Unleash the Power gamers and Min-maxers

[Enochi]

Hello all I have a new campaign coming up starting at level 2 and it seems the DM wants us to go all out in Character creation. We have access to All books magazines the works excepting only psionics. I was thinking a DFA mongrelfolk dragonborn or a Dvati dragonborn but I am open to any other suggestions. Currently the Party has a Rogue and a Paladin. We are going to be chucked right into the front lines of a war so we need to be able to survive. He also said we can run Homebrew by him as well. So ye min-maxers and power-gamers I unless the and say HAVE at it.

BTW my rolled stats are 18,16,15,13,12,9

[Kelb_Panthera]

The folks here can, and if you ask nicely will, help you optimize the living daylights out of any character concept you could think to put foward, but we'll need more than just a tentative race/class combo to work from.

[eggs]

If you're considering Dvati, we might need the specs on how they interact with Dragonborn (what they keep, what they lose) and how their actions per round interact with the DFA.

The race is poorly documented, so both of those are areas where the rules either aren't specified (how do Dvati actions and initiatives work - especially with Invocation use and breath weapon recharges) or don't make a whole lot of sense without houserules (RAW, a pair of Dvati twins turn into a single Dragonborn creature; if Dvati stay separate, there's a question of which of their traits should be treated as a part of the split soul deal, and which should be lost in the ritual), so your table's implementation matters quite a bit.

If Dragonborn Dvati keep the two bodies, get two sets of actions each round, and can use two invocations and/or breath weapons each turn, that's a very powerful setup, and if you're cranking Constitution for DFA, survivability shouldn't be too bad.

[Enochi]

Sorry if I came off rude or demanding was trying to go for comedic. Umm
I have never really played in a "High-power" Campaign before so I don't know really what I should focus on. I tend to go for Melee type characters mostly or Summoners. However I tend to get really really bad rolls so I try to avoid making attack rolls if possible so I though Hey DFA looks great its pretty SAD and since it pretty much uses breath weapons as its primary attack i dont have to worry about attack rolls.

From what I have been told we have no real allignment restrictions or anything of that nature so really Sky is the limit.

[Enochi]

If you're considering Dvati, we might need the specs on how they interact with Dragonborn (what they keep, what they lose) and how their actions per round interact with the DFA. The race is really poorly documented, and what it does alters pretty drastically from game to game.

Both of those are areas where the rules either aren't specified (how do Dvati actions and initiatives work - especially with Invocation use and breath weapon recharges) or don't make a whole lot of sense without houserules (RAW, a pair of Dvati twins turn into a single Dragonborn creature; if Dvati stay separate, there's a question of which of their traits should be treated as a part of the split soul deal, and which should be lost in the ritual), so your table's implementation matters quite a bit.

If Dragonborn Dvati keep the two bodies, get two sets of actions each round, and can use two invocations and/or breath weapons each turn, that's a very powerful setup, and if you're cranking Constitution for DFA, survivability shouldn't be too bad.

Hmm I didn't think about that. I'll ask my DM about that for now lets assume I keep the 2 bodies and have to keep track of breath rounds with each body but can only cast 1 spell a round.

[Morbis Meh]

Have you ever considered the Dread Necro from heroes of horror? At lower levels they are not to bad in melee and at higher level can do some decent horde keeping. They come in with built in healing if you take tomb tainted soul they are also pretty SAD.

[Enochi]

Umm I have never been a fan of undead... just too creepy. But thank you for the suggestion please keep them coming.

[Marthinwurer]

If attack rolls have been lacking, go mailman. Nothing stops the mailman.

[Fable Wright]

If you really don't want to roll dice, spellcasters can be really powerful.

If you want a build that's powerful from levels 1-20 and don't mind going melee, Duskblade 3/Human Paragon 2/Ur-Priest 2/Geometer 8/Suel Arcanamach 1/Geometer +2/Suel Arcanamach +2 would work well, if you can snag the Deceptive Illumination (Drow of the Underdark) feat at level 1. At low levels, you can battlefield control extremely well with Silent Image (from Deceptive Illumination) and Color Spray, and Silent Image is very good for hiding/staying alive in warzones. Starting at level 3, you become an offensive powerhouse with Arcane Channeling and Knowledge Devotion coming online, and after that you go into Ur-Priest for the raw power of cleric casting.

[Snowbluff]

Well, I'll just toss a couple things out.

Mailman. It's good. Even if you don't want to blast, the general build is damn good.

Cheatiest Build. Archivist/AnimaMage(With a divine adaptation)/TenebrousApostate. Tenebrous vestige grants Turning once per five rounds, which most read as "you get a number of turn attempts", which can fuel Divine Feats indefinitely. Use Bind Vestige feat for entry into Anima Mage. Anima Mage and Apostate give you binder levels, without requiring any. It's weird.

Sorc3/AnimaMage. The same things as above, but without divine feats. Has Cha synergy.

Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5. A gishy build. Ay level 15 you get an extra Standard per round. Pretty powerful.

[Enochi]

All really great builds I thank you for your help.

However the DM toying with the idea about running without full true casters(wiz, sorc, druid, cleric, etc).

Are they any ideas for something meeting this new requirement.

[Snowbluff]

Duskblade can be a pretty sweet option. 5/9 casting. Hit level 13 then PrC out. Poison Spell (get a Sea Snake familiar with Ability Focus: Poison, it'll use your HD for the save.)

Factotum8/Iaijutsu Master5 can be very strong.

Be a Bard. Possibly Bard4/CrusaderX/(PrC that grants Dual Song/Combine song)
Feats: Dragonfire Inpsiration(DM?), Song of the Heart(Ebb), Words of Creation(BoED), Snowflake Wardance.
Items: Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, Slippers of Battledance, Crystal Echoblade (Works best with straight Bard), Badge of Valor, Bard's Vest.

Pump Cha. Possibly become Unseelie Fey/Magic Blooded

Combine Songs DFI and Inspire Courage. Use Words of Creation to double the bonus. If you are Crusader, provide other buffs.

Other feat choices:
TWF: You have such huge damage bonuses, why not?
Ascetic Mage(CAd?): Cha to AC while not wearing armor. Require Monk. Works great with Arcane Preparation so you can cast Luminous Armor.
Power Attack: Huge bonus to hit? Say huge bonus to damage.
Stone Power(ToB): Same deal as about, but makes you tough.
Eilservs School(DotU_: Bonus to damage and attacks while fighting with magic staff. Hit with both end to release a spell as swift action.

[Slipperychicken]

Bard.

If you want to have dragon ancestry, you can do Inspire Courage Bard, or even DFI (sub for the least-resisted energy type you can swing. Acid or ideally Force), especially with War Drums (give bonuses for miles out). Give bonuses tohit and damage for the whole army? DFI for making the entire army add 2-3d6 energy damage to every swing? Your commanders will love you in this war, since all their boys will start one-shotting the enemy like pros. You'll also be the most popular man in the army. See if you can get some guys under your command. This would be gravy on top of any attack-spammer builds you might have in the party.

Is your DM okay with Diplomancy cheese? Well, he shouldn't be. If he is that stupid, we could probably get chunks of the opposing army to turn a full 180 and start fighting for you because of your epic skills (only need to hit DC 50, then bump up to Fanatic with an exploit involving Harmonicas. It might take a few more levels but c'est la vie). What flavors of cheese is the DM willing to tolerate?

[Enochi]

I am really digging the bard idea can I get a complete build for that. Maybe going the leadership route so I can always have mooks to empower?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Edit: Here's an extremely fun Bard build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4) for debuffing enemies instead of powering allies, if you're still interested after reading below.

Dragonborn Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) Crusader. Gaining Mineral Warrior after Dragonborn means you get to keep everything it grants. Go with the Heart aspect from Dragonborn for the breath attack, and take two traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) (Plucky and Quick). Take two flaws (Bravado and No Time For Book Learnin' (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)) and start with Entangling Exhalation, Extra Granted Maneuver, and Recover Breath. Use Martial Spirit, and the only 1st level maneuver you don't know should be Stone Bones. Use a one-handed weapon and a shield, and wear the heaviest armor you can afford. You want to use your breath attack to keep as many opponents entangled as humanly possible, use a strike whenever you can't breathe, and use Crusader Strike any time you or anyone else is hurt.

You'll want to buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA as soon as you hit ECL 4. Pick up a +1 weapon, and take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd level. You'll get the +10% bonus to your current xp from Item Familiar just before you spend the xp to buy off your level adjustment. As soon as you can afford it upgrade your weapon yourself to give it the Wrathful Healing property in Enemies and Allies (p20). It costs a +3 and requires a casting of Regenerate, but it makes it so you're healed for half the total damage you deal, including extra damage from Str, Power Attack, and martial strikes. Note that as an intelligent item your weapon is considered a construct, and constructs cannot be dispelled or disjoined and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. Wear a lock gauntlet so it can't be stolen, or just make it a spiked gauntlet for style points since most of your damage will come from breath attacks early and strikes later.

[Enochi]

Decided to Mess around with the Bard idea a bit

Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Skill Focus: Perform (Flaw)
1: Nymph's Kiss (Flaw)
3: Song of the Heart
6: Leadership
9: Words of Creation
12: Snowflake Wardance

Bard 10/Seeker of Song 2/X 8

Probably could be optimized more but this is what I have got so far.

With Badge of Valor and Inspirational Boost I can give all my Allie 3d6 fire damage. I cant really figure out a way to make it force.

My starting Preform check will be +15.

[Deophaun]

Trade out Skill Focus: Perform for Draconic Heritage: Force to get force damage.

Edit: Forgot that you can't do that without taking the dragontouched feat so that you can meet the sorcerer requirement. So n/m if you're already starting out as a silverbrow human.

[Socratov]

Decided to Mess around with the Bard idea a bit

Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Skill Focus: Perform (Flaw)
1: Nymph's Kiss (Flaw)
3: Song of the Heart
6: Leadership
9: Words of Creation
12: Snowflake Wardance

Bard 10/Seeker of Song 2/X 8

Probably could be optimized more but this is what I have got so far.

With Badge of Valor and Inspirational Boost I can give all my Allie 3d6 fire damage. I cant really figure out a way to make it force.

My starting Preform check will be +15.

make it sonic through a template since sonic is hard to resist and works so well on chrystalline creatures (double damage?). (and little to no creatures resist sonics).

Seeker of the song isn't really that good. go virtuoso or if you can debate it (since the bard chassis isn't really a hard caster) get Sublime Chord. Now you can be a wizard and a bard. Another thing, bust out Eberron Campaign setting and look up the section where it says trading away songs for feats. most of them suck, except for the suggestion song which you can trade for Song of the heart. get Words of creation next. now you give 6d6. But wait, there is more, if you trade fascinate away you can get Healing hymn from CompChamp (or divine, not sure), very useful. but wait there is more, be chaotic good and get the feat Chaos Music. any HD you have that are not straight up bard advance bardic music as bard. Another 1d6 (with WoC 2). buy a vest of legends and get the same effect for even more d6(+2, or with WoC +4). but it isn't over yet, if you look in song and silence you will find a masterwork horn (make it an alpine for the extra range) to lose the bonus against fear for another 1d6 (again, 2 with WoC). Now you are the true harbinger of destruction. any group of randoms can now inflict massive amounts of damage. so what else can you do? If you have room for non-bard HD, get 1 level of warlock for beguiling influence. You have now gained a 1d6 EB, but with lingering song you can apply DFI on it (touch attack ftw!) and +6 to all social skills. You can lie, cheat, talk and threathen like none other, but wait even here there is mroe to take. how about (if you still haven't filled the chaosmusic +4 HD limit) you take 1 level of marshall for the minor aura. apply it to Cha and you get your CHA on Cha skills twice in total. the warlock and marshall levels should come out of bard, not virtuoso or sublime chord (it shoudl look something like this: bard 6/warlock/marshall/virtuoso 2/sublime shord 2/virtuoso 8 (away from books atm so can someone please check for legality?)

If spells are out, get either full virtuoso or something else that advances IC (warchanter for it's capstone? can't check for the advancing IC part) making you a bard 8/warlock/marshall/something else 10 And don't forget to take glibness. Between social skills and DFI you are now the bard everybody wants you to be (16d6 sonic damage boost? without synergy social skills of (assuming 22 cha) +41 on roll). Oh, and before I forget, get on a horse :smallcool:

[Sith_Happens]

Decided to Mess around with the Bard idea a bit

Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Skill Focus: Perform (Flaw)
1: Nymph's Kiss (Flaw)
3: Song of the Heart
6: Leadership
9: Words of Creation
12: Snowflake Wardance

Bard 10/Seeker of Song 2/X 8

Probably could be optimized more but this is what I have got so far.

Replace Skill Focus with Lingering Song (CAd), which causes your Bardic Music effects to last for a minute after you stop performing. I'm pretty sure that lets you start another song on your next turn and have both going at the same time (i.e.- DFI + IC), in which case you don't need Seeker of the Song.

Going Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 gets you 9th level spells and (almost) full Inspire Courage. It'll tank your BaB, but you have Snowflake Wardance anyways. You do need Skill Focus to qualify for Virtuoso, so either ignore the bit above about Lingering Song (get a Harmonic weapon (MiC) instead) or pick a different feat to drop.


With Badge of Valor and Inspirational Boost I can give all my Allie 3d6 fire damage. I cant really figure out a way to make it force.

A Sorcerer dip for Draconic Heritage can make it sonic, which is the next best thing.

EDIT: Swordsage'd(-ish) on all points.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bard 8/ Sorcerer 1/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8, use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level to get Draconic Heritage for sonic damage, cast Creaking Cacophony.

[Socratov]

Replace Skill Focus with Lingering Song (CAd), which causes your Bardic Music effects to last for a minute after you stop performing. I'm pretty sure that lets you start another song on your next turn and have both going at the same time (i.e.- DFI + IC), in which case you don't need Seeker of the Song.

Going Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 gets you 9th level spells and (almost) full Inspire Courage. It'll tank your BaB, but you have Snowflake Wardance anyways. You do need Skill Focus to qualify for Virtuoso, so either ignore the bit above about Lingering Song (get a Harmonic weapon (MiC) instead) or pick a different feat to drop.



A Sorcerer dip for Draconic Heritage can make it sonic, which is the next best thing.

EDIT: Swordsage'd(-ish) on all points.

Well, you know, it's a build (or chassis) I have almost completely committed to meory since it solves about 67% of all questions regarding bard.

Also, don't take leadership, it slows down the game horribly, take lingering song instead (or the skill focus perform). Oh and lingering song indeed allows you to start IC and DFI on consecutive turns and stacking them (no double bonuses). Also, BAB? Who needs BAB when you have IC active?

The only thing leadership is good for is crafting and building an army of bagpipe bards to troll everybody. And that is risky since it will probably encourage peopel to smack you with books until you forget hte feat/classfeature/whatever Leadership. Besides, crank your diplomacy up enough and you get followers for free (remember, from hostile to fanatic in only 50 diplomacy, and My build almost does that automatically (you need to roll a 9 or higher which gives you 60% chance to succeed on enemies, almost auto success on not enemies))

yes it's cheesy. yes your DM will hate you for it. yes you will need to pick up dodge for DMG's

[Enochi]

So Looking at something like this now

Bard 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 7/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Lingering Song (Flaw)
1: Nymph's Kiss (Flaw)
3: Skill Focus: Perform
6: Words of Creation
9: ?
12: Snowflake Wardance
15: ?
18: ?

Bard Substitutions:
1: Healing hymn
3: ?Inspire comp for Song of the Heart?

Sorc Sub:
1: Dragon Blooded Sorc

Thoughts changes?

Edit:.....reading through song and silence and just had the thought of my bard on the back of a cart with a giant pipe-organ....

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Song of the Heart at Bard 6 instead of Suggestion, per the Bard class variant in ECS. I'd put the Sorcerer level a bit later, you want 1st level spells asap for Inspirational Boost.

[nedz]

Taking a level of Sorcerer is probably a mistake since it delays your main casting by a level. Bard spell progression is painfully slow anyway.

[Snowbluff]

Wow. Glad to see my Bard idea is going so well. Well, nothing to do here now!

[Enochi]

Change up

Bard 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Dragon Heritage: Sonic (Flaw)
1: Dragontouched (Flaw)
3: Lingering Song
6: Words of Creation
9: Skill Focus: Perform
12: Snowflake Wardance
15: ?
18: ?

Bard Substitutions:
1: Healing hymn
6: Suggestion for Song of the Heart

2000 gp for Starting items:

Badge of Valor
?Alphorn?
Any other important gear?

[Snowbluff]

You're forgetting Bard's Vest(ments?), Slippers of Battledance and Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows.

[Enochi]

You're forgetting Bard's Vest(ments?), Slippers of Battledance and Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows.

Yes those are very nice but I start at level 2. So I only have a 2k gold limit right now.

[Enochi]

Alternate build


Bard 7/Sorcerer 1/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

CG Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Lingering Song (Flaw)
1: Nymph's Kiss (Flaw)
3: Chaos Music
6: Words of Creation
9: Skill Focus: Perform
12: Snowflake Wardance
15: ?
18: ?

Bard Substitutions:
1: Healing hymn
6: Suggestion for Song of the Heart

Sorcerer Substitution:
1: Dragon blooded.

2000 gp for Starting items:

Badge of Valor
?Alphorn?
Any other important gear?

[Snowbluff]

Alchemist's Fire, then. Never leave home without it.

[Magesmiley]

Assuming that your DM is allowing Savage Species and flaws from Unearthed Arcana, one 'durable' route you might consider is a dwarf or mongrelfolk with a 20+ CON and 4/- DR. Toss your highest stat into CON and let the racial mod get it to 20+. Take 2 flaws (for a total of 3 feats at level 1), then toughness (prerequisite) and Roll With It (from Savage Species) x2. If you take warblade or something with a D12, you get 20 hp at 1st level to go with the 4/- DR.

[Enochi]

I had considered making a Mongelfolk Half-minotaur dragonborn which would have had with a base 18 con +4 +2 +4 +2 = 30 con if I understand the template right. Which with a d12 hit die would be 22 hp before any other adjustments.

[kestrel404]

Here is a shopping list for when you get more money:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

Also, you are a Cha-based buff build - you should be taking Leadership at level 6.

If you're considering alternate builds, I've got some REALLY nasty ones that start out mean and get worse from there.

For example, if you take a Fire Gnome (LA +1 gnome, immune to fire) and give him the Troll Blooded feat (Regen 1, except fire and acid damage), you can get a 1st level character who takes subdual damage from everything except acid, meaning you're nearly impossible to kill. And there are various ways to become immune to subdual damage through class levels...

My favorite trick with Dvati is Shadow Pounce - after a teleport effect, you can make a full attack. There are a number of ways to get at-will teleport abilities (like Shape Soulmeld-Blink Shirt, which gives you at-will standard action (SU) teleports all day for 1 feat). The trick? By RAW both sets of bodies get their full attack when either teleports. Works best with Telflammar Shadowlord (Shining South, FR), as they also get sneak attack.

I've got a few other nasty ones, but those are my favorites for sheer cheesiness.

[Snowbluff]

DB Teleportron the Abusive: Duskblade13/Rogue3/Teflammar Shadowblade4

Pick up Dimension Hop, Arcane Thesis it. Quicken, Twin, and Repeat would be good here. Practical MM would help as well.

Uber Damage: Full attack channel, then teleport with a quickened dimension hop for another full attack of damage.

Stand is Teleportation as well. Might not be useable for this build, though. As your DM.

[Enochi]

Here is a shopping list for when you get more money:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

Also, you are a Cha-based buff build - you should be taking Leadership at level 6.

If you're considering alternate builds, I've got some REALLY nasty ones that start out mean and get worse from there.

For example, if you take a Fire Gnome (LA +1 gnome, immune to fire) and give him the Troll Blooded feat (Regen 1, except fire and acid damage), you can get a 1st level character who takes subdual damage from everything except acid, meaning you're nearly impossible to kill. And there are various ways to become immune to subdual damage through class levels...

My favorite trick with Dvati is Shadow Pounce - after a teleport effect, you can make a full attack. There are a number of ways to get at-will teleport abilities (like Shape Soulmeld-Blink Shirt, which gives you at-will standard action (SU) teleports all day for 1 feat). The trick? By RAW both sets of bodies get their full attack when either teleports. Works best with Telflammar Shadowlord (Shining South, FR), as they also get sneak attack.

I've got a few other nasty ones, but those are my favorites for sheer cheesiness.

Hmm one saying take leadership another saying don't. Also would Item familar be worth picking up at level 3 and shifting some feats around?

[kestrel404]

Hmm one saying take leadership another saying don't. Also would Item familar be worth picking up at level 3 and shifting some feats around?

Item familiars get you 3 things, all of which are nice.
+10% XP. This is kind of broken. It may also earn you the enmity of all of your fellow players, unless they also take item familiar. That said, if everyone has one, it is not completely broken.

2x skill advancement in one skill. Technically you can do more than once skill, however this is generally not worthwhile. Of course, there are few skills worth doing this for anyway, but it's ridiculously broken if you build your character around a specific skill (like Truespeech or Iaijutsu focus).

An extra spell slot, two levels below your highest. Meh.

Also, the reason I say leadership is because, as a bard with 'grant all my allies +Xd6 fire damage', you can have flaming armies of mostly naked barbarians. Male, amazon or mixed, depending on tastes.

[Enochi]

DB Teleportron the Abusive: Duskblade13/Rogue3/Teflammar Shadowblade4

Pick up Dimension Hop, Arcane Thesis it. Quicken, Twin, and Repeat would be good here. Practical MM would help as well.

Uber Damage: Full attack channel, then teleport with a quickened dimension hop for another full attack of damage.

Stand is Teleportation as well. Might not be useable for this build, though. As your DM.

Was looking into this build as a back up character and I have a question. Um how do you get around quicken's Special rule

This feat can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

for Dimension hop?

[Mephit]

Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage can get around that, I do believe.

Leadership is completely broken and there's not really a reason not to take it, but Socratov makes a good point that it can sometimes make the game less fun for other people, so you should take it at your own discretion. It's also a bit of a hassle since you have another character to take care of.
I strongly recommend dropping the followers clause and just using the cohort. Followers hold up the game a lot and their impact on a game is not worth the trouble.

[Enochi]

After Double checking I do NOT need skill focus preform for Virtuoso or Sublime

Bard 7/Sorcerer 1/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

CG Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting (Human)
1: Lingering Song (Flaw)
1: Nymph's Kiss (Flaw)
3: Item Familiar
6: Words of Creation
9: Chaos Music
12: Snowflake Wardance
15: ?
18: ?

Bard Substitutions:
1: Healing hymn
6: Suggestion for Song of the Heart

Sorcerer Substitution:
1: Dragon blooded.

2000 gp for Starting items:

Badge of Valor 1400
Natural Horn - Masterwork 100
Standard Adventurer's Kit 16

Can I get a feat and level progression for the Dimension hopper?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd drop the Marshal level, it's cutting you out of +2d6 worth of DFI counting Words of Creation.

Consider picking up the feat Doomspeak from Champions of Ruin.

[gooddragon1]

If you're doing an assistance based build

Crusader 1 [Martial Spirit Stance] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232171#post12693166)
Warblade 1 [Leading the Charge Stance, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge] (This level is taken later when you have the Initiator level necessary to take these and if you took at least 1 white raven maneuver as a crusader you have the necessary stuff to do this, take wall of blades too)

White raven tactics is like copying one of your allies because it gives him another turn.
You've got unlimited healing as well. The precise rules argument you may need to make is: "Each time you hit an opponent in melee, you can choose a different recipient within range to receive this healing."
The underlined part and the context of the sentence indicates that this is merely an additional option and does not restrict you to changing targets only when hitting an opponent.
Then you take Cleric [Spontaneous Domain Variant from PHB 2 with respect to alteration domain (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/domains.html)][Travel Domain] Do not have a deity. Polymorph the paladin into a hydra (unless your DM is precisely rules as written he can charge and full attack or even just move and full attack given how hydras work). If it's just you then summon monster something with enough Hit Dice and polymorph that into a Hydra. Shapechange will save your butt in many situations and can be used to turn you into fun things like a prismatic golem (what prismatic barrier?) or just a construct in general. Alter self into a troglodyte early on for +6 to AC or an Avariel for a fly speed.

[Torvon]

I tend to get really really bad rolls
In the last 10 years, I won all 21 bets against people who were actually convinced this was true. Recommendation: write down the next 100 rolls and compare against average roll. And you'll see you're _exactly_ average. :smalltongue:

Don't let yourself be limited by character concepts because you want to avoid attack rolls because you think you roll worse than other people. Such things don't happen.

[Enochi]

If you're doing an assistance based build

Crusader 1 [Martial Spirit Stance] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232171#post12693166)

Then you take Cleric [Spontaneous Domain Variant from PHB 2 with respect to alteration domain (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/domains.html)][Travel Domain] Do not have a deity. Polymorph the paladin into a hydra (unless your DM is precisely rules as written he can charge and full attack or even just move and full attack given how hydras work). If it's just you then summon monster something with enough Hit Dice and polymorph that into a Hydra. Shapechange will save your butt in many situations and can be used to turn you into fun things like a prismatic golem (what prismatic barrier?) or just a construct in general. Alter self into a troglodyte early on for +6 to AC or an Avariel for a fly speed.

I have no idea what you are doing with this build could you explain please?

[Enochi]

In the last 10 years, I won all 21 bets against people who were actually convinced this was true. Recommendation: write down the next 100 rolls and compare against average roll. And you'll see you're _exactly_ average. :smalltongue:

Don't let yourself be limited by character concepts because you want to avoid attack rolls because you think you roll worse than other people. Such things don't happen.

I did this granted it was 40k rather then D20. I it well acknowledged among my peers that in regards to dice rolls I somehow manage roll poorly. In cards though I have above average luck.

[gooddragon1]

I have no idea what you are doing with this build could you explain please?

Unlimited healing out of combat without persist shenanigans and heavy feat investment. (You could go battle cleric build with persist Divine Metamagic shenanigans but it requires a feat investment and perhaps nightsticks)

White Raven tactics for when you run out of spells and want the paladin to hit stuff.

Hydra form through polymorph spell for a lot of damage with very little spell usage.

[Torvon]

I did this granted it was 40k rather then D20. I it well acknowledged among my peers that in regards to dice rolls I somehow manage roll poorly. In cards though I have above average luck.
One cool thing about science is that you can test things - and "bad luck" in rolls is something that couldn't be easier tested. Again, write down the results of your next 100 die rolls and dice type, and then average after 100 or 200 rolls.

Alas, in card games it is much harder to scientifically show that consistent luck does not exist, seeing that nearly all card game results are confounded by some sort of potential unequal distribution of skill among players.

By the way: just because your peers' minds selective perceive your biased report of and stress on negative roll results doesn't invalidate the notion that it's nonsense.

[Enochi]

One cool thing about science is that you can test things - and "bad luck" in rolls is something that couldn't be easier tested. Again, write down the results of your next 100 die rolls and dice type, and then average after 100 or 200 rolls.

Alas, in card games it is much harder to scientifically show that consistent luck does not exist, seeing that nearly all card game results are confounded by some sort of potential unequal distribution of skill among players.

By the way: just because your peers' minds selective perceive your biased report of and stress on negative roll results doesn't invalidate the notion that it's nonsense.

Dude I had statistics last semester and got an A. I understand how usually probability will even out. I also understand that the time you Need the critical success are rarer the times have the chance of obtaining a critical failure.

[Snowbluff]

Was looking into this build as a back up character and I have a question. Um how do you get around quicken's Special rule

This feat can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

for Dimension hop?


Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage can get around that, I do believe.


Answered. Thanks, Mephit. If you use it and end up liking it, spread the word. I am trying to make a name for myself and my little build. :smallsmile:

[gooddragon1]

Dude I had statistics last semester and got an A. I understand how usually probability will even out. I also understand that the time you Need the critical success are rarer the times have the chance of obtaining a critical failure.

If you're rolling actual dice this might be the reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

[Torvon]

Dude I had statistics last semester and got an A. I understand how usually probability will even out.
Don't tell your Prof about that second sentence then, or he might reconsider.

[Enochi]

Answered. Thanks, Mephit. If you use it and end up liking it, spread the word. I am trying to make a name for myself and my little build. :smallsmile:

Can I get a full breakdown of the build please?

[Socratov]

Here is a shopping list for when you get more money:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

Also, you are a Cha-based buff build - you should be taking Leadership at level 6.

If you're considering alternate builds, I've got some REALLY nasty ones that start out mean and get worse from there.

For example, if you take a Fire Gnome (LA +1 gnome, immune to fire) and give him the Troll Blooded feat (Regen 1, except fire and acid damage), you can get a 1st level character who takes subdual damage from everything except acid, meaning you're nearly impossible to kill. And there are various ways to become immune to subdual damage through class levels...

My favorite trick with Dvati is Shadow Pounce - after a teleport effect, you can make a full attack. There are a number of ways to get at-will teleport abilities (like Shape Soulmeld-Blink Shirt, which gives you at-will standard action (SU) teleports all day for 1 feat). The trick? By RAW both sets of bodies get their full attack when either teleports. Works best with Telflammar Shadowlord (Shining South, FR), as they also get sneak attack.

I've got a few other nasty ones, but those are my favorites for sheer cheesiness.

No, if you want the cohort, get a cohort feat. If you really need followers, pump diplomacy and create fanatics,. they are for free (else you need to pay them or lose leadershipscore).

Pump diplomacy-> beat 50 DC, start a cult :smallcool: (this can be done at lvl 6 and is strictly speaking epic usage of diplomacy, but you only need to meet the DC, some people consider this extremely cheesy)

besides. followers are a handful to handle. if you really want 10 minute turns of endless rolling, go ahead, but otherwise don't do it. (it becomes quite another story if you go warchanter where the followers can make quite a difference becuase they now have respectable bab, and you can give them damage from DFI, but still, creating a cult of fanatics is better. Plus, if your DM doesn't look out you can gain divine ranks by having them worship you :smallamused:)

Seriously, leadrship is diplomacy for those who can't pump it. :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Can I get a full breakdown of the build please?

Okay. Since you aren't doing fullcasters, I'll give the Duskblade Version breakdown. Wizards works better, but I think you said you don't want to use full casters.

If you want to , Wizard can replace DB, and you lose like 6 CL anyway. Trade out your Wiz feats for fighter bonus feats, as the UA variant.

Silverbrow Human, 2 flaws.

1:Swordsage1: Dodge, Mobility, Repeat Spell, Shape Soulmeld (Blinkshirt)
2:Duskblade1:
3:Duskblade2: Blind Fight
4:Duskblade3:
5:Duskblade4:
6:Duskblade5: Spring Attack
7:Duskblade6
8:Swordsage2: Assassin's Stance, Shadow Jaunt.
9:TFSL: Rapid Metamagic
10:TFSL:
11:TFSL:
12:TFSL: Arcane Thesis: (Dimension Hop)
13:Duskblade7:
14:Duskblade8:
15:Duskblade9:
16:Duskblade10:
17:Duskblade11:
18:Duskblade12:
19:Duskblade13:
20:Duskblade14:

Remember that Swordsage get's x6 skill points at first level.

15 and 18 should be some thing like Practical MM and Twin Spell. Another good feat would be Versatile Spellcaster

If you can, use Dark Chaos Shuffle to trade away Blink Shirt if you want another feat. You can dip a level in fighter if you want Power attack or similiar.

Stand works as well, and it is a lower level spell than Dimension Hop. Apparently, you teleport into a standing position. Might be a little iffy, though.

Petty much pre-level 12 you are a Duskblade that has some sneak attack and some spells. At twelve you can Shadow Pounce, with Repeat Spell letting you do it again. Repeat spell is rather pricy, but cheaper than Twin or Quicken (Or Quick Casting from DB).

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, if you want the cohort, get a cohort feat. If you really need followers, pump diplomacy and create fanatics,. they are for free (else you need to pay them or lose leadershipscore).

Pump diplomacy-> beat 50 DC, start a cult :smallcool: (this can be done at lvl 6 and is strictly speaking epic usage of diplomacy, but you only need to meet the DC, some people consider this extremely cheesy)

besides. followers are a handful to handle. if you really want 10 minute turns of endless rolling, go ahead, but otherwise don't do it. (it becomes quite another story if you go warchanter where the followers can make quite a difference becuase they now have respectable bab, and you can give them damage from DFI, but still, creating a cult of fanatics is better. Plus, if your DM doesn't look out you can gain divine ranks by having them worship you :smallamused:)

Seriously, leadrship is diplomacy for those who can't pump it. :smallamused:

I see this get tossed around sometimes, so let me point out two significant flaws and one less significant flaw in this line of thinking.

A) The fanatic attitude has a duration. It only lasts for 1+ cha bonus days on each target.

B) It counts as a mind-affecting, enchantment affect, meaning it can be blocked.

C) Building a diplomancer means -not- building something else. Not only the DM, but the other players are likely to get irritated when you regularly talk the fights away, and when your character is nigh-useless against creatures that can't be talked away.

If you're going to use leadership, it's best to keep followers operating in the background, off screen. Unless you're an amazing buffer, they'll just get in the way anyway.

[kestrel404]

I see this get tossed around sometimes, so let me point out two significant flaws and one less significant flaw in this line of thinking.

A) The fanatic attitude has a duration. It only lasts for 1+ cha bonus days on each target.

B) It counts as a mind-affecting, enchantment affect, meaning it can be blocked.

C) Building a diplomancer means -not- building something else. Not only the DM, but the other players are likely to get irritated when you regularly talk the fights away, and when your character is nigh-useless against creatures that can't be talked away.

If you're going to use leadership, it's best to keep followers operating in the background, off screen. Unless you're an amazing buffer, they'll just get in the way anyway.

This. Although what you're making IS an amazing buffer, however this mostly means that you'll want to keep your cohort & a couple of your highest level minions around, and the rest only show up if you're in a pitched battle (Leadership is at its core the "we're going to war" feat).

Also, I'd like to remind everyone, including the OP, that he's starting at 2nd level. This is why I proposed the LA+1 Gnome who virtually cannot die. He's a serious threat from level 2 on, and with LA buyoff (which you'll have access to, since you get all books), you can get rid of that LA just in time to take an acquired template that grants Acid immunity (there are actually a couple if I remember right, but the one that involves getting puppeted by Illithids (and then killing said illithids off, so you're no longer their puppet, but retain all the bonuses) is probably the best). This, plus something that renders you immune to subdual damage can make you IMMUNE TO DAMAGE by ECL 8 or so.

[Socratov]

I see this get tossed around sometimes, so let me point out two significant flaws and one less significant flaw in this line of thinking.

A) The fanatic attitude has a duration. It only lasts for 1+ cha bonus days on each target.

B) It counts as a mind-affecting, enchantment affect, meaning it can be blocked.

C) Building a diplomancer means -not- building something else. Not only the DM, but the other players are likely to get irritated when you regularly talk the fights away, and when your character is nigh-useless against creatures that can't be talked away.

If you're going to use leadership, it's best to keep followers operating in the background, off screen. Unless you're an amazing buffer, they'll just get in the way anyway.

If I can turn the enemy fanatic at lvl 6 (and I have) with just a bard and a level of marshall and warlock it's not that hard to do it to indifferent peopel or even helpful people. (so C is not true)

B is true to stop you form talking higher level encounters away

A: a couple of days (let's say 5 minimum since you put an 18 in cha at the start) si more then enough. if you need to replenish, go to some slums (any real city has slums or some poor district) and start talking to people. If you are afraid of them going away, try talking to them more.

profit? you can keep all your loot for yourself. if you ahve followers, you need to feed them and pay them to keep them around (else you can expect your leadershipscore to fall rapidly leaving you with no followers or cohort and a wasted feat).

The reason you don't want to do it anyway is the following: do you really want to take your turns over the course of 15+ min per turn? Because I and all my DM agree that if you take leadership you may position and resolve every single person's actions. I think your players have you rather talk your way through encounters. there is a reason most DM's ban leadership (and most TO competitions as well). it's a feat that is only situationally good and you only want it for the cohort (which could actually be very useful and not too much hassle).

Played a pseudo version once (in a naval part of the campaign I got to be the leader of the pirates (as a dread pirate with leadership), fighting a naval war against the marines of some idiot nation). other members in the party (druids wildshaping, casters casting, clerics doing stuff, half orf half dragon barbarians whacking away) they had turns of 2 mins max inculding rolling and descriptions. I was trying to micromanage my fleet and take my own turns as well taking 10~20 minutes at the time with only 5 'units' (read: ships) maneuvering and shooting bombards and ballistae. fun for the first 5 turns, afterwards it becomes a chore.

I'm not saying it's bad-wrong-fun(tm), but know that hogging the spotlight and slowing combat down to a creeping snail might not be best decision when you can take another feat that improves you or the party directly. Oh, and after those sessions the campaign ceased to exist.

[Kaustic]

1:Swordsage1: Dodge, Mobility, Repeat Spell, Shape Soulmeld (Blinkshirt)


Curious how do you get Repeat Spell at first level, doesn't it require any other Metamagic feat first? Also, you don't happen to have the build without flaws. I like the concept, however, most DM's I run with are inclined NOT to use Flaws!:smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, if you have not noticed, if you aren't entering via Wizard it is an EXTREMELY feat starved build. A dip into fighter2 might help, but if your casting base doesn't have bonus feats, you can be in quite a pickle.

[Enochi]

Ok Ended up using this character in a Different game as well that has slightly different rules. Changes to rules are 1. Its pathfinder. 2. All 3.5 AND 3.0 books allowed

Right now its looking something like this.

After Double checking I do NOT need skill focus preform for Virtuoso or Sublime

Bard 7/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

CG Silverbrow Human

Feats:
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration)
1: Nymph's Kiss
1: DM freebie Dragonic Heritage Sapphire Dragon
3: Item Familiar/Or Melodic Casting?
5: Item Familiar/Or Melodic Casting?
7: Words of Creation
9: Chaos Music
11: Snowflake Wardance
13: ?
15: ?
17: ?
19: ?

Bard Substitutions:
1: Healing hymn
6: Suggestion for Song of the Heart

Fiddle - Masterwork 100 (Lets me play 2 bardic music at a time)

Some neat spells I found in 3.0

0: Fine-tune (Makes Instrument Masterwork) Song and Silence
1: Harmonize (+2 bonus to attack and damage rolls for inspire courage, +4 for save vs fear) Magic of Faerun

[Enochi]

Did anyone have any more ideas for this? Or an ways to min-max out a purely pathfinder Magus?