Help! How do solo wizards or psions handle rogues?

[roguemetal]

As the title states.

Psions and wizards need their priority in combat, and a good rogue can often mess that up.

What powers/spells can really help me out when I can't see my enemy?
Are their contingencies for when the enemy might be undead or mind-blank?
What if the rogue is a shadowdancer?
How do I protect my body when using divination?

[Techwarrior]

Rogues and Precision Damage:
Blur, laugh at their inability to pierce your concealment unless they have specifically built for it. Concealment negates Sneak Attack remember. Not sure if there is a psionic equivalent, I have a horrible memory when it comes to psionics.

Unable to see:
I keep Detect Alignment in two forms for this. Detect Evil/Good will get most of your enemies, and the ones it doesn't you can Detect Thoughts. See Invisibility and eventually True Seeing.

What's the power level?

[A_S]

Don't know much about psionics, so I'll leave that to the experts, but a few tips for arcane casters:
-Mindsight (easily obtainable with a Mindbender dip) isn't blocked by Mind Blank without a houserule (albeit a pretty reasonable one). Mindless enemies are tougher.
-The Foresight/Celerity combo means that even if a sneaky type does get the jump on you, you can just kill them (or escape, or whatever else you want to do ) as an immediate action before their attack takes effect. Foresight only comes into play at high levels, though, so Contingency might be a good choice before then (get creative with what you do with it...having the trigger condition be "I cast Feather Fall," for instance, lets you have one spell of your choice constantly ready to cast as an immediate action).
-Shadowdancers don't matter much, because of the above two factors.
-Divination is the same as any other action that takes a long time: Do it somewhere safe, with guards you trust, and be ready to stop it and defend yourself if necessary. Just because you've spent the previous round casting some 10-minute-casting-time monstrosity doesn't mean you can't take an immediate action to cast Celerity > Time Stop when the heat gets hot.

[roguemetal]

Concealment negates Sneak Attack remember.

I actually hadn't remembered that... :smallredface:



Detect Evil/Good

Oh... yes... I almost always use Detect Thoughts which works less. This is perfect.



What's the power level?
Sorry, forgot to mention that... level 10++.... we're going from level 10-X in tourney style fashion.

[Techwarrior]

Since Mindsight is being discussed to handle Rogues... I should point out that at level of op, the Rogue probably has Darkstalker which negates it seeing as Mindsight claims to work 'as Blindsight', plus it does some other nifty stuff. I'd have to check... Libris Mortis IIRC, but that's how I remember it reading and how I've always seen it interpreted.

[Randomguy]

At higher levels, Prying Eyes and Greater Prying Eyes get a good spot check, letting you beat a hide check, and Arcane Sight should let you see the glowy auras on all their magic gear. A summoned giant spider can use tremorsense to locate the enemy as well. As soon as you catch sight of them, use glitterdust.
If you get telepathy then Mindsight is the best option.

If the enemy's a shadowdancer, then Dimensional Anchor or Anticipate Teleportation would help, but otherwise use the same tricks.

There are a bunch of spells that make you immune to sneak attack at higher levels, like Elemental Body and all the Heart of X spells, but Blur is the lowest level core option.

[Techwarrior]

Darkness, Obscuring Mist (1st Level, also Core), a Smokestick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#smokestick) (Core Alchemical Item), anything that gives Concealment negates Sneak Attack.

[eggs]

Detect Hostile Intent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm). No save. No SR. Know when someone wants to kill you, and don't be flatfooted/surprised when they ambush.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

See Invisibility plus Permanency, mundane low-light vision, Darkvision plus Permanency: Rogue is nearly incapable of hiding.
Mindbender 1 plus Mindsight: automatically detect him from 100 ft. away.
Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire: you have heavy fortification.
Persistent Fell Drain Death Armor or Fire Shield: he gets a negative level every time he hits you.
Contingency + Blur: he can't sneak attack.

Danger Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dangerSense.htm) (fully augmented) plus Incarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/incarnate.htm): you have Improved Uncanny Dodge, he has to beat your manifester level by four levels to sneak attack you.
Elfsight and Psionic Darkvision and Ubiquitous Vision plus Incarnate: Rogue is nearly incapable of hiding.
Mindbender 1 (adapted) or Telepath 5 ACF plus Mindsight: automatically detect him from 100 ft. or 5 ft. per manifester level away.
Share Pain: Psicrystal and Vigor shared: You take half damage from all sources, and have a huge temporary HP cushion.
Psionic Contingency + Concealing Amorpha: he can't sneak attack.

[Morcleon]

Fly. :smallamused:

Also, there's concealing amorpha (and greater) that are essentially psionic blur and displacement, but aren't negated by true seeing.

Detect magic/arcane sight actually works quite well. Unless they've gone VoP, or have magic aura'd all of their magic items, they'll light up like a christmas tree. And best part, no amount of divination blocking will work if said blockers are targeted on the person. :smallbiggrin:

[roguemetal]

See Invisibility plus Permanency, mundane low-light vision, Darkvision plus Permanency: Rogue is nearly incapable of hiding.
Mindbender 1 plus Mindsight: automatically detect him from 100 ft. away.
Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire: you have heavy fortification.
Persistent Fell Drain Death Armor or Fire Shield: he gets a negative level every time he hits you.
Contingency + Blur: he can't sneak attack.

Danger Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dangerSense.htm) (fully augmented) plus Incarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/incarnate.htm): you have Improved Uncanny Dodge, he has to beat your manifester level by four levels to sneak attack you.
Elfsight and Psionic Darkvision and Ubiquitous Vision plus Incarnate: Rogue is nearly incapable of hiding.
Mindbender 1 (adapted) or Telepath 5 ACF plus Mindsight: automatically detect him from 100 ft. or 5 ft. per manifester level away.
Share Pain: Psicrystal and Vigor shared: You take half damage from all sources, and have a huge temporary HP cushion.
Psionic Contingency + Concealing Amorpha: he can't sneak attack.

Wow. This is exactly what I was looking for. :smallsmile:
Mindsight could even be used with a Spellweaver form Assumed Supernatural ability to detect all minds in 1,000 miles I suspect.

[Rubik]

Concealing Amorpha is definitely good for preventing sneak attacks, and Touchsight (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) makes it impossible to sneak up on you (especially when Widened) unless they can keep behind cover the entire time, so just stay away from walls...and, I suppose, the floor, in case they have Earth Glide. But Burrowing Power even makes cover obsolete.

[Ganorenas]

Should you be able to grab your own gear, a safe investment would be a +1 Heavy fortification Soul-fire mithril buckler...

No ASF, +2 shield ac (cast magic vestment?), immune to sneak attacks and critical hits, and a lot of other nasty effects from soul-fire

If you have the cash, it is a great buy for any caster, why use your spell slots when you can have it passively (I also end up having trouble spending my gold as a wizard after a certain point, and this is always on my list)

Otherwise I second Foresight, especially if you know that you'll be fighting tournament style, just pop it with Freedom of Movement (grapplers can hurt you also) and Fly to avoid the sneak attack situation completely (30ft sneak attack range, unless they happen to be an assassin with Sniper's shot for unlimited sneak attack range), Stoneskin for DR that will end most bows and xbows

Oh, force cage works wonders to keep them from getting you (if they didn't grab a combat teleport item/ability.

[Bagger]

Fly
Celerity
Blur
Glitterdust
invis (and greater)
web


in general:

1) Pop Fly
2) fly high and pop BFC (battlefield control)
3) see 2nd
4) when target is trapped use nuke spell
5) ????
6) profit (and a dude that hates you)

[Pandiano]

The rogue expects melee-incapable squishy.
If you are level enough:
contingency (spell) or craft contingent spell:
- Trollshape (condition: attacked without being aware of that attack beforehand)
- Tensers Transformation (condition: being trollshaped)

share spell with your familiar and watch the rogues facial expression.

[GreenSerpent]

The rogue expects melee-incapable squishy.
If you are level enough:
contingency (spell) or craft contingent spell:
- Trollshape (condition: attacked without being aware of that attack beforehand)
- Tensers Transformation (condition: being trollshaped)

share spell with your familiar and watch the rogues facial expression.

Or use Body of War (SpC) to become a Warforged Titan. That might be better, as you're then a Construct.

[Morcleon]

Or use Body of War (SpC) to become a Warforged Titan. That might be better, as you're then a Construct.

Share it with your familiar. Now you have two Titans. :smallamused:

[Story]

-Mindsight (easily obtainable with a Mindbender dip) isn't blocked by Mind Blank without a houserule (albeit a pretty reasonable one). Mindless enemies are tougher.


Anything for Good aligned characters?


Also, I'd recommend becoming Necropolitan, unless any of your opponents are specifically built for Greater Turning much higher leveled undead. And even then, you can easily get +10 turn resistance.

[Psyren]

Anything for Good aligned characters?

Telepath 5. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a)

[Story]

Is there any easy way to get telepathy for Good Wizards?

[Morcleon]

Is there any easy way to get telepathy for Good Wizards?

Improved Familiar. Get a pseudodragon familiar, which has 100 ft telepathy. Give it mindsight.

[Psyren]

Is there any easy way to get telepathy for Good Wizards?

- Shape Soulmeld: Shedu Crown + Open Least Chakra (though this one isn't totally ironclad from a Mindsight perspective.)
- Skin of Proteus + Metamorphic Transfer, pick a form with Su Telepathy. This one costs money but gives you a ton of options besides telepathy.

[A_S]

Since Mindsight is being discussed to handle Rogues... I should point out that at level of op, the Rogue probably has Darkstalker which negates it seeing as Mindsight claims to work 'as Blindsight', plus it does some other nifty stuff.
The phrasing is "much like blindsense," not "as Blindsight," and the feat text then goes on to indicate exactly what it means by that phrase: It tells you what square a creature is in (like blindsense) but doesn't negate concealment for unseen foes (like blindsight would). I see no indication that Mindsight inherits the property of being-defeated-by-Darkstalker from blindsense, especially since Darkstalker's text clearly and unambiguously lays out exactly what it works against.

[Morcleon]

The phrasing is "much like blindsense," not "as Blindsight," and the feat text then goes on to indicate exactly what it means by that phrase: It tells you what square a creature is in (like blindsense) but doesn't negate concealment for unseen foes (like blindsight would). I see no indication that Mindsight inherits the property of being-defeated-by-Darkstalker from blindsense, especially since Darkstalker's text clearly and unambiguously lays out exactly what it works against.

Indeed. Also, it doesn't make sense from a fluff standpoint either. Just because you're good at hiding against improved physical senses, doesn't give your mind any particular protection.

[Psyren]

Perhaps; Touchsight, however, pinpoints the target, defeating both Darkstalker and concealment.

[Morcleon]

Perhaps; Touchsight, however, pinpoints the target, defeating both Darkstalker and concealment.

If you use Burrowing Power, then it can penetrate through walls too. Other than line of effect blocking, I don't believe there's anything that can block touchsight. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaeso]

I think it's fair to point out that most of these solutions, while reasonable, presume that the wizard in question is either built especially for this encounter (mindbender dip), or has prepared for it, negating the surprise.

Yes, a wizard can prepare for a lot but not for everything. A cunning/sadistc DM could find chinks in a wizards spell preparation and hit his magical weak spots for massive damage.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think it's fair to point out that most of these solutions, while reasonable, presume that the wizard in question is either built especially for this encounter (mindbender dip), or has prepared for it, negating the surprise.

Yes, a wizard can prepare for a lot but not for everything. A cunning/sadistc DM could find chinks in a wizards spell preparation and hit his magical weak spots for massive damage.

Except when he can't. There are lots of ways to, in general, have sufficient preparation that only an absurdly narrow set of events can really potentially cause harm to you in general.

[Psyren]

I think it's fair to point out that most of these solutions, while reasonable, presume that the wizard in question is either built especially for this encounter (mindbender dip), or has prepared for it, negating the surprise.

Yes, a wizard can prepare for a lot but not for everything. A cunning/sadistc DM could find chinks in a wizards spell preparation and hit his magical weak spots for massive damage.

I see this argument a lot and I always find it strange. Why do you specifically have to be preparing for a darkstalking rogue for mindsight or touchsight to be useful? They've both got myriad other uses - navigating magical darkness, defeating illusions, detecting ambushes, targeting spells through fog and other obstructions etc. And the latter can find your car keys or the tv remote in seconds.

[Kaeso]

I see this argument a lot and I always find it strange. Why do you specifically have to be preparing for a darkstalking rogue for mindsight or touchsight to be useful?

Because obtaining mindsight through the mindbender has a pretty hefty opportunity cost in skill points which most will choose to spend in other prestige classes. IMHO (but I could be wrong), the beguiler is the only class for which it is "natural" to dip mindbender, since they gain an additional benefit from the dip (advanced learning is postponed a spell level) and can actually afford the skill points (since most are beguiler class skills).

You'd need a specialised build for a mindbending wizard.

[Eldan]

But think about it. How many campaigns do you have which last past level 9-ish (when you can get your mindsight online) and you never face a stealthy opponent?

[Story]

You could use one of the Loremaster secrets to save 8 skillpoints.

[Spuddles]

I think it's fair to point out that most of these solutions, while reasonable, presume that the wizard in question is either built especially for this encounter (mindbender dip), or has prepared for it, negating the surprise.

Yes, a wizard can prepare for a lot but not for everything. A cunning/sadistc DM could find chinks in a wizards spell preparation and hit his magical weak spots for massive damage.

Telepathy is universally useful, mindsight is a total hax pseudo-divination ability that foils tons of stuff. Not really sure what your point is. Looks like you just want to point out... I'm not sure what?


Because obtaining mindsight through the mindbender has a pretty hefty opportunity cost in skill points which most will choose to spend in other prestige classes. IMHO (but I could be wrong), the beguiler is the only class for which it is "natural" to dip mindbender, since they gain an additional benefit from the dip (advanced learning is postponed a spell level) and can actually afford the skill points (since most are beguiler class skills).

You'd need a specialised build for a mindbending wizard.

Ehh, it just means your knowledge skills will be at half rank for the first 5 levels. You can still afford to keep spellcraft and concentrate at max, with a 16 int and being human, or 18 otherwise.

Wizards are unfairly drowning in skill points, but don't have anywhere spectacular to spend them.


But think about it. How many campaigns do you have which last past level 9-ish (when you can get your mindsight online) and you never face a stealthy opponent?

You get mindsight at level 6 :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Because obtaining mindsight through the mindbender has a pretty hefty opportunity cost in skill points which most will choose to spend in other prestige classes.

There are other ways to get telepathy - see the lists of stuff. My favored way (Skin of Proteus + MT) works with any build and has far more uses than mere telepathy too.