Holy Warrior Cleric Optimization [3.5]

[Tokuhara]

I know that on the surface, the Holy Warrior Cleric ACF (Pathfinder Chronicles) is underwhelming: Fighter BAB and HD for both Domains (Yikes). However, I honestly think that this could put the final nail in the 3.5 Paladin's coffin. You are a full 9th level caster with a Full BAB.

So my question is this:

I am coming to a campaign with a Human Holy Warrior Lightbringer (Destroy Undead)/Prestige Paladin dip/Knight of the Raven build for a Horror Campaign.

Any way I can optimize this to be a balanced Divine Gish who can take on Werewolves, Undead, and Anything else my DM can throw at me?

[Snowbluff]

Well, it kills the 3.5 Paladin, but the PF one is still the only viable combat healer in PF.

Ordained Champion (CC) is pretty beastly. Gains channel spell (The awesome move-action kind), progresses turning, a Smite with no alignment requirements, damage reduction and weapon bonus like the Abjurant Champion, and an ability to use your Wis in place of Str (actually rather useless for the cost).

Combo with a Smiting Spell and a Spell-Storing Weapon, and Reach out and Touch Smite Someone.

Protip: The smite damage bonus is based on your Effective Turning Level, so if you can boost that you are Golden. Are you using PF-style Smite?

[Tokuhara]

Well, it kills the 3.5 Paladin, but the PF one is still the only viable combat healer in PF.

Ordained Champion (CC) is pretty beastly. Gains channel spell (The awesome move-action kind), progresses turning, a Smite with no alignment requirements, damage reduction and weapon bonus like the Abjurant Champion, and an ability to use your Wis in place of Str (actually rather useless for the cost).

Combo with a Smiting Spell and a Spell-Storing Weapon, and Reach out and Touch Smite Someone.

Protip: The smite damage bonus is based on your Effective Turning Level, so if you can boost that you are Golden. Are you using PF-style Smite?

my only issue is that Ordained Champion IIRC doesn't advance casting to full power. I'm already a level behind with Knight of the Raven (9/10 Casting with Full BAB and an anti-undead theme), and in a Horror campaign, I expect to see oodles of Undead

[ngilop]

Im sort of confused here.

You want to be balanced but at the same time optimized..?

really just going cleric 20 is all one would need

unless by balance you mean no 9th level spells?

then You could go warpriest to knock you out of a few caster levels.

or just be a cleric 20. after all the cleric is the greatest divine 'gish' in the game.

[Tokuhara]

Im sort of confused here.

You want to be balanced but at the same time optimized..?

really just going cleric 20 is all one would need

unless by balance you mean no 9th level spells?

then You could go warpriest to knock you out of a few caster levels.

or just be a cleric 20. after all the cleric is the greatest divine 'gish' in the game.

My goals, just to be clear:

I want Full BAB & 9th level spells. I want to be balanced between being good in Melee and being a strong caster. Admittedly, I am going to lose 1 level, but I'm getting a Domain (Sun) and Smite Undead. The raven is just gravy.

And we are using pure 3.5 with any books allowed

[Snowbluff]

You already have Ordained Champ's Smite everything. And your Turning level progresses with OC. Even if you Lost the 1 from KotR and 2 from OC, you still get 9th level spells.

Also, talk to your DM if Battle Blessing works with your character.

If you don't want Fist of the Gods and the free quicken on War spells (Rather redundant if you get Battle Blessing), you can take just 3 level of OC.

[Tokuhara]

You already have Ordained Champ's Smite everything. And your Turning level progresses with OC. Even if you Lost the 1 from KotR and 2 from OC, you still get 9th level spells.

Also, talk to your DM if Battle Blessing works with your character.

If you don't want Fist of the Gods and the free quicken on War spells (Rather redundant if you get Battle Blessing), you can take just 3 level of OC.

I misremembered the Spellcasting advancement table. I thought 17 was the last level you get 8th level spells and 18 was the first 9th level spell. Toku made a whoopsie.

The problem is that it says Heironious or Hextor are the deities for the PrC, and as Lawful Good, that kinda eliminates Hextor. I know that if I buttered my DM up (perhaps with a bottle of tequila) I could squeeze Iomedae, but who would Iomedae be opposed to in the Pantheon? Asmodeus? Zon-Kuthon? Who?

[Gavinfoxx]

My goals, just to be clear:

I want Full BAB & 9th level spells. I want to be balanced between being good in Melee and being a strong caster. Admittedly, I am going to lose 1 level, but I'm getting a Domain (Sun) and Smite Undead. The raven is just gravy.

And we are using pure 3.5 with any books allowed

So, you want one of the most powerful divine characters around, perhaps the best fighter in the game, and at a tie with the best caster in the game?

Cleric 20. Seriously. Gets full BAB with a single persisted spell. Problem solved. You're 'balanced' in that you can do multiple hideously powerful things, which this forum describes as 'hideously overpowered'. But in a way that is balanced -- you can do EVERYTHING.

[Tokuhara]

So, you want one of the most powerful divine characters around, perhaps the best fighter in the game, and at a tie with the best caster in the game?

Cleric 20. Seriously. Gets full BAB with a single persisted spell. Problem solved. You're 'balanced' in that you can do multiple hideously powerful things, which this forum describes as 'hideously overpowered'. But in a way that is balanced -- you can do EVERYTHING.

The thing is that I don't need the persisted Full BAB spell this way, and I net an average of 1 more HP/Level (the same as 2 constitution). Plus, Iomedae doesn't have the best domains out there (War, Good, Law, Glory, Sun). They're good, but not amazing.

That, and I feel this ACF is underutilized. With a party that so far includes a Dread Necromancer, a Satyr Bard, and a Half-Orc Barbarian, I kinda fit in (minus 2 of the three mentioned is EVIL) on the power scale. The Satyr Bard player is doing this because she likes the race in spite of the flaws. I'm actually trying to bring the party's total tier up. One must not look solely at the per-character tier, but the collective party's tier. Once Tier 1 character amongst a varied tier party isn't going to ruin things especially if the player plans on using tactics that don't have him overshadow the party and if the DM is clever and builds encounters that let the lower tier players shine. If the enemy bard uses Inspire Courage, the Satyr Bard can Countersong it. I'm not saying that I couldn't've just annihilated Meathead A, but she got a chance to shine. And I'm happy to give her her spotlight time.

Plus, my DM literally told me, "Go Nuts." Normally, he's a "PHB Only" DM, but he understands that I like to challenge myself. 9 times out of 10, I pick an oddity class (Duskblade, Crusader, Incarnate, etc.) simply so I can challenge myself, because I know how to optimize. Heck, I took a monk and turned him into a complete beast. Granted, if I showed the build on the boards, I'd be laughed off the forums, but I took Monk and turned it into a devistating archer.

Overall, here's what I have to say with our gaming group:

1. Blasters are often more beneficial to the party than Controllers, due to the DM often either using critters with High Saves or spread out guys.
2. Hit Dice & "Hard" AC are usually more beneficial than being a God Caster, since the creatures tend to move past the guy in fullplate and has an AC where he can't be hit normally and has enough HP where if he is hit, it doesn't matter and goes after the squishy wizard who likely has 1/3 the tank's HP and 1/16 his AC. Usually, this ends with a healer having to save the wizard's butt.
3. Monk isn't unplayable, since half the time a monk has been in the party, he blows Round 1 to double move up to Meathead A and FoB's him into oblivion. Does monk mechanically still suck? Yes. But un our group, monk is a viable option, as is Fighter and Paladin.
4. We get random loot drops, so half the time, we have to improvise with the original plan. For instance: I was the party wizard in a 3 man band and I got a Cloak of Wisdom. I decided to take Zen Archery so I could hit more often with my ranged touch spells. Was it optimal? Heck no. But sometimes, DM's will throw curveballs for loot. After the cloak, I begged for a monk's belt to drop so I could add some of the wisdom I had (I think I had a +2 before the cloak) to my AC just to mitigate the meatheads rushing past the fighter to take a swing at me. At the time, we were level 4-ish.

So if anything there helps explain my point, you're welcome.

[Snowbluff]

Random loot? Pick up Ancestral Relic so you can get one of your items to be what you want it to be.

[Tokuhara]

But waiting until Level 3 for it removes a first level feat that I have to spend on Mounted Combat for Prestige Paladin 1. God I hate feat taxes...

[Tokuhara]

So does anyone else have any input they want to throw into the communal pool of intellect here?

One last thing: I'm planning on utilizing Exalted Feats to their fullest

[Snowbluff]

Well, for ancestral relic, you can't make an expensive enough item to have some specific bonuses until later anyway. I think it's at level 9 the feat allows a +3 total weapon bonus.

[Tokuhara]

Maybe I should show the feats I was considering:

1 – Servant of Heaven, Consecrate Spell (Human Bonus), Exalted Turning (Flaw), Dynamic Priest (Flaw)
3 – Mounted Combat
6 – Divine Might
9 – Light of Aurifar
10 – Enduring Life (KotR Bonus)
12 - Empower Turning
13 - Lasting Life (KotR Bonus)
15 – True Believer
18 – Exalted Smite

The reason behind Exalted Turning and Light of Aurifar is that with Destroy Undead, these = 6d6 more damage. Thanks to Knight of the Raven, I get Sun Domain, getting this feat the first instance I can get it after Sun Domain. Empower Turning gives me +50% damage with my DU. The only oddities are Consecrate Spell (kept hearing rumors that it is AMAZING, but it just adds the Good Descriptor, True Believer which is mostly a space filler, and Exalted Smite which should've been a part of the freaking class feature.

[tyckspoon]

The only oddities are Consecrate Spell (kept hearing rumors that it is AMAZING, but it just adds the Good Descriptor..

Well, it lets you combo into things that trigger on the (Good) descriptor, if you can find enough of them to make it worthwhile. It also makes half the damage of your spells untyped, so it bypasses Energy Resistances, which is pretty nice if you want to build a blaster and not use the standard routes (Everything Is Fire + Searing Spell meta, for example.) I wouldn't bother with it if you don't intend to do a lot of blasting, tho.

[Tokuhara]

Well, it lets you combo into things that trigger on the (Good) descriptor, if you can find enough of them to make it worthwhile. It also makes half the damage of your spells untyped, so it bypasses Energy Resistances, which is pretty nice if you want to build a blaster and not use the standard routes (Everything Is Fire + Searing Spell meta, for example.) I wouldn't bother with it if you don't intend to do a lot of blasting, tho.

so realistically, drop sanctify for a mounted combat, then grab ancestral relic?