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Dragon Ascendant
Some seek power, others are born for power. Many Sorcerers draw their power from the blood of dragons running distant in their veins, choosing to explore that power and shape it to their own ends, shaping it and using it as a foundation for power. Others, rarer yet are born for it. For those few the blood of dragons running though their blood is more than power to harness, it is who they are. For these, the Dragon Ascendants, their life centers around learning to unleash and foster that power to more than sorceress ends, to become into which they've descended. Dragon Ascendants spend little time in formal martial training preferring to rely on their innate abilities.
The Dragon Ascendant is a melee spellcaster focused on exploring its draconic lineage. Currently Dragon Disciple and Dragon Devotee do not fully explore this concept. Dragon Disciple is a bad class, it needs to expand spell casting options. Instead of redesigning and fixing the Dragon Disciple class, I've created a base class around harnessing the essence and power of dragon blood within a sorcerers veins. This class features a slower progressing spontaneous spellcasting class with Full Caster Level maxing out at 7th level spells. It also incorporates the physical changes a Dragon Disciple would go through and then some as they explore their power and become even closer to their origins.
Abilities Charisma is perhaps the most important attribute for a Dragon Ascendant as it determines their spellcasting potential. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are all important as the enhance the Dragon Ascendant's physical stats and combat prowess. Dexterity and Constitution also serve to minimize the Dragon Ascendant's poor Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Role The Dragon Ascendant is comfortable in the front lines or sitting back near the other spell casters, though the Dragon Ascendant is unlikely to surpass their focused peers. especially spell casters. Though for a Dragon Ascendant to truly shine they must be able to bring their magical and martial forces to bare.
Background
Hit Dice: D8
Class Skills: The Dragon Ascendants's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Climb(Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4+Int Mod(x4 at 1st level)
Dragon Adcendant
{table=head]Level|Base AttackBonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Eschew Material, Breath of the Dragon, Draconian Ancestry|5|3
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Might of the Dragons, Sight of the Dragon|6|4
3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Hide of the Dragon, Presence of the Dragon|6|5
4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Might of the Dragons, Claws of the Dragon|6|6|3
5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Hide of the Dragon, Intellect of the Dragon|6|6|4
6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Might of the Dragon, Sight of the Dragon|6|6|5
7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Hide of the Dragon, Rapid Metamagic|6|6|6|3
8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Might of the Dragon, Sight of the Dragon|6|6|6|4
9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Hide of the Dragon, Sudden Quicken|6|6|6|5
10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Might of the Dragon, Sight of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|3
11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Wings of the Dragon, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|4
12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Draconic Immunities, Half Dragon Ascendance|6|6|6|6|5
13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Wings of the Dragon, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|3
14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9|Might of the Dragon, Mantle of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|4
15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Sudden Quicken, Wings of the Dragon, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|5
16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Presence of the Dragon, Tireless Breath|6|6|6|6|6|6|3
17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Wings, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Might of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Wings of the Dragon, |6|6|6|6|6|6|6
20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Dragon Ascendance|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
[/table]
Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|4|1
2nd|5|1
3rd|5|2
4th|5|2|1
5th|5|3|1
6th|5|3|2
7th|5|4|2|1
8th|5|4|3|1
9th|5|5|3|2
10th|5|5|4|2|1
11th|5|5|4|3|1
12th|5|5|5|3|2
13th|5|5|5|4|2|1
14th|5|5|5|4|3|1
15th|5|5|5|5|3|2
16th|5|5|5|5|4|2|1
17th|5|5|5|5|4|3|1
18th5|5|5|5|5|5|3|2
19th|5|5|5|5|5|4|2
20th|5|5|5|5|5|4|3
[/table]
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Dragon Ascendant is proficient in all simple weapons. The Dragon Ascendant is not proficient with any armor or shields. Armor of any type interferes with a Dragon Ascendant's gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Spells
A Dragon Ascendant casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, unlike the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a Dragon Ascendant must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a Dragon Ascendant can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Dragon Ascendant. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A Dragon Ascendant's selection of spells is limited. A Dragon Ascendant begins play knowing four 0-level spells and one 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Dragon Ascendant level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Dragon Ascendant Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Dragon Ascendant knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Dragon Ascendant Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Dragon Ascendant has gained some understanding of by study. The Dragon Ascendant can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Dragon Ascendant level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Dragon Ascendant can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Dragon Ascendant "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Dragon Ascendant spell the Dragon Ascendant can cast. A Dragon Ascendant may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a Dragon Ascendant need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
Bonus Feats
The Dragon Ascendant is a natural talent among Naturals. At 1st level they no longer need inexpensive material components and gain the benefit of Eschew Materials. A Dragon Ascendant is capable of channeling their arcane energies into their attacks, at 1st level they gain the benefit of Arcane Strike. As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power he gains the ability to rapidly shape and alter the nature of his spells gaining the benefits of Rapid Metamagic at 7th level. At 9th level he gains the ability to cast a spell using Sudden Quicken Spell once per day and at 15th level he can do this twice per day. The Dragon Ascendant counts as having these feats for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.
Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.
Arcane Strike: When you activate this feat (a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity), you can channel arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) to do this, but you gain a bonus on all your attack rolls for 1 round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to 1d4 points x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls from this feat cannot be greater than your base attack bonus.
Rapid Metamagic: When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting time.
Sudden Quicken: Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Quicken Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Quicken Spell normally.
Draconic Ancestry
The Dragon Ascendant has the blood of dragons coursing through their Vein. Upon taking their first level of Dracon Ascendant the player choose a variety of dragon. This choice affects the associated element of their breath weapon, it also affects how the Dragon Ascendant will be percieved by others Dragons. In addition, the Draconic ascendant counts as having the Dragonblood subtype as well as the applicable Draconic Heritage to meet prerequisites only. This confers no bonus, but merely allows the Draconic Ascendant to qualify for feats with Dragon Blood or Draconic Heritage as prerequisites.
Also, a Dragon Ascendant deals an additional point of damage per dice of its associated Energy Type.
Breath of the Dragon
At 1st level the Draconic Ascendant gains a breath weapon as assocated with their chosen heritage of dragon. The damage for this breath weapon is equal to 1d8 per two Dragon Ascendant Class Levels and allows a reflex save(10+1/2Dragon Ascendant HD+Con Modifier) for half damage. This breath weapon is usable once per day.
Might of the Dragons
As the Dragon ascendant grows in power they gain physical bonuses to strength, constitution, and even size at the appropriate level.
Level Bonus
2nd +2 Strength
4th +2 Strength
6th +2 Consitution
8th +2 Strength
10th +2 Strength
14th +2 Strength
18th +2 Consitution
*Physical bonuses derived from Dragon Ascendant levels do not stack with, but overlap with, the bonuses provided by templates.
Sight of the Dragons
As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power its perception of the world begins to expand. The Dragon Ascendant gians the following vision traits at the appropriate level.
2nd Low Light Vision
6th Darkvision 60'
8th Blindsense 30'
10th Blindsense 60'
Hide of the Dragons
As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power its skin begins to change, fine diamond hard scales begin to cover the Dragon Ascendants body. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following Bonuses at the appropriate levels. These bonuses are improvements to natural armor and stack with the creatures base natural armor. Starting at 3rd level and each odd level thereafter the Dragon Ascendants Natural armor increases by one to a total of +8 at 17th level.
3rd +1 Natural Armor, Resist(Energy(Chosen Type)):5
5th +1 Natural Armor
7th +1 Natural Armor, Resist(Energy(Chosen Type)):10
9th +1 Natural Armor
11th +1 Natural Armor
13th +1 Natural Armor, DR:5-Magic
15th +1 Natural Armor
17th +1 Natural Armor, DR:10-Magic
Presence of the Dragons
As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power, it too grows in its personal power and beauty. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following bonuses at the appropriate level.
2nd +2 Charisma
16th +2 Charisma
Intellect of the Dragon
As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power, so does his mind. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following benefit at the appropriate level.
5th +2 Intelligence
Wings, Tooth, and Claw
As the Dragon Ascendant grows in gains the ability to manifest its Draconic nature. Once gained, as a free action the Dragon Ascendant can manifest claws appropriate for its size(d4 for a Medium Creature) as primary weapons. As it matures it can manifest vicious teeth as a secondary natural weapon dealing a d6 points of damage. The Dragon Ascendant is considered proficient with these weapons. Eventually, great wings grow from the backs and grow stronger as the Dragon Ascendant grows in power. All Draconic features can be manifested as a free action and dismissed as one as well.
11th Fly:40(Average)
13th Fly:60(Average)
17th Fly:80(Average)
19th Fly:80(Good)
Draconic Immunities
As the Dragon Ascendant matures it gains immunity to Sleep, Paralysis, and it's associated Energy Type.
Half Dragon Ascendance
At 12th level the Dragon Ascendant becomes a Half Dragon and its type changes to Dragon. It gains any bonuses of the Half Dragon Template which have not already been gained through previous levels in the Dragon Ascendant class. His type Changes to Dragon and his class HD becomes a D12 for this and all further Dragon Ascendant levels hereafter. The Half Dragon Ascendant also changes their lifespan to be the average of their natural race and that of a Dragon of their lineage or their natural lifespan, whichever is greater. If this causes the Dragon Ascendant's age category to be lessened they do not regain lost physical ability scores, nor are their mental ability scores reduced.
Mantle of the Dragon
As the Dragon Ascendat grows in power, spells begin to slide off of him. He gains Spell Resistance equal to his level +7.
Tireless Breath
At 16th level the Dragon Ascendant's Breath Weapon is usable once every d4 rounds to a maximum of his Constitution Modifier times per day.
Draconic Ascendance
Upon reaching 20th level the Dragon Ascendant reaches the peak of their mortal power, nearly bridging the gap to their Dragon forefathers.
The Dragon Ascendant gains Frightful Presence equal to 10+ 1/2 HD +Cha Modifier and increases its Size(+8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Natural Armor, -1 Size, Reach, etc). The Dragon Ascendant counts as a True Dragon in all respects and qualifies for prestige classes and Epic classes as if they were a True Dragon. The Dragon Ascendant also uses the Age categories for a Dragon of its type. If this caused the Dragon Ascendant's age category to be reduced they do not gain lost physical ability scores, nor do they lose any mental abilities once gained. As a True Dragon the Dragon Ascendant no longer suffers penalties for aging.
Reserved for Future use, also used to bump the thread.
Change Log
12-7-12
Removed 7th level spell access.
12-8-12
Cleaned up the Table
Modified Wing Speed and Maneuverability to follow a more logical progression.
Clarified ASF with Armor.
Class now possesses Poor BAB progression and has Gained Arcane Strike as a bonus feat. Lost its Martial Weapon Proficiency.
Aging now changes upon becoming a half dragon and upon becoming a dragon.
Added a clause to limit template stacking for physical attributes.
Changed Hit Dice to a D8 which increases to a D12 at lvl12.
Slowed Spells Known Progression.
12-10-12
Fixed a few typos. No mechanical changes.
Modded Tireless Breath to be a maximum of Con Mod per Day.
12-12-12
Added Swim as a Class Skill.
Clarifying Proficiency with Natural weapons, Natural Weapons, Aging.
12-18-12
No mechanical changes. Added a bit more polish.
bobthe6th
2012-12-06, 10:56 PM
ok, if the breath weapon is 1/day, make it a flat 1d10/level or something... otherwise all of its blasting spells will be better options, and are usable with greater frequency.
also, the steep break from breath weapon 1/day to once per 1d4 rounds... is jaring to say the least. At 16th level the breath weapon becomes a backup weapon for if you ever run out of spells, or just want to kill weak mooks...
ok, if the breath weapon is 1/day, make it a flat 1d10/level or something... otherwise all of its blasting spells will be better options, and are usable with greater frequency.
also, the steep break from breath weapon 1/day to once per 1d4 rounds... is jaring to say the least. At 16th level the breath weapon becomes a backup weapon for if you ever run out of spells, or just want to kill weak mooks...
Good Points. I had selected the damage output to be on par with the pathetic half dragon breath weapon at lvl 12. I was also thinking about adding an increase to 2x then 3x prior to lvl 16.
Thanks for the input.
bobthe6th
2012-12-06, 11:16 PM
The main issue, is it is a terrible combat option to start with... short of swarms this is a mild iritant for anything of your level... you should put it in at a level were you can make it relevant without making it overpowered.
The main issue, is it is a terrible combat option to start with... short of swarms this is a mild iritant for anything of your level... you should put it in at a level were you can make it relevant without making it overpowered.
The breath weapon isn't meant to be a major factor in combat and purpose is to serve as a backup in combat and for hoard control.
Also, there is a feat in Races of the Dragon, I believe which bumps your breath weapon up to every d4 rounds already.
You are saying I should increase access to the breath weapon at every d4 rounds earlier?
bobthe6th
2012-12-06, 11:25 PM
make it once/encounter, or boost the damage. If it is bigger damage, then the fact it is one/day matters less. If it is once/encounter, then it has a number of uses from an opening volley to killing a swarm. either make it worth being once a day, or make it common enough not to matter how strong it is.
What about adding the 2xper day and 3x per before lvl16 and adding ability that lets you use the breath weapon in place of an iterive attack with no AoO? Or allow you to use it in place of a secondary Bite attack in attrition to attacks when full attacking?
CoffeeIncluded
2012-12-07, 03:42 PM
I think you have too many stat increases here; it's got about as many as Vow of Poverty, but that's Vow of Poverty.
Proposed Change Log
Drop 7th Level Casting, Slow Spells Per Day Progression by 1. Drop one Str bonus, reduce Magnitude of Capstone.
bobthe6th
2012-12-07, 07:35 PM
why not give set SLAs for each color, with a option to sacrifice uses for utility spells?
why not give set SLAs for each color, with a option to sacrifice uses for utility spells?
That begins to resemble the work of another Playgrounder's Draconic Ascendant whose work this is already similar to, though mine is probably weaker when compared,. I found theirs after I completed this draft and was shocked by the similarity. I'm looking for something with a bit more Sorcerous feel to it.
Milo v3
2012-12-08, 12:15 AM
That begins to resemble the work of another Playgrounder's Draconic Ascendant whose work this is already similar to, though mine is probably weaker when compared,. I found theirs after I completed this draft and was shocked by the similarity. I'm looking for something with a bit more Sorcerous feel to it.
Which homebrew is the other work? We might be able to help create differentiation between the two. I think I know which one it is, but I'm not sure.
Also I'll try and give this a full PEACH in a minute or two.
Which homebrew is the other work? We might be able to help create differentiation between the two. I think I know which one it is, but I'm not sure.
Also I'll try and give this a full PEACH in a minute or two.
Draconic Ascendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191429) by Jarian
One of the biggest questions is one of Balance. I'm thinking it is currently Tier 3, probably high Tier 3. Thoughts?
Also, could someone please define the PEACH acronym? My best guess is Peer Evaluated And Checked Homebrew.
Milo v3
2012-12-08, 01:50 AM
Damn, I thought you were talking about mine. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231146)
Also here is my PEACH:
Hit Dice: D12
Pretty large HD for a caster, even if it is only 6 levels, I'd suggest d8 to d10.
The Table
The special column would look better without the brackets.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Dragon Ascendant is proficient in all simple weapons and one Martial weapon of their choice. The Dragon Ascendant is not proficient with any armor or shields.
Looks good, though you should specify whether armour interfers with their spells.
A Dragon Ascendant casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
I suggest that the spells are drawn from the Sorcerer spell list, rather than Sorcerer/Wizard. This is for two reasons, firstly their are some dragon themed spells that only sorcerer's can get, and secondly, you don't gain any spells related to preparing.
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Dragon Ascendant has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.
I guess we will learn more about this later on.....
Wait, we don't....
How does this work?
Bonus Feats
Some text would be nice, rather than just the feat names and the levels you get them at.
Draconic Ancestry
Not huge, but allows access to very useful feats faster.
Breath of the Dragon
Damage is decent, but too little uses per day. Perhaps a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 0).
Might of the Dragons
+10 Strength and +4 Constitution is really overpowered, I'd reduce the Strength improvements to +4 maximum.
Hide of the Dragons
That's a lot of Natural Armour, I would reduce it a bit.
Wings, Tooth, and Claw
What is the fly speed of the Wings?
Half Dragon
As you have basically already gained the Half-Dragon template, all it would do is increase your ability scores, which they already get from leveling up.
I'd remove the becoming a Half-Dragon section.
Tireless Breath
As is, this ability is required for breath weapon to be useful.
Draconic Ascendance
Pretty weak as a capstone.
EDIT:
One of the biggest questions is one of Balance. I'm thinking it is currently Tier 3, probably high Tier 3. Thoughts?
I'd say low Tier 2. It's a weak spellcaster, breath weapon takes a long time to become useful, but the Ability Bonuses are ridiculous.
Also, could someone please define the PEACH acronym? My best guess is Peer Evaluated And Checked Homebrew.
Please Evaluate And Critque Honestly.
Damn, I thought you were talking about mine. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231146)
Also here is my PEACH:
Pretty large HD for a caster, even if it is only 6 levels, I'd suggest d8 to d10.
The special column would look better without the brackets.
Looks good, though you should specify whether armour interfers with their spells.
I suggest that the spells are drawn from the Sorcerer spell list, rather than Sorcerer/Wizard. This is for two reasons, firstly their are some dragon themed spells that only sorcerer's can get, and secondly, you don't gain any spells related to preparing.
I guess we will learn more about this later on.....
Wait, we don't....
How does this work?
Some text would be nice, rather than just the feat names and the levels you get them at.
Not huge, but allows access to very useful feats faster.
Damage is decent, but too little uses per day. Perhaps a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 0).
+10 Strength and +4 Constitution is really overpowered, I'd reduce the Strength improvements to +4 maximum.
That's a lot of Natural Armour, I would reduce it a bit.
What is the fly speed of the Wings?
As you have basically already gained the Half-Dragon template, all it would do is increase your ability scores, which they already get from leveling up.
I'd remove the becoming a Half-Dragon section.
As is, this ability is required for breath weapon to be useful.
Pretty weak as a capstone.
EDIT:
I'd say low Tier 2. It's a weak spellcaster, breath weapon takes a long time to become useful, but the Ability Bonuses are ridiculous.
Please Evaluate And Critque Honestly.
Ok, here are some responses.....
D12: Yes it's high, but this is a true Gish class, not a Primary spell aster. A D12 when combined with Medium BAB, one good save, and horrible proficiencies is actually a very balanced chassis. If nothing I'm considering dropping it down to Poor BAB and giving Arcane Steike As a Bonus Feat.
Yes, they suffer Arcane Failure as Normal, I didn't believe it had to be specified as it applies unless otherwises stated. And the class does not get armor proficiencies. That limits in the SRD for normal Sorcerers, it basically means custom Spells or any other sell you could get access to.
I'll be working on cleaning it up, adding more description.
The Breath Weapon at 12th level is completely standard for a Half Dragon. A Half Dragon has a 1/day usage as well.
+10 Str and +4 Con can be achieved with Dragon Disciple and Dragon Devotee as well as the Cha and Int Bonuses. +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha can easily be attained through th overpriced Half Dragon Template for +3 LA. The Strength mainly offsets the BAB deficiency and would be broken on a full BAB character, currently it is more balanced.
The only large Strengh Boost is the Capstone where you Gain Large Size.
It Gains +8 Natural Armor, +2 additional at Large Size which only offsets Dex and Size Penalties. +4 Natural Armor is consistent with a Half Dragon, more with a Dragon Devotee. I agree, the ability bonuses would be utterly broken on a true melee character, but I believe they serve to make the class an able combatant, lest they completely lose their combat effectiveness.
It's Flyspeed is listed on the table, eventually gains 80'(Good). Thinking about dropping this down to Average Maneuverability.
I need to be more specific with the Half Dragon section. You only gain what you haven't gained already, which amounts to a Bit attack, the Dragon type, and that is about it. You don't gain an additional +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha etc as you've already gained those. In fact all of these massive bonuses are simply the Half Dragon Template spread over the first 12 levels with some spell casting, actually equivalent spell casting to an aeCL Sorcerer with the Half Dragon Template.
Large Size is the True Capstone, Frightful Presence merely is a bonus and more thematic.
I don't think this can qualify as a Tier 2, simply because it lacks the true power of a T2 class, that is what makes Tier2 classes Tier 2. It is more like a High Tier 3.
Your class is interesting, especially as a a Prestige class. Also, yours has a D12 Hit Dice, Two good Saves, and Medium BAB with Half spell casting. Pretty comparable chassis to mine. I think the SLAs would lead to abuse, and It is a very narrow class. Consider making it a Base Class?
Ok. I took a step back and tried to really figure out what I was after with this class and I think I have it down.
I was looking for a primarily ability based Melee/Spellcaster Gish. I believe I have fixed this problem and created a balanced Upper Tier 3 Class.
Please refer to my changelog in second post for details.
lunar2
2012-12-08, 12:53 PM
does everyone on the forums have a "become a dragon" class, and are they all named Dragon Ascendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12513603#post12513603)?
does everyone on the forums have a "become a dragon" class, and are they all named Dragon Ascendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12513603#post12513603)?
It is starting to look that way. Though, I think this class is more balanced than yours and hopefully has less avenues for abuse. Though, your's is more modular and is closer to the Dragon abilities.
Cavelcade
2012-12-08, 01:25 PM
This seems pretty reasonable, though I'd probably reduce the hit die to d10. It's worth testing it out with both, and seeing whether it still fits your vision. If you wanted it go grow more powerful with transformation - maybe give a raw bonus to HP when he becomes a half dragon and then a full dragon?
In any case, this seems much more balanced, you weren't far off with the first attempt but it was just pushed over the edge. Is there a way to test these?
This seems pretty reasonable, though I'd probably reduce the hit die to d10. It's worth testing it out with both, and seeing whether it still fits your vision. If you wanted it go grow more powerful with transformation - maybe give a raw bonus to HP when he becomes a half dragon and then a full dragon?
In any case, this seems much more balanced, you weren't far off with the first attempt but it was just pushed over the edge. Is there a way to test these?
What if the class started as a D8 or D10, then increasing its Hd to a D12 at 12th Level? That seemed balanced enough?
The reason I kept the D12 was that with Poor BAB, one Good Save, Reduced Spellcasting, and terrible proficiencies it needed it. Compare it to a Bard, D6, Medium BAB, Two Good Saves, Similar Spellcasting, Better Proficiencies, more skills, better skills, and Armored Casting. Or, god, compare it to a Druid, or Cleric. The base Chassis needs something, either a 2nd good Save or the Higher HD. And a D12 is consistent with a Dragon, Half Dragon, Dragon Disciple, etc. heck a Dragon is a D12, All Good Saves, More Skills, Full BAB etc.
As for testing, I just build a 12th level character and compare starts and abilities to a comparable build.
Cavelcade
2012-12-08, 02:26 PM
Increasing it to a d12 seems flavourful enough, too. Either seems fine to me, but I think it should probably not have the d12 hit die straight away, with the other advantages.
Increasing it to a d12 seems flavourful enough, too. Either seems fine to me, but I think it should probably not have the d12 hit die straight away, with the other advantages.
Ok, it does get good bonuses for its first class level, I'll convert it to a D8, increasing to a D12 at 12th level.
I like this, seems much more balanced. Still runs into the problem of being a better caster than a Sorcerer for levels 2-5. May need to slow the Spellcasting Progression a bit more. 2nd level spells at 5th level... Or every fourth. I like every fourth, but it doesn't solve the low level problem vs sorcerers, just reduces eventual casting power.
Cavelcade
2012-12-08, 02:40 PM
Hm, I might show this to a friend of mine as well, if that's okay. I know he wanted to play the Dragon Shaman class from 3.5, he might be interested in this and could give some good feedback. Would that be okay with you, ZMan?
Edit: The answer for powering down vs Sorcerer might be as simple as giving him fewer spells per day.
Hm, I might show this to a friend of mine as well, if that's okay. I know he wanted to play the Dragon Shaman class from 3.5, he might be interested in this and could give some good feedback. Would that be okay with you, ZMan?
Edit: The answer for powering down vs Sorcerer might be as simple as giving him fewer spells per day.
I could slow down spells known progression. End up knowing the same amount, just make it take twice as long to learn them.
Go ahead, the more input the better. And Dragon Shaman isn't a very good class.
Edit: Spells slown down.
Milo v3
2012-12-08, 04:30 PM
Yes, they suffer Arcane Failure as Normal, I didn't believe it had to be specified as it applies unless otherwises stated.
Every other caster class states whether its spell casting is affected by armour.
The Breath Weapon at 12th level is completely standard for a Half Dragon. A Half Dragon has a 1/day usage as well.
Half-Dragon is definitely not a pillar of balance or usefulness.
+10 Str and +4 Con can be achieved with Dragon Disciple and Dragon Devotee as well as the Cha and Int Bonuses. +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha can easily be attained through th overpriced Half Dragon Template for +3 LA. The Strength mainly offsets the BAB deficiency and would be broken on a full BAB character, currently it is more balanced.
As stated, Half Dragon shouldn't be used as a basis of balance. Especially for a class.
Your class is interesting, especially as a Prestige class. Also, yours has a D12 Hit Dice, Two good Saves, and Medium BAB with Half spell casting. Pretty comparable chassis to mine. I think the SLAs would lead to abuse, and It is a very narrow class. Consider making it a Base Class?
The D12 HD, Two Good Saves are only there because it is a Prestige class. Prestige classes can afford to be more powerful because you have to fufil the requirements to even take a single level, so I'm not thinking of making it a Base Class. As for the SLA's, they are useful, but only if you select the right ones and a normal character can only get level 5 spells from it once they reach a character level of 20. The only real huge amounts of power I see from it is that it can allow for cleric and sorcerer spells.
does everyone on the forums have a "become a dragon" class, and are they all named Dragon Ascendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12513603#post12513603)?
Mine isn't named Dragon Ascendant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231146)
Every other caster class states whether its spell casting is affected by armour.
Half-Dragon is definitely not a pillar of balance or usefulness.
As stated, Half Dragon shouldn't be used as a basis of balance. Especially for a class.
The D12 HD, Two Good Saves are only there because it is a Prestige class. Prestige classes can afford to be more powerful because you have to fufil the requirements to even take a single level, so I'm not thinking of making it a Base Class. As for the SLA's, they are useful, but only if you select the right ones and a normal character can only get level 5 spells from it once they reach a character level of 20. The only real huge amounts of power I see from it is that it can allow for cleric and sorcerer spells.
Mine isn't named Dragon Ascendant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231146)
The Omission about ASF has already been fixed.
No Half Dragon is not a great baseline, but it already established and an ok place to start. I didn't use just Half Dragon Template, I also used the Half Dragon PrC as a baseline.
I think we did a good job Balancing my class. I have two builds set up at lvl 12, Valen the Original and Valen the Revised based upon 32 point buy. Funny story, they have almost identical combat capabilities with a small, but significant edge to Valen the Original. The gap is bigger depending on optimization to Valen the Original.
As the classes level they remain pretty close with Valen the Original staying superior in everything but HP and magical defense.
Valen the Revised (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=480224) Dragon Ascendant
Valen the Original (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=478649l) Roughly WoTC equivalent.
Jormengand
2012-12-10, 01:28 PM
Woah! Lotta stuff. Few instances of "Sorcerer" where there should be "Dragon Ascendant" in the spells section, I'll have a full look at the whole class in a minute.
Here is a balance comparison to a similar Battle Sorcerer Build for a power comparison...
7th Level Dragon Ascendant Crunch (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=481656)
7th Level Battle Sorcerer Crunch (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=481650)
Jormengand
2012-12-10, 01:43 PM
- What the hell is intellect? Do you mean Intelligence?
- You have a class that can out-fight a barbarian (Stupidly high strength bonuses), out-tank a fighter (Stupidly high constitution bonuses), and out-cast most gishes or bard-esque characters (Fairly high charisma bonuses, one of the two good spell lists). You're going to need to tone it down a bit.
- This one's a bit silly, but you can take the dragon disciple prestige with this base class... and become a half-dragon even though you're already a dragon disciple, which does not allow you to be one. Perhaps something to prevent this, just to stop shenanigans.
- What the hell is intellect? Do you mean Intelligence?
- You have a class that can out-fight a barbarian (Stupidly high strength bonuses), out-tank a fighter (stupidly high constitution modifier), and out-cast most gishes or bard-esque characters (Fairly high charisma modifier, one of the two good spell lists). You're going to need to tone it down a bit.
- This one's a bit silly, but you can take the dragon disciple prestige with this base class... and become a half-dragon even though you're already a dragon disciple, which does not allow you to be one. Perhaps something to prevent this, just to stop shenanigans.
Then you unfortunately didn't look close enough at the class to see how the class is intended to be balanced.
Yes there are very good stat bonuses, but with only a Poor BAB they don't even give you equal chances of hitting. Now consider that this severely nerfs Power Attack. You won't outfight even a remotely optimized Barbarian. Also, Barnarian is a Tier 4 class.
You won't out cast casters. And I've already provide two Gish builds which outcast this one. I'm not understanding your concerns?
Consider the Opportunity Cost of casting, or striking in Melee.
You also only have proficiency in simple weapons.
Dragon Disciple is a bad class, and as stated the bonuses granted by this class won't stack with those granted by Dragon Disciple, or the Half Dragon PrC.
This class is not as powerful as Battle Sorcerer, a generally agreed upon terrible class. I'm thinking it isn't outlandish in power. If you don't believe me, do a couple of test builds and look at what you could build from other classes.
definition intellect (http://www.google.com/search?q=definition+intellect&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari)
Tavar
2012-12-10, 03:55 PM
Where is Intellect in Dungeons and Dragons?
Jormengand
2012-12-10, 04:08 PM
Where is Intellect in Dungeons and Dragons?
Yeah, this is what I meant when I asked what was meant by intellect.
Cavelcade
2012-12-10, 04:09 PM
As the name of a class ability it seems fine. He's not calling the basic ability that.
Edit: To clarify - that's a typo in the ability. He meant +2 intelligence.
Tavar
2012-12-10, 04:25 PM
As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power, so does his mind. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following benefit at the appropriate level.
5th +2 Intellect
Nope, looks like he's using it as actual rules as well.
It was a typo, it has been fixed.
Ok, what I am looking for is an argument for why the Stat bonuses in this class are "overpowered" or for why this class is overpowered in general. I fail to see it, and I've been CRUNCHING away trying to figure it out. I'm looking for a well thought out argument supported by builds, etc.
Here are a few comparisons between a Barbarian and a Dragon Ascendant, assuming lvls 6/13/20. This also assume an 18 base Str which is unlikely for the DA. It also assumes that both are putting their level bonuses into STR which is unlikely as well and favors the DA in this comparison. Both will assume a Great Sword.
LVL6 Barbarian
BAB=+6/+1 +4Str +2Rage = +12/+7 for 2d6 +9 Damage
Potential for +12 Damage Power Attack
LVL6 Whirling Frenzy Barbarian
BAB=+6/+1 +4Str +2Frenzy = +12/+10/+7 for 2d6 +9 Damage
Potential for +12 Damage Power Attack
LVL6 Dragon Ascendant(Note it cost a feat to wield a Greatsword)
BAB=+3 +6STR = +9 for 2d6+9
With Max Arcane Strike Dropping a lvl2 Spell
+11 for 2d6+9+2d4
Potential for +6 Damage Power Attack
LVL13 Barbarian
BAB=+13/+8/+3 +5Str +3GreaterRage = +21/+16/+11 for 2d6 +12 Damage
Potential for a +26Damage Power Attack
LVL13 Barbarian-Whirling Frenzy
BAB=+13/+8/+3 +5Str +3GreaterFrenzy = +21/+19/+14/+9 for 2d6 +12 Damage
Potential for a +26Damage Power Attack
LVL13 Dragon Ascendant(Note it cost a feat to wield a Greatsword)
BAB=+6/+1 +9STR = +15/+10 for 2d6+13
With Max Arcane Strike Dropping a lvl5 Spell
+20/+15 for 2d6+13+5d4
Potential for a +12 Damage Power Attack
LVL20 Barbarian
BAB=+20/+15/+10/+5 +6 Str +4Mighty Rage = +30/+25/+20/+15 for 2d6+15Damage
Potential for +40 Damage Power Attack
LVL20 Barbarian-Whirling Frenzy
BAB=+20/+15/+10/+5 +6 Str +4Mighty Frenzy= +30/+28/+23/+18/+13 for 2d6+15Damage
Potential for +40 Damage Power Attack
LVL20 DA
BAB=+10/+5 +15Str -1Size = +24/+19 for 2d6 +22Damage
With Max Arcane Strike Dropping a 6th Level Spell
+30/+25 for 3d6+22+6d4
Potential for +20 Damage Power Attack
I could start factoring ACs, but I don't think that is necessary. It is very clear that the Dragon Ascendant will never do nearly the Damage a Barbarian can do in combat.
The massive Stat boosts do not make up for the lack of BAB and consequently Iterative Attacks and Potential for Power Attack.
Next Question, is the DA's Spellcasting OverPowered?
BtanH
2012-12-10, 06:33 PM
IMO - Give it 3/4 BAB
And then cut down on the physical stat bonuses maybe?
Personally, I still don't think it would be a problem if you just gave it 3/4 BAB.
This class has no real class features to speak of.
IMO - Give it 3/4 BAB
And then cut down on the physical stat bonuses maybe?
Personally, I still don't think it would be a problem if you just gave it 3/4 BAB.
This class has no real class features to speak of.
I think it is Tier 3 already. Giving it more BAB is a bit much, especially with a spell like Wraithstrike. It has enough Spellcasting to offset the poor BAB with buffs and versatility.
Increasing BAB actually makes the class easier to be abused over the Physical Bonuses. They really are the class ability. Of course, so is a focus on Arcane Strike. I've debated making its Arcane Strike +d6 per spell level instead of a D4.
I had Medium BAB prior, but dropping in an attempt to achieve Tier 3.
Thank you for the feedback.
BtanH
2012-12-10, 07:35 PM
By having the physical bonuses be its class ability, one could very well play a similar character by taking 12 levels of sorcerer (with the ability to prestige for actual class abilities), and then taking templates for physical bonuses. With 8 LA up for grabs there are so many different things you could get that mere stat bonuses become relatively irrelevant.
Perhaps give the class some actual class abilities?
Definition of Tier 3
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
This class has no specialization, and it seems fairly weak as a gish. The only unique thing it has is the 20th level ability, which is pretty cool.
But yeah, my main recommendation then is to give it some actual class abilities.
By having the physical bonuses be its class ability, one could very well play a similar character by taking 12 levels of sorcerer (with the ability to prestige for actual class abilities), and then taking templates for physical bonuses. With 8 LA up for grabs there are so many different things you could get that mere stat bonuses become relatively irrelevant.
Perhaps give the class some actual class abilities?
Definition of Tier 3
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
This class has no specialization, and it seems fairly weak as a gish. The only unique thing it has is the 20th level ability, which is pretty cool.
But yeah, my main recommendation then is to give it some actual class abilities.
Are you arguing that this class is Tier4?
This class is a Natural Gish, is a capable Meleer and acceptable Arcane Caster. It will not outshine the Secialists, but it has options.
I would say it does have class abilities. Up to Lvl6 Spellcasting, the ability to reasonably cast spontaneous Metamagic at lower levels than most casters. The ability to quicken two spells per day as a spontaneous caster, and Aarcane Strike. All of these features are all available much earlier than normal, or are too feat intensive to be taken for a Gish.
That sounds like class abilities to me. What would you suggest?
BtanH
2012-12-10, 08:47 PM
Well, on second thought, it does probably fall into tier 3 based purely on its spellcasting.
I'm not 100% sure what you wanted the class to do, but some more flavorful class abilities would be cool?
Well, on second thought, it does probably fall into tier 3 based purely on its spellcasting.
I'm not 100% sure what you wanted the class to do, but some more flavorful class abilities would be cool?
I wanted to build a Dragon themed Natural Gish. Someone who fights by pouring power into their weapons or claws and explores their Draconic Origins and starts unlocking that power and physically transforming. It was partially inspired by the Dragon Disciple class, instead of remaking the PrC(Essentially just giving it half or 3/4 Spellcasting), I decided to create a Base class centered around what I felt it could have been.
BtanH
2012-12-10, 09:06 PM
Yeah, I reread it, and something I'm really not feeling is this
"I've created a base class around harnessing the essence and power of dragon blood withing a sorcerers veins."
I'm not sure how you should implement that, but I think doing so would be a nice improvement? Just give it 2-3 class abilities that don't do anything drastic but add to the flavor? I don't really know what you want, but this class kinda just feels like a sorcerer who took the dragonborn template and got a few free feats (ignoring the level 20 capstone of course).
Also fix the spelling (withing)?
Yeah, I reread it, and something I'm really not feeling is this
"I've created a base class around harnessing the essence and power of dragon blood withing a sorcerers veins."
I'm not sure how you should implement that, but I think doing so would be a nice improvement? Just give it 2-3 class abilities that don't do anything drastic but add to the flavor? I don't really know what you want, but this class kinda just feels like a sorcerer who took the dragonborn template and got a few free feats (ignoring the level 20 capstone of course).
Also fix the spelling (withing)?
It already offers a damage bonus to dragon element. How about a bonus to social skills with Dragons of your type? I'm open to specific suggestions.
My IPad sometimes likes to give me grief with Autocorrect.
BtanH
2012-12-10, 09:15 PM
Yeah, autocorrect sucks.
Social skills is good, and maybe a caster level bonus on spells with a subtype which is the same as your dragon element?
Also, going from 1/day breathe weapon to once every 1d4 rounds seems rather sudden. Maybe have it scale a little bit?
Yeah, autocorrect sucks.
Social skills is good, and maybe a caster level bonus on spells with a subtype which is the same as your dragon element?
Also, going from 1/day breathe weapon to once every 1d4 rounds seems rather sudden. Maybe have it scale a little bit?
I could have it count as a sorcerer for spells that grant bonuses.
The D4 rounds breath weapon is an actual feat, or at least I thought it was. I'll reduce it to every d4 rounds up to Con Mod per day.
BtanH
2012-12-10, 09:35 PM
Does the Dragon Ascendant have a reduced caster level?
Does the Dragon Ascendant have a reduced caster level?
No, its Caster Level is the same as its class level. I don't want to boost it past this,motherwise that would have been a good class feature.
BtanH
2012-12-10, 10:06 PM
I really don't think that +1 caster level should pose a problem, especially because it it such a limited ability (applying only on your element of dragon). Especially because elemental resistance/immunity is so common.
I think giving +1 CL at an early/mid level and then bumping it up to +2 CL later on wouldn't be a problem.
I really don't think that +1 caster level should pose a problem, especially because it it such a limited ability (applying only on your element of dragon). Especially because elemental resistance/immunity is so common.
I think giving +1 CL at an early/mid level and then bumping it up to +2 CL later on wouldn't be a problem.
I'll definitely consider it. I don't want to introduce it before lvl7. The DA already is pretty strong as a caster at early levels.
Any other suggestions?
I had considered element substitution as a bonus feat. Thoughts?
Sherishade
2012-12-11, 04:19 AM
I really like the class and love all things dragon, it vaguely reminds me of a similiarly named prestige I made and haven't posted that delt more with enhancing the breath for half dragons and dragon shaman. but I love this!
Also can someone PM me where I can find info on these tiers? I keep seeing them mentioned but have never seen anything about them.
BtanH
2012-12-11, 07:41 AM
I'll definitely consider it. I don't want to introduce it before lvl7. The DA already is pretty strong as a caster at early levels.
Any other suggestions?
I had considered element substitution as a bonus feat. Thoughts?
No other suggestion, element substitution would be good. Though you probably shouldn't allow both element substitution and the + CL to stack on each other (e.g. casting a cold spell but making it fire and then getting bonus CL).
@Sherishade
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0
Googling dnd tier would have worked too...
No other suggestion, element substitution would be good. Though you probably shouldn't allow both element substitution and the + CL to stack on each other (e.g. casting a cold spell but making it fire and then getting bonus CL).
@Sherishade
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0
Googling dnd tier would have worked too...
I was thinking along the lines of mandatory energy substitution to your chosen type. You'd get the bonus, but it would be a large nerf in flexibility. Just hope you don't run into anything immune.
Or make it the standard elements, acid, shock, fire, and cold become that of your type. That would still let the character cast sonic and force sells that weren't substituted and give a bit more flexibility.
BtanH
2012-12-11, 10:58 AM
I was thinking along the lines of mandatory energy substitution to your chosen type. You'd get the bonus, but it would be a large nerf in flexibility. Just hope you don't run into anything immune.
Or make it the standard elements, acid, shock, fire, and cold become that of your type. That would still let the character cast sonic and force sells that weren't substituted and give a bit more flexibility.
Mandatory substitution would be interesting. Though maybe permit non-substitution at the cost of reduced CL?
E.G.
If you chose ice, and wanted to cast fireball you would cast an ice fireball with +1/2 CL. If you wanted to cast it as a fireball, you would lose 1/2 CL?
I assume force dragons and whatnon are off limits? If yes, the 4 standard elements should be fine.
Im not liking the Mandatory Energy Sub, or the altering Caster Level.
Im thinking a +1 Caster Level Bonus for any spell that lists Dragon, Draconic, Wyrm, etc in its name or even a +2 Caster Level.
I want to stay away from more blanketed CL modifications. If a character wants Energy Substitution, they can take the feat.
Tavar
2012-12-11, 07:48 PM
Eh, I think this class is a tad weak.
Poor BaB, slow casting progression, Weak SR(and spell resistance can easily become a double edged sword), rarely useable breath weapon, essentially meaningless DR....
Attribute bonuses are somewhat nice, but considering the restrictions on those...
Yeah, not much of a draw for this class.
Cavelcade
2012-12-11, 07:51 PM
Actually, given the other nerfs, upping BAB to medium advancement might be reasonable.
Eh, I think this class is a tad weak.
Poor BaB, slow casting progression, Weak SR(and spell resistance can easily become a double edged sword), rarely useable breath weapon, essentially meaningless DR....
Attribute bonuses are somewhat nice, but considering the restrictions on those...
Yeah, not much of a draw for this class.
I agree. Many see the stat bonuses and assume over powered. I believe that it will still fall Tier 3, but will be easy overshadowed by other more optimized builds.
What would you suggest for improvements?
Actually, given the other nerfs, upping BAB to medium advancement might be reasonable.
I'm torn, Wraithstrike for instance is highly a usable with a High BAB, and the Iterative attacks make Arcane Strike even better.
I'd be more inclined to bring back 7th level spells and max spells per spell level back up to 6.
Medium BAB would also work.
Zelkon
2012-12-11, 08:15 PM
Has this been tiered yet?
EDIT: It's kinda poor for a gish. Needs Full BAB, I think.
Has this been tiered yet?
EDIT: It's kinda poor for a gish. Needs Full BAB, I think.
It has not been tiered yet. I was planning on waiting until the class was stable before looking to get it tiered.
Full BAB? I can see Medium BAB, but with the Strength Increases it should be close to Full BAB, with the exception of two Iterative Attacks. But, having access to 6th level Spontaneous spells should be considered as well. There are many ways to Buff and negate this difference.
What are your suggestions, or why do you feel that this class needs Full BAB? What Tier do you believe it falls into currently?
Jeff the Green
2012-12-11, 11:48 PM
Lessee.
Like the monk, he's not proficient with his natural weapons. Fix that.
A 1/day breath weapon is close to useless.
Under "Hide of the Dragons," you need to specify what kind of bonus you get to AC. Is it a Natural Armor bonus (in which case it wouldn't stack with a racial NA), is it an enhancement bonus to NA (in which case it wouldn't stack with barkskin), or is it an increase to NA (in which case it would stack with both).
Under "Might of the Dragons," would this mean that a Half-Celestial going in would only gain a total of +2 Strength, since the bonuses don't stack with templates and Half-Celestial is a template that grants +4 Strength? I recommend changing the wording either way.
*Physical bonuses derived from Dragon Ascendant levels do not stack with, but overlap with, the bonuses provided by templates.
Under "Half Dragon Ascendance," this is confusing:
any bonuses of the Half Dragon Template which have not already been gained
Also under "Half Dragon Ascendance," you need to explain how the age category thing works. For example, would a middle-age human who suddenly finds himself in the young adult category become slightly stupider but stronger?
Also, go through and check grammar, and try to hue to the wording WotC uses. Look in particular at the Dragon Disciple and Dragonfire Adept wording.
Tavar
2012-12-12, 12:32 AM
Umm...you don't need to have proficiency with natural weapons. The issue with monks is that Unarmed Strike isn't a natural weapon.
Lessee.
Like the monk, he's not proficient with his natural weapons. Fix that.
Ibelieve you are automatically proficient with your natural weapons. I need to clarify that section better.
A 1/day breath weapon is close to useless.
It becomes better at Higher levels and is consistent with a Half Dragons breath weapon. It not meant as a primary attack method, merely a secondary flavorful attack form.
Under "Hide of the Dragons," you need to specify what kind of bonus you get to AC. Is it a Natural Armor bonus (in which case it wouldn't stack with a racial NA), is it an enhancement bonus to NA (in which case it wouldn't stack with barkskin), or is it an increase to NA (in which case it would stack with both).
It is an improvement to natural armor, though it may be better as a bonus which doesn't not stack with Racial Natural Armor. I will clarify its type.
Under "Might of the Dragons," would this mean that a Half-Celestial going in would only gain a total of +2 Strength, since the bonuses don't stack with templates and Half-Celestial is a template that grants +4 Strength? I recommend changing the wording either way.
That is correct, the bonuses granted do not stack with Template bonuses. Mainly used to avoid abuse with templates such as Half Minataur, etc.
Under "Half Dragon Ascendance," this is confusing:
This is the Catch all to grant anything that was not given specifically already, ie Bite, etc
Also under "Half Dragon Ascendance," you need to explain how the age category thing works. For example, would a middle-age human who suddenly finds himself in the young adult category become slightly stupider but stronger?
I will clarify this section. I don't believe Dragons receive aging penalties to physical scores.
Also, go through and check grammar, and try to hue to the wording WotC uses. Look in particular at the Dragon Disciple and Dragonfire Adept wording.
I do need to go through and polish up the class. I've been more concerned about making sure the mechanical side of the class is ironed out before finalizing it.
Thank you for your PEACH.
Tavar
2012-12-12, 12:10 PM
Well, the Half Dragon's Breath Weapon sucks, so if you wanted it to be similar to that one I guess it worked.
Also, making your comments readable without having to quote the post is always a plus.
Well, the Half Dragon's Breath Weapon sucks, so if you wanted it to be similar to that one I guess it worked.
Also, making your comments readable without having to quote the post is always a plus.
Yes, the half dragon's breath weapon does suck. I created the Dragon Ascendant's breath weapon to scale with HD so it does indeed become more powerful beyond 12th level. It also can be used multiple times per day as well.
Should I consider increasing its Damage Dice to D10s.
Also edited the previous post for a more readable color.
Tavar
2012-12-12, 12:39 PM
At level 17. That's way to late to really be meaningful. Similar to the DR the class gets.
Biggest issue with the class is that I don't really see any particular role it does a decent job at. Can't really tank, can't do skills, spell casting is too slow and limited for it to fill a spell caster's role, and it doesn't really seem capable to be a frontline combatant.
Yes, you've given it the powers of a Half Dragon. Well, half dragon is a pretty sucky template, and giving it spontaneous casting like you did isn't really that much of a boost.
At level 17. That's way to late to really be meaningful. Similar to the DR the class gets.
Biggest issue with the class is that I don't really see any particular role it does a decent job at. Can't really tank, can't do skills, spell casting is too slow and limited for it to fill a spell caster's role, and it doesn't really seem capable to be a frontline combatant.
Yes, you've given it the powers of a Half Dragon. Well, half dragon is a pretty sucky template, and giving it spontaneous casting like you did isn't really that much of a boost.
You may very well be right. The ability boosts and other buffs it does get seem to really scare people. It needs some play tests to see if it can be a capable class or if I've had to overnerf it to appeal those who thought it too powerful. I think its about right with Medium BAB.
And in and of itself, its spellcasting in enough to negate most Tier4+ characters. I'm only shooting for High Tier3. It does have enough casting to make it more effective at some of those roles, but it should never beat a specialist.
Cavelcade
2012-12-12, 12:53 PM
I would agree DR could well be amplified too - maybe DR4 at level 5 and increasing by 4 at each 5 levels? If you did that and increased the BAB to medium it would get a boost but not too strong a one I think.
I would agree DR could well be amplified too - maybe DR4 at level 5 and increasing by 4 at each 5 levels? If you did that and increased the BAB to medium it would get a boost but not too strong a one I think.
I didn't want to grant DR-Magic before lvl 13 as it assumes the Half Dragon Template at lvl 12 for fluffy reasons.
I think all it needs is giving it Medium BAB. But, I am more than willing to playtest the class as is and determine if its viable.
BtanH
2012-12-12, 12:58 PM
Honestly, the Adept is tier 4. And this class > Adept in every way.
Also, DR-Magic sucks, practically everything pierces it. I recommend changing it to something else at a higher level at the least. Not actually sure why I'm posting in this thread, I don't really have much to say.
Cavelcade
2012-12-12, 01:00 PM
Maybe DR6/the opposite energy type at level 6 and goes up again at 12 and 18? That would still be a bit fluffy - halfway to being a half dragon, kind of.
Maybe DR6/the opposite energy type at level 6 and goes up again at 12 and 18? That would still be a bit fluffy - halfway to being a half dragon, kind of.
I was trying to stick to the True Dragon set of abilities. Hence why its DR-Magic. I could do a resist Energy, but part of me thinks that it should be vulnerable to the opposite energy type.
Cavelcade
2012-12-12, 01:13 PM
Sorry, that's what I meant - DR 6 except against weapons of the opposite energy type.
Tavar
2012-12-12, 01:18 PM
DR doesn't have anything to do with energy types.
And, well, not wanting it to be better than specialists is fine. But it should have a role that it can fufil. This one doesn't seem to have any role it's actually good at.
DR doesn't have anything to do with energy types.
And, well, not wanting it to be better than specialists is fine. But it should have a role that it can fufil. This one doesn't seem to have any role it's actually good at.
I believe he meant energy resistance.
I still think it can contribute in multiple ways to encounters. It really needs to be tested at this point. And it is very possible you are right and it is lackluster.
Jeff the Green
2012-12-12, 03:08 PM
Umm...you don't need to have proficiency with natural weapons. The issue with monks is that Unarmed Strike isn't a natural weapon.
Where does it say that? Because druids specifically call out that they're proficient with the natural weapons they get through Wild Shape, and aberrations, animals, constructs, dragons, giants, magical beasts, plants, undead, and vermin get it from their type. I don't see anything saying humanoids (the most likely type for a PC) get proficiency with natural attacks.
Mystic Muse
2012-12-13, 04:03 AM
Okay, a few things.
1. The Breath weapon is absolutely worthless. Either increase the amount of times you can use it, or make it good enough that it warrants only being used once per day. 1d4 rounds is the maximum I would put on it. Heck, I've made true dragon classes (Silver, Pyroclastic, Styx), and 1d4 rounds is the amount of time I put on breath weapons that deal 1d6 damage per hit dice.
2. The ability score bonuses are too large, the ability itself is kind of confusing, and they're boring. Every time I make a class with ability score bonuses, I spread them out and make them much smaller. I've got several Dragon monster classes where you are an actual dragon, and they don't get bonuses that high (Which reminds me, I need to change the bonuses around on one).
3. Spell resistance should at least be HD+11.
4. The "Half-Dragon ascendance" ability is confusing, as it doesn't look like it actually does anything, since all features you would have gained from becoming a half-dragon you've already gained.
5. Other than spellcasting, breath of the dragon, and flight, this class has nothing but passive abilities, which is really, really boring. I suggest reducing the ability score bonuses to something more reasonable, taking away the bonuses gained from increasing size categories entirely, maybe granting them another size category increase (You really should be huge at this point),
6. Let's say I'm a player looking around for classes that let me play Dragon-y things. I want you to tell me, in your own words, what you think makes your class interesting, because as-is, it doesn't look like it'd be all that fun to play. Honestly, if my player came to me looking to play a class like this, I'd point them to Jarian's, as it's better written* and has more things to look forward to.
*I'm not expecting you to be an English major or anything, but there are several poorly written abilities.
Also, a Dragon Ascendant deals an additional point of damage per dice of its associated Energy Type. I can't tell what it is this actually does. Can you give me an example of it in play so that I can understand better, and could maybe help you word it better?
Half Dragon Ascendant: This ability as written extends your life, changes your type to dragon, and gives you d12 HD for your previous class levels. It shouldn't need to be as wordy as it is. I'd come up with something shorter, but it's 4 AM and I need sleep now.
Okay, a few things.
1. The Breath weapon is absolutely worthless. Either increase the amount of times you can use it, or make it good enough that it warrants only being used once per day. 1d4 rounds is the maximum I would put on it. Heck, I've made true dragon classes (Silver, Pyroclastic, Styx), and 1d4 rounds is the amount of time I put on breath weapons that deal 1d6 damage per hit dice.
The breath weapon is not meant to be a major factor in this class, nor is it meant to be that powerful. It is meant for fluffs sake and the occasional instance where it would be useful. I took inspiration from a Half Dragon's breath weapon and made it scale. It becomes better at 16th level, though that is again fluff related. This is not a Dragonfire adept.
2. The ability score bonuses are too large, the ability itself is kind of confusing, and they're boring. Every time I make a class with ability score bonuses, I spread them out and make them much smaller. I've got several Dragon monster classes where you are an actual dragon, and they don't get bonuses that high (Which reminds me, I need to change the bonuses around on one).
The ability score bonuses merely offset other deficiencies in the class and in practice are not imbalanced. Again, ability bonuses are based upon Half Dragons. After 12th level there is only a +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha and the standard changes for going to large size.
3. Spell resistance should at least be HD+11.
It is not meant to have extremely powerful Spell Resistance, merely spell resistance in flavor with Dragons. If you calculate a True Dragons SR it comes out to be 7+CR in many instances. Ignoring Spells of equal level casters 35% of the time is not bad.
4. The "Half-Dragon ascendance" ability is confusing, as it doesn't look like it actually does anything, since all features you would have gained from becoming a half-dragon you've already gained.
Technically you gain your bite damage at this time. Its merely a catch all in case something is missed or obscure rules come into play.
5. Other than spellcasting, breath of the dragon, and flight, this class has nothing but passive abilities, which is really, really boring. I suggest reducing the ability score bonuses to something more reasonable, taking away the bonuses gained from increasing size categories entirely, maybe granting them another size category increase (You really should be huge at this point),
If this is your conclusion, then you failed to read the class. Arcane Strike(5 levels before any other class), Rapid Metamagic(2 levels before other casters qualify), 2 Uses of Sudden Quicken(One at 9th, the second at 15th, Something a standard spontaneous spellcaster Cannot qualify without the use of Flaws for additional feats), and Frightful Presence.
That seems like a substantial amount of things in addition to its passive abilities, especially when compared to a Sorcerer who receives Spellcasting and a Familiar.
I did not want the character to end up huge. 16-32ft tall and weighing 2-16 tons seems a bit much considering the character is still shaped like a Humanoid. And increasing size to that level without the Size related bonuses makes little sense.
6. Let's say I'm a player looking around for classes that let me play Dragon-y things. I want you to tell me, in your own words, what you think makes your class interesting, because as-is, it doesn't look like it'd be all that fun to play. Honestly, if my player came to me looking to play a class like this, I'd point them to Jarian's, as it's better written* and has more things to look forward to.
We seem to have a difference in opinion. I believe playing a spontaneous spell caster that is a Natural Gish and offers effective combat options would be fun.
I appreciate your honest. I've read Jarian's class and honestly have little desire to play one. These sames things could be said about playing a Sorcerer, there is very little there in terms of fun things to playwith besides the raw power of its spellcasting. I've created a class that can fufill a Gish role without much trouble, is a capable caster with a diverse spell list, and one that has enough flavor and substance to keep me interested.
*I'm not expecting you to be an English major or anything, but there are several poorly written abilities.
I have been more worried about the mechanical aspects of the class to date. I apologize for not adding final polish to the class before its mechanics are finished.
I can't tell what it is this actually does. Can you give me an example of it in play so that I can understand better, and could maybe help you word it better?
If your chosen lineage of Dragon was for instance Gold, then your associated type is Fire. When casting a spell that deals fire damage you would deal an additional point per die of damage. I am aware that I need to expand Draconian Ancestry to more clearly explain this point.
Half Dragon Ascendant: This ability as written extends your life, changes your type to dragon, and gives you d12 HD for your previous class levels. It shouldn't need to be as wordy as it is. I'd come up with something shorter, but it's 4 AM and I need sleep now.
It does not change your previous HD to D12s, but merely for current Hit Die to D12s. The Character has a D8 for levels 1-11 and a D12 for levels 12-20.
Thank you for your PEACH, see colored responses above. I would also like to draw attention to One of your draconic classes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12457564&postcount=231)
Its extremely dull, has a weaker breath weapon, and has fewer special abilities and more static bonuses. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Tavar
2012-12-13, 01:14 PM
That class appears to only be one level. So you have 19 other levels to get other stuff.
And, well, Sorcerer isn't a well designed class: basing your design off of that is pretty strange.
It's interesting that, despite being purportedly being a class about dragons, one of the most iconic features of dragons is a useless flavor ability.
Finally, this isn't a capable arcane caster. It might be a decent gish, but doing that would seem to, with this chassis, take up pretty much all of his power.
Mystic Muse
2012-12-13, 01:20 PM
Its extremely dull, has a weaker breath weapon, and has fewer special abilities and more static bonuses. Pot. Kettle. Black.
It also takes up one single level instead of twenty. You can take it at level one, then take nineteen levels of something else. They are not remotely the same thing.
The breath weapon is weaker but can be used every 1d4 rounds, and eventually bypasses resistance and immunities.
That class appears to only be one level. So you have 19 other levels to get other stuff.
And, well, Sorcerer isn't a well designed class: basing your design off of that is pretty strange.
It's interesting that, despite being purportedly being a class about dragons, one of the most iconic features of dragons is a useless flavor ability.
Finally, this isn't a capable arcane caster. It might be a decent gish, but doing that would seem to, with this chassis, take up pretty much all of his power.
A 1 level class that grants very power full abilities that scale all the way up.
Either its poorly formatted and is a full class. Or is a broken 1 level dip. Either way, its poorly done.
After rereading it, It is indeed a one level Dip. You are correct.
Of course the class is not as capable of a caster as a sorcerer or wizard, but having access to the sorcerer/wizard list, rapid metamagic, and sudden quickens it is capable of casting a variety of spells at full caster level. It will never have the raw power a Sorcerer or Wizard will, but it has enough casting to negate many character classes entirely. The casting alone is enough to rank it near Tier 3.
It is meant to be a Gish, so I would hope that it can be a decent one. Remember, I'm not shooting for a Tier1/2 Gish casting 9th level spells.
Either way, I think we are looking at different power levels. This will never be a class that out casts a Wizard, especially a well made wizard.
It also takes up one single level instead of twenty. You can take it at level one, then take nineteen levels of something else. They are not remotely the same thing.
The breath weapon is weaker but can be used every 1d4 rounds, and eventually bypasses resistance and immunities.
And nothing about getting all of that for a single level strikes you as broken? There are 20level core classes that get less.
Tavar
2012-12-13, 01:35 PM
[QUOTE=Zman;14372608
Of course the class is not as capable of a caster as a sorcerer or wizard, but having access to the sorcerer/wizard list, rapid metamagic, and sudden quickens it is capable of casting a variety of spells at full caster level. It will never have the raw power a Sorcerer or Wizard will, but it has enough casting to negate many character classes entirely. The casting alone is enough to rank it near Tier 3.
It is meant to be a Gish, so I would hope that it can be a decent one. Remember, I'm not shooting for a Tier1/2 Gish casting 9th level spells.
Either way, I think we are looking at different power levels. This will never be a class that out casts a Wizard, especially a well made wizard.[/QUOTE]
Not saying it's a wizard. I'm saying it's not a capable arcane caster. There's a difference.
Mystic Muse
2012-12-13, 02:11 PM
And nothing about getting all of that for a single level strikes you as broken? There are 20level core classes that get less.
Not at all. It's not like you get every ability at once, and the only ones I'd say are particularly strong are the immunities, and the un-resistable breath weapon, which don't come into play until level 15 and 18 respectively. If you're worried about either of those at those levels, your enemies are waaaaay too focused and weak.
Yes, I know there are level 20 core classes that get less. There are also level 20 core classes that get more, far better abilities.
I'd also argue that out of Rapid Metamagic, Arcane Strike, and sudden quicken, the only one that can really qualify as an active ability separate from spellcasting is Arcane strike. Both Rapid Metamagic and Sudden Quicken aren't really separate abilities from the spellcasting, they're abilities that amplify the spellcasting.
However, if you think that that Half-dragon is broken, I don't think there's really any more for us to talk about, as we're apparently not going to see eye-to-eye on balance levels, among other things.
It doesn't look like we will see eye to eye on balance issues. Both of you few the class is too weak and doesn't offer enough. If that proves to be the case I will make modification in further revisions. But until I have time to playtest the class and find out if you are right, then I'm not going to increase the power of the class or add any more abilities.
Tanuki Tales
2012-12-18, 04:09 PM
My comments:
The bonus feat entry is misleading and should be renamed. The character doesn't actually get those feats, as you've worded it, but are treated as if they have them. Which means they don't qualify for feats or prestige classes that require a character to have them.
The dragonblood subtype is one word.
Why is Breath of the Dragon so limited in use?
Might of the Dragon mentions that it increases the character's size category, but it's not actually shown to do so. Also, why no stacking with templates?
Sight of the Dragons is a weird class feature, if an expected one. Darkvision at level 8 (and only as good as any base race) is kind of a crappy thing to hand out and if memory serves, a Dragonborn gets better goodies than this class feature pays out by 10th level.
With Hide of the Dragons, do those +1 stack or does the Dragon Ascendant only ever have +1 Natural armor? DR X/Magic is pretty much awful by the by, especially given out so incredibly late in the class.
Why are Presence of the Dragon and Intellect of the Dragon class features? They should be rolled into Might of the Dragon to cut down on feature glut.
Wings, Tooth and Claw should be better consolidated into a single class feature and it should be mentioned in the ability when each specific ability is gained.
I wonder if most of Draconic Immunities just comes too late.
Mantle Dragon comes online pretty late and is so small as to not matter. Generally Spell Resistance that matters is 11+HD/CR.
Dragon Ascendance is a really strong capstone. Not much else to say about that.
All in all, I think this class will turn out pretty good with more polishing. I'm not a big dragon fan, but it does meet it's end goal of making a competitive dragon based base class.
My comments:
The bonus feat entry is misleading and should be renamed. The character doesn't actually get those feats, as you've worded it, but are treated as if they have them. Which means they don't qualify for feats or prestige classes that require a character to have them.
Good point, I will clarify the feature to have them grained for prerequisites.
The dragonblood subtype is one word.
Thank you. I will fix that.
Why is Breath of the Dragon so limited in use?
Because I used he horrid Half Dragon Breath Weapon as an initial balancing point. It's meant to be a more fluffy addition to the class, not a mainstay ability.
Might of the Dragon mentions that it increases the character's size category, but it's not actually shown to do so. Also, why no stacking with templates?
I initially had the Size increase listed under Might of the Dragons. It more references the Capstone.
Sight of the Dragons is a weird class feature, if an expected one. Darkvision at level 8 (and only as good as any base race) is kind of a crappy thing to hand out and if memory serves, a Dragonborn gets better goodies than this class feature pays out by 10th level.
Again, more smaller fluffy abilities. But, for any race without those base visions it it a help and consistent with established dragon themed classes.
With Hide of the Dragons, do those +1 stack or does the Dragon Ascendant only ever have +1 Natural armor? DR X/Magic is pretty much awful by the by, especially given out so incredibly late in the class.
The Natural Armor bonuses stack. DR-Magic is pretty aweful, but it is consistent with Offical Dragons and roughly CR Equivelant.
Why are Presence of the Dragon and Intellect of the Dragon class features? They should be rolled into Might of the Dragon to cut down on feature glut.
I could easily combine them. I though it made the table easier to read.
Wings, Tooth and Claw should be better consolidated into a single class feature and it should be mentioned in the ability when each specific ability is gained.
I agree, this is currently too cluttered and needs to clear and concise.
I wonder if most of Draconic Immunities just comes too late.
It's 3 levels earlier than you could get them taking Dragon Disciple. Yes, it late, but they fit the established content.
Mantle Dragon comes online pretty late and is so small as to not matter. Generally Spell Resistance that matters is 11+HD/CR.
It's CR Equivelant SR for Teue Dragons. It's not meant to be extremely powerful, but simply to offer a small amount of protection. Against a level Equivelant enemy it's still a 30% chance of being effective barring SR penetration boosts. And it's still way better than buy able SR.
Dragon Ascendance is a really strong capstone. Not much else to say about that.
It's certainly powerful, had to find something worth taking those last levels, jumping to Abjurant Champion or other PRC had to be a comparative draw, and definitively not a no brainier.
All in all, I think this class will turn out pretty good with more polishing. I'm not a big dragon fan, but it does meet it's end goal of making a competitive dragon based base class.
Thank you for your PEACH, and I completely agree it needs more polish, I've been more concerned with getting the mechanical aspects down I've ignored the rest.
Tanuki Tales
2012-12-18, 05:52 PM
Because I used he horrid Half Dragon Breath Weapon as an initial balancing point. It's meant to be a more fluffy addition to the class, not a mainstay ability.
Why? One of the big things about dragons is their breath weapon, especially with cool spells like Animate Breath and the multiple breath manipulating feats introduced in the Draconomicon.
I initially had the Size increase listed under Might of the Dragons. It more references the Capstone.
I'd remove the reference then, to prevent confusion.
Again, more smaller fluffy abilities. But, for any race without those base visions it it a help and consistent with established dragon themed classes.
But it gives nothing really to those races that already have them. Why not beef it up some so that it's a valuable investment for them?
The Natural Armor bonuses stack.
Alrighty.
DR-Magic is pretty aweful, but it is consistent with Offical Dragons and roughly CR Equivelant.
But you don't need to stay with that. Just because you're basing off of official material and that's how official material chose to do things, doesn't mean you need to follow them, especially when you know it's flawed.
Let me show you what I did to keep DR/Magic but make it suck less when I did the Red Dragon Heritage for my Wyrd-Blooded class (which got remade into the Scion of Legacy and which I eventually plan to re-do for a Project G entry sometime down the line):
Iron Scales (Ex): At 5th level, a Wyrd-blooded’s skin becomes a lattice work of scales that are invisible to the naked eye. The Wyrd-blooded gains Damage Reduction equal to half their total Hit Dice. This damage reduction can only be bypassed by a weapon who’s total enchantment bonus is greater than or equal to half the Wyrd-blooded’s total Hit Dice.
I could easily combine them. I though it made the table easier to read.
The table is honestly a mess as it is right now.
It's 3 levels earlier than you could get them taking Dragon Disciple. Yes, it late, but they fit the established content.
I reiterate, this is homebrew here; if you think it's flawed and other people agree it's flawed as well, you can change it as you see fit. You don't need to be in line with WoTC's bad design decisions.
It's CR Equivelant SR for Teue Dragons. It's not meant to be extremely powerful, but simply to offer a small amount of protection. Against a level Equivelant enemy it's still a 30% chance of being effective barring SR penetration boosts.
Ok, let's do an example scenario here:
Let's say that a level 14 wizard is CR 14 for the sake of argument. He bypasses our Dragon Ascendant's SR on a 7 or higher, which, as you correctly stated, means that our DA is resistant 30% of the time before anything designed to blow up SR.
But that's not how the game tends to pan out.
What if the wizard took both Spell Penetration and it's Greater brother? Reasonable feat choices for a 14th level wizard, since SR does quickly become a problem. So now our DA only resists 10% of the time.
Our wizard is probably smarter than that though. He has Assay Spell Resistance prepared, along with some items that raise up his caster level. Now he doesn't even need to roll to blow through our poor Dragon Ascendant.
But if our Dragon Ascendant had SR equal to his level+11, that same wizard would only succeed on bypassing it 50% before investing in bypassing SR, which is a much better investment and more reasonable defense on the part of the Dragon Ascendant.
And it's still way better than buy able SR.
No, it isn't. It's better than Spell Resistance Armor, but not anything that allows the casting of the various Anti-Spell spells. Custom items are buy-able and craft-able and they blow this class feature out of the water.
It's certainly powerful, had to find something worth taking those last levels, jumping to Abjurant Champion or other PRC had to be a comparative draw, and definitively not a no brainier.
To clarify, it's powerful because it makes the character a True Dragon. This opens a massive gateway for cheese and similar things, but you only get it once the game has been shattered over the player's knee anyways.
And to be honest, a capstone shouldn't be the reason the player sticks with the class to the end. It should be the reason they decide to pick level 20 instead of an attractive dip (like in a Maneuver using class) and a reward for sticking through the class for 20 levels. You lose characters to multiclassing long before you ever hit 20.
Thanks again for the feedback, I'll take them under consideration. I'm doing some playtesting currently, and won't be making any mechanical changes until after. If it plays weak, I'll incorporate some of these changes.
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