Fighter vs Fighter

[Silvanoshei]

My friend wanted to duel me and said these are the Rules for the fight.

1.) This is assuming both Fighters are lv 20 & 3.5 Core Only.

2.) Minimum Amount of Fighter lv's must be lv 10.

3.) Max amount of gold you can spend is 100k gold.

4.) Only +5 LA is acceptable for race.

What build would you make to beat another Fighter of similiar options?

My first impulse would be to make a F10/C10. Items would play a huge role too. Deck of Illusions anybody? lol

[Gavinfoxx]

Sources are:

PHB
DMG
MM1
SRD

yes?

So 10 levels of fighter, LA is +5, and 5 levels of 'anything else', correct?

Or is this a level 25 fight, with 10 levels of Fighter, 5 levels of LA, and 10 levels of 'anything else'?

Do you have to duel LIKE a fighter?

What can you tell us about the rules of the actual duel, the setting and such?

[mattie_p]

What distance do you start from another? Do you (mechanus forfend) have to spot/listen to detect each other (Egads!)?

By the way, there are really only two (optimized) fighter builds, tripper and charger. Which one you go is dependent on the rules of the fight (if known in advance).

[candycorn]

There's also Gish. A bit harder in Core only, but Fighter 10 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 5 is an option. BAB 17, casts 5th level spells, caster level 9. It's a decent option for this. 5th level wizard spells would easily tip the scales in your advantage against a non-spellcaster.

[Silvanoshei]

Sources are:

PHB
DMG
MM1
SRD

yes?

So 10 levels of fighter, LA is +5, and 5 levels of 'anything else', correct?

Or is this a level 25 fight, with 10 levels of Fighter, 5 levels of LA, and 10 levels of 'anything else'?

Do you have to duel LIKE a fighter?

What can you tell us about the rules of the actual duel, the setting and such?

Correct on BookSource. LA, if chosen, is included to lv20 (20 is max lv possible). +5 LA and then 5 lvs of anything else (or a human fighter 20 etc etc). He said it would be arena style or coliseum type surrounding. Roman type, 6 acres of land or so with free limits on sky.

[eggs]

Something tells me you're going to want Fear Immunity and Elusive Target. :smallwink:

Ohp, core/SRD only. EPH psionics have better action economy than core casters, so I'd lean toward them in a 10-caster level v. 10-caster level 1v1.

[Silvanoshei]

What distance do you start from another? Do you (mechanus forfend) have to spot/listen to detect each other (Egads!)?

By the way, there are really only two (optimized) fighter builds, tripper and charger. Which one you go is dependent on the rules of the fight (if known in advance).

Gates at opposite ends, so it starts of pretty far away being 6 acres.

[ericgrau]

That's significant. You might want a combination of long range archery and counter-stealth. Plus whatever other tricks you can squeeze in there, like maybe teleportation in case he does find you so you can snipe again.

That budget is unusually low for level 20 so expect AC to be low.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

What's the rule on templates? Can we assume they count on the same total +5 LA as race?

Half-fiend/celestial for the fly speed might be nice, but I think Ghost might be the winner. Incorporiality (50% chance to ignore non-incorporial damage which seems to stack with any miss chance you can pick up and touch attacks with your weapons if you have something ghost-touch), a fly speed to keep you out of reach and the undead type to resist humanoid-specific spells if your opponent goes into caster with his 10 non-fighter levels (seems likely).

[Silvanoshei]

What's the rule on templates? Can we assume they count on the same total +5 LA as race?

Half-fiend/celestial for the fly speed might be nice, but I think Ghost might be the winner. Incorporiality (50% chance to ignore non-incorporial damage which seems to stack with any miss chance you can pick up and touch attacks with your weapons if you have something ghost-touch), a fly speed to keep you out of reach and the undead type to resist humanoid-specific spells if your opponent goes into caster with his 10 non-fighter levels (seems likely).

He didn't say templates were out, just LA can't go beyond 5. Hell yea, Ghost is a +5 LA isn't? Hohoho :smallamused:

Edit Note: Be funny if he picked ghost too, rendering our "edge" useless lol.

[Story]

You only have to take 10 levels in Fighter, right? Do you have to actually act like a fighter? Here are my suggestions

Fighter 10/ Druid 10
Fighter 10/ Wizard 10
Fighter 10/ Cleric 10
Fighter 10/ Sorceror 10

Any one of these should easily be able to win unless your opponent also went spellcaster or seriously optimized his magic items.

[docnessuno]

Fighter 10 / Psion 1 / Slayer 9 is a good build.
Fighter 10 / Druid 10 is another strong contender.
Fighter 10 / Psywar 2 / War mind 8 is a third great option.

[Psyren]

Fighter 20 with Leadership :smalltongue:

[docnessuno]

Fighter 20 with Leadership :smalltongue:

/facepalm

How could i miss the obvious?

Upping the ante:

Fighter 10 / PsyWar 2 / War mind 8 with leadership

Cleric cohort 18 with Leadership

Wizard 16 cohort with leadeship

Psion 14 cohort with leadersip

Sorcerer 12 cohort with leadersip

Druid 10 cohort with leadership

Say hello to the T1 team!

[Acanous]

Seconding Psywar. He's alllowing SRD, he won't be thinking "Psionics".

[Voidling]

My friend wanted to duel me and said these are the Rules for the fight.

1.) This is assuming both Fighters are lv 20 & 3.5 Core Only.

2.) Minimum Amount of Fighter lv's must be lv 10.

3.) Max amount of gold you can spend is 100k gold.

4.) Only +5 LA is acceptable for race.

What build would you make to beat another Fighter of similiar options?

My first impulse would be to make a F10/C10. Items would play a huge role too. Deck of Illusions anybody? lol

Whats the area or arena your dueling in, it might help decide the other options. For instance if it is a 50 X 50 flat room with a anti-magic field cover all of the room, any caster options might be null and void.

[candycorn]

Whats the area or arena your dueling in, it might help decide the other options.



Correct on BookSource. LA, if chosen, is included to lv20 (20 is max lv possible). +5 LA and then 5 lvs of anything else (or a human fighter 20 etc etc). He said it would be arena style or coliseum type surrounding. Roman type, 6 acres of land or so with free limits on sky.

I'd still lean towards wizard. You'll have See invisibility and greater invisibility, along with a ring of invisibility (for being permanently unseeable). That alone will get you close.

Prying Eyes gives you scouts throughout the arena.

Polymorph lets you get small enough to be practically unfindable.

Blink makes you hard to hit even if he does find you, as does Mirror Image.

Waves of Fatigue, followed by Ray of Exhaustion means that as long as you hit a touch attack, you can Exhaust him. Hit that after a Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement, and you have -16 to Strength, long with a -6 Dex.

Web can entangle your foe.

Fly gives you good maneuverability without gold spending, giving you more gold for gear.

Arcane Sight lets you keep an eye on his magical gear, and any spell effects he has active.

Halt undead can deal with any undead templates. From there, a single solid power attack with a 2 handed weapon will really put a dent in him. Undead have low HP, and 4d6+100 or so will cut a rather large chunk out of it. Assuming average HP, he'll have about 140 hp total, as an undead. The general way I'd finish that would be True Strike, then next round, power attack full, Attack, Quickened true strike, Attack, Attack, Attack. You'd likely not hit 3 and 4, but 1 and 2 are guaranteed, nearly.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

He didn't say templates were out, just LA can't go beyond 5. Hell yea, Ghost is a +5 LA isn't? Hohoho :smallamused:

Edit Note: Be funny if he picked ghost too, rendering our "edge" useless lol.Building on the ghost idea: What about Ghost Elf Fighter 10/Sorceror 5? I'm thinking elf because as a ghost you don't have a con score so the racial penalty doesn't hurt and the +2 dex give you a little boost on AC and ranged attack rolls. You could go halfling for small size, but I don't like the strength penalty and smaller weapons.

Start by flying out of your opponent's reach and buffing up (I'd go with scrolls or potions to keep your spell slots open). Once you're ready, manifest and try to stay within 30 feet so your Corrupting Gaze can drain the other guy's charisma to a flat-line. If the other guy dumped charisma (decent odds) you've got a ticking clock unless he averts his eyes, in which case you can enjoy your total concealment. Since the Corrupting Gaze doesn't require an action (though you can force a save as an attack action if you like) you can keep you actions free for moving to stay within range and hurl a few save-or-suck spells. (I'm thinking Hideous Laughter or possibly Web if you think the layout will allow it and you expect reflex saves to be worse than will.) Once one of those pays off, you can keep using attack actions on Corrupting Gaze or maybe switch to HP damage (if you think it would work better) with a composite longbow (this is why I wouldn't want a strength penalty) and a quiver of ghost-touch arrows. Since you're staying within 30 feet for the Gaze, don't forget your point-blank shot which you would need to pick up manyshot and rapid shot. (You've got all your fighter bonus feats so you might as well get more shots in.)

If you wanted to go psionic, be sure you double-check the rules. If the SRD was mentioned, go for it. Otherwise, I wouldn't count on it being considered "core only".

[Kazyan]

Another add to the Ghost idea: go for sundering the other fighter's flight item, if it's obvious (Wings of Flying, etc.) Then you're going to win almost by default. Sundering usually isn't that great, but in this situation, it's a permanent and powerful debuff.

[Eldariel]

Plain Fighters, whoever attacks first loses. Or it turns into a retarded archery contest 'cause neither side can actually attack in melee without giving the opponent a free full attack (5 hits with Boots of Speed) in exchange for their single hit. Fighter 10/X 10, well you get level 5 Wizard spells which should get you somewhere hopefully.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Another add to the Ghost idea: go for sundering the other fighter's flight item, if it's obvious (Wings of Flying, etc.) Then you're going to win almost by default. Sundering usually isn't that great, but in this situation, it's a permanent and powerful debuff.Similarly, if you do go with ghost and 5 levels of some kind of caster, don't forget a scroll or two of dispel magic. If you opponent also has caster levels, you might not be able to sunder a flight item, but you could dispel a fly spell (or the effects of a potion) and it's unlikely that your opponent would have wasted spell slots preparing multiples of the same buff (unless he's a spontaneous caster, of course.)

[Story]

Don't bother with ghost. Getting 5th level spells is far more important than anything you can get from LA.

Also, Necropolitan lets you get rid of your con score, as well as giving you all the nifty undead bonus with no LA or prerequisites. The only extra weaknesses you'd have as an undead (Greater Turning and Disintegrate) are irrelevant under the conditions.

Plus with Overland Flight, your opponent is unlikely to ever even be able to touch you, unless he bothered to get a magic item for flying. And with Phantom Speed, he's unlikely to be able to keep up with 240' movement. Too bad Practiced Spellcaster isn't core, or you'd be able to get a flying phantom steed.

Also, why bother hitting him? There are dozens of ways to kill him when you have 5th level spells. Hold Person + Cloudkill looks promising, though I'm sure there are better options.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Don't bother with ghost. Getting 5th level spells is far more important than anything you can get from LA.

Also, Necropolitan lets you get rid of your con score, as well as giving you all the nifty undead bonus with no LA or prerequisites. The only extra weaknesses you'd have as an undead (Greater Turning and Disintegrate) are irrelevant under the conditions.

Plus with Overland Flight, your opponent is unlikely to ever even be able to touch you, unless he bothered to get a magic item for flying. And with Phantom Speed, he's unlikely to be able to keep up with 240' movement.

Also, why bother hitting him? There are dozens of ways to kill him when you have 5th level spells. Hold Person + Cloudkill looks promising, though I'm sure there are better options.While the rest of your stuff is solid, (though I'd still say being a ghost is more fun than casting a save-or-die spell or two) Necropolitan isn't exactly "core only".

[Story]

Oops I forgot about that. Ignore all the stuff I said about Necropolitan.


Another note is that you can go into Loremaster after level 5 since you have the fighter levels to increase your max skill ranks. Whether you'd want to I'm not sure. It's basically giving up 3 feats in exchange for some skillpoints and secrets (probably low level spell slots).

[Gavinfoxx]

Are you required to be LA+5, or can you be LA+0?

Cause you should minimize LA, and not act like a fighter at all... just view the Fighter 10 as dead levels that take away from your spellcasting.

I agree with docnessuno, and add Leadership. Ghost is actually a pretty decent idea, if you want to attack from underground or something.

[Studoku]

For 60k of your equipment budget you could get a luckblade with 1 wish in it.

Should be able to do something with that...

[Gavinfoxx]

For 60k of your equipment budget you could get a luckblade with 1 wish in it.

Should be able to do something with that...

You mean candle of invocation, right?

[Eldan]

Scroll of Disjunction? That should win the fight, if it goes through.

[Togo]

Plain Fighters, whoever attacks first loses. Or it turns into a retarded archery contest 'cause neither side can actually attack in melee without giving the opponent a free full attack (5 hits with Boots of Speed) in exchange for their single hit.

Charge + grapple or disarm or even trip evens the odds quite nicely. You're a fighter, not a barbarian. Optimise a special attack form and beat him to death with it. A character with a really good disarm should be able to strip his opponent of magic items and weapons within a couple of rounds. A good grappler could go straight for the pin.

[demigodus]

My suggestion, in case you actually want to fight like a fighter, would be Fighter 10 / Psychic Warrior 10

Wield a Spiked Chain 2 handed, and use the Expansion Power (9PP to make it last 100 minutes. Cast it when the fight starts, before getting close). You now have a reach of 40 feet.

Get Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm. Between the feats and your size, you should get a +12 to both rolls. Using a 2 handed weapon will give you an extra +4 to Improved Disarm. I would suggest getting Combat Reflexes, but not sure how your Dex would look like after using Expansion.

Just in case use a +1 Ghost Touch Spiked Chain.

Now, unless your opponent figures out some way to fly, you should be able to get close, trip him, and strip him of everything before he can hope to get near you.

It will take you some time to beat your opponent to death, (unless you actually use more then 1 power for some reason), but it might be a very one sided beat down.

[Eldariel]

Charge + grapple or disarm or even trip evens the odds quite nicely. You're a fighter, not a barbarian. Optimise a special attack form and beat him to death with it. A character with a really good disarm should be able to strip his opponent of magic items and weapons within a couple of rounds. A good grappler could go straight for the pin.

Not on the first round. You only have a standard action. At most you can initiate grapple tho your chances against a fighter of equal level are middling at best on level 20 (Ring of Freedom is a pretty key item anyways due to Webs/Entangles/Monsters That Eat You/etc.). Disarm...might work.

It's hard-countered by a mundane item called "Locket Gauntlet" though so there's that, and it assumes enemy has the weapon in hand in the first place (really, it's hard for a Core level 20 Fighter to not have Quick Draw simply due to the number of feats available). It can work but if you aren't allowed to build the Fighter for this duel specifically, chances are Disarm isn't the way to go and there's no guarantee it works here anyways.


Tripping is honestly your best bet but even then you're looking at a full attack at -4 probably involving tripping you right back (since getting up is a losing proposition).

Attacking first will put you at a significant disadvantage. Best just stick to archery or potentially mounted charge (which has at least 3x damage multiplier enabling you to potentially have sufficient damage buffer to drop the enemy first).

[Acanous]

Here's two questions that may influence build choices:

Do the fighter levels have to be sequential? Do you have to take your first level as fighter?
There's some keen first-level-wizard/cleric tricks that require you to take certain feats at first level. If you don't have to START as a fighter, or if you can go fighter 6, wizard 3, prestige class 7, Fighter 4...

[Arcanist]

/facepalm

How could i miss the obvious?

Upping the ante:

Fighter 10 / PsyWar 2 / War mind 8 with leadership

Cleric cohort 18 with Leadership

Wizard 16 cohort with leadeship

Psion 14 cohort with leadersip

Sorcerer 12 cohort with leadersip

Druid 10 cohort with leadership

Say hello to the T1 team!

YOU SIR, ARE NOT EVEN TRYING! :smallfurious:

Human Fighter 10 / Stp-Erudite 3 / Slayer/7 with Leadership

Human Stp-Spell Focused-Erudite 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Psychic Theurge 7 Cohort with Leadership

Illumian Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Legacy Champion/2 Cohort with Leadership

Bamboo Spirit Folk Wild Shaping Ranger 1 / Druid 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Arcane Hierophant 5 With Leadership

Ladies and gentlemen. I present to you, the Cheddar Squad :smallcool:

[demigodus]

YOU SIR, ARE NOT EVEN TRYING! :smallfurious:

Human Fighter 10 / Stp-Erudite 3 / Slayer/7 with Leadership

Human Stp-Spell Focused-Erudite 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Psychic Theurge 7 Cohort with Leadership

Illumian Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Legacy Champion/2 Cohort with Leadership

Bamboo Spirit Folk Wild Shaping Ranger 1 / Druid 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Arcane Hierophant 5 With Leadership

Ladies and gentlemen. I present to you, the Cheddar Squad :smallcool:

Except restricted to Core only

A number of those are not core.

[Acanous]

That, and it calls out in Leadership that your Cohorts can't take Leadership.

[mattie_p]

Therefore, take thrallherd.

[Arcanist]

Off-Topic Hogwash

Except restricted to Core only

A number of those are not core.

I was adding on to the idea that he made, but okay. If you took it as a serious suggestion I apologize.


That, and it calls out in Leadership that your Cohorts can't take Leadership.

"If they were Leaders, they wouldn't be your Cohort" can hardly be called out as a direct ruling that states that you can't Leadership Cascade.


Therefore, take thrallherd.

Thrallherd + Leadership + Undead Leadership shuffle is a neat way to get around a DM who is dead set on the previously stated idea.

[mattie_p]

Off-Topic Hogwash
Thrallherd + Leadership + Undead Leadership shuffle is a neat way to get around a DM who is dead set on the previously stated idea.

Except for this:


A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability

[Togo]

Not on the first round. You only have a standard action.

From the setup, you don't start in sight of eachother, so the surprise round is a memory by the time you get to contact.


At most you can initiate grapple tho your chances against a fighter of equal level are middling at best on level 20 (Ring of Freedom is a pretty key item anyways due to Webs/Entangles/Monsters That Eat You/etc.).

It's also 40% of the guys wealth according to the set up. There's an excellent chance he can't afford it.


Disarm...might work.

It's hard-countered by a mundane item called "Locket Gauntlet" though so there's that, and it assumes enemy has the weapon in hand in the first place

No, it doesn't. You can disarm any worn item, including rings of freedom of movement, amulets, belts, etc. And if he has a locked gauntlet, and you grapple him, he really is in trouble.

[Eldariel]

From the setup, you don't start in sight of eachother, so the surprise round is a memory by the time you get to contact.

What are you talking about surprise round? You move or Charge and you only get a single attack unless you have Pounce. Approaching enemy = only single attack since you need move action to approach and thus only have standard action left.


It's also 40% of the guys wealth according to the set up. There's an excellent chance he can't afford it.

Fair. I didn't notice he dropped wealth so low. Then it's a viable approach though again, unless the character is built specifically for this fight as opposed to for general adventuring, I doubt the viability of a grapple Fighter build. Also, if both parties have Improved Grapple it's of course a route.


No, it doesn't. You can disarm any worn item, including rings of freedom of movement, amulets, belts, etc. And if he has a locked gauntlet, and you grapple him, he really is in trouble.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grabbingItems:
You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.

I'm pretty sure Ring or Belt would count as well-secured. And I'm not sure how your opponent with Locked Gauntlet is in trouble if you grapple him; he can still draw his light weapon with the other hand and slash you or make unarmed strikes or grapple-checks with no penalty.

[Telok]

Race halfling.
Strength 6, Intelligence 12, Charisma 18.
First level Rogue, then 19 levels of Fighter.
23 ranks in UMD, 5 ranks in Decipher Script, 5 ranks in Spellcraft.
Skill Focus: UMD, Magical Aptitude, and Toughness x15.

Your UMD score is [23 (ranks) +4 (synergy) +5 (feats) +4 (charisma)] 36. Which just happens to be one less than the 37 you need to roll to use a 9th level scroll.

Since you have 100,000 gp let's start at the top.
Time Stop (3,825 gp)
Prismatic Sphere (3,825 gp)
Gate: Pit Fiend (8,825 gp)
Time Stop (3,825 gp)
Gate: Death Slaad (8,825 gp)
Permanency: Prismatic Sphere (10,125 gp)
Time Stop (3,825 gp)
Fly (375 gp)
Reverse Gravity (2,275 gp)
Time Stop (3,825 gp)
Permanency: Reverse Gravity (10,125 gp)
Imprisonment: on yourself (3,825 gp)

You've spent 63,500 gold.
Blow the rest of it to hire an 18th level Wizard to come cast Freedom on your spot in a year's time.

Alternately you can just spam Summon Monster 9 at him until you run out of money for scrolls.

Edit: I got a few points on UMDing scrolls wrong. Fixed now.

[Eldariel]

Race human.
Strength, Intelligence, and Wisdom 8. Charisma 12.
First level Rogue, then 19 levels of Fighter.
23 ranks in UMD, 5 ranks in Decipher Script, 5 ranks in Spellcraft.
Skill Focus: UMD, Magical Aptitude, and Toughness x16.

Your UMD score is [23 (ranks) +4 (synergy) +5 (feats) +1 (charisma)] 33. Which just happens to be one less than the 34 you need to roll to emulate a 19 Intelligence or Wisdom to sucessfully use a 9th level scroll.

1) At 8 Int with Fighter you don't have enough skillpoints to keep UMD maxed as a human while getting the 1 rank of Decipher Script and 3 ranks of Spellcraft for the synergies cross-class.

2) You need a DC 37 roll of UMD to emulate the caster level for the scrolls; Level 9 spells come at Caster Level 17 minimum in Core.


Neither is a big issue, mind. Just some small details to fix by applying point buy and wealth to them.

[Story]

Don't limited use items cost 5 times as much in a one shot?

[Telok]

1) At 8 Int with Fighter you don't have enough skillpoints to keep UMD maxed as a human while getting the 1 rank of Decipher Script and 3 ranks of Spellcraft for the synergies cross-class.

You are correct. I will edit that to Int 10, although there is the Open Minded feat since the character has spare feats in this "build."


2) You need a DC 37 roll of UMD to emulate the caster level for the scrolls; Level 9 spells come at Caster Level 17 minimum in Core.

You do not need to emulate caster level. The check is based on the caster level needed to cast the spell, it still comes out to the same thing. But I still mis-read it. Ah well, I learned something today. I've never really played a UMDer who used scrolls, most of my games run out before level 12 and the checks are high unless you build for it.

[Eldariel]

You do not need to emulate caster level. The check is based on the caster level needed to cast the spell, it still comes out to the same thing. But I still mis-read it. Ah well, I learned something today. I've never really played a UMDer who used scrolls, most of my games run out before level 12 and the checks are high unless you build for it.

Luckily this is easily solved by investing 9k in Circlet of Persuasion; +3 to Charisma-checks, which just so happens to be exactly what you need.

And you're right, I was just using the shorthand I've memorized it through myself for.