They also lack medium or heavy armor proficiency, martial weapons, a high enough HD for a Young templated character to be comfortable with, or enough spell selection to even include casting Ice castle if they bothered having 7th-level spells.

Please. Stop plugging the idea.

Also, casting off a scroll when you have to spend 2000 gp on the spell, and then more on the scroll means ROLLING FOR IT. Would you gamble a spell with a 2000 gp component? No. Instead of actually getting the spell off as a guarantee because you can cast 7th level stuff. WHY, tell me why please, would you use a scroll of Ice Castle? Uggh.

TL;DR
Read the thread before popping in with a reply that's not helpful. Sorry if I'm rude about informing you of this.

[PlusSixPelican]

Sorry I snapped like that. >_>

I feel bad now. But yeah, at this point I'm thinking more gear/feats/spells than class levels. ^^