Shadowlord without Swordsage - how?

[Shin]

Hey there.

I recently took interest in the Telflammar Shadowlord prc, because I consider playing a shadowy figure and shadowlord seems to be the strongest option for that. After reading through several threads about the prc, it seems to me that the swordsage is key to the shadowlord. My problem right now is that my DM straightly forbid ToB at all, so no swordsage at all, either.

Are there other viable shadowlord builds which don't need the swordsage? I'd really appreciate your suggestions, because I have no idea of what fits with the lord. I'm ok with any classes and other prcs, so don't need rogue to start with. What I'm looking for is a proper build which benefits the shadowlords strengths (shadow jumping to fully (sneak) attack and that shadow grave thing, I guess) and makes my character a sneaky fighter.
Early access to shadowlord would be nice too, because I'd start at level 4.
Or should I just take another prc if I don't have access to swordsage?


EDIT:
I came up with a build now.
Optimization is not an option now, because it's going to be a roleplay heavy campaign, and if I can't do anything I should be able to do - hit sneak attack immune foes, for example - DM's rather not giving us such encounters often than allow me dragonfire strike/RAW penetrating strike.
He wants to keep the campaign at "low level", so we don't become super heroes.

I'd go for rogue3/fighter2/TFSL6 now. Lesser Tiefling. After that, I'd continue with avenger up to lvl 20.
I'd get some nifty rogue abilities, take and buy off the shadow walker template at lvl3, then take 2 of the 4 required TFSL feats with fighter dips (the other 2 with char lvl bonus feats, which we can gain every two levels).
At lvl 6, I'd finally go into TFSL (DM will lower the hide/move silently requirements from 10 to 8). Maybe he hands me out HiPS earlier, so that I don't have to wait until I get it with avenger.

I'd have a rogue with sneak attack who can cast darkness and gain his set darkness area several times a day now, gaining concealment and the opportunity to hide after hitting his enemies. Then he can shadow jump (or use dimension door) out of hide to sneak attack the next enemy. And as long as he sticks with that strategy, my shadow rogue won't be easily to kill (thanks to shadow discorporation).

How do you like it? (Of course it's non-optimized, and I can't use swordsage or ToB stuff either)

[Darrin]

Are there other viable shadowlord builds which don't need the swordsage?.

Yes.

Totemist 2 with the Blink Shirt soulmeld bound to the Totem Chakra can dimension door as either a standard or move action (but unfortunately not both in the same round).

A Mantled Psychic Warrior 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) with the Freedom Mantle can use dimension hop as a swift action.

A Shadowcaster using the flicker mystery can teleport as an immediate action.

And, of course, the Specialist Wizard ACF "abrupt jaunt" can be used Int bonus/day as an immediate action.



Early access to shadowlord would be nice too, because I'd start at level 4.
Or should I just take another prc if I don't have access to swordsage?

Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 (Shining South) also gets Shadow Pounce, and is somewhat easier to get into than Shadowlord.

[Kazyan]

"Teleportron the Abusive" actually pounces more often than a Swordsage. Talk to Snowbluff.

[gorfnab]

6 levels of Warlock gives you access to the invocation Flee the Scene (Dimension Door). If it wasn't so feat heavy an Eldritch Claw based Warlock - Shadowlord would be somewhat decent.

[Shin]

Did look for snowbluff's teleportron the abusive, and it uses swordsage. Well...
What I don't like about the crinti shadow marauder is that it's mount dependant.
About the warlock: Is it good or isn't it? Are the feats it does need worth it? My DM introduced a modified character progression system where we can have a maximum of up to 10 feats at lvl 20 (half of character level), so I could eat the feats.

Which other classes/prcs could I combine with the shadowlord? Our campaign will probably see high-end, which means that I need some content to fill the levels with.

[Flickerdart]

It's easy to get a swift action teleport in the shape of the psionic power dimension hop which you can get using Hidden Talent and then various ways of getting a larger power point pool. If you don't mind playing a caster that's a few spell levels behind, you can get Sneak Attack and teleporting spells off of Unseen Seer or (less ideally) Magelord. If you're absolutely desperate, Assassin gives you dimension door and Sneak Attack.

[eggs]

WarforgedHuman Rogue 3/Totemist 2/Psionic Assassin (Sarlona version) 7/Shadowlord 6/Psionic Assassin 2 could be pretty slick (feats: Hidden Talent: Dimension Hop, Multiattack Shadowlord prereqs, whatever else) - 8d6 sneak attack, Girallon arms for 3 extra attacks, 2 teleport-pounces per round, Death Attack DC 25+Int.

Edit: One more prereq feat than I remembered. Bleh.

[Darrin]

What I don't like about the crinti shadow marauder is that it's mount dependant.


Nope:

"Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor
(for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation."

Shadow Ride isn't required, just an option. You can just ignore your mount or leave it at home if you prefer.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've done well with rogue 1/totemist 2/cobra strike monk 2/umbral disciple 3/telflammar shadowlord 4/swiftblade 8 in the past. I've got the full build packed away somewhere and I can pull it up when I'm not posting from my phone, if you'd like.

Rogue 1/shadowcaster 7/assassin 1 makes a decent non-ToB Shadowcaster entry, by the way. Finish with either more levels in shadowcaster, or another level in Shadowlord and then arcane trickster (progressing your mysteries - requires a DM to count umbral hand as mage hand, or else a Hand of the Mage, to qualify). Flicker to shadowpounce as an immediate action every round, and make full attacks of touch attacks dealing 5d6 + sneak damage + slow thanks to Umbral Touch.

[ThiagoMartell]

The Jaunter prestige class from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is quite good for Shadowlords as well.

[Shin]

I came up with a build now.
Optimization is not an option now, because it's going to be a roleplay heavy campaign, and if I can't do anything I should be able to do - hit sneak attack immune foes, for example - DM's rather not giving us such encounters often than allow me dragonfire strike/RAW penetrating strike.
He wants to keep the campaign at "low level", so we don't become super heroes.

I'd go for rogue3/fighter2/TFSL6 now. Lesser Tiefling. After that, I'd continue with avenger up to lvl 20.
I'd get some nifty rogue abilities, take and buy off the shadow walker template at lvl3, then take 2 of the 4 required TFSL feats with fighter dips (the other 2 with char lvl bonus feats, which we can gain every two levels).
At lvl 6, I'd finally go into TFSL (DM will lower the hide/move silently requirements from 10 to 8). Maybe he hands me out HiPS earlier, so that I don't have to wait until I get it with avenger.

I'd have a rogue with sneak attack who can cast darkness and gain his set darkness area several times a day now, gaining concealment and the opportunity to hide after hitting his enemies. Then he can shadow jump (or use dimension door) out of hide to sneak attack the next enemy. And as long as he sticks with that strategy, my shadow rogue won't be easily to kill (thanks to shadow discorporation).

How do you like it? (It's of course non-optimized, and I can't use swordsage or ToB stuff either)

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I could have sworn that Telflammar Shadowlord's skill requirements meant that you needed to be at least level 7 prior to entry. Does the Shadow Walker template allow you to bypass the skill requirements? (I know it allows you to bypass several of the pre-reqs, I just don't remember which ones offhand.)

EDIT: Ignore this, just noticed that the DM agreed to drop the requirements from 10 ranks to 8. That's fine, then, although you could still look into UMDing wands of knight's move for swift action teleportation fun.

[Shin]

The only thing the template does for you is let you take the first option of the requirement: "You have to either have the template or be able to use dimension door as a spell or spell-like ability".
The shadow-walker template now sounds like a good option to me. I hope that I'm right.

The UMD option sounds good too. I'll try to get that wand in game. However, the build would give me enough shadow jumps and dimension doors to handle the one or two daily encounters we face each now and then.

Is the build worth it if you don't have to optimize?