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tbok1992
2012-12-06, 02:45 PM
So, in the D&D planar cosmology, we know of two ultra-powerful fiendish races that are essentially the precursors of the current fiendish races, the Obyriths for the demons and the Baernoloths for the Yuggoloths. Now, in Planescape, we also know of the Rule of Three, which is that, basically, things on the planes always come in threes. So, logically, this should mean that there is also a a precursor race for the Devils. But, what would they be like, and are there any hints that one could extrapolate their origins from in D&D lore?

Discuss.

Morithias
2012-12-06, 02:50 PM
So, in the D&D planar cosmology, we know of two ultra-powerful fiendish races that are essentially the precursors of the current fiendish races, the Obyriths for the demons and the Baernoloths for the Yuggoloths. Now, in Planescape, we also know of the Rule of Three, which is that, basically, things on the planes always come in threes. So, logically, this should mean that there is also a a precursor race for the Devils. But, what would they be like, and are there any hints that one could extrapolate their origins from in D&D lore?

Discuss.

Wasn't it stated that they were Angels, who took parts of the demonic hoards onto themselves to better fight them in the fiendish codex 2?

So...uh...The Demons?

Tvtyrant
2012-12-06, 02:52 PM
The creatures are called Baatorians, and Hell used to be called Baator. In D&D 3.5 Baator was ruled by an effectively unkillable creature called Zargon (bit tentacle thing.) Zargon got kicked out, and Baator was made into Hell.

Prime32
2012-12-06, 03:46 PM
Yeah, the devils were originally angels who were tasked with fighting demons, back in the early days of the multiverse before alignments were really a thing. Then they offered to punish evil mortals so they wouldn't support demons, and to move things to Baator so the other angels wouldn't get squicked out. They're allowed to tempt people towards evil because of loopholes in their contract with Heaven.
FC2 has all the details.

Analytica
2012-12-08, 07:53 AM
Are there any more detailed sources for the Ancient Baatorians though? Also, I am not sure if the Pact Primeval thing in the Fiendish Codex was part of the cosmology in 2E/Planescape or not.

Eldan
2012-12-08, 08:12 AM
Are there any more detailed sources for the Ancient Baatorians though? Also, I am not sure if the Pact Primeval thing in the Fiendish Codex was part of the cosmology in 2E/Planescape or not.

No, the Fiendish Codices pretty much changed hte entire backstory of the lower planes, while leaving much of the current politics the same. Asmodeus certainly wasn't a fallen angel or archon back then.

Asheram
2012-12-08, 10:11 AM
Yeah, the devils were originally angels who were tasked with fighting demons, back in the early days of the multiverse before alignments were really a thing. Then they offered to punish evil mortals so they wouldn't support demons, and to move things to Baator so the other angels wouldn't get squicked out. They're allowed to tempt people towards evil because of loopholes in their contract with Heaven.
FC2 has all the details.

Which by the way proves how big a magnificent bastard Asmodeus really is

afroakuma
2012-12-08, 10:55 AM
Are there any more detailed sources for the Ancient Baatorians though? Also, I am not sure if the Pact Primeval thing in the Fiendish Codex was part of the cosmology in 2E/Planescape or not.

Ancient Baatorians are intentionally obscure. Zargon being made into one was a joke; he'd already existed prior to 3E and had no link to them, and being a slime-monster on the Prime isn't exactly good cred for being the real deal in Asmodeus-proof devil precursors.

So here's what you get to know about them:

The ancient Baatorians predated the baatezu and are the true natives of the plane. You've met their lowest form - nupperibos, which devils capture, corral and eventually melt into lemures, the lowest form of their own kind. Left alone, nupperibos eventually evolve into higher forms of baatorian - and that's something the baatezu greatly fear.

The hypothesis behind their disappearance has little to do with Asmodeus; instead, it is theorized that they transcended corporeality ages ago. Certainly they were not on the battlefield in the last days of the War of Law and Chaos.

Evidence of their existence persists; in the glaciers of Cania, shadowy shapes frozen in the eternal ice are posed as though doing battle with the baatezu they share their frosty tomb with. In the catacombs of Maladomini, encounters with bizarre and inchoate creatures have been reported. One such was an unseen creature that devoured the essence of light.

Whatever they were, it's likely that they were the opposite number of the obyriths at one time, and that Zargon, for all Elder Evils claims, is either not of their number or is some lesser entity related to them.

Draken
2012-12-08, 05:39 PM
As of Fiendish Codex II, Nupperibos are actually devils who failed spectacularly enough to be punished with a demotion into something at the same level of a lemure.

Besides Zargon, the only concrete thing I ever saw of the Baatorians was in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of The Underdark, where the ancient baatorians were a mostl peaceful race to which belonged some truly powerful entities, such as the Knower of Names, who could know the True Name of any being in the multiverse and the Knower of Places, who knew exactly where any questant would find what he wishes.

And the batezu wiped them out, of course.

afroakuma
2012-12-08, 11:21 PM
As of Fiendish Codex II, Nupperibos are actually devils who failed spectacularly enough to be punished with a demotion into something at the same level of a lemure.

Besides Zargon, the only concrete thing I ever saw of the Baatorians was in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of The Underdark, where the ancient baatorians were a mostl peaceful race to which belonged some truly powerful entities, such as the Knower of Names, who could know the True Name of any being in the multiverse and the Knower of Places, who knew exactly where any questant would find what he wishes.

And the batezu wiped them out, of course.

Yeah, the 3.X era really squandered the whole Baatorian thing. FCII basically worked to expunge everything Hellish from 2nd Edition. Shame, really. Planescape was awesome.

Xefas
2012-12-09, 05:55 AM
Asmodeus certainly wasn't a fallen angel or archon back then.

IIRC, the story from Fiendish Codex II about Asmodeus being a fallen archon, and the whole bit about the Pact Primeval, explicitly states that it's just a story, and that it could be based on truth, or it could not.

If I recall, there is another, mostly incompatible, story about Asmodeus' creation that involves the serpent deities Jazirian and Ahriman. They made Law, and then they had a falling out over the whole moral axis bit - Ahriman wanted the multiverse to be an inherently Evil place, revolving around suffering, tyranny, and fear, while Jazirian wanted it to be a Good paradise without pain, strife, or conflict of any meaningful variety.

They fought, and their titanic battle pushed the planes outward into a ring, separating the Upper and Lower planes into their current places, and leaving the Outlands as the perfect neutral center of the multiverse. Ahriman's wounded body fell into Baator, the crater becoming Nessus, the Ninth Hell, and Jazirian fleeing to one of the Seven Heavens, where she lays to this day. Asmodeus is Ahriman's avatar/aspect/heart/soul/thing/etc.

Dunno where it's from. Maybe Serpent Kingdoms? The Dicefreaks Gates of Hell? The Fiendish Codex itself? An earlier edition? I forget. I know it's at least alluded to in the Fiendish Codex, somewhere, even if it's not spelled out in full.

Analytica
2012-12-09, 07:40 AM
It's old, I think. I wanted to use Jazirian as the World Serpent deity for a Rainbow Servant coautl cultist, and came across it then. Only part of that story was in Serpent Kingdoms. The rest... possibly one of the old artifact books?

Tvtyrant
2012-12-09, 11:29 AM
There also used to be this whole thing about Hell containing a massive life form that created the Ithiliads, whose empire would eventually become great enough to destroy Hell and free it. I forget which book that one is from, but I know it is an AD&D splat.