WarHulk actually playable? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Discipol

2012-12-04, 05:22 PM

You would roleplay a creature that is naturally strong and stronger. Not a bodybuilder, but someone that expresses and perceives the world through physical strength. Think like an Ape or a Bull. You see everyone as either too weak to merit your attention, or strong enough to pose as a threat, in which case a fight will make things clearer.

Note you have to be a monstruous humanoid, and I see a Goliath as being the perfect fit.

Starbuck_II

2012-12-04, 05:26 PM

Just a general question, if folks feel that warhulk is an actual playable and roleplayable role, or something that is best left for the NPC's and Mini's

Well, you are mostly deaf and blind (wis based skill ranks), you know and recognize nothing (no int skill ranks), etc.

So I can't see it be a good roleplay.
Heck, you likely can't even identify other of your species usually. That might explain all the 1/2 species out there...

limejuicepowder

2012-12-04, 05:38 PM

Well, you are mostly deaf and blind (wis based skill ranks), you know and recognize nothing (no int skill ranks), etc.

So I can't see it be a good roleplay.
Heck, you likely can't even identify other of your species usually. That might explain all the 1/2 species out there...

I lol'd. clap to you.

Though now that I look at the skill, it's a bit of an exaggeration. The war hulk character effectively looses all ranks in wis, int, and cha based skills, but that doesn't stop them from making checks. They will be really bad at it, but the check can still be made. Most importantly and most relevantly, checks with a DC of 10 or less can still be auto-made (like recognizing your own species, or hearing the person talking to you).

TuggyNE

2012-12-04, 05:56 PM

Most importantly and most relevantly, checks with a DC of 10 or less can still be auto-made (like recognizing your own species, or hearing the person talking to you).

Since by strict RAW both of those can easily be over 10 (identifying your species is always at least 11 [10 + HD], and understanding speech is 11 if the other person is more than 10 feet away [0 talking + 10 understand words + 1/10']), that's not terribly comforting. :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-04, 06:01 PM

It's certainly viable from a mechanical perspective. Attack everyone within reach as an attack action? Yes, please. As far as the lack of BAB, that's easily fixed with a Skillful Weapon.

RandomLunatic

2012-12-04, 06:08 PM

Fighters have virtually no INT, WIS, or CHA-linked class skills, and tend to dump mentals anyway, and nobody complains that they are un-RPable, so why not?

killem2

2012-12-04, 06:09 PM

I hand waived my players half orc barbarian to go into this class, when he gained a level while still large from enlarge person.

He is kind of new, and he loves the idea of drinking a potion and going insane lol. He also has the barbarian variant berserker strength.

I'll let ya know :P

limejuicepowder

2012-12-04, 06:21 PM

Since by strict RAW both of those can easily be over 10 (identifying your species is always at least 11 [10 + HD], and understanding speech is 11 if the other person is more than 10 feet away [0 talking + 10 understand words + 1/10']), that's not terribly comforting. :smalltongue:

To nitpick even further, if the war hulk's mental stats are below 10, they won't even auto-succeed on a DC 10 or less.

0 ranks + (negative ability modifier) + taking 10 = 9 or less.

I would waive it for the sake of sanity if one of my players wanted to hulk up, but your point remains - the character, by RAW, would need a seeing-eye dog, and ear trumpet, and an electric shock collar to not ROFLstomp everything in existence.

RAW skill checks suck.

Darius Kane

2012-12-04, 07:11 PM

identifying your species is always at least 11 [10 + HD]
At least 10. Some species don't have HD.

Runestar

2012-12-05, 01:33 AM

Divine power takes care of any bab deficiencies...:smallamused:

Makes me feel like rolling up a half-ogre cleric7/war-hulk npc...:smalltongue:

LTwerewolf

2012-12-05, 01:56 AM

Divine power takes care of any bab deficiencies...:smallamused:

Makes me feel like rolling up a half-ogre cleric7/war-hulk npc...:smalltongue:

With the lost traditions feat to change your casting from wis to str.

TuggyNE

2012-12-05, 06:56 AM

At least 10. Some species don't have HD.

All creatures have RHD. Some have fractional RHD (cats, for example; you'd probably round down their DC to 10, which means it's actually possible to make untrained), and some merely trade in their single RHD for a class level (all humanoids, a number of other creatures). Unless you're playing e.g. a grig (½d6) or something else with fractional HD, you're going to have a DC of 11 or more. Which means it can't be made untrained, and can't be made by a war hulk.

Knowledge checks are messed up, man.

TheifofZ

2012-12-05, 07:37 AM

In general, the War Hulk loses nothing in particular (except BAB and bonus feats) that several other melee classes don't (Wis/Int skill checks among them. And don't even tell me that your local barbarian player ever has an Int score higher than his Con, except in the most gish or cheesy of builds)

In fact, due to the +2 Str/level advancement, the War Hulk has the same To-Hit advancement as a Fighter of the same level. The reasons the War Hulk doesn't receive BAB are because of this, and because ideally they only make one attack around (making full attacks unnecessary). Even if it hits -everything- around them, it's still only one attack. PCs that want to enter this class should be aware that this isn't going to benefit them all the time, and might even hinder them when they're up against a single foe.
The whole point of the PrC, though, is just to wade into a massed group of smaller enemies and just chop and/or smash the whole lot in one swing.

If you want to call me on the blind/deaf thing, the appropriate response is Spot/Listen are racial skills for most of the monstrous humanoids that can enter (usually giantkin). As for that crack about the Int? Most adventurers don't have ranks in "Knowledge: Anything At All" either, and they seem to get along just fine.

Darius Kane

2012-12-05, 08:19 AM

All creatures have RHD. Some have fractional RHD (cats, for example; you'd probably round down their DC to 10, which means it's actually possible to make untrained), and some merely trade in their single RHD for a class level (all humanoids, a number of other creatures). Unless you're playing e.g. a grig (½d6) or something else with fractional HD, you're going to have a DC of 11 or more. Which means it can't be made untrained, and can't be made by a war hulk.

Knowledge checks are messed up, man.
All creatures have HD. Creatures with 1 HD can (or have to, I dunno) replace it with a class level. Class levels don't count for Knowledge checks. Thus many creatures are identified with a 10.

Morrison

2012-12-05, 02:07 PM

I was in a campaign with a feral loxo who went into war hulk. On a mechanical level he was terrifyingly good (by the end of the game, he had a strength of 57 or something), and as far as roleplay went, he made basic sense. The player just ran the loxo as a big dumb thing, easy prey for my sorcerer's habit of compulsively telling harmless lies, but he could still speak - just not eloquently.

Venger

2012-12-05, 08:08 PM

if leadership is on the table, might makes right lets you add your str bonus to your leadership score (not replace, add!) so if you can get a low positive (or just avoid a negative in cha) then that can be anice little bonus, especially if you're a wintimidator (remember: no time to think specifically calls out intimidate as an exception)

kardar233

2012-12-05, 09:08 PM

I saw a great idea for an Evil solution to War Hulk's BAB problems:

Be a Goliath, and use the Mountain Rage substitution level to qualify for War Hulk. Thus, No Time To Think only applies while you're in your rage. Using the sacrifice rules from BoVD and ranks in Knowledge: Religion, sacrifice people to give you 24-hour Divine Power buffs. Full BAB and an extra strength bonus.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-05, 09:11 PM

Slipperychicken

2012-12-05, 09:29 PM

Both. nbdhdgh

Agreed. It's a Big Stupid Fighter.

Mechanically, it's great if you're two-handing, and don't care much for Power Attack shenanigans. Very nice with Dungeoncrasher Fighter, since the size and Str bonuses make your Bull Rush very difficult to resist. No Time To Think isn't so bad roleplay-wise, since you're playing a beatstick, so you weren't putting points in those anyway. The class was designed for Big Stupid Fighters, and it does that quite well.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-05, 09:37 PM

Warhulk is a whole mess of fun in gestalt. Some combination of of barbarian, fighter, totemist, and LA+RHD for entry, then run a full BAB class alongside the warhulk. Still the dumbest thing in the party, but all you need for him to understand is "smash those" and "don't smash those".

Some of you may be asking why totemist. First read the sig. Second, if you don't want fighter, you can keep your illiteracy. Second, extra natural weapons are a blast. Third, you already have barbarian and/or figher to give BAB, you may as well take an awesome melee class that doesn't have it, since they usually have better class abilities than full bab classes. Third, Totemist has no mental stat dependencies.

TuggyNE

2012-12-05, 11:18 PM

Knowledge off-topic-ness:

All creatures have HD. Creatures with 1 HD can (or have to, I dunno) replace it with a class level.

Humanoids with 1 RHD have to, non-humanoids with 1 RHD either can or should, as far as I can tell. (Example: pixie.)

Class levels don't count for Knowledge checks.

Hmm. This would make sense logically, but do you have a source for a) replaced RHD aren't counted for Knowledge checks and b) class levels aren't counted for Knowledge checks? After all, class levels are HD, and the rule refers to "10 + monster's HD", not "10 + monster's RHD".

vhfforever

2012-12-05, 11:50 PM

While this could easily go into the 'things I want to play' thread...the idea of a high Intelligence Goliath Artificer (or Human into-Stoneblessed) who takes a level in Barbarian and then Warhulk has always been my idea of the Incredible Hulk in D&D.

Starbuck_II

2012-12-06, 01:16 AM

If you want to call me on the blind/deaf thing, the appropriate response is Spot/Listen are racial skills for most of the monstrous humanoids that can enter (usually giantkin). As for that crack about the Int? Most adventurers don't have ranks in "Knowledge: Anything At All" either, and they seem to get along just fine.
That sort of explains why some adventuers kill as first response: "Dear Pelor, what is that thing!?"
They don't know so they kill it.

Gavinfoxx

2012-12-06, 01:26 AM

Sugashane

2012-12-06, 02:25 AM

I allow them in my game. The No Time To Think is a stupid fluff penalty. If the WarHulk has 10 ranks in an INT, WIS, or CHA skill then they suddenly act as if they have zero ranks (Intimidation withheld)? Stupid.

I rule a little homebrew when I DM. When in battle I allow this rule to take place. But as soon as battle ends I give a one-to-two round cool-down before they can start using the skills. This way the penalty at least makes sense. I have heard the argument that only dumb monsters should be allowed to take the class, but if it were meant to be that then I believe a prereq should have been a 7 or under in INT.

lunar2

2012-12-06, 06:08 PM

Darth Stabber

2012-12-06, 06:55 PM

At epic levels this class picks up a lot of steam (ignoring the enforced stupidity). At epic levels everyone has the same BAB (not really bab, but bab becomes unattainable after 20), regardless of class, and this guy is getting 2str per level. This is basically the same idea as the gestalt use. Aside from gestalt/epic uses, the class only has a few corner case uses for PCs. I've never seen a PC use with levels in it (even in gestalt or epic), but I've used for npcs several times. There are numerous other melee prcs that offer more generally useful abilities, and it is generally more useful to be able to become big than to just be big all the time.

Frenzied berzerker is generally better, it has bab, and the power attack boost is arguably better, and the bonuses from frenzy push the difference into unquestionable. Iteratives + supreme cleave are an adequate replacement for mass attacks. Might tpk the party vs. Painfully stupid is fair comparison. All that and frenzied berzerker has can't die as a class ability.

And that's just one prc it has to compete with, and you don't even have to be big for fb. I could do others, but you get my point.

Venger

2012-12-06, 08:22 PM

Frenzied berzerker is generally better, it has bab, and the power attack boost is arguably better, and the bonuses from frenzy push the difference into unquestionable. Iteratives + supreme cleave are an adequate replacement for mass attacks. Might tpk the party vs. Painfully stupid is fair comparison. All that and frenzied berzerker has can't die as a class ability.

And that's just one prc it has to compete with, and you don't even have to be big for fb. I could do others, but you get my point.

well, most people who play FBs just expend all their frenzies per day in their quiet room before they start going out adventuring. the real reason you want FB is power attack. that's where all your real damage comes from at mid-high levels anyway. the frenzies are a pretty huge trap. it's the "all or nothing" trap that uberchargers get into. if you give your allies a way to nerf you (marbles or grease if you can't fly) your DM will use it too. if you nullify it (fly) then enemies and allies alike are helpless.

expend your rages in a safe place (forcecage, rope trick, time hop, step into another room or something at the beginning of the day) and you're good to go

Darth Stabber

2012-12-06, 09:01 PM

well, most people who play FBs just expend all their frenzies per day in their quiet room before they start going out adventuring. the real reason you want FB is power attack. that's where all your real damage comes from at mid-high levels anyway. the frenzies are a pretty huge trap. it's the "all or nothing" trap that uberchargers get into. if you give your allies a way to nerf you (marbles or grease if you can't fly) your DM will use it too. if you nullify it (fly) then enemies and allies alike are helpless.

expend your rages in a safe place (forcecage, rope trick, time hop, step into another room or something at the beginning of the day) and you're good to go

:smallyuk:No fun!:smallyuk:
incite frenzy is too much to fun not to share with the rogue and an already buffed cleric. Yeah, there is a risk of shredding your party to tiny bits, which is why you should ask your mates before you go down that path, but that's part of the fun of the class, the wreakless gamble. The power attack buff is just icing. Seriously, the whole "can't die" bit, the stat buffs and extra attack are where the cake is.

lunar2

2012-12-06, 09:02 PM

play a good aligned FB and take the righteous wrath feat. now you're back in control.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-06, 09:34 PM

play a good aligned FB and take the righteous wrath feat. now you're back in control.

Rage is not Frenzy. They are two different abilities, and this feat does not apply to FB Frenzy.

Besides, Warhulk is probably vastly superior to FB in terms of damage output vs anything other than single-target, because you're now making an attack against everything within reach as an attack action. Combo with Pounce and Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Valorous/etc... and you're now applying that damage to everything withn reach every swing. Now tack on Large+ size and Spiked Chain, a couple of other reach extenders, and now you're killing 30' swaths as an attack action.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-06, 09:43 PM

Rage is not Frenzy. They are two different abilities, and this feat does not apply to FB Frenzy.

Besides, Warhulk is probably vastly superior to FB in terms of damage output vs anything other than single-target, because you're now making an attack against everything within reach as an attack action. Combo with Pounce and Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Valorous/etc... and you're now applying that damage to everything withn reach every swing. Now tack on Large+ size and Spiked Chain, a couple of other reach extenders, and now you're killing 30' swaths as an attack action.

The problem is single attack roll. If a fb charges and misses one of his attacks, he has more, and with supreme cleave, if he can drop one thing in one hit he can drop everything. 95% of the warhulk's mass killing and 200% of it's abilities against a single target.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-12-06, 10:37 PM

@ righteous wrath: while frenzy and rage aren't the same thing, they can be active at the same time. Righteous wrath allows you to differentiate friend from foe and choose not to attack while you're raging. It works as long as you have at least as many rages as frenzies, which should be a given.

@ FB versus WH: why choose? the two aren't mutually exclusive in their prerequisites and skillful weapons exist. Can you say splat? :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II

2012-12-06, 10:48 PM

I seriously want to play an Orc Siege Engine (Orc Fighter 2/ goliath bonded stoneblessed 3/ goliath barbarian 1/ warhulk 10/ hulking hurler 3/ bear warrior 1)

seriously, strength 59 before magic items.

Why not just be a Cancer Mage? More than 2000 str before magic items assuming more than 1999 days after getting class.

herrhauptmann

2012-12-06, 11:14 PM

The barbarian/warhulk needs a skillful weapon. It won't grant him as many iterative attacks as the barbarian/FB, but getting an extra one against your individual enemy is still worth it. Even more so if you've gotten pounce in some way.

Even better, anyone can get Mountain Rage with three levels of Stoneblessed. Heck, my version of the Hulk was a strongheart halfling with War Hulk.
Wasn't that the basis behind Tiny McBig Large Huge?
Kobold with slight build. (Small, considered tiny if useful)
Takes levels in stoneblessed:Goliath.
Then barbarian, with goliath ACF? (rage and go to large size)

I don't remember how he got the Huge size category though.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-06, 11:43 PM

The problem is single attack roll. If a fb charges and misses one of his attacks, he has more, and with supreme cleave, if he can drop one thing in one hit he can drop everything. 95% of the warhulk's mass killing and 200% of it's abilities against a single target.

Skillful Weapon or Legacy Champion solves this problem. As does anything with access to Divine Power. Or has a War Chanter in the party.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-07, 12:11 AM

Skillful Weapon or Legacy Champion solves this problem. As does anything with access to Divine Power. Or has a War Chanter in the party.

So you're going to extra effort to get iteratives back, and therefore you aren't using any of the really nice replacements that preclude full attack.

And even then you are still slightly better off against a single target as a fb.

And skillful weapons are glib solution, I would rather just have it work, and be able swap out weapons, as opposed to only getting to use weapons with a specific weapon, of which I likely only have one. Being able to switch from a greatsword to a guisarme is pretty big, and I can use the enchant effects to take weapon abilities I actually want.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-07, 09:32 AM

So you're going to extra effort to get iteratives back, and therefore you aren't using any of the really nice replacements that preclude full attack.Which is what, exactly? Attacking every opponent within reach as an attack action is the ability you go into it War Hulk for. Everything else just builds up to that.

And even then you are still slightly better off against a single target as a fb.In exchange for being a walking TPK. Against more than one opponent, War Hulk comes out MUCH higher damage output per round.

And skillful weapons are glib solution, I would rather just have it work, and be able swap out weapons, as opposed to only getting to use weapons with a specific weapon, of which I likely only have one. Being able to switch from a greatsword to a guisarme is pretty big, and I can use the enchant effects to take weapon abilities I actually want.

I've never, in my thirty years of gaming, had a character who needed to switch weapons, with the exception of 'first round fire crossbow, drop it, and draw melee weapon of choice', in ANY game system I have ever played in.

Spiked Chain. Reach weapon that can hit up close, and is two-handed for PA bonuses. Obviates both greatsword (oh no, a grand total of ONE point of damage on average extra... be still my beating heart), and Guisarme (since it can attack up close with full PA bonuses, unlike armor spikes which would be a light offhanded weapon). There is no need for any other weapon.

Full BAB6/War Hulk4/Legacy Champion10. BAB of +13, so you lose the +16 iterative attack. You get the class abilities of War Hulk 10, with the 3/4 BAB of Legacy Champion. It's only a couple of points worse than Skillful, and since that isn't going to net you an extra attack, it makes Skillful kinda pointless.

herrhauptmann

2012-12-07, 09:55 AM

I've never, in my thirty years of gaming, had a character who needed to switch weapons, with the exception of 'first round fire crossbow, drop it, and draw melee weapon of choice', in ANY game system I have ever played in.

You forgot the part where it's easier, and cheaper to enchant just one weapon. Rather than trying to enchant two separate weapons. Having two "main weapons" is one of the disadvantages of TWF taken to extremes, because you're only using one at a time.
You can sort of get away with it at low levels, when you're switching between a non-MW sword, and a non-MW bludgeoning, and a non-MW piercing weapon. But at higher levels, where a warrior might sink half his cash into a weapon?

Also, what book is legacy champion? Complete Champion?

Waddacku

2012-12-07, 10:24 AM

Also, what book is legacy champion? Complete Champion?

Weapons of Legacy.

Venger

2012-12-07, 10:27 AM

Wasn't that the basis behind Tiny McBig Large Huge?
Kobold with slight build. (Small, considered tiny if useful)
Takes levels in stoneblessed:Goliath.
Then barbarian, with goliath ACF? (rage and go to large size)

I don't remember how he got the Huge size category though.

where is tiny? I tried googling his name and every combo of size categories and kobold and came up empty. I remember reading about him. didn't he count as everything from fine to colossal, or am I remembering incorrectly?

didn't he have any psywar for expansion? that would I think get him huge and gargantuan while raging (though I don't remember how he got colossal)

Necroticplague

2012-12-07, 03:08 PM

Ummm, was their some errata on the miniatures handbook? I keep seeing people say that the final ability can be used as an attack action in this thread, but my cop of miniatures says that the ability is a standard action, then confusingly states that this allows them to get multiple attacks per turn. Was it errated to an attack action at some point, or is this just peoples' reasonable house rule?

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-07, 03:44 PM

toapat

2012-12-07, 03:59 PM

where is tiny? I tried googling his name and every combo of size categories and kobold and came up empty. I remember reading about him. didn't he count as everything from fine to colossal, or am I remembering incorrectly?

didn't he have any psywar for expansion? that would I think get him huge and gargantuan while raging (though I don't remember how he got colossal)

Tiny VonBigMcLargeHuge, he worked on houserules mostly

Venger

2012-12-07, 06:41 PM

Tiny VonBigMcLargeHuge, he worked on houserules mostly

ah, thanks. darn boolean search.

looking at the thread, the only houserule that really seems in play is that he can count as human and kobold at the same time. I was right about psywar for expansion/compression.

I wanted to say jotunbrud, but remembered kobolds didn't qualify and couldn't take human blood. so I was on the right track.

I don't know that planar touchstone feat.

good thread. good concept.