A bored wizards' guild (PF thought experiment)

[Razanir]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263062). The idea is– If you have a really smart, really bored wizards' guild, how much of the rules could they determine by experimentation? Well I'm gonna find out. Here in the city of Guildopolis, we have an esteemed wizards' guild, a sorcerers' club that they call a guild, one of the largest temples in the campaign setting and a run-of-the-mill town guard. (There are other guilds, but they aren't helping) Point is, these wizards have decided to work together with the sorcerers to discover the laws of the universe. Helping in this quest is the temple, offering free healing for any magical mishaps, and the town guard who has nothing better to do.

Summary so far:
Strength = Str - 10 (They used the average as a baseline)
Grace = Dex mod (No way to distinguish Dex 10 and 11)
Endurance = Con
Skill = BAB (Only know of 1/1)
Armor and shield bonuses
Distances measured in 1 step = 5 ft
Times measured in 1 tick = 6 sec
Base speeds
"Endurance factor" = Run feat
Spell Difficulty = Level + 1
Spells per day
Bonus spells
Professions = Classes
Clerical skill = Caster level for clerics (and druids)
Arcane skill = Caster level for wizards and sorcerers
Arcane aptitude = Int/Cha - 9
Spirit = Wis - 9

[Razanir]

Housekeeping stuff I forgot in the OP:
-I'd prefer people not post with discoveries, but feel free to comment about them.
-The OP will be a database of what rules they're discovered so far
-I'll try to post more discoveries every few days

Test I: Different members of the guard can run at different speeds. Measure speed, varying armor, encumbrance and race.
Observations: Some races are inherently faster. Heavier armor slows you down. Different people can carry different amounts of gear.
New laws: 5-foot rule, base speed, encumbrance, strength

Test II: How long can you run?
New laws: "Endurance"

Test III: We called it strength. Does this also affect hitting stuff? Watch the guard trainees practicing fighting.
Observations: Some people are harder to hit than others. Different armor makes you easier or harder to hit
New laws: Armor and shield bonuses. "Dodge"

Test IV: Expand to archery and bring in more experienced guard members
Observations: More experienced members have an easier time hitting people when everything else is the same. Dodge seems to affect archery like strength does with swordfighting
New laws: Skill
Adapted laws: Dodge is renamed grace

Summary so far:
Strength = Str - 10 (They used the average as a baseline)
Grace = Dex mod (No way to distinguish Dex 10 and 11)
Endurance = Con
Skill = BAB (Only know of 1/1)
Armor and shield bonuses
Distances measured in 1 step = 5 ft
Times measured in 1 tick = 6 sec
Base speeds
"Endurance factor" = Run feat

[Razanir]

Test V: Clerics, wizards and sorcerers all agree that some spells are easier to cast than others.
New laws: Spell difficulty = Spell level + 1 (Levels 1-10 not 0-9)

Test VI: All the sorcerers know the same numbers of spells.
New laws: Magical skill = caster level. The older version of skill (Full BAB) is renamed fighting skill.

Aftermath of test VI: Magical skill * .5 = fighting skill. By performing tests for fighting skill on themselves, the wizards extrapolated their own magical skill.
New laws: Formula for magical skill. Note that it gets an incorrect answer for clerics (and druids)!

Test VII: Even if they have enough magic skill to cast a spell of a certain difficulty, not all sorcerers can cast the spells. Wizards and clerics agree with this. Even if they understand how to cast some spells, doesn't mean they can.
New laws: Magic aptitude = Int/Wis/Cha - 9 (Note that they haven't distinguished the three yet)

Summary:
Spell Difficulty = Level + 1
Magical skill = (1/2 BAB) * 2 (sometimes +1)
Magic aptitude = Casting ability - 9

[Malimar]

It has occurred to me that a society that has mages as any kind of important influence at all would be very likely to use 5' lines/squares/cubes as a basic unit of measurement, because so many spells come in multiples of that.

This was originally me trying to come up with an excuse to always refer to squares and entirely excise feet from my game (I hate counting by 5s, because I'm a little peculiar), but it could certainly be an additional justification for the "one step = 5 feet" thing, perhaps expanded to "5 feet is the fundamental unit of measurement".


Relatedly: I'd like to point out that sufficiently detailed experimentation should eventually reveal that movement in a straight line is a slightly different speed than movement at a 45° angle (which direction is "straight" and which is "at an angle" may tend to vary from location to location) -- or, put another way, straight lines on the floor are a slightly different length from diagonal lines of equal length. (Which has a whole host of fascinating implications for geometry and the non-Euclidean-ness thereof.)

[Malroth]

Experiment, Some characters are more susceptible to spells of a given type than others Paticularly they'd find that there was a direct Correlation between Magical aptitude and resistance to mind affecting spells but only for clerics and druids. Wizards and Sorcerers would show no correlation between resistance to a sample spell like charm person and their magical apitude.

[Forrestfire]

Relatedly: I'd like to point out that sufficiently detailed experimentation should eventually reveal that movement in a straight line is a slightly different speed than movement at a 45° angle (which direction is "straight" and which is "at an angle" may tend to vary from location to location) -- or, put another way, straight lines on the floor are a slightly different length from diagonal lines of equal length. (Which has a whole host of fascinating implications for geometry and the non-Euclidean-ness thereof.)

Not only that, but a diagonal line's length grows at an alternating rate depending on how far you measure.

A diagonal line drawn through a 5-foot square has a length of 5 feet, a diagonal line drawn through a ten-foot square has a length of 15 feet, and a diagonal line drawn through a fifteen-foot square has a length of 20 feet.

{table=head]Dimensions of Square|Real Value|D&D Value
0|0|0
5|7.07|5
10|14.14|15
15|21.21|20
20|28.28|30
25|35.36|35
30|42.43|45
35|49.50|50
40|56.57|60
45|63.64|65
50|70.71|75
55|77.78|80[/table]

Walking must be really disorienting in a world like that.

[Story]

I wonder if they'd try to invent a spell that makes you walk in lots of short steps instead of a single movement so that you can travel on diagonals faster.

[ahenobarbi]

Experiment with Planar Binding, Plannar Ally, Sleep, Fear and the likes to find about HD.
Find correlation between casters HD and spells they can cast (create table of what spells can people can cast and how many HD they have).
Experiment with Power Word X spells to learn about HP.

[Razanir]

Note: Feel free to post ideas of your own, but realize that I may not include them at first. Also, I've decided to call them experiments if they're actually setting stuff up and actively changing variables, and studies if it's really just a survey. And yes, I realize that's an arbitrary and blurry line. Know what? I'm just gonna start calling everything tests.

Test VIII: Everyone agrees that they can only cast so many spells of each difficulty per day. Furthermore, casters of two different aptitudes can cast consistent amounts of spells more than each other.
Results: Spells per day for sorcerers, wizards and clerics. Bonus spells by ability score

Test IX: Wait a minute... A clerics' magical skill is different depending on if it's calculated from fighting skill or from spells per day.
Results: Divine or clerical skill. Magical skill is renamed arcane skill.

Test X: Let's analyze spells, starting with how tough they are to resist. Results were all over the place, but seem to be based on the caster's experience and aptitude and the target's experience and profession. A notable trend was that between a wizard/sorcerer and a cleric of the same level and aptitude, the cleric was constantly better at resisting, shrugging off aptitude*2.5% more spells
Results: Magical aptitude for clerics helps resist mind-affecting spells. Let's name it spirit, and rename magical aptitude arcane aptitude.

Test XI: Ya know? All the people with the same profession in life (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, fighter, etc.) seem to be affected by stuff the same way...
Results: Professions (classes)

Summary:
Spells per day
Bonus spells
Professions = Classes
Clerical skill = Caster level for clerics (and druids)
Arcane skill = Caster level for wizards and sorcerers
Arcane aptitude = Int/Cha - 9
Spirit = Wis - 9

OOC: Currently working on figuring out if they'd be able to discover Will = Base Will + Wis Mod, and DC = 10 + CL + Int/Wis/Cha Mod

[qwertyu63]

Arcane aptitude = Int/Cha - 9

They be able to split those if they notice that persuasiveness goes up with Arcane Aptitude, but only for Sorcerers.

Other side note, they might notice that among the guard some take slightly more hits to go down, even though all else is equal. Then notice that those who went down with more hits can also run farther. It's small, but they might catch Con there.

DISCLAIMER: I only play 3.5, so if I screw up PF terms sorry.

[limejuicepowder]

Not only that, but a diagonal line's length grows at an alternating rate depending on how far you measure.

A diagonal line drawn through a 5-foot square has a length of 5 feet, a diagonal line drawn through a ten-foot square has a length of 15 feet, and a diagonal line drawn through a fifteen-foot square has a length of 20 feet.

{table=head]Dimensions of Square|Real Value|D&D Value
0|0|0
5|7.07|5
10|14.14|15
15|21.21|20
20|28.28|30
25|35.36|35
30|42.43|45
35|49.50|50
40|56.57|60
45|63.64|65
50|70.71|75
55|77.78|80[/table]

Walking must be really disorienting in a world like that.

Unfortunately it gets more complicated than that, because of this: what's diagonal?

The players of the game know what diagonal because of the battle grid, which the characters in the game don't have. So how is the grid oriented? an easy, but still arbitrary, way is to assume north/south/east/west.

Here's the mind bender though: the inside of buildings always have a perfect grid, implying that all of the building's walls are build along a line on the grid. But what happens when you leave the building? Unless every single structure is built with parallel and perpendicular walls to each other, opposed buildings would "generate" conflicting grids outside the door.

[Forrestfire]

Unfortunately it gets more complicated than that, because of this: what's diagonal?

The players of the game know what diagonal because of the battle grid, which the characters in the game don't have. So how is the grid oriented? an easy, but still arbitrary, way is to assume north/south/east/west.

Here's the mind bender though: the inside of buildings always have a perfect grid, implying that all of the building's walls are build along a line on the grid. But what happens when you leave the building? Unless every single structure is built with parallel and perpendicular walls to each other, opposed buildings would "generate" conflicting grids outside the door.

Well, in the actual game world, wouldn't diagonal be arbitrary? I mean, if someone is moving in a straight line, they are moving forward, but the moment someone thinks of the world as a grid, their movement would change depending on the direction they take.

Distances being mutable based on a person's perception of the world makes for some weird physics. I could see wizard guilds having tile floors just to prove this phenomenon. :smalltongue:

[Razanir]

DISCLAIMER: I only play 3.5, so if I screw up PF terms sorry.

It's more or less the same. The only changes I can think of are Stealth = Move Silently + Hide, Perception = Listen + Search + Spot, Acrobatics = Jump + Tumble, and the addition of CMB and CMD. (I know there are other mechanical changes, but terminology is mostly constant)


Distances being mutable based on a person's perception of the world makes for some weird physics. I could see wizard guilds having tile floors just to prove this phenomenon. :smalltongue:

Why does this somehow make sense by not making sense?

[Story]

Test IX: Wait a minute... A clerics' magical skill is different depending on if it's calculated from fighting skill or from spells per day.
Results: Divine or clerical skill. Magical skill is renamed arcane skill.

Test X: Let's analyze spells, starting with how tough they are to resist. Results were all over the place, but seem to be based on the caster's experience and aptitude and the target's experience and profession. A notable trend was that between a wizard/sorcerer and a cleric of the same level and aptitude, the cleric was constantly better at resisting, shrugging off aptitude*2.5% more spells
Results: Magical aptitude for clerics helps resist mind-affecting spells. Let's name it spirit, and rename magical aptitude arcane aptitude.

Test XI: Ya know? All the people with the same profession in life (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, fighter, etc.) seem to be affected by stuff the same way...
Results: Professions (classes)

Summary:
Spells per day
Bonus spells
Professions = Classes
Clerical skill = Caster level for clerics (and druids)
Arcane skill = Caster level for wizards and sorcerers
Arcane aptitude = Int/Cha - 9
Spirit = Wis - 9

OOC: Currently working on figuring out if they'd be able to discover Will = Base Will + Wis Mod, and DC = 10 + CL + Int/Wis/Cha Mod

They might have trouble with Prcs here. People at the same level, ability scores, and race who could reasonably both consider themselves wizards might still have wildly varying saves, as well as different Caster Levels, different spells known, etc.

Of course they could start by looking at low level wizards who are highly unlikely to have prced, and then notice that variation in abilities starts increasing dramatically at higher levels.

[Razanir]

They might have trouble with Prcs here. People at the same level, ability scores, and race who could reasonably both consider themselves wizards might still have wildly varying saves, as well as different Caster Levels, different spells known, etc.

Of course they could start by looking at low level wizards who are highly unlikely to have prced, and then notice that variation in abilities starts increasing dramatically at higher levels.

Yeah... I'm kinda operating on an assumption that people don't multiclass. That'll be a wrench I throw at them later. But for now, no multiclassing and therefore no prcs

[limejuicepowder]

Diagonal being arbitrary is my point; to actually have a grid it has to be in SOME direction but WHAT direction doesn't matter, as long as it's someway (i.e, it can't just change with the person's facing). And no matter which way it is, conundrums are going to be created going in and out of buildings, as detailed above.

As far as identify class levels: that's going to be uber-hard, because of the number of variables and overlap involved. For example, a 1st level fighter with 10 con and a 1 level rogue with 14 con has the exact same chance to succeed on a fort save. Who's to say the low-con scrappy fighter isn't a rogue, and the brutish rogue isn't a fighter? It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish. In fact, as long as the rogue has 4 more points of con, 2 more points of str, and 12 less points of int, their is absolutely no way to tell the two apart (the rogue's int probably wouldn't have to be that low to make the skills almost the same either, if you played around with the abilities some more).

Spell casters would be slightly easier because of the progression of spells (assuming they always took the highest level spells available). Even then though, different classes with overlapping spell lists would be very hard to tell apart.