Shurikens!

[Loki Eremes]

Yo there fellas!
Im making a ninja centered build and i began pondering 'bout shurikens.

At first i tough this weapons were crappy, but after reading a bit about them made me rethink using them.

I saw a thread in the forum some days ago, they talked a lot of this weapon, how to do tons of things and houseruling other ones....but they never explained HOW to do it (i mean, they never referenced feats or books)

well....lets get started.


1. Sudden Strike: If you draw them from concealment and use them, your oponent is Flat-footed, right?
Drawing a shuriken, as RAW, is a free action (i wont be disscusing that topic), but drawing them when they are concealed????
(not talking about surprise rounds)

2. Enchanting: shuriken are treated as ammo for the purpose of enchanting them. I saw a lot of people saying (price relation) 50 shuriken +1 = anyweapon +1..... but shuriken entry states that they come in a 5 unit pack.
sooooo.....how it really is?

3. Quantity: also read that in 3.0 you can throw 3 at the same time with 1 hand... is it the same in 3.5? (i dont think so but it doesnt hurt to ask :smalltongue:)



= EDIT = (just one read my last post xD)
some days since last post.....

People, maybe not a good place for a new question but is related and will be answered easily i think.

What about POISONS? i mean, 1 dose = 1 shuriken?
how does it work with ammunition???

[Lord Il Palazzo]

For question 1, the slight of hand skill page of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) says that "Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity." The Hidden Blade skill trick from Complete Scoundrel can make it a move action if you have 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand and the Quick Draw feat.

For question 2, check the first table on this SRD page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm). The base price for a magic item is the price for "50 arrows, crossbow bolts, shuriken, or sling bullets" and the table a little further down for Uncommon Weapons says the enhancement applies to 50 shurikens.

For question 3, I've never seen anything in 3.5 that says you can, but that doesn't mean it isn't somewhere I haven't looked. Someone who knows the system better can probably answer better.

[Jeraa]

2. Enchanting: shuriken are treated as ammo for the purpose of enchanting them. I saw a lot of people saying (price relation) 50 shuriken +1 = anyweapon +1..... but shuriken entry states that they come in a 5 unit pack.
sooooo.....how it really is?

All ammunition (which include shuriken) are enchanted in group of 50, regardless of how the mundane versions in the Player's Handbook are sold. So 50 +1 shurikens cost 2,301gp total, or 46 gold, 2 copper each.


3. Quantity: also read that in 3.0 you can throw 3 at the same time with 1 hand... is it the same in 3.5? (i dont think so but it doesnt hurt to ask )

No. In 3.5, you can only throw 1 at a time, but they do 1d2 damage, and are treated as ammunition for enchanting and determining if they break when thrown. As they are also still a thrown weapon, you get to add your Strength modifier to the damage as well.

3.0 shuriken only did 1 point of damage, but you could throw up to 3 as a single attack. They were not treated as ammunition, but were the same as every other thrown weapon. They had to be enchanted individually (not in a batch of 50 like ammunition is), and did not break when thrown. However, you could not apply your strength modifier to the damage at all. Not even to just 1 of them.

[BowStreetRunner]

Per Rules Compendium p92 "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible." Note that this does not apply to concealed equipment on your person. It only applies if YOU are hidden. So if you have Concealment and make a successful Hide check, yes you can use Sudden Strike on a target this way.

You need a feat or skill trick to make the fact that your shurikens are concealed work to generate a sudden strike. Hidden Blade and Sudden Draw are the skill tricks you want to look at, and Flick of the Wrist is the feat you want to look at.

[eggs]

2. Enchanting: shuriken are treated as ammo for the purpose of enchanting them. I saw a lot of people saying (price relation) 50 shuriken +1 = anyweapon +1..... but shuriken entry states that they come in a 5 unit pack.
sooooo.....how it really is?
50 pieces of ammunition for the price of one.

And yes, this does get completely out of hand with Shuriken weapon enhancements like Air or Earth Elemental from the DMG2.

[Loki Eremes]

For question 1, the slight of hand skill page of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) says that "Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity." The Hidden Blade skill trick from Complete Scoundrel can make it a move action if you have 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand and the Quick Draw feat.

For question 2, check the first table on this SRD page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm). The base price for a magic item is the price for "50 arrows, crossbow bolts, shuriken, or sling bullets" and the table a little further down for Uncommon Weapons says the enhancement applies to 50 shurikens.

For question 3, I've never seen anything in 3.5 that says you can, but that doesn't mean it isn't somewhere I haven't looked. Someone who knows the system better can probably answer better.


All ammunition (which include shuriken) are enchanted in group of 50, regardless of how the mundane versions in the Player's Handbook are sold. So 50 +1 shurikens cost 2,301gp total, or 46 gold, 2 copper each.



No. In 3.5, you can only throw 1 at a time, but they do 1d2 damage, and are treated as ammunition for enchanting and determining if they break when thrown. As they are also still a thrown weapon, you get to add your Strength modifier to the damage as well.

3.0 shuriken only did 1 point of damage, but you could throw up to 3 as a single attack. They were not treated as ammunition, but were the same as every other thrown weapon. They had to be enchanted individually (not in a batch of 50 like ammunition is), and did not break when thrown. However, you could not apply your strength modifier to the damage at all. Not even to just 1 of them.


Thx Jeraa, and thx Lord il Palazzo for cultivating the ignorant masses :smallbiggrin:


Per Rules Compendium p92 "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible." Note that this does not apply to concealed equipment on your person. It only applies if YOU are hidden. So if you have Concealment and make a successful Hide check, yes you can use Sudden Strike on a target this way.

You need a feat or skill trick to make the fact that your shurikens are concealed work to generate a sudden strike. Hidden Blade and Sudden Draw are the skill tricks you want to look at, and Flick of the Wrist is the feat you want to look at.

Skill tricks are good, a shame 1 per minute, but for 2sp, they are great.
Flick of the Wrist is good....but only for melee and 1 per combat....pass.



50 pieces of ammunition for the price of one.

And yes, this does get completely out of hand with Shuriken weapon enhancements like Air or Earth Elemental from the DMG2.

Air or Earth elemental enchantments? you lost me there u.u.....

[eggs]

Air or Earth elemental enchantments? you lost me there u.u.....
Those were an example of where ammunition pricing becomes really breakable. Elemental enhancements are abilities in the DMG2 that let a weapon's user summon an elemental 1/day with a size based on the enhancement level. By shuriken prices, a level 6 Fighter could afford enough Elder Elemental shurikens to summon nine CR 11 Elder elementals per day.

But the wonkiness doesn't just apply to that particular enhancement - pretty much anything that grants the wielder a bonus that's not based on attack/damage rolls (like Manifester, Flying or Warning/Eager/Initiative weapon enhancements) comes at a ridiculous discount if you stick it on a shuriken.

[Kid Jake]

For some reason I'm suddenly imagining a swarm of dancing shurikens....

[Twilightwyrm]

For some reason I'm suddenly imagining a swarm of dancing shurikens....

And suddenly the character becomes "The Ninja of the Iron Swarm". Has a nice ring to it.

[Kid Jake]

Yes it does...very Ninja Scroll.

[Loki Eremes]

For some reason I'm suddenly imagining a swarm of dancing shurikens....

Me: =D
DM: =D FU.




BTW..... i know this is getting a bit off the thread but...
Any good feats or items you recommend for a Ninja shuriken thrower???
(already have on mind : TWFs, rapid shots, point blank, farshot, Dead-eye Shot)

[BowStreetRunner]

Any good feats or items you recommend for a Ninja shuriken thrower???
(already have on mind : TWFs, rapid shots, point blank, farshot, Dead-eye Shot)

Funny you should mention this...I recently was working out a fun theoretical build based around using shurikens.

Human Monk 11/Master Thrower 5
DEX 20
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
Monk Abilities: Flurry of Blows, Greater Flurry
Bonus Feats (from Monk): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows
Master Thrower Thrown Weapon Tricks: Palm Throw, Two with One Blow, Weak Spot
Bonus Feats (from Master Thrower): Quick Draw, Snatch Arrows, Improved Critical (Shuriken)

I worked out that against a pair of opponents who were adjacent to one another and standing within 30 feet, my character would get to throw 18 shuriken for 36 potential hits. (+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4, all doubled by Palm Throw and then again by Two with One Blow)

Of course, they all did 1d2 damage with no strength bonus able to be applied, but hey, that's what the party Bard is for!

[Acanous]

CAN you apply Dancing to ammunition? I thought it could only be applied to melee weapons.

[Jeraa]

CAN you apply Dancing to ammunition? I thought it could only be applied to melee weapons.

Maybe. It depends on how you interpret it. Dancing only appears on the Melee Weapon Special Abilities Table, not the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities Table. That would seem to indicate it only works on melee weapons.

However, several special abilities specifically say that they can only be applied to melee weapons, or ranged weapons (such as Seeking or Vicious). Dancing has no such wording, so could be interpreted as available to all weapons.

Though the wording of Dancing uses melee terminology, like reach, striking adjacent foes, and not being able to take attacks of opportunity. That implies its a melee-only enchantment.

[Arcanist]

Funny you should mention this...I recently was working out a fun theoretical build based around using shurikens.

Human Monk 11/Master Thrower 5
DEX 20
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
Monk Abilities: Flurry of Blows, Greater Flurry
Bonus Feats (from Monk): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows
Master Thrower Thrown Weapon Tricks: Palm Throw, Two with One Blow, Weak Spot
Bonus Feats (from Master Thrower): Quick Draw, Snatch Arrows, Improved Critical (Shuriken)

I worked out that against a pair of opponents who were adjacent to one another and standing within 30 feet, my character would get to throw 18 shuriken for 36 potential hits. (+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4, all doubled by Palm Throw and then again by Two with One Blow)

Of course, they all did 1d2 damage with no strength bonus able to be applied, but hey, that's what the party Bard is for!

I'm curious if Healing Devotion (Luck) can make this better... :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm curious if Healing Devotion (Luck) can make this better... :smallconfused:
It'll at least eliminate the need to flip 36 coins (rolling a d2). Cutting the dice rolling in half doesn't hurt when you're looking at that many of them.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm curious if Healing Devotion (Luck) can make this better... :smallconfused:

Okay, you lost me on this one. I am familiar with Healing Devotion from CC, and it just gives Fast Healing. I even looked through the Luck feats in CS and didn't find anything that made sense. What is this Healing Devotion (Luck) and how does it fit in here?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, you lost me on this one. I am familiar with Healing Devotion from CC, and it just gives Fast Healing. I even looked through the Luck feats in CS and didn't find anything that made sense. What is this Healing Devotion (Luck) and how does it fit in here?

He meant the imbued healing (luck) feat. I recognized the trick he was aiming at because it's part of the "d2 crusader" TO item. I just didn't notice he named the wrong feat.

At least I think that's what he was getting at.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Funny you should mention this...I recently was working out a fun theoretical build based around using shurikens.

Human Monk 11/Master Thrower 5
DEX 20
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
Monk Abilities: Flurry of Blows, Greater Flurry
Bonus Feats (from Monk): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows
Master Thrower Thrown Weapon Tricks: Palm Throw, Two with One Blow, Weak Spot
Bonus Feats (from Master Thrower): Quick Draw, Snatch Arrows, Improved Critical (Shuriken)

I worked out that against a pair of opponents who were adjacent to one another and standing within 30 feet, my character would get to throw 18 shuriken for 36 potential hits. (+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4, all doubled by Palm Throw and then again by Two with One Blow)

Of course, they all did 1d2 damage with no strength bonus able to be applied, but hey, that's what the party Bard is for!

Adding Tashalastora (Psychic Warrior) would help by giving you some extra feats and giving access to Disolving Weapon Power, use it on your downtime and at the end of an adventuring day (only if you are cometely sure you won't need PP during the night) to give bit more omph to your shuriken.

[Arcanist]

He meant the imbued healing (luck) feat. I recognized the trick he was aiming at because it's part of the "d2 crusader" TO item. I just didn't notice he named the wrong feat.

At least I think that's what he was getting at.

That is precisely what I was getting at :smallredface:

[BowStreetRunner]

@Arcanist & Kelp_Panthera: Got it. That makes a lot more sense. It would in effect be like a 'Maximized' spell effect when using shuriken, only with weapon damage dice instead of spell damage dice.

The point of my build example however was to show first that there are some great options for increasing the number of attacks with a shuriken build (TWF, Imp TWF, Gr. TWF, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, Greater Flurry, and the Master Thrower tricks Palm Throw and Two with One Blow). Plus Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot helped get my Attack bonus up (Precise Shot helping keep it up in melee situations) and Weak Spot made it a ranged touch attack to hit.

On the other hand, none of these addresses the major problem with shuriken, the d2 damage. It's true that Point Blank shot raised the damage to d2+1 within 30 feet and Improved Critical could occasionally yield me another d2 of damage, but this rarely had any impact when facing a creature with even a small amount of Damage Reduction. The build was really dependent on the party buffer for serious damage potential. [Edit: I should also point out before anyone mentions it, that this build relied on the Master Thrower tricks and those prevented the character from applying any STR bonus to damage.]

[nedz]

Just stack some energy enhancements on them. 1d6 Fire, or whatever, is not stopped by DR.

[Loki Eremes]

some days since last post.....

People, maybe not a good place for a new question but is related and will be answered easily i think.

What about POISONS? i mean, 1 dose = 1 shuriken?
how does it work with ammunition???

[soveliss24]

According to the DMG, pg 296: "One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target." Nothing mentioned about treating a larger quantity of ammunition as a single weapon - seems that's just for enchantment purposes, not poison.

[ericgrau]

It's easier for ammo than a melee weapon tho, b/c you can attack more than once with poison. That's very good for spamming and hoping that your foe rolls low on a save.

The level 3 spell flame arrow can be used to give 50 shurikens +1d6 fire damage.

Bane shurikens of various types are good so you can select the one for the foe you are facing. Different metal types for DR is handy too.

You can apply both the TWF and rapid shot feats to shurikens for 3 attacks at low level. And flurry of blows for 4 attacks. Note this is "attacks" not "hits" though. At higher level to get the most hits you're better off using only 1 of those rather than eating the massive penalties. Even at level 1-3 you might only want 2. But it's a good way to make shurikens viable at low level until you get more attacks other ways. As is adding strength to damage rolls on multiple attacks when composite bows are expensive.

[JaronK]

Since someone mentioned cheaply enchanted shurikens, here's the thread on that: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11763.0

JaronK

[Blackhawk748]

Take Ascetic Stalker then just bounce between Monk and Ninja and take Master thrower, i know a guy who became a shuriken machine gun by doing this, sadly i don't know the particulars.

[Kazyan]

And yes, this does get completely out of hand with Shuriken weapon enhancements like Air or Earth Elemental from the DMG2.

What you really want to use a Shuriken with is Morphing.

Yeah. :smallyuk: The rogue gets his magic daggers for 80.05gp each and a 98% discount on future upgrades. This fixes one of the problems with TWF, at expense of shattering everything else about mundanes' balance.

[Talionis]

Fire Shuriken Spell from Spell Compedium has no duration so the Shuriken it creates last until thrown. They have much better damage than normal Shuriken and can easily be made during down time. Trick is I think it is only an Assassin and Wu Jen spell list.

Also I'd suggest feats and or magic items to increase your range.

[JaronK]

I just checked, it's Assassin only. Too bad too, it's a very cool spell.

JaronK

[Dayaz]

I'll see your assassin spell and raise it an Archivist? Dark Knowledge is worth it, since if they last until thrown you can just spam it and carefully NOT throw them into your pouch.

Also, level 3 spell = not crazy expensive wand :D 40 charges like a bawss.

[JaronK]

Archivists can't get it, as it's arcane only.

JaronK

[Dayaz]

meh, the wand thing still counts, you just need some way to get UMD as a class skill and you can be spamming Fire Shuriken for a pretty low price