William Wallace

[leegi0n]

If you playgrounder ultra-builders were to create a 20lvl William Wallace character based exactly as he is portrayed in Braveheart, what would the build be?

same sword, same armor, same attitude - you get it.

(no lightning bolts from the eyes or fireballs from the arse allowed)

someone wanna take a swing at it?

[Narren]

Lvl 10 commoner/Lvl 10 warrior? He's really not that remarkable, giving him 20 levels means you have to give him some shoddy classes.

[killem2]

I would go, Level 2 Commoner/Level 15 Fighter/Level 5 Marshal, or a level 2 commoner/ level 18 fighter with Leadership stacked out the waazoo.

[leegi0n]

Ok, now - the mythical, heroic, super Wallace. What would he be?

[gallagher]

The thing is, at level 20, he should be able to already be a total bamf compared to these petty soldiers, regardless of his class. If you want to play someone legendary, its mainly a roleplay kind of thing

[Dienekes]

For a frame of reference, William Wallace in the movie was probably only about level 4-5 with fairly decent stat rolls. Level 20 would be better represented by say, characters like Hercules, Gilgamesh, and Beowulf. Folks who swim across oceans in full armor, wrestle giants for fun, and other ridiculous and fantastical things.

Now if you want to know what classes to pick to get a very powerful two-handed weapon magicless warrior, I'd suggest looking at the Warblade class to get a lot of cool maneuvers to use. Maybe dip into Barbarian for Pounce, or even Fighter if you need an extra feat here or there.

And then for feats I would suggest Power Attack, Shocktrooper, and Leap Attack as the holy triumvirate of dealing ridiculous amounts of damage with a two-handed weapon.

[Wyntonian]

...what gives you the impression that he's level 20?


Aside from "Well, he's super cool, so he's the best! Level 20 is the best! He's level 20!"

I'd say he's a level 4 warblade with White Raven, Iron Heart and Stone Dragon, and a good roleplayer behind him, if maybe a little prone to chewing the scenery.

[jedipilot24]

Yes, an E6 approach is definitely merited for William Wallace.

Fighter 6 with good stat rolls, the Aggressive and Reckless traits from UA, and: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Cometary Collision, and Shock Trooper.

[Agincourt]

Yes, an E6 approach is definitely merited for William Wallace.

Fighter 6 with good stat rolls, the Aggressive and Reckless traits from UA, and: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Cometary Collision, and Shock Trooper.

I think it would be a Claymore (Greatsword) not a Bastard Sword. That'd free up a feat, maybe.

[ericgrau]

Why would you burn a feat to wield a bastard sword two handed anyway? You can already do that.

[Socratov]

I woudl make him a bard/warchanter with perform(Oratory). One defining staple of him in the movie is the fact that he inspires people to fight better then they would have on their own. sounds like the warchanter capstone to me...

[Kinsmarck]

20th level...? Let me start by suggesting the article, "D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations." Try some Google-fu for it, as I've since forgotten where I first read it. Provides some very well thought-out insights into why a build like this is...counter-intuitive.

Max power-level I'd stat him at? Barbarian1/Swordsage2, with a focus on White Raven maneuvers. I'd opt for the swordsage, and not for warblade, as he'll need all the skill points dumped into bluff, diplomacy, ride, etc. to accurately represent the breadth of skills such a talented leader possessed. As to his proficiencies, he is most commonly depicted as wielding a claymore, which is unquestionably a greatsword, so no need for blowing Exotic proficiencies on a bastard sword. Feat-wise: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Extra Rage.

[Bagger]

in one of the complete books there is a prc. called something with battlefield trapmaker. (something something) if that can be comboed with a bard there can do the epic talks he gives.

I would never make him level 20 more like leel 4-6 (maybe more if the prc. requires it, but Braveheart is a low level adventure in my world. well low to mid

[Killer Angel]

Max power-level I'd stat him at? Barbarian1/Swordsage2, with a focus on White Raven maneuvers.

...unless we want to give him the leadership feat (which I would). A sixth level sounds good to me, for Braveheart.

[hamishspence]

20th level...? Let me start by suggesting the article, "D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations." Try some Google-fu for it, as I've since forgotten where I first read it. Provides some very well thought-out insights into why a build like this is...counter-intuitive.

I've seen arguments on this forum that said it was guilty of cherry-picking examples to support its point, and ignoring those that don't.

[jedipilot24]

I think it would be a Claymore (Greatsword) not a Bastard Sword. That'd free up a feat, maybe.

Hmm...I just checked the Arms and Equipment guide and it seems you're right. My bad.

Fighter 6 with good stat rolls, the Aggressive and Reckless traits from UA, and: Power Attack, Cleave, Resounding Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Cometary Collision, and Shock Trooper.

[Socratov]

I still think the capability to inspire masses (and not jsut his followers like in leadership) should be accounted for. As well as when he is around people fight better. That makes him bard in my book. also he is not better trained in fighting then any other, he was just taught to apply his brains before his biceps. I still think warchanter all the way...

[Lapak]

I've seen arguments on this forum that said it was guilty of cherry-picking examples to support its point, and ignoring those that don't.Possibly, but if so this is another good example to cherry-pick. Historically he was a talented leader and warrior but not superhuman; in the movie he gets taken down by half-a-dozen Generic Goons without so much as scratching one of them. Unless we're assuming that the thugs-of-no-particular importance are themselves level 10+, a 20th level character - even an unoptimized Commoner 20 - would have put up more of a fight.

[Socratov]

unless not optimized for fighting, but optimized for leadership. also notice how he is not wearing any amor. even lvl 10 mooks can reach (let's go out on a limb here) 10 (base)+4 (18 in dex)+2 (stat increases) =16 AC, let alone while flanking...

[Lapak]

unless not optimized for fighting, but optimized for leadership. also notice how he is not wearing any amor. even lvl 10 mooks can reach (let's go out on a limb here) 10 (base)+4 (18 in dex)+2 (stat increases) =16 AC, let alone while flanking...Note that I said 'UNLESS we are assuming' that the mooks were level 10 or more themselves, which there really is no reason for them to be as they are almost literally Generic Guards, #1-6. :smalltongue:

[Dienekes]

I still think the capability to inspire masses (and not jsut his followers like in leadership) should be accounted for. As well as when he is around people fight better. That makes him bard in my book. also he is not better trained in fighting then any other, he was just taught to apply his brains before his biceps. I still think warchanter all the way...

Unfortunately that breaks the "no magic" restriction. And it's not necessary as it can be replicated by a Warblade that focuses on White Raven maneuvers. Maybe give him a higher than normal Cha, Diplomacy is already a class skill, and at level 6 pick up Leadership and he should be good to go.

[Stormageddon]

2 bard/3 barbarian or to level 20 10 bard / 10 barbarian. Maybe could be switched to Marshall but I'm not familiar with that class.

Stats

Str>CHA>CON>DEX>INT>WIS


Wisdom is the dump stat because taking on the English army at that time while brave was not the wise move.

[Stormageddon]

If pathfinder Caverlier might be a good fight. Basically take a leader class and smash it with barbarian is my idea.

[Kaeso]

Are we talking about the historical William Wallace or the FREEEEEDOOOOOM Mel Gibson William Wallace?

[killem2]

Are we talking about the historical William Wallace or the FREEEEEDOOOOOM Mel Gibson William Wallace?

I assumed FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDOUUUUHGGHGHGHHGHHGughgh.. ..


:smallbiggrin:

[Sugashane]

I'd say Barbarian 2/ Marshal 1/ Paladin of Freedom 3

Leadership. Yessir....:smallbiggrin:

[leegi0n]

I assumed FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDOUUUUHGGHGHGHHGHHGughgh.. ..


:smallbiggrin:



yeah, that's the one I had in mind.

[Karoht]

I would go, Level 2 Commoner/Level 15 Fighter/Level 5 Marshal, or a level 2 commoner/ level 18 fighter with Leadership stacked out the waazoo.
His cohort needs to be named Grommit.

[Slipperychicken]

Aside from "Well, he's super cool, so he's the best! Level 20 is the best! He's level 20!"


I despise this line of thinking. Real-life/realistic people are best represented from levels 1-6, with level 6 being only the most truly hardcore of badasses. Aragorn was a low-level Ranger, and Gandalf a 5th level Magic-User.

I don't recall who said it first, but here's a paraphrased version: Einstein greatly advanced our understanding of physics. He was at most a level 7 Expert to be able to do this routinely, but was certainly not level 20. Level 20 would not be "made great advances", level 20 would make him one step removed from being God of Physics.

[hamishspence]

Thealexandrian, I think. The argument's a bit shaky though- and there's plenty of game material that suggests level 10 is perfectly "ordinary".

D20 Modern also uses level 10 as the point where NPCs are usually statted to- with Level 10 Smart Ordinary as your average postgraduate scientist, and a long way from Einstein.

[Wyntonian]

Here's the original article. (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

It has some flaws, yeah. But it doesn't matter if it "cherry picks" characters to fit the idea if an example character like William Wallace fits it perfectly anyway.

[Agincourt]

I rather like The Alexandrian essay and do not understand the criticism that the author cherry-picks real life examples. Since he can't break it down for everyone, or everyone who was ever famous, he had to limit his essay to a few examples.

I'd like to hear of a real life person who would make sense as, say, a 12th level character.

[Zonugal]

I don't recall who said it first, but here's a paraphrased version: Einstein greatly advanced our understanding of physics. He was at most a level 7 Expert to be able to do this routinely, but was certainly not level 20. Level 20 would not be "made great advances", level 20 would make him one step removed from being God of Physics.

Ahaha, no... You can make Einstein work perfectly well at 3rd level (because 7th level is ridiculous, I mean why would Einstein be a better fighter than 4th-level Fighter?).

So, this I feel is a neat little build which may showcase Einstein's abilities while keeping him fairly low-level.

Einstein: Male Old Human Human Paragon 3; CR 3; medium humanoid (human); HD 3d8-6; hp 12; Init -2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 8 (10 -2 dex), touch 8, flat-footed 8; Base Atk +2; Grp +0; Atk -2 melee (1d4-2/19-20x2; 10ft.; slashing; dagger); SA; SQ Adaptive Learning (Sense Motive); AL NG; SV Fort -1, Ref -1, Will +9; Str 7, Dex 7, Con 7, Int 22, Wis 13, Cha 13.
Skills, Feats & Skill Tricks: Craft (Wordsmithing) +11 (5 ranks +6 int), Diplomacy +8 (5 ranks +1 cha +2 synergy), Knowledge (Arcana) +16 (6 ranks +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded) Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) +20 (6 ranks +6 int +3 Skill Focus +1 Educated +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (Geography) +11 (1 rank +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (History) +11 (1 rank +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (Local) +11 (1 rank +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (Mathematics) +15 (6 ranks +6 int +1 Educated +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (Nature) +11 (1 rank +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +11 (1 rank +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Knowledge (Religion) +11 (1 rank +6 int +2 Favored bonus +1 Master of Knowledge +1 Absent Minded), Perform (Oratory) +5 (4 ranks +1 cha), Profession (Sage) +5 (4 ranks +1 wis), Sense Motive +11 (5 ranks +6 int), Speak/Read/Write (Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, and Halfling), Spellcraft +14 (6 ranks +6 int +2 synergy); Educated, Favored (Scholastic Guild), Keen Intellect, Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), Master of Knowledge, Research and Skill Focus (Architecture & Engineering); Collector of Stories
Flaws & Traits: Noncombatant & Shaky; Absent Minded

So, with that build in mind here is what we can do with a standard knowledge check.

Trivial Knowledge (Any of Einstein's skills with 1 rank)
Geography
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +21; Answer any difficult question about lands, terrain, climate, peoples, ect... He can set a course for a distant & carefully studied destination with an extremely poor chart and follow a course in open ocean with clear weather.
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +31; Answer very hard questions about lands, terrain, climate, peoples, ect...
History
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +21; Answer any difficult question about wars, colonies, migration, founding of cities, ect...
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +31; Answer very hard questions about wars, colonies, migration, founding of cities, ect... He may also deduce the command word of a magical item based on its decorations, creator, origin, ect...
Local
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +21; Answer any difficult question about legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, ect... He can gleam one or more useful pieces of information for up to 14 HD regarding humanoids.
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +31; Answer very hard questions about legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, ect...
Nature
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +21; Answer any difficult question about seasons & cycles, weather, ect... He can gleam one or more useful pieces of information for up to 14 HD regarding animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants & vermin.
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +31; Answer very hard questions about seasons & cycles, weather, ect...
Nobility & Royalty
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +21; Answer any difficult question about lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities, ect... Know enough about who is in favor, who has the actual power, ect... in an average noble house to function efficiently in court, the bureaucracy, ect...
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +31; Answer very hard questions about lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities, ect... Know enough about who is in favor, who has the actual power, ect... in an entire kingdom to function efficiently in court, the bureaucracy, ect...
Religion
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +21; Answer any difficult question about deities, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, ect... He can gleam one or more useful pieces of information for up to 14 HD regarding the undead. Know enough about who is in favor, who has the actual power, ect... in a town-sized territory to function efficiently with regards to a church and its hierarchy.
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +31; Answer very hard questions about deities, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, ect... Know enough about who is in favor, who has the actual power, ect... in a metropolis-sized territory to function efficiently with regards to a church and its hierarchy.

Expert Knowledge (Any of Einstein's skills with 6 ranks)
Arcana
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +26; Answer any hard question about ancient mysteries, magical traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, ect... He can gleam one or more useful pieces of information for up to 19 HD regarding constructs, dragons & magical beasts.
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +36; Answer very, very hard questions about ancient mysteries, magical traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, ect... He may also deduce the command word of a magical item based on its decorations, creator, origin, ect...
Architecture & Engineering
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +30; Answer any very, hard question about buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications, ect... He can find up to three weakness in an observed stronghold. He can design & supervise the construction of any ship in Stormwrack even with a terrible work force. He could even build a longship with a terrible work force & poor materials in a two-month rush job (thus building it almost immediately).
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +40; Answer absurdly hard/difficult questions about buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications, ect... He can find up to five weakness in an observed stronghold. He can design & supervise the construction of any ship in Stormwrack even with a terrible work force & poor materials. He could even build a galley with a terrible work force & poor materials in a two-month rush job (thus building it almost immediately).
Mathematics
Off the Top of His Head (Taking a 10): +25; Answer any hard question about basic math, geometry, algebra, ect...
Through Diligent Research/Preparation (Taking 20): +35; Answer very, very hard questions about basic math, geometry, algebra, ect...

Other Pertinent Skills
Craft (Wordsmithing)
Standard Use (Taking 10): +21; He can write a poem, novel, reference book or epic.
Diplomacy
Standard Use (Taking 10): +18; He can turn a hostile individual unfriendly towards him (with a masterwork tool), turn an unfriendly individual indifferent from him, turn an indifferent individual friendly towards him and turn a friendly individual helpful towards him (with a masterwork tool).
Perform (Oratory)
Standard Use (Taking 10): +15; He can put on an enjoyable performance.
Profession (Sage)
Standard Use (Taking 10): +15; He can typically pull in around 6-7 gold pieces per week.

So at 3rd-level this guy is already very smart. He's answering any difficult question regarding a variety of topics and through research he's only answering more. With Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) and Knowledge (Mathematics) he's able to answer questions in the 35-40 DC area but should he down a potion of Guidance of the Avatar he's suddenly pushed into the 55-60 DC area which should be enough for him to start making revolutionary discoveries. In addition he has the skills to put such discoveries down on paper and entertain others with them.