elvencraft bows and feats.

[Lost in books]

In the elvencraft description it says that they are built thick and that they function as a club or a staff when fighting melee. Also that enchantments have to be added separately for the melee part and the bow part. So that makes me think that for all effects when used in melee it is a staff so I can enchant it with bludgeon abilities like disruption (the undead killing property) and for the bow part I have to give it other enchantments.

But my DM reads it as "functions" is not the same as "is" so I can only enchant it as a bow and for the melee "function" only generic enchantments that don't specifically call for a melee weapon or type, so disruption doesn't qualify as it specifically calls for a bludgeon melee weapon but flaming works because it is generic (but i still have to pay for the ability twice if i want it melee and ranged).

So then I ask what about if I cast magic weapon on the elvencraft bow. He says I have to choose what ability (bow or melee) it goes to and I argue that it is not like an enchantment that it should apply to the whole weapon as the spell affects the one weapon as a whole and not a particular part. Especially since he allows such spells to affect double weapons like the gnome hook for just one casting. He says it is different because that is a full weapon and does not "function as" but it is inherently a weapon.

SO here are my questions:

1. Do elvencraft bows qualify you to use feats meant for clubs or quarterstaffs? like fighting styles etc.

2. Can you enchant the melee side of the elvencraft bow as a bludgeon weapon (club or staff) or only generic.

3. When you cast a spell like magic weapon that could affect both uses of the elvencraft bow, do you have to cast it twice?

4. What about spells that affect only melee or ranged, is the elvencraft bow permanently banned from receiving spells that affect the melee weapons side?

5. What about making a greatbow elvencraft? Does the quarterstaff damage increased in size too? or does it functions as a longstaff?

What is the concensus of the playground? any official/sage/errata ruling?

Thank you.

[Nich_Critic]

I doubt if you're going to get any kind of official ruling or consensus, and where the RAW is confusing, it's the DM's job to make a call. But, for what it's worth, here's how I would rule each of your questions:

1. Do elvencraft bows qualify you to use feats meant for clubs or quarterstaffs? like fighting styles etc.

A: Yes, as long as you are using it as a quarterstaff or club (So not while shooting arrows, but yes for taking attacks of opportunity or striking with the bow/club as a melee attack)

2. Can you enchant the melee side of the elvencraft bow as a bludgeon weapon (club or staff) or only generic.

A: Yes, you can enchant it as though it were a club or staff

3. When you cast a spell like magic weapon that could affect both uses of the elvencraft bow, do you have to cast it twice?

A: No, I would rule that it works like a double weapon

4. What about spells that affect only melee or ranged, is the elvencraft bow permanently banned from receiving spells that affect the melee weapons side?

A: It can receive either kind of spell, but the spell only applies for that kind of attack. You can cast shillelagh (noting that it must be oak and non-magical), but the two size increases only apply to the club or quarterstaff attacks, not arrows fired from the bow

5. What about making a greatbow elvencraft? Does the quarterstaff damage increased in size too? or does it functions as a longstaff?

A: As far as RAW is concerned, there is no such thing. I don't know what the longstaff stats are. I'd try to pick a set of stats that doesn't seem too unreasonable. In this case, I'd make the result a 1d8/1d8 double weapon

[Lost in books]

To me that sounds logical and fair. That is exactly how I think they intended the elvencraft bow to work. My DM says that the elves just made a sturdy bow and because it is mentioned that "the bow functions as" and function is not the same as is equal to that means is not a real melee weapon. In a way I can see his logic but I think the intent was to be used as melee like a true melee weapon as well. Hopefully more people weight in on this subject and I can convince him to change his mind. Especially since I think elvencraft rocks so much, but not with his interpretation.

[Ashtagon]

...
SO here are my questions:

1. Do elvencraft bows qualify you to use feats meant for clubs or quarterstaffs? like fighting styles etc.

2. Can you enchant the melee side of the elvencraft bow as a bludgeon weapon (club or staff) or only generic.

3. When you cast a spell like magic weapon that could affect both uses of the elvencraft bow, do you have to cast it twice?

4. What about spells that affect only melee or ranged, is the elvencraft bow permanently banned from receiving spells that affect the melee weapons side?

5. What about making a greatbow elvencraft? Does the quarterstaff damage increased in size too? or does it functions as a longstaff?

What is the concensus of the playground? any official/sage/errata ruling?

Thank you.

I read only the first paragraph of Nich's replay, but I agree. Also note that I probably wouldn't allow the item in my campaigns, as it grants improbable abilities in a non-magical context. But were I to allow it...

1. I'd rule that any feat meant for a club or staff would function when using an elvencraft weapon. For all intents and purposes, an elvencraft weapon is both a shortbow and a club (or longbow and staff), but only one on any given round. At the start of your turn, decide whether it is being used as a bow or a club; it remains so until the start of your next turn. This is similar to how I rule double weapons (start of your turn, decide if you're wielded it as 1hw, 2hw, or 2wf).

2. It is considered a bludgeoning weapon for purposes of enchanting the melee aspect of the weapon.

3. I'd let one casting affect the whole weapon, regardless of mode (just as one casting affects both ends of a staff normally). However, some spells won;'t make sense for both modes of the weapon, in which case it simply won't affect the mode in question.

4. If a spell would only affect one aspect of the weapon, it can only affect that aspect. So as Nich noted, shillelagh only affects the clubbing aspect.

5. I'd make an elvencraft greatbow have clubbing stats as if a quarterstaff (same as an elvencraft longbow's clubbing aspect). Yes, I suppose this is slightly sucky, but real life quarter-staves were significantly longer than even the fluff given to greatbows.

[Cikomyr]

I find the whole idea of refusing to consider an Elvencraft bow as a melee weapon for the purpose of enchanting it with melee-weapon magic is a bit... silly.

It's not like the enchantment requires a metaphysical acknowledgement of the item to be a "weapon" for it to work. The whole point is that you have to make violent physical connection between the enchanted object and the target for the magic to work.

Technically, you could enchant horseshoes, a frying pan or a bottle with melee weapon enchantment.

[Ashtagon]

Technically, you could enchant horseshoes, a frying pan or a bottle with melee weapon enchantment.

Only if they were masterwork :smallwink:

[Cikomyr]

Only if they were masterwork :smallwink:

Hmmm.. darn, you do make a point there...

[Lost in books]

Lol, you guys are funny! But yes, I see the thinking on both sides of the aisle. I suppose he thinks like Ashtagon where he may just not allow it because he thinks it is overpowered. I need to research to see if there are any real world examples, i remember reading something but it may have been an oriental fantasy thing. What is funny is that he would allow the magical version Swordbow or something like that. Oh well, I'll research when I get time. If not then I'll have to stick with a regular bow and spam arrowmind but it is a waste of resources on arrows as the way I play my archer is to ensure I have arrowheads for most DR counters.

I just think that Bow and spiked gauntlet or armor is repetitively boring, I see too many of those builds. (Bow or x-bow or reach, + spike gauntlets/armor)

[Big Fau]

If the Elvencraft Bow's rules are causing problems, there's always the Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow (Secrets of Zen'Drik). It has the same function, but different rules tied to it.

[Lost in books]

Is that 3.5 legal? Sorry I don't know all the books. I recall something about it, i think it has one blade on one tip. If he allows this one then I will have to use it, but finding a Yuan-ti to loot from will be an adventure in itself if he even allows it. On the other hand the reason I liked the elvencraft is that it give me all the physical damage styles, Blunt for staff, slash and pierce for arrows. Plus as a staff you can use as a double weapon if TWF. But thank you for the information, I really could not remember any other bow that threatened immediate squares. :)

[Big Fau]

Is that 3.5 legal? Sorry I don't know all the books. I recall something about it, i think it has one blade on one tip. If he allows this one then I will have to use it, but finding a Yuan-ti to loot from will be an adventure in itself if he even allows it. On the other hand the reason I liked the elvencraft is that it give me all the physical damage styles, Blunt for staff, slash and pierce for arrows. Plus as a staff you can use as a double weapon if TWF. But thank you for the information, I really could not remember any other bow that threatened immediate squares. :)

Yes, it's 3.5-legal. Eberron wasn't printed until after 3.5 had been on the market for a while.