Duo char Combinations?

[Raendyn]

Well, playgrounders

A friend and myself plan to join a lvl 12-18 campaign and I was wondering...

Are there any duo combinations in D&D. Something that 2 chars can do together to rly shine? neither me nor my friend have decided what to play but we agreed that it would be a nice idea to create chars that combo well with each other.

basically I am looking for ideas on the builds, just the general idea of the build and the combo-trick you thought about those 2 chars.

do not use setting specific books save the eberron ones, no tomes, no persist, no polymorph, planar binds,no unearthed arcana.

try to avoid summoning too pls, we have a druid dedicated on summoning and a wizard that focuses on buffing. looking for something competent, so dont go under teir 2, unless there's something rdy good. cheese allowed but dont do sick things that will cause the dm to give us the ^look^.

thanks in advance for your help

[BowStreetRunner]

Complete Adventurer features three sets of prestige classes built around the idea of a duo that might be found working together.:
The Daggerspell Mage and Daggerspell Shaper
The Nightsong Enforcer and Nightsong Infiltrator
The Shadowbane Inquisitor and Shadowbane Stalker

[Magesmiley]

Depending on the bent of the campaign, one (non-combat) combination that a friend of mine and I found to be fun was a sneak and a face. The face character specialized in talking and keeping everyone's attention. Which let the sneak do all sorts of somewhat unethical things unnoticed while the face kept everyone busy. (We'd split any goodies afterwards.) Not for everyone, and obviously not as useful in combat, but fun to play.

[eggs]

One easy way of making a tag team is to pair an actor and a facilitator for some set of actions. Like a grappler and a sneak attacker, or an aura-debuffer and a character using save-or-die/suck/lose effects (like a poisoner, caster or possibly DFA).

Bracelets of Spell-Sharing from the DMG2 are expensive, but they open a lot of possibilities with this, often in juncture with Extend Spell to make 1-round buffs like Wraithstrike share effectively.

And there's always fear-stacking.

[Morph Bark]

Two casters, with one creating hordes of undead, the other focusing on AoE evocation spells using Lord of the Uttercold.

Available at every viable Tier.

[Giegue]

An enchantment specialist wizard and a powerful save debuffer, such as a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade. The basic idea of this combo is that enchantment spells are typically nasty save or sucks, and with a debuffer they are FAR easier to land. Mind-effecting immunity tends to hurt this combo, but most good enchanters have other save or sucks outside their school.(in particular spells of the Necromancy school, Necromancy plays surprisingly well with an enchanter).

Another fun one is the "two man party" of an Arcane caster/TOB Class/Jade Phoneix Mage and a Cloistered Cleric with the Kobald and Trickery domains. You get a full arcane caster, full divine caster, melee fighter and skill-monkey....all with just two characters. You can reverse the rolls and make a combat cleric and a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster if you want an arcane skill monkey and divine melee warrior as well.

If your allowed 3rd party classes the Courtier from D20 Rokugan paired with a combat-focused character could be fun. The courtier is the king of non-combat encounters and the best face in the game, but is poor in an actual fight. Pair a courtier with a powerful combatant then you could have an interesting "princess and bodyguard" type pair. My personal choice for the combat character would be a TOB class, probably a warblade, but could be anything really, even a caster so long as it's at it's best in combat.

[Raendyn]

Complete Adventurer features three sets of prestige classes built around the idea of a duo that might be found working together.:
The Daggerspell Mage and Daggerspell Shaper
The Nightsong Enforcer and Nightsong Infiltrator
The Shadowbane Inquisitor and Shadowbane Stalker


cant get how those combo? save the nightsongs that gein few minor +1-2 to skill checks the others dont combo at all, they just dont ruin each others playstyle. I get that they are built with the idea that they can play together but they dont benefit each other that much, if at all.


Depending on the bent of the campaign, one (non-combat) combination that a friend of mine and I found to be fun was a sneak and a face. The face character specialized in talking and keeping everyone's attention. Which let the sneak do all sorts of somewhat unethical things unnoticed while the face kept everyone busy. (We'd split any goodies afterwards.) Not for everyone, and obviously not as useful in combat, but fun to play.

unfortunately its too combat based and too railroaded to make use of this. nice idea though, I've tried it before, its badass if played properly. :nale:


Bracelets of Spell-Sharing from the DMG2 are expensive, but they open a lot of possibilities with this, often in juncture with Extend Spell to make 1-round buffs like Wraithstrike share effectively.

And there's always fear-stacking.

they look sexy...

Two casters, with one creating hordes of undead, the other focusing on AoE evocation spells using Lord of the Uttercold.

Available at every viable Tier.


nice idea but DM had a re-set system between each session that wont allow us to accomplish the army building.

An enchantment specialist wizard and a powerful save debuffer, such as a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade. The basic idea of this combo is that enchantment spells are typically nasty save or sucks, and with a debuffer they are FAR easier to land. Mind-effecting immunity tends to hurt this combo, but most good enchanters have other save or sucks outside their school.(in particular spells of the Necromancy school, Necromancy plays surprisingly well with an enchanter).

eggs said about that. its tempting but the hexblade aside from what he does in this combo is very sub-par character. he will be/feel as sidekick to the mage. Can this be done with 2 competent chars that can also stand on their own?



Another fun one is the "two man party" of an Arcane caster/TOB Class/Jade Phoneix Mage and a Cloistered Cleric with the Kobald and Trickery domains. You get a full arcane caster, full divine caster, melee fighter and skill-monkey....all with just two characters. You can reverse the rolls and make a combat cleric and a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster if you want an arcane skill monkey and divine melee warrior as well.

If your allowed 3rd party classes the Courtier from D20 Rokugan paired with a combat-focused character could be fun. The courtier is the king of non-combat encounters and the best face in the game, but is poor in an actual fight. Pair a courtier with a powerful combatant then you could have an interesting "princess and bodyguard" type pair. My personal choice for the combat character would be a TOB class, probably a warblade, but could be anything really, even a caster so long as it's at it's best in combat.

no tomes no 3rd party no unearthed arcana, I said so at OP

[Psyren]

Google "The Wish and The Word." Then go kill Asmodeus.

[eggs]

he will be/feel as sidekick to the mage. Can this be done with 2 competent chars that can also stand on their own?
How about:
Hexblade 4/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Swiftblade 10
Feats: Dodge, Intimidating Strike (1), Combat Casting (3), Power Attack (5), Imperious Command, Brutal Strike (6), Mobility (9), Spring Attack (11), Combat Reflexes (12), Minor Shapeshift (15), Bounding Assault (17), Robilar's Gambit (18)

Important Gear: Fearsome armor from Drow of the Underdark, Sudden Stunning Weapon from DMG2

The build lacks pounce, and its damage lags a bit due to conflicting stat priorities, but the early-established Intimidating Strike+Imperious Command+Never Outnumbered+Spooky Ghost Panther combination permits standard action attacks to lock groups of targets down for a round while imposing -4 penalties to their saves. With Brutal Strike thrown into the mix, this increases to -6 (albeit with a fairly low DC on Brutal Strike until hit-assuring spells like Wraithstrike or Circlet of Rapid Casting-ed Truestrike are thrown into the mix). Plus when its gish spells really come online, it provides a great deal more flexibility than most melee builds, develops high damage potential with its buffs and becomes very hard to pin down between Mettle, Cha-to-saves, Swiftblade and Minor Shapeshift.

I think a build along those lines would allow a Hexblade to feel pretty cool while enabling a save-based ally like a Beguiler or other save-based lockdown build.

EDIT: Build slightly revised: dropping Abjurant Champion apparently doesn't make Combat Casting optional for an Arcanamach.

[Raendyn]

huh,

I was on vecations for a feew days and just came back.
I am somehow disapointed about what combos dnd has.

distract them and I pick pocket them
lower resistaces and I save or suck them
thats it, we can flank them its not a combo imo.

arent there more? even spell combinations like Ray of enfeeblement and escalated version?

[eggs]

Anything that stacks toward a victory condition seems like it would fit the bill - including most debuffs like ability damage, penalty stacking, the shaken/frightened/panicked or fatigued/exhausted ability tracks.

It sounds like almost any form of tactical play would also count - things like one character to cast Rapid Dimension Lock + Quickened Solid Fog immediately before the other drops an area Rod-Empowered Maw of Chaos, or a summoner+buffer combo that builds both ways by dropping summons to maximize the number of receptacles for mass buffs while using mass buffs to maximize the effectiveness of the summons, or even just things like AoO builds+AoO-forcing builds/Sneak Attack builds+sneak attack-generating builds, or in really rudimentary combinations, a build to buff allies or isolate targets combined with a build to make the best use of those buffs or isolated targets (like volley archers alongside Dragonfire Inspiration specialists or blasters alongside planar bubble-users).

And there are plenty of abusive tricks like spellblade tennis or paired idiot crusaders to break the action economy apart.

[Chilingsworth]

What's an "idiot crusader?" (Assuming it's more than a crusader with int as a dump stat.)

[eggs]

What's an "idiot crusader?" (Assuming it's more than a crusader with int as a dump stat.)
It's a trick with the Crusader recovery mechanic that lets it recover all its maneuvers as a free action every round by having as many maneuvers available as maneuvers known.

It might not be the best example as a pair, except that an overwhelmingly often-recommended fix for White Raven Tactics is to treat the maneuver as one of the times where a character doesn't count as its own ally. In those cases, a pair of characters that can use WRT each round (like an idiot crusader) can keep taking actions at progressively lower and lower initiatives, until the game just falls apart.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A summoner and a bard work famously together. You don't need to spend time building undead armies (although the shortcut for that would be Fabricate), just a few good summons would be all you need.

The Bard, of course, goes Bard/Warblade/War Chanter. War Chanter's capstone Song of Legion gives all allies the same BAB as his HD. So even 1 HD minions now have 17-18 BAB. Including iterative attacks. Plus the bonuses he can get by twisting DFI and IC together. I was getting 1 HD monsters with something like +40 attack bonuses with this combo, and a whole LOT of d6's on every swing.

Sure, they're speedbumps with lousy HP. But they're speedbumps with lousy HP and a whole PILE of d6's in damage, and a decent chance of actually hitting something. So more like cruise missiles. Summon up four or five of 'em, and something is going to have a very bad day.

[TheTick]

Pathfinder has a whole stack of 'Teamwork (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/teamwork-feats)' feats no one ever uses, maybe see if you can port those in?

[BowStreetRunner]

Honestly, all of the classes in 3.5 are more or less designed to work as part of a team. You can find elements in any class that work better with help from another class. For instance, any TWF melee build will work better with a buffer like a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard. It might be easier if you just choose two base classes that you like and then ask the Playground to help you focus the pair to work together.

[navar100]

If you were playing Pathfinder, joy to the combo of Vitalist and Cleric. If you thought in combat healing was useless, it's sublime with these two. Cleric channels energy. Vitalist gathers all the d6s of everyone into one pool then disperses them to who needs them most. Cleric Channels 5d6 to five people. Vitalist has 25d6 worth of healing to disperse. Can give it all to one character, give one character 13d6 and another 12d6, and so on.

[javijuji]

2 friends of mine decided to play 2 kenku rogues. Not only did they flank and have opportunist. But they used an ability (dont remember name right now) which allowed them to move people around after hitting them. Effectively generating AoO for the other teammate.

[navar100]

Crusader or Warblade with White Raven maneuvers and anyone. :smallbiggrin:

[Gwendol]

Wasn't there a discussion involving combining two body-guard type PrC's a while back? Each would declare the other the subject of their care and thus both gaining various bonuses/attacks against assailants. Can't remember the name of the class or where to find it though!

[Dissonance]

One interesting idea you could try would be a pair of wizards or a wizard/sorcerer character combo. Each would have a different focus; one on lockdown and the other on AOE burst/dangerous zones. the obvious synergy being one locks them down while the other one lights them up.

example: one casts web, the other casts fireball.

They could also take powers that can be used in creative ways to compliment each other.

example: grease a weapon, telekinesis it away.

Basically make one an absolute debuffing/annoying monster and the other a cataclysmic catalyst of doom.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druid + Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard)

Both take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a Fleshraker Dinosaur.

The Bard should optimize for Inspire Courage with DFI. At level 8+ he'll be adding +9d6 fire damage to everyone's attacks, including all the animals. He should go something like Silverbrow Human Savage Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. He can use a shortbow when he's not spending actions to cast or sing. Two flaws (Love of Nature (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30) and Noncombatant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#noncombatant)), feats should be Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, Wild Cohort, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Words of Creation, and Rapid Spell. Use the Bardic Knack ACF in PH2, Healing Hymn in CC, and trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart in ECS. You'll need to get cross-class ranks in Handle Animal. Get a versatile selection of spells, maybe even a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) to get access to more spells known, and start every fight with (Lesser Rod of Quickened) Haste. Note that Dragonfire Inspiration is a noninstantaneous magical fire, so each time an opponent takes damage from it they'll have to make a Reflex save or catch on fire per DMG p303-304.

The Druid should get another Fleshraker Dinosaur for his animal companion, and he can do summoning, crowd controls, and melee depending on what the situation needs. He should probably be a Strongheart (FRCS) Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), and he should stay single-classed Druid. Two flaws (Bestial Instinct and Love of Nature), feats should be Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning, Wild Cohort, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, Ashbound, and Multiattack. Items should definitely include a Ring of the Beast (CC). Your Summon Nature's Ally spells will get Greenbound animals, which can immediately use their Wall of Thorns spell-like ability on top of opponents to completely screw them. Your summoned creatures will benefit from Dragonfire Inspiration, so get creatures that have a lot of attacks (Lions are a favorite). Between Kelpstrand, Sleet/Ice Storm, and Call Avalanche, plus Summon Nature's Ally I for a Greenbound Dire Bat to use Wall of Thorns and spam Entangle, you've got some of the best crowd control in the entire game. You've got plenty of damage spells like Arc of Lightning, (Lesser Rod of Extended) Creeping Cold, and (Rod of Empowered) Fire Seeds (berry bombs). You can use (Lesser Rod of Chained) (Circlet of Rapid Casting) Enrage Animal at the start of every fight, but Animal Growth isn't as good since it can't target greenbound creatures and post-errata you retain your own type when you wild shape.

[Chained Birds]

I always liked the combo with High Crit guy using this PF feat: Butterfly String (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) and x4-x5 Crit Weapon guy with Crit Feats.

[Chilingsworth]

The combo Biffoniacus suggests looks like a good one to me, but one thing: Isn't Song of the Heart a feat, not an ACF?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The combo Biffoniacus suggests looks like a good one to me, but one thing: Isn't Song of the Heart a feat, not an ACF?

Per the Bard class description in ECS, you can trade any specific bardic music ability for that feat.

[Godskook]

Two archer, a bard and an artificer. The artificer provides gear and front-liners in the form of constructs. The bard provides skill-power, DFI, and being just a general party face.

And if your DM allows potion-access to infusions, the easy-access to Bane will help amplify your damage, too.

[Darth Stabber]

Depending on the bent of the campaign, one (non-combat) combination that a friend of mine and I found to be fun was a sneak and a face. The face character specialized in talking and keeping everyone's attention. Which let the sneak do all sorts of somewhat unethical things unnoticed while the face kept everyone busy. (We'd split any goodies afterwards.) Not for everyone, and obviously not as useful in combat, but fun to play.

The old rogue and bard combo. Tons of fun! Summoner and Sneak Attacker.

My favorite: Large Hulking Hurler + small Swordsage, and give the swordsage armor spikes with the throwing and returning qualities.

Swordsage readies a standard action to use a maneuver on impact.
Hurler throws Swordsage.
Swordsage uses readied maneuver.
Returning activates, pulling the Swordsage back to the Hurler.

Fastball special becomes Yo-yo special.

[animewatcha]

What about super tripper plus dungeoncrasher combo? Floor counting as wall for dungeoncrash purposes.

[Corlindale]

Warlock + Spellthief

Not the most optimized, but there's good synergy here. The main trick is that the spellthief can borrow most of the warlock's all-day buffs at no cost to the warlock - so you have two characters with permaflight, invisibility, see invis and all the other fun stuff. Would make for a good infiltration-team.

[gr8artist]

The old rogue and bard combo. Tons of fun! Summoner and Sneak Attacker.

My favorite: Large Hulking Hurler + small Swordsage, and give the swordsage armor spikes with the throwing and returning qualities.

Swordsage readies a standard action to use a maneuver on impact.
Hurler throws Swordsage.
Swordsage uses readied maneuver.
Returning activates, pulling the Swordsage back to the Hurler.

Fastball special becomes Yo-yo special.

This is the funniest thing I've seen in weeks. Thank you, sir... I now have an awesome boss-fight to plan.
On a side note, anyone have a good link to swordsage?

[herrhauptmann]

This is the funniest thing I've seen in weeks. Thank you, sir... I now have an awesome boss-fight to plan.
On a side note, anyone have a good link to swordsage?

Make the hurler also a bloodstorm blade? This way the swordsage also bounces and hits other enemies. And the hurler can also use his maneuvers when he throws the swordsage.

[Darth Stabber]

This is the funniest thing I've seen in weeks. Thank you, sir... I now have an awesome boss-fight to plan.
On a side note, anyone have a good link to swordsage?

I've used it as a big set piece battle before, and since the hulking hurler had a second iterative attack which he used to throw one of his 4 goblin chain trippers. Also keep in mind no member of the party had a positive strength modifier meaning the 2nd level trippers were doing a good job of keeping the 9th level party flat on their butts. Once the sorcerer got the bright idea to use black tentacles it was resolved in short order, but they were scared out of their minds for 3 rounds.

[Gnorman]

That is a pretty brilliant piece of work, and I love the image of an ogre tossing around multiple spiky goblins.

[Gwendol]

Got it! The discussion back then was to pair up a couple of devoted defenders (Sword and Fist), and watch the frustration grow with the opposition. Check out the class abilities and see for yourself:
Harm's way, Defensive strike, and Deflect attack.
There's an infinity loop argument to be made there, but even without that the duo combo will have a lot of fun. Let one of them get Spell Reflection, and another a tower shield perhaps, and keep switching places depending on the type of attacks incoming.

[Gwendol]

And here's an old thread on that topic: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102581