[PF] Do summoned creatures count in the CR

[the clumsy bard]

So here is a ridiculously stupid question... maybe?

Say a group is fighting a wizard / witch / sorcerer who then casts summon monster x.

Would the creatures be added to the encounters challenge in terms of xp or are they considered part of the initial encounter and included in the wizard / witch / sorcerer 's abilities and therefore the challenge.

[Sandwich8080]

No. It says in the DMG near the XP table that summoned creatures don't count. The example they use is that if a spellcaster used fireball instead of summon monster, it wouldn't affect the CR.

[the clumsy bard]

This is true.

The difference being that if you look at the situation from a logical point of view.

Fireball -> instantaneous

Summon Monster X -> duration of X rounds.

Also of note. Summoned creatures change the action economy

4 PCs vs 1 caster

4 full round actions vs 1 full round action
4 swift actions 1 swift action

or

4 standard actions vs 1 standard action
4 move actions 1 move action
4 swift actions 1 swift action

Now if I summon 2 level below as the caster and happen to roll a 4 on 1d4 I end up with 5 creatures helping me for my caster level rounds.

This would change the action economy tremendously.

4 full round actions vs 6 full round actions
4 swift actions 6 swift actions

or

4 standard actions vs 6 standard actions
4 move actions 6 move actions
4 swift actions 6 swift actions

Given a fireball can kill players and it will effect combat... I still think if I am able to summon creatures that have spell like abilities close to fireball or even a smidgen below firebally even scorching ray or something... I would be getting a reliable amount of rounds of a creature casting said spell or using a similar ability while my caster can continue to cast other spells. Also given the fact that summon monster states the creatures act immediately upon being summoned... I am only losing the casters turn i return for the monsters actions... Now assuming the caster is higher level then the PCs in this situation the monsters are more then likely a threat and I would think that the summoned creatures pose more of a threat or challenge then a fireball.

[jaybird]

Yes, Conjuration as a school does, in fact, have more good spells then Evocation :smallwink:

[Jeraa]

A raging barbarian is more of a threat then a non-raging one. Should using rage increase the CR of a barbarian then? A singing bard is more of a threat then a silent one, so should the CR increase? A Power-Attacking fighter is more dangerous then one using normal attacks, so should the CR increase?

All of a classes features (spells, feats, etc.) are already taken into account when determining its CR. Using, or not using, a specific ability doesn't change that. Think of a set CR as more of an average. Sometimes, the creature is stronger then that, sometimes weaker. Over time, it all averages out. Rather then having a changing CR every time, the game just simplifies it into one static CR.

Yes, it does lead to some strange situations. In 3.5, a 1st level druid is CR 1. A wolf is CR 1. An encounter with a level 1 druid and a non-companion wolf is CR 2. A druid with a wolf companion is still only CR 1, as the companion is already figured into the druids CR.

[Sandwich8080]

Yes, it does lead to some strange situations. In 3.5, a 1st level druid is CR 1. A wolf is CR 1. An encounter with a level 1 druid and a non-companion wolf is CR 2. A druid with a wolf companion is still only CR 1, as the companion is already figured into the druids CR.

Maybe a level 1 druid without an animal companion is CR 0? :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

This is true.

The difference being that if you look at the situation from a logical point of view.

Fireball -> instantaneous

Summon Monster X -> duration of X rounds.

Also of note. Summoned creatures change the action economy

Slow does all those things, as does Evard's black tentacles, hold person, haste, grease, color spray, dominate monster, etc., etc. Should those up the XP as well?

Really, the summon X line is in no way shape or form more threatening than most spells of a similar level.

[mattie_p]

Then why do previously cast animate dead change the CR of the encounter? Or a cleric who encounters multiple undead, rebukes them, and pwns them into his or her personal army? Yeah, I personally think that rule to be dysfunctional.

Or - Cleric 20 casts gate in 1st round, summons Solar. Still a CR 20 encounter?

[Deophaun]

Then why do previously cast animate dead change the CR of the encounter?
Same reason why previously cast planar bindings, or previously cast cloud kills (need for that iron golem that's pounding on you), or even previously cast permanent images change the CR: because they are previously cast and so do not impact on the current strength of your opponent.

Also, you cannot dispel a skeleton or suppress it with an anti magic field, and you can't ignore it if you have a circle of protection up. Summoned creatures are significantly more vulnerable than the real things.

[mattie_p]

Same reason why previously cast planar bindings, or previously cast cloud kills (need for that iron golem that's pounding on you), or even previously cast permanent images change the CR: because they are previously cast and so do not impact on the current strength of your opponent.

Also, you cannot dispel a skeleton or suppress it with an anti magic field, and you can't ignore it if you have a circle of protection up. Summoned creatures are significantly more vulnerable than the real things.

But animate dead is a class feature. Called creatures (cannot be suppressed in AMF) are a class feature. By that logic, magical traps (created via Craft Wondrous Item and spell access) are class features, and should provide no XP. Inconsistency is no excuse.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

But animate dead is a class feature. Called creatures (cannot be suppressed in AMF) are a class feature. By that logic, magical traps (created via Craft Wondrous Item and spell access) are class features, and should provide no XP. Inconsistency is no excuse.But they aren't part of the features that foe has allocated for that encounter.

If a wizard casts Summon Monster V to send an elemental at his opponents, that's one less baleful polymorph or cone of cold or whatever he could have had for the fight. If he used a elemental he planar bound the day before or a magical trap he crafted last week, he still has all his spell slots for the fight. He's basically bringing more power than he "should" have into that fight which increases the CR.

As always, CR system isn't perfect (by which I mean it's all kinds of broken) but I can at least see the logic in this particular rule.

[jindra34]

But animate dead is a class feature. Called creatures (cannot be suppressed in AMF) are a class feature. By that logic, magical traps (created via Craft Wondrous Item and spell access) are class features, and should provide no XP. Inconsistency is no excuse.

True, but there presence and use does not nessecitate the expenditure of daily resources and/or actions. If I bound a demon to myself yesterday, that has no impact on my capabilities for today.

[Deophaun]

But animate dead is a class feature.
I'm trying to find where I use the phrase "class feature" anywhere in this thread. Can you point it out for me?

[Jeraa]

I'm trying to find where I use the phrase "class feature" anywhere in this thread. Can you point it out for me?

I did in post 5. Kind of.


All of a classes features (spells, feats, etc.) are already taken into account when determining its CR.

Which was probably a poor choice of words, as it isn't totally accurate. Some class features can increase the CR of a fight, like casting a spell to summon a demon the day before, leaving the caster with a full spell list and demon for the battle.

[Deophaun]

I did in post 5. Kind of.
That's fine, but I didn't, and he was quoting me when he started talking about class features. :smallbiggrin:

BTW, it should be pointed out, Gate is a calling, not a summoning. It does up the CR. Gate is also broken, so I don't look to it as an example of how the rules should work.

[Jeraa]

The ruleing from the 3.5 FAQ should still stand, as Pathfinder didn't change anything that would matter in this circumstance (and Pathfinder supposedly being backward compatible, it should still work the same):


Do characters receive experience for killing a summoned monster? What about undead created with animate dead or an outsider called with planar ally?

As a general rule, any creature whose presence on the battlefield is a direct result of another creature using one of its special abilities (such as summoning) during the battle doesn’t grant XP to characters defeating it. This is because the monster is counted as part of the challenge provided by the summoning monster. A pit fiend’s Challenge Rating (and thus the XP reward granted for defeating him) already takes into account the fact that he can summon allies; without that ability, he’d be worth less XP.

However, there are plenty of situations where a DM should make exceptions to this general rule. Any time that a creature can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally.

Basically, if it uses resources the monster could of used elsewhere in the battle (actions, spells, whatever), it does not increase the CR.

[mattie_p]

I apologize for quoting you directly, Deophaun, but the comments you made sparked a generic reply, you just happened to be in the line of fire. There are so many ways that spellcasters break the system, that I agree with the 3.5 FAQ - don't take XP away from the PCs. And I giggle a little that a druid's animal companion is already taken into account with the CR - much like the fighter's bonus feat, I presume?

[Runestar]

But animate dead is a class feature. Called creatures (cannot be suppressed in AMF) are a class feature. By that logic, magical traps (created via Craft Wondrous Item and spell access) are class features, and should provide no XP. Inconsistency is no excuse.

Let's put it this way.

There is a big difference between facing a spellcaster who then proceeds to use precious actions to summon in aid (which leaves him unable to do anything else, and the PCs can deal with him and the summons as they appear), vs a spellcaster who begins play with summons already in place, and is free to pelt the party with spells while they waste actions taking down the mooks.

And while summons may use up spell slots, spell casters tend to come with more slots than they can use in a single 5-round encounter anyways. For a high lv wizard capable of casting, say, 3 5th lv spells, starting the fight with 1 slot less is no real loss when they are already struggling to unload as many spells as they can.

They are more of just guidelines anyways. :smallwink:

[mattie_p]

Let's see. Time stop, quicken + standard spell, belt of battle, (not to mention cerebremancer + schism) yes, spell casters are completely limited!

[Deophaun]

Let's see. Time stop, quicken + standard spell, belt of battle, (not to mention cerebremancer + schism) yes, spell casters are completely limited!
And if the worst that spell caster is doing is casting summon monster spells, count yourself lucky :P

[mattie_p]

I agree. But RAW, the XP value of a Fighter 20 = the XP value of a caster 20. I see a problem with that, and have made some adjustments depending on how I have the opponent(s) act.

[nedz]

I agree. But RAW, the XP value of a Fighter 20 = the XP value of a caster 20. I see a problem with that, and have made some adjustments depending on how I have the opponent(s) act.

this basically.

Consider a wizard who chooses all useless spells — against one who chooses all good spells. They are the same CR by RAW, but in reality you should probably adjust them in some way.

That said: Summoning is over-rated, or at least it's of medium power.
Smart PCs will just ignore the summons and go for the caster.