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ThiagoMartell
2012-12-03, 10:16 AM
I have this idea of guys using biplanes (blame Sorrel in Scarlet (http://www.lulu.com/shop/peter-vialls/sorrel-in-scarlet/ebook/product-20425370.html)!) to intercept commercial flights.
I still don't know exactly WHY they would do so, but that's not really the problem.

I want to figure out HOW. This is on a near future setting with slightly more advanced technolog, but these guys are supposed to be some kind of underground militia or something along those lines (that's why they are using biplanes, after all). There are supernatural powers in the setting, but they are not as versatile as most RPGs have (it's very small scale - think Street Fighter, not Dragonball). My best guess is that they need an air elemental to give the biplanes that extra edge (so the pilot is always going to be one of these) and the guys who actually board the commercial planes need to teleport. So, elementally-boosted biplane catches up to airplane, dude jumps out and teleports inside.

But I don't know, teleport just sounds like cheating. Any ideas on how else to make this work? Any probems with the current setup?

Tvtyrant
2012-12-03, 11:15 AM
If the air elementals can themselves fly, it would make more sense to use a 2 person bi-plane. A normal person flying and an air elemental who jumps out and flies up to the door, which is conveniently opened from within by a plant. The air elemental hands the other man a gun in addition to their own, and they take the plane hostage and land it on their own island-fortress.

Anxe
2012-12-03, 11:39 AM
If a hijacking occurred, I'm pretty sure the criminals wouldn't need to board the vessel they're hijacking. They could just radio over and say, "Do what we want or we shoot you out of the sky. If we see backup arriving, we'll shoot you out of the sky."

RandomLunatic
2012-12-03, 11:49 AM
You cannot simply overtake a commercial jet airliner with a biplane-they are too fast. The typical jet airliner cruises somewhere between 600 and 660 miles per hour-just short of the sound barrier. The Gloster Gladiator, sometimes regarded as the ultimate biplane fighter, only gets 253.

If you replace "biplane" with "any cheap civilian aircraft that would be easy-ish to get a hold of", things do not get much better. The world speed record for propeller-driven aircraft in level flight is 592 mph, but that is a racing aircraft-an old fighter that was tricked out for even more speed. Your typical light civilian piston-engined plane maxes somewhere 200 and 300 mph.

So you need to work smarter, not harder. Commercial aircraft are required to file flight plans. If you can hold of them somehow, you can work out with a reasonable degree of accuracy where it will be at any given time. Then you can arrange to have a plane waiting for it, intercept it from ahead, and then you can teleport aboard.

Depending on the range and accuracy of your teleport, you can even forgo the plane entirely. Simply 'port into the cockpit of the plane as they take off and take over.

Analytica
2012-12-03, 04:26 PM
If a hijacking occurred, I'm pretty sure the criminals wouldn't need to board the vessel they're hijacking. They could just radio over and say, "Do what we want or we shoot you out of the sky. If we see backup arriving, we'll shoot you out of the sky."

Yup. :smallbiggrin:

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-03, 09:31 PM
If the air elementals can themselves fly, it would make more sense to use a 2 person bi-plane. A normal person flying and an air elemental who jumps out and flies up to the door, which is conveniently opened from within by a plant. The air elemental hands the other man a gun in addition to their own, and they take the plane hostage and land it on their own island-fortress.
They can't fly. Elementals in this setting are not being made of an element, but people attuned to an element. They can jump high and evne jump in mid-air, but they can't fly.

If a hijacking occurred, I'm pretty sure the criminals wouldn't need to board the vessel they're hijacking. They could just radio over and say, "Do what we want or we shoot you out of the sky. If we see backup arriving, we'll shoot you out of the sky."
That would make them too villain-ish.


You cannot simply overtake a commercial jet airliner with a biplane-they are too fast. The typical jet airliner cruises somewhere between 600 and 660 miles per hour-just short of the sound barrier. The Gloster Gladiator, sometimes regarded as the ultimate biplane fighter, only gets 253.
Hm, that's too big of a difference indeed.


If you replace "biplane" with "any cheap civilian aircraft that would be easy-ish to get a hold of", things do not get much better. The world speed record for propeller-driven aircraft in level flight is 592 mph, but that is a racing aircraft-an old fighter that was tricked out for even more speed. Your typical light civilian piston-engined plane maxes somewhere 200 and 300 mph.
This is sounding harder and harder. Hm.


So you need to work smarter, not harder. Commercial aircraft are required to file flight plans. If you can hold of them somehow, you can work out with a reasonable degree of accuracy where it will be at any given time. Then you can arrange to have a plane waiting for it, intercept it from ahead, and then you can teleport aboard.
I thought about that before, but it sounded less awesome than flying side to side with the plane. Looks like it's the only option, though.


Depending on the range and accuracy of your teleport, you can even forgo the plane entirely. Simply 'port into the cockpit of the plane as they take off and take over.
No, it's very short range, it would have to be nearby. In fact, I'm having a hard time figuring out how not to be splattered even with a successful teleport, due to the difference in speed.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, they have all been very helpful.

Quietus
2012-12-04, 12:45 AM
If you can get hold of the flight plans, you can fly to intercept, then use a grappling hook/magnet/whatever to attach the biplane to the jetliner, then do the parasail thing behind - use the jet's own engines to keep up with it. You still need a way to get into the jet, though, as I can't remember if it's outright impossible to open the doors mid-flight, or just a Supremely Bad Idea, but either way that's not going to work.

TuggyNE
2012-12-04, 02:04 AM
If you can get hold of the flight plans, you can fly to intercept, then use a grappling hook/magnet/whatever to attach the biplane to the jetliner, then do the parasail thing behind - use the jet's own engines to keep up with it.

Two possible problems with this: a) biplanes aren't designed for such high speeds, and might literally break apart; b) ATC gives traffic advisories based on radar, so you may have a difficult time actually intercepting them.

You can probably solve this by designing a carbon-fiber stealth aircraft that dives from altitude to nearly match speed, but that's non-trivial and doesn't really fit.

At this point it might be more sensible to just use a business jet. (Or board while they're in an airspace that restricts them to 250kt, but that's only below 10000' AGL and near certain airports.)

SowZ
2012-12-04, 02:08 AM
They can't fly. Elementals in this setting are not being made of an element, but people attuned to an element. They can jump high and evne jump in mid-air, but they can't fly.

That would make them too villain-ish.


Hm, that's too big of a difference indeed.


This is sounding harder and harder. Hm.


I thought about that before, but it sounded less awesome than flying side to side with the plane. Looks like it's the only option, though.


No, it's very short range, it would have to be nearby. In fact, I'm having a hard time figuring out how not to be splattered even with a successful teleport, due to the difference in speed.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, they have all been very helpful.

The shoot them down thing could be a bluff.

RandomLunatic
2012-12-04, 03:18 AM
Well, then, I guess the key is target selection. Jets are effectively unassailable without advanced knowledge, but there are plenty of commercial prop planes too. While tending to be smaller (sometimes much more so) than jet planes, they also fly a lot slower, making catching within the realm of possibility.

Alternatively, if you have a DIY streak and absolutely no regard for sanity or human life, you could take notes from the Me 163 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_163). The Komet is basically a glider with a rocket engine jammed in the back, and both are, if not easy, than at least not excessively hard to make at home. Done right, it nets you something that can catch a jet airliner. The downside is presumably a really short operational range, and a disturbing propensity for the rocket planes to burst into flames at the slightest provocation.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-04, 04:05 AM
The Komet is basically a glider with a rocket engine jammed in the back, and both are, if not easy, than at least not excessively hard to make at home.


I... I think I'm in love

Anxe
2012-12-04, 10:53 AM
Gonna throw this out there, why not do exactly what Bane does in the opening scene of Dark Knight Rises?

Bouregard
2012-12-04, 01:05 PM
So many posts and noone mentioned talespin?


http://www.noe-v.com/images/articles/talespin01.jpg


Meet captain carnage. Sky pirates armed with an oversized airship as a mobile base and scores of little triplanes. You'll need to change your setting to early 1930 but hey, it's glorious!


And if in doubt, screw realism. If your propeller driven junkpile has to outrace a modern jet, do it.

Just handwave it with unobtanium fuel that works only with standard engines and really really illegal engine upgrades.

Lentrax
2012-12-04, 01:18 PM
Yeah, unless you do something really outlandish for the pirates tech wise, sky piracy just isn't very feasible for a modern setting.

Unless your Komets have magnetic grapplers.

There is also the Atomic Clock rote from Mage. It allows you to pretty much build what you want, and have it work perfectly. You can always adapt the rote to allow a junked jet fighter to operate perfectly. Besides, it gives a great hook:

Stealing junky fighter planes from the Boneyard!

Now to head to Louie's for that drink...

Knaight
2012-12-04, 02:24 PM
You cannot simply overtake a commercial jet airliner with a biplane-they are too fast. The typical jet airliner cruises somewhere between 600 and 660 miles per hour-just short of the sound barrier. The Gloster Gladiator, sometimes regarded as the ultimate biplane fighter, only gets 253.

They also fly too high. The typical commercial flight is in the 30,000-40,000 foot range for most of the flight, with the capacity to go higher. The absolute maximum ever achieved with a propeller powered biplane that actually had a pilot was about 57,000 feet; this was achieved only briefly. The typical biplane, with a good but not extremely capable pilot? It's not going to be able to handle the altitude very well at all.

However, this leaves some obvious options. As previously pointed out, there are still commercial flights done by propeller planes, which are generally going to be less of a problem from both the altitude and speed problems. There are business flights, which have inviting targets for ransom. Then, for the big hauls, there's the matter of when the planes are going to be slower, lower, and assailable - takeoff and landing. With takeoff, forcing a landing via threat of shooting the plane down is entirely viable (particularly if one goes for less romanticized pirates who wouldn't have an issue with that). With landing, there is also the potential for fuel concerns, which could allow smaller aircraft to maintain a sort of blockade. It's a large operation by necessity, as it also requires being able to shut down nearby airfields to prevent someone from just shooting them down, but it is still an option.

Radar
2012-12-04, 03:31 PM
It all starts being viable if you dial the clock back to 1920-1930 (see Porco Rosso as a reference):
1. Biplanes are still a thing at that time.
2. There are no radars or trafic control.
3. Since 1., you can hijack a plane without jumping through hoops - simple jump from a plane would suffice.
4. Airfights don't end before you actually see your enemy.

Aside from other thechnical issues, piracy can only exist, when there is little to no control over the area. With current technology, we can track pretty much all high-altitude flights, so it's impossible to hide unless you have expensive military jets (which can be tracked as well with proper military radar systems). It also allows authorities to discover your airbase easily.

nedz
2012-12-04, 05:26 PM
Set it in the 1930s — have your biplanes intercept the Graf Zeppelin.

RandomLunatic
2012-12-04, 05:59 PM
Set it in the 1930s — have your biplanes intercept the Graf Zeppelin.That is the Crimson Skies setting in a nutshell.


They also fly too high. The typical commercial flight is in the 30,000-40,000 foot range for most of the flight, with the capacity to go higher. The absolute maximum ever achieved with a propeller powered biplane that actually had a pilot was about 57,000 feet; this was achieved only briefly. The typical biplane, with a good but not extremely capable pilot? It's not going to be able to handle the altitude very well at all.I considered that, but after doing the research, it turned out to be less of an issue than I thought-the aforementioned Gladiator has a ceiling of 34,000 feet, while the TA-152 (10 years later, and a monoplane, but still piston-engined) could almost hit 50,000.


However, this leaves some obvious options. As previously pointed out, there are still commercial flights done by propeller planes, which are generally going to be less of a problem from both the altitude and speed problems. There are business flights, which have inviting targets for ransom. Then, for the big hauls, there's the matter of when the planes are going to be slower, lower, and assailable - takeoff and landing. With takeoff, forcing a landing via threat of shooting the plane down is entirely viable (particularly if one goes for less romanticized pirates who wouldn't have an issue with that). With landing, there is also the potential for fuel concerns, which could allow smaller aircraft to maintain a sort of blockade. It's a large operation by necessity, as it also requires being able to shut down nearby airfields to prevent someone from just shooting them down, but it is still an option.The problem in hitting planes on takeoff and landing is that you have to do it near the airports, so after the second or third time you do it the authorities will start enacting countermeasures-if you can fly up and teleport a boarding party aboard, they can scramble a jet to come up and 'port a full SWAT team aboard. And that is if they do not see you coming because the airspace around airports is heavily monitored and regulated, so they will notice if you start violating the airspace for landing and takeoff corridors and blow you out of the sky with a SAM. There is a reason most high sea piracy occurs on the high seas and not in New York City harbor. And it is not just because the commute from Somalia to NYC is terrible.

And hijacking planes heading into land is a stupendously poor idea for another reason-in an effort to save money, airlines load jets with just enough fuel to get from A to B, plus a small margin of error. So if you capture it on the final approach, you will not have the gas to go anywhere with your ill-gotten gains.

Wardog
2012-12-04, 06:00 PM
Or mess around with the technological development.

Go for something like the Tales of the Ketty Jay series, where aircraft use aerium to provide lift (turning what would otherwise be a heavier-than-air aircraft into a lighter-than-air one). You should be able to catch up with the commercial airliner because it's a huge, unaerodynamic hulk, and if you shoot out its propellers/jets, it will just float* there on account of the aerium.

Of course, you now have to worry about bigger, badder pirates than you turning up with their flying aircraftcarrier/battleships...





* Unless its been rigged to explode, as part of a grand plot in which you are an unknowing pawn...

Knaight
2012-12-04, 06:24 PM
That is the Crimson Skies setting in a nutshell.

I considered that, but after doing the research, it turned out to be less of an issue than I thought-the aforementioned Gladiator has a ceiling of 34,000 feet, while the TA-152 (10 years later, and a monoplane, but still piston-engined) could almost hit 50,000.
...
And hijacking planes heading into land is a stupendously poor idea for another reason-in an effort to save money, airlines load jets with just enough fuel to get from A to B, plus a small margin of error. So if you capture it on the final approach, you will not have the gas to go anywhere with your ill-gotten gains.

However, it's the high end biplanes that can do that much, and commercial flights could easily be higher, and would be given things like sky piracy. The Gladiator simply wouldn't work due to altitude alone, though the TA-152 might. Still, I'd note that the ceilings listed are not altitudes that they can cruise at for extended periods of time easily, which is key.

As for the landing, I was assuming they were attempting to take the stuff on the plane. The small margin of error is actually helpful then, as you have to try and close down fewer landing strips that they could use (though the problems with being near airports persist, which is why I emphasized this being a huge undertaking that would take a lot of nerve and probably fail). If you're trying to take the plane itself, then you're going to have problems.

DoctorGlock
2012-12-04, 07:00 PM
The other question is "what is on the plane that is so valuable as to outweigh the costs of aircraft fuel and weapons?"

Piracy on the sea made sense, a galleon had years worth of loot

Railway robberies didn't require exorbitant costs of entry, so the relatively low yield of passenger loot was ok

If the plane is carrying say nuclear material, then it probably has major defenses and is not a good target. If it is a passenger plane, it is not worth hitting due to the costs.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-04, 10:40 PM
The other question is "what is on the plane that is so valuable as to outweigh the costs of aircraft fuel and weapons?"

Piracy on the sea made sense, a galleon had years worth of loot

Railway robberies didn't require exorbitant costs of entry, so the relatively low yield of passenger loot was ok

If the plane is carrying say nuclear material, then it probably has major defenses and is not a good target. If it is a passenger plane, it is not worth hitting due to the costs.

The idea was that they were not actually pirates, they would be trying to make a statement of some sort. I haven't decided on what exactly, but "hey, look, we're here beside you guys, so this thing ain't as safe as they said" crossed my minds.

So looks like it will be Komets with magnetic grapplers. Each "pirate" would have some kind of flying suit that would help him glide, maybe with a small jetpack or somesuch. Between that and their air elemental powers it shouldn't be too risky for them.

I thought about doing this for fuel but it sounds stupid. I like the idea, but I really can't see why someone would do it.

DoctorGlock
2012-12-04, 11:46 PM
The idea was that they were not actually pirates, they would be trying to make a statement of some sort. I haven't decided on what exactly, but "hey, look, we're here beside you guys, so this thing ain't as safe as they said" crossed my minds.

So looks like it will be Komets with magnetic grapplers. Each "pirate" would have some kind of flying suit that would help him glide, maybe with a small jetpack or somesuch. Between that and their air elemental powers it shouldn't be too risky for them.

I thought about doing this for fuel but it sounds stupid. I like the idea, but I really can't see why someone would do it.

For fuel isn't a bad idea actually. The game takes place in the future, use a new high tech future fuel: a non consumable power source, possibly a tech/supernatural fusion, very expensive and valuable but still in enough production for commercial purposes in the hands of large corporations.

Because of black market value it is a hot item for thieves and pirates alike. Pirates don't have the neofuel for the same reason terrorists and pirates today are still using old Soviet weapons and vehicles: modern stuff is expensive and regulated.

Now you have something worth stealing but commercial enough to not have a military guard as well as a reason for the pirates not to have it yet. They can also throw in an ideological statement about western decadence and capitalism or something when they attack the expensive planes. Covers all the bases.

I'm also imagining the pirates with a private jet converted to fire 30mm artillery pieces and painted black.

Anxe
2012-12-05, 01:31 AM
A kidnapping would also make sense. Maybe its the private plane of the CEO of Coca-Cola. Or maybe they're taking the plane itself. Planes are worth a lot of money, right? Then they sell it to some terrorists who want a plane that looks exactly like one of that country's commercial planes, so they can sneak their terrorists into the country. Lots of things they could want from hijacking a plane.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-05, 09:22 PM
I think I'll run with the power source idea. It creates a lot of hooks and will help me flesh out the setting.

I'm thinking on having the pirates being spanish and painting crosses on their Komets.