Hexblade vs Pyschic Warrior

[killem2]

So, I'm have just a fun debate with a buddy of mine right now over email, in regards if a hexblade is a stronger class or a psychic warrior is. Half-Giant is the race.

His step son is actually considering a hexblade, and I had suggested psychic warrior, and we got off on our own little discussion of power.

I am on the side of Pyschic Warrior.

Just wondering what the playground thinks? And this would be Flat out Hexblade and Pyschic Warrior.

[Big Fau]

Hexblade is a class that is literally 4 levels long. The only thing worth worrying about in the Hexblade's list is Polymorph, and the PsiWar gets access to Metamorphosis (a close relative of Polymorph).

PsiWar's lower BAB doesn't even matter; it has better buffs, more offensive options, a selection of debuffs, and can multiclass into the Slayer PrC for near-perfect BAB (at the cost of 1 level of psionic advancement). Even better since you can get Astral Construct and be better all-around, as you will have a powerful minion at your disposal.

The Hexblade's best use is as a 4-level dip, while the PsiWar is a solid class all around.

[limejuicepowder]

I think psychic warrior all the way. Hexblade is cool and can carve out a nitch for itself as a debuffer, but there's no way it matches the warrior's array of abilities.

This is especially true for the published hexblade (though I imagine most people that play a hexblade use the "updated" version of it, proposed by the original writer).

[Morbis Meh]

Well since Half Giants are naturally Psionic and get power points.... hands down Psychic Warrior, Expansion+ claws of the beast makes a literal beast. Top it off with psi crystal affinity+vigor+share pain and you have an almost unkillable fighter. Hexblades... well they kind of suck, if was a fixed verison it might be better but really all they have over psychic warrior is full BAB and that means nothing compared to the amount of versatility you can have with a psychic warrior and its powers.

[eggs]

Unless "Hexblade" encompasses things like Hexblade/Sorcerer, Hexblade/Knight of the Weave or Hexblade/Arcanamach builds, Psychic Warrior all the way. And even in the latter two situations, it might be up for debate.

With Linked Power, PsyWar has the best action economy efficiency of any of the gishes-in-a-can; PsyWar has the potential to use and abuse strong powers like Ego Whip, Temporal Acceleration, Anticipatory Strike, Metamorphosis and Astral Construct with all the brute force of full manifesters (though played that way, its staying power is abysmal); in the cases of the Hexblade's handful of decent powers, PsyWar generally gets similar abilities, gets them more often and gets them at the same time or earlier (ECL 10 potential for Metamorphosis with Mantled Warrior or ECL 14 access without v. ECL 14 access to Polymorph with Hexblade).

[Snowbluff]

Hexblades are terrible. Not Monk bad, since you can at least get 4 levels out of them.

Psychic Warrior can make the King of Smack. How much better can you get?

[Arcanist]

Psychic Warrior can make the King of Smack. How much better can you get?

Being a Tippy Wizard for one, but that is hardly the point :smalltongue:

I cannot see how people are saying that Hexblade is 4 levels long when almost everything in that build could have been obtained a level earlier with a single level of Sorcerer and a 2 level dip in Paladin of whatever the hell you want, but to be fair most Gish-in-a-cans can easily be out done with minor levels of optimization. I'm curious, what is the level of optimization for your game?

[eggs]

I cannot see how people are saying that Hexblade is 4 levels long when almost everything in that build could have been obtained a level earlier with a single level of Sorcerer and a 2 level dip in Paladin of whatever the hell you want, but to be fair most Gish-in-a-cans can easily be out done with minor levels of optimization. I'm curious, what is the level of optimization for your game?
The point of level 4 is usually the Dark Companion and Mettle, which makes it a comparison of Paladin 3/Pious Templar 1 - a comparison where the Hexblade comes out a feat ahead and doesn't compete with PrCs for level 6-20 levels, and a situation with which Hexblade levels would stack for most purposes (Cha to saves, layered passive debuffs).

[Psyren]

Hexblades are also stuck with light armor and no shield if they want to avoid ASF. Low level Psywars meanwhile can pile on heavy armor and shields without issues, giving them stronger defenses (and less MAD) at lower levels. Throwing in Mantles or your Soulbound weapon makes them even more deadly.

But even without shapeshifting, Psywars are extremely dangerous in a fight. Their greatest source of synergy between might and magic centers around their ability to manipulate action economy - swift-action teleportation, pounce, granting themselves extra actions, splitting their minds, etc. Hexblades, for all their BAB, can't hope to keep up.

And if you do throw in shapeshifting, they end up with a pet rock on whom they can duplicate all of these buffs.

[killem2]

Because he really wanted hexblade and he REALLY wanted half giant, I suggested the primordial version, with a racial trait to help offset the penalties from dragon 306.

He said no and wanted straight half-giant. I'm going to talk to him about psy warrior because I have always felt it encompassed the wizard/warrior feel.

[Snowbluff]

I cannot see how people are saying that Hexblade is 4 levels long when almost everything in that build could have been obtained a level earlier with a single level of Sorcerer and a 2 level dip in Paladin of whatever the hell you want, but to be fair most Gish-in-a-cans can easily be out done with minor levels of optimization. I'm curious, what is the level of optimization for your game?

Yeah, most Gish in a Can types can be done except for:

Duskblade, as Full Attack Channeling is unique AFAIK.

Psychic Warrior has bonus Feats, allowing for more complex melee builds. Sure, you'll Metamorph/etc better as a Psion, but you'll be hurting even more on feats.

Seeing as Duskblade is not an option, the GiaC winner here is PsyWar.

[Psyren]

Show him the Hexcrafter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/hexcrafter) Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) from Pathfinder. That can compete with a Psywar power-wise and should still have the flavor he's looking for.

[Darth Stabber]

Hexblade is the worst gish in a can (or second worst if you include partial divine casters)
Assuming srd + book printed in and partial divine casters
Psychic warrior>duskblade>ranger>hexblade>paladin
if we open it up it gets even worse
psychic warrior>duskblade>ranger=paladin>duskblade, paladin gets a lot of help in splats, as does ranger. Psiwarrior is just really good, and when you add slayer to it, it gets pretty scary. Duskblade is just a fantastic damage dealer, it is fairly easy to squeeze a metric ton of damage out of it, but it has a lower optimization ceiling than psiwar, but it does have a higher floor. Paladin with some ACFs and Battleblessing can get some real potential, but it has a very low optimization floor. Ranger is gish/skillmonkey, it has some interesting potential, but without scout and the multiclass feat it really has a herd time keeping up on damage output (and even then it out damaged by most things), but it is a good secondary skillmonkey. Hexblade just can't compete, it has too low a floor and ceiling. Any power in builds involving hexblade almost invariably involve utilizing some prc abilities and none of the hexblade abilities other than mettle and save boosts.

Psychic warrior is exactly what a gish in a can should be doing, awesome buffs and some fun tricks. Duskblade is a weird take on the concept, using blastomancy to fight better, as opposed to conj and trans. Usually I would rather use a suel arcanamach build over duskblade build (though nothing stops both), but db does work, especially with arcane strike.

[Rubik]

Yar. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988) Obligatory White Text

[Twilightwyrm]

Because he really wanted hexblade and he REALLY wanted half giant, I suggested the primordial version, with a racial trait to help offset the penalties from dragon 306.

He said no and wanted straight half-giant. I'm going to talk to him about psy warrior because I have always felt it encompassed the wizard/warrior feel.

Well if he's truly set on a Hexblade Half-Giant, there's likely very little you can do to dissuade him from it, if he's in it for the concept rather than the relative power level. Further, if he is looking for a warrior-wizard feel, I'm not sure how convincing Psychic Warrior is as a replacement, as one can quite credibly argue that it is a warrior-psion feel. This may be similar in terms of power level, but is vastly different in terms of character concept. Hell, thematically speaking, Duskblade makes a hell of a lot better warrior-wizard than a Psychic Warrior does (and if warrior-wizard theme is what he is after, I would recommend this to him before I'd recommend Psychic Warrior).
On the other hand, if power is a primary concern of his, by all means, divulge to him the greatness of the psychic warrior.

[Urpriest]

Since the race is Half-Giant, likely he already considered Psychic Warrior before choosing Hexblade, and likely it was rejected not for power reasons but because it doesn't fit the concept. I'd ask if the fondness for Hexblade is primarily about the curses, or about being an arcane gish.

[Psyren]

Since the race is Half-Giant, likely he already considered Psychic Warrior before choosing Hexblade, and likely it was rejected not for power reasons but because it doesn't fit the concept. I'd ask if the fondness for Hexblade is primarily about the curses, or about being an arcane gish.

Which is why I reiterate Hexcrafter Magus - they get both!

[Draz74]

In defense of the Hexblade, it can make a pretty good entry into certain PrCs. Sometimes maybe even better than Duskblade for certain PrCs. Maybe.

I'm particularly fond of Hexblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Crusader 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 9, as well as the (tweaked) Iron Chef Silver Medalist Hexblade 8 / Arcane Archer 2 / Divine Champion 10.

None of this changes the fact that Psychic Warrior is most definitely a stronger class all-around.