New player looking for easy class

[Sgtpepper]

I am new to DnD and would like someone to explain and show a character that is easy to play and enjoyable. Also to give some advice and tips for feats skills. 3.5 edition.

[obryn]

Any idea which edition you're playing? The answer will largely depend on that!

-O

[Sgtpepper]

Sorry forgot that 3.5 edition

[Gildedragon]

Any thoughts on what you want to do? The fun depends a lot on what sort of concept you want to play.
Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, and all ToB classes are pretty easy to build for.

[Ulysses WkAmil]

Wizards in most all editions are incredibly fun, and at least in 4th edition easy to play. Rogues are also really fun as well. Like obryn said though, it depends on edition a lot.

[Sgtpepper]

I like a more flavorful class but one that can still compete with everyone else.

[LibraryOgre]

In 3.5, probably the easiest class is going to be a Barbarian. You have one special power to start with, and it works once a day. Your main goal is to be big and strong, and if you don't understand part of the game world (because you are new), pass it off as being a barbarian and not knowing any better. There's no spells to learn. Relatively few feats, with the best being "Trade bonus to hit for bonus to damage".

Barbarians can be hella fun to play, especially just starting out.

[Sgtpepper]

Sounds fun any certain feats and skills to max?

[RFLS]

Barbarian is a solid, well done class that doesn't have much to keep track of. After that, Rogue is a good choice. Neither of them stands up to spell-casters, but if you're new, that won't matter much. If you're truly concerned about keeping it simple, do not play any caster, especially a wizard.

If you're determined to play a caster for whatever reason, I would highly recommend a sorcerer. They get some flak on this forum for being weak compared to wizards, but that's like complaining that something's dim compared to the sun. Sorcerers cast the same spells day-in and day-out, and they tend to be good party faces.

You might be tempted by Fighters because of all those bonus feats, but I can tell you right now that they're incredibly weak compared to every single other core class.

So, simple melee core class recommendation would be Barbarian. Simple caster core class recommendation would be Sorcerer. Rogue is a good third choice if you don't like either of those.

EDIT: Damn, semi-ninja-ed.

[Wyntonian]

If you have a copy of Complete Arcane, a Warlock can be pretty fun. You get a magical death laser that you can shoot as much as you want, and some at-will spell-type things from a short list. Pretty simple :smallsmile:

[Lord Il Palazzo]

For a melee class, barbarian is good. A friend of mine had one as his first character and played him as a massively strong but massively dumb wrecking ball in dwarven form. He did great damage to anything that came within a sword's length all the way through the campaign (which ended around level 14).

For a barbarian, the Power Attack feat is a must. It lets you take a penalty on your rolls to hit in exchange for higher damage and the damage bonus doubles if you happen to be using a two-handed weapon. (It's the one Mark Hall was referring to.) As for skills, listen is always handy and intimidate is nice so you have something to do when "I hit it with my sword" isn't a great idea.

If you're looking for spellcaster, consider what you want to do and if any of these three fits the bill:

Blow stuff up, throw fire around, deal damage: Try Warmage.
Raise and command the dead, debuff enemies: Try Dread Necromancer.
Mess with people's heads, use illusions, be tricky and deceptive: Try Beguiler.

These three classes come with premade spell lists so they take away a lot of the book keeping and prep work that can make mages tough for new players. When you reach a level as a beguiler (for example) where you get new spells, you automatically know all of the beguiler spells you could cast at that level and can cast any of them without having to prepare in advance. You just keep track of how many spells of each level you can use each day and how many you have already used. You don't have to worry about picking out which spells to learn with each level up or about deciding in advance which ones you will or won't need for the day. You have them all whenever you could use them.

I'm particularly a fan of beguilers who make great thieves and tricksters. (They get lots of skill points and have a good list to pick from, besides having lots of spells that play very nice with their skills.) There's a new player playing one in the game I'm running now and he's having a blast experimenting with different spells and figuring out his favorites for various situations.


If you have a copy of Complete Arcane, a Warlock can be pretty fun. You get a magical death laser that you can shoot as much as you want, and some at-will spell-type things from a short list. Pretty simple :smallsmile:If this sounds good, you might also like Dragonfire Adept (which you can find here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)). Instead of Eldritch Blast (the magical death laser) you can breath fire as often as you want. As you gain levels, you get a bunch of "invocations" (spell-like effects) you can use whenever you want and enhancements to your breath attack (so it might deal acid damage, or put some enemies to sleep.) As a nice bonus, the stat that makes your fire breath better (harder to resist/avoid) is the same one that give you more HP (constitution).

[Wyntonian]

Raise and command the dead, debuff enemies: Try Dread Necromancer.


I'd actually recommend against this. Being a minionmancer is really, really complicated, and takes a lot of bookwork. Not an "easy mode" class. Fun, yes, but not simple.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I'd actually recommend against this. Being a minionmancer is really, really complicated, and takes a lot of bookwork. Not an "easy mode" class. Fun, yes, but not simple.True, it is the most bookkeeping heavy of those three classes (I still don't think it's that bad if you don't choose to focus on building an army of low level skeletons or something, but it is far and away the most complicated of those three.)

[MrRigger]

If you're looking for melee, I recommend Barbarian. It's a simple class to learn, and lets you learn a little bit about resource management, with your Rage uses per day and determining how much you want to Power Attack for to strike the best balance between reliable hitting and respectable damage.

If you're looking for melee and are willing to do a bit more reading, I recommend either Warblade or Crusader, from the book Tome of Battle. You'll have to do a little reading to understand how maneuvers work, but both are fairly simple classes and are really difficult to mess up. You can pick a bunch of maneuvers based purely on their names and still be effective.

I wouldn't recommend a spellcaster if you're looking for an easy class, but if you really want to go that route, look at Beguiler from Player's Handbook II, or Warmage from Complete Arcane. You don't have to worry about picking spells, all you have to worry about is counting how many spells you've cast per day.

MrRigger

[Arcanist]

Blow stuff up, throw fire around, deal damage: Try Warmage.
Raise and command the dead, debuff enemies: Try Dread Necromancer.
Mess with people's heads, use illusions, be tricky and deceptive: Try Beguiler.

The pre-made list classes are very excellent for beginners, however the hardest thing about playing isn't the level of power you're familiar with, it is how you are as a person. How well you are at organization can be the difference between you finding a spellbook caster (this extends to erudite as well) enjoyable or a sword meets face class. So your results may very.

Personally I am very fond of teaching players how to go the Skill-Monkey route first since it is easy to grasp, but difficult to master.

Regardless, I'd like to recommend the Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) and the Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm) to you. Both have the option of creating their own list, but have a limit. If you are familiar with JRPG's their system is very similar to the Magic point system.

I have an acquaintance on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/Ithquentbvare) that is attempting to teach people about 3.5 through a series of videos. (He does some Yugioh stuff as well, but let's just ignore that for now)

[Acanous]

If you want to try Barbarian, take a read through This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525).
It's a bit intimidating in length, but well written and fun to read. It'll let you know how to do any of the things you might want to do with a Barbarian, and what to cite as your sources so people who have been playing longer will know where to look to see how awesome you are.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

The pre-made list classes are very excellent for beginners, however the hardest thing about playing isn't the level of power you're familiar with, it is how you are as a person. How well you are at organization can be the difference between you finding a spellbook caster (this extends to erudite as well) enjoyable or a sword meets face class. So your results may very.While it's true that different people will like different play styles, it's probably best for a new player to have a fairly simple character. If you're just starting out, being asked to decide whether your spellbook should include Grease or Magic Missile or Silent Image can be a pretty daunting task. Those are all worthwhile spells, but having to pick one of them with virtually no knowledge of the system you'll be playing in isn't easy, and that's with only three options. A level 1 wizard has 39 spells from which to choose five or six, with many of those 39 looking good at first only to turn out to be pretty bad. Starting at higher levels just adds more options and more complexity.

The OP specifically asked for something "easy to play" and not having to worry about choosing and preparing spells makes warmages and beguilers much better for that than wizards or even sorcorers.

[Arcanist]

While it's true that different people will like different play styles, it's probably best for a new player to have a fairly simple character. If you're just starting out, being asked to decide whether your spellbook should include Grease or Magic Missile or Silent Image can be a pretty daunting task. Those are all worthwhile spells, but having to pick one of them with virtually no knowledge of the system you'll be playing in isn't easy, and that's with only three options. A level 1 wizard has 39 spells from which to choose five or six, with many of those 39 looking good at first only to turn out to be pretty bad. Starting at higher levels just adds more options and more complexity.

Like I said. Your results may vary. When I first started playing I started as a 1st level Wizard and picked up the magic system and thought it was simple enough for a monkey to learn and teach a class for monkeys on how to optimize magic (in sign language). Of course this was when I was 14 and didn't know that different people learn at different paces.

My friend on the other hand, wasn't as book-ish as me. He'd still to this day, prefer to swing his sword rather then pick up a book and nuke the entire universe to kingdom come.

To reiterate, Your results may vary. which is why I then proceeded to suggest Psions and Wilders. I believe they have the same thing as Sorcerers where every 3 levels they can change there spells (or powers in this case) known if they want. Might be remember an old house rule though. It is just a suggestion though (he can do research if s/he REALLY wants)


The OP specifically asked for something "easy to play" and not having to worry about choosing and preparing spells makes warmages and beguilers much better for that than wizards or even sorcerers.

"better" is relative and "easy to play" is just as relative, but as I recommended. Do research into these classes (Someone recommended Tome of Battle to him/her for Pete's sake), although I will admit that the full list access that Warmages, Beguilers and Dread Necromancers have is really neat if you're just starting out and don't have an interest in dumpster diving through sourcebooks just to have everything you would need for the day.

At higher levels of optimization/play you can always take Uncanny Forethought (EoE) which effectively makes your Wizard a Sorcerer with unlimited spells known (but that is for another discussion and another day).

[Amnestic]

Seconding Warlock/Dragonfire Adept. Invokers are generally fairly easy to get a grips with.

[docnessuno]

I'd suggest Scout, Warlock or Barbarian depending if he prefers archery, melee or blasting.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

"better" is relative and "easy to play" is just as relative, but as I recommended. Do research into these classes (Someone recommended Tome of Battle to him/her for Pete's sake), although I will admit that the full list access that Warmages, Beguilers and Dread Necromancers have is really neat if you're just starting out and don't have an interest in dumpster diving through sourcebooks just to have everything you would need for the day."Easy to play" may vary from one person to another, but one thing can certainly be objectively easier than another. A single choice each time you cast a spell is empirically less than a choice when you cast a spell plus one when you prepared it and one when you learned it (not to mention the extra decisions for all the spells you learned but didn't prepare and those you prepared but didnt' cast.) Given that our goal is "easy to play", I would say that a class with a one-to-one decision-to-action ratio is, in fact "better" than at least three-to-one. It may not be "better" in other ways (power, customizability, versatility, etc.) but those aren't what the OP asked for. He asked for "easy".

The fact that you learned Vancian* casting easily doesn't mean it's easier than all alternatives, it just means it (can be) easy. Would you actually argue that something less complex than that is not easier or that if your first character had been a warmage you would have had a harder time learning to use his magic than with your wizard? Are you really saying that being handed a list and told "this is what you can do" would have been more effort than, as you said, "dumpster diving through sourcebooks just to have everything you would need for the day"? (No offense, I'm just honestly having a hard time believing what you're saying. 1<3 seems pretty cut and dried, black and white, set in stone, etc. to me.)

This is all getting pretty well off topic. Shall we drop it and agree to disagree?

*Prepare a spell in advance and it's gone once you use it, for anyone unaware.

[Sgtpepper]

Thank you for all of the suggestions I will probably be making a barbarian.

[Zanthy1]

Basic things for barbarian:

High strength and constitution, then dex.

Feats: power attack

[Sgtpepper]

How effective is power attack?

[Amphetryon]

Thank you for all of the suggestions I will probably be making a barbarian.

Recommended stats priority depends a bit on playstyle, but is generally one of these:

STRENGTH/CONSTITUTION/WISDOM/DEXTERITY/INTELLIGENCE/CHARISMA

or

CONSTITUTION/STRENGTH/WISDOM/DEXTERITY/INTELLIGENCE/CHARISMA.

An argument can be made that WIS and DEX are of equal priority, but some find that to be DM-dependent. In either case, try your best to avoid penalties in the first 4 stats, depending on Character creation method.

Do you know what source materials you'll have available to make your Character, besides the PhB (Player's Handbook)? A list of such resources (and your expected starting level) would help tremendously in suggestions for Feat selection as you level.

[Sgtpepper]

Starting level 10. Sources: complete warrior, complete adventurer, both player handbooks, and unearthed arcana

[The Dark Fiddler]

How effective is power attack?

Power Attack is nice to have when you're fighting against something that's easy to hit, because it can add a bit of an extra punch. It becomes amazing if you combine it with some other feats and classes, where you can be doing huge amounts of damage in exchange for dropping your AC through the floor, but that's not really all that simple.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Recommended stats priority depends a bit on playstyle, but is generally one of these:

STRENGTH/CONSTITUTION/WISDOM/DEXTERITY/INTELLIGENCE/CHARISMA

or

CONSTITUTION/STRENGTH/WISDOM/DEXTERITY/INTELLIGENCE/CHARISMA.Have you given any thought to your race? Choosing your race comes down to playstyle like your abilities, as Amphetryon described above. Besides human (which is good for almost every class) the best options from the PHB are Dwarf (bonus to constitution, penalty to charisma, no movement penalties in medium or heavy armor, but 20 ft. base movement) and Half-Orc (Bonus to strength, penalties to intelligence and charisma, 30 food base speed, 20 in medium or heavy armor)). If you want to favor offense, go with a half-orc. If you want to favor defense (via greater HP) go with a dwarf. A human won't give you any penalties or bonuses to stats, but gives you an extra skill point each level and an extra feat at level 1.

[Sgtpepper]

I'll be with other people so defensive sounds the best. Dwarf it is

[Kelb_Panthera]

How effective is power attack?

PA is -the- source for melee damage on a barbarian.

As was previously mentioned, it's an active feat that allows you to reduce your chance of hitting in exchange for increasing the amount of damage you do if you hit.

Fine tuning how much attack bonus to sacrifice is a matter of personal preference dependent on how you weigh risk v reward.

Technically there are a number of ways to mitigate the risk and maximize the reward until, in the ultimate expression of the feat's use, there's virtually no risk of missing and whatever you hit just dies because you can do more damage than it has HP's, no matter what it is. That requires a few more feats and a bit more op-fu, though.

So to answer your original question (how effective is power attack?); -VERY-.

[Sgtpepper]

What feats improve power attack?

[Amphetryon]

Starting level 10. Sources: complete warrior, complete adventurer, both player handbooks, and unearthed arcana

I would recommend Power Attack (as Mark Hall did, above; it's in the PhB) and Extra Rage (Complete Warrior); if you are playing a Human, you can select both at level 1. In that case, at 3rd level, I like Instantaneous Rage (Complete Warrior), so that you can Rage as a response in order to avoid falling into the negative HP range on a lucky Critical against you. At 6th level, I'd consider Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior), which requires an investment in the Intimidate Skill (which is on the short list of Skills I find a Barbarian should max, along with Survival and Jump/Climb). At 9th level, Cleave (PhB) is often recommended as a follow-up Feat to Power Attack; make sure to talk to the DM about expected encounters, as Cleave can feel very useless if the DM tends toward large, single monsters or tactically savvy foes. If a discussion with the DM makes you believe Cleave might not be used very often, Lunging Strike (PhB 2) may be more to your advantage.

If you are not playing as a Human (or are playing as a Non-Human without Flaws, in any event), truncate the list so that my 9th level suggestion(s) are delayed until 12th level.

If you are playing as a Human with Flaws and do not mind adding a level of complexity to your build, consider the Flaws Shaky and Vulnerable in exchange for taking Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) and Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer). Fair warning: Use of these Feats may feel VERY strong in some campaign styles - especially if folks are new to 3.5 - so check with your DM.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I believe they have the same thing as Sorcerers where every 3 levels they can change there spells (or powers in this case) known if they want. Might be remember an old house rule though. It is just a suggestion though (he can do research if s/he REALLY wants)

Yeah... that's a houserule.

[Sgtpepper]

Those feats look nice. I'll have to try them

[Kelb_Panthera]

To clarify, Leap attack increases the damage you deal via power attack if you charge the enemy by jumping across at least the last 10 feet of the charge, and shocktrooper allows you to take the penalty for power attack to your AC instead of your attack bonus on a charge (amongst a couple of other things). Just those two will allow you to do rather dramatic amounts of damage when you charge an enemy.

In fact, that feat chain (Power attack and shocktrooper) is 2/3 of the basis for what's called an ubercharger; the other part being the pounce special ability, usually gained by giving up the barbarian's fast movement via complete champion's spirit totem alternate class feature.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah... that's a houserule.

No it isn't. He just remembered the number of levels wrong.

It's every other level starting at level 4, IIRC. I'm certain that's right for sorcerer, at least.

Edit: double-checked the SRD. That's definitely how it works for a sorcerer, but it appears the psionicists don't have that option.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What feats improve power attack?

Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, mostly.

But feats ain't the only thing. Valorous weapon and Frenzied Berserker (what, you thought you took it for the Frenzy? Heh) are major things when going for maximum output with Power Attack. And then there's Pounce to take full advantage of the stuff. Whirling Frenzy for the extra attack is also good.

Edit: @^: ...I'm gonna have to check, but sounds like you're confusing Sorcerer spell progression with the ToB classes.

Edit 2: You're right.

[The_Jackal]

My advice is: Don't worry about easy, or powerful, worry about fun. Read through the descriptions of the base classes, and pick one that appeals to you aesthetically. None of the game math in D20 is particularly challenging, and what will make you enjoy the game the most is something that appeals to you conceptually.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I strongly advise you disregard any suggestion of playing a Frenzied Berserker until you've got a firmer grasp on the game's mechanics.

Even expert players have to be careful to avoid having that prestige class turn them into more of a liability than an asset to their party. The phrase "walking tpk waiting to happen" gets tossed around alot in discussions on the class.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I strongly advise you disregard any suggestion of playing a Frenzied Berserker until you've got a firmer grasp on the game's mechanics.

Even expert players have to be careful to avoid having that prestige class turn them into more of a liability than an asset to their party. The phrase "walking tpk waiting to happen" gets tossed around alot in discussions on the class.

Yes. If you want Frenzied Berserker, this is for either a TO build, or you're maxing out Will Save and getting rerolls (the Indomitable Will feat and a no-wishes Luckblade that you carry around can really help).

[Amphetryon]

I strongly advise you disregard any suggestion of playing a Frenzied Berserker until you've got a firmer grasp on the game's mechanics.

Even expert players have to be careful to avoid having that prestige class turn them into more of a liability than an asset to their party. The phrase "walking tpk waiting to happen" gets tossed around alot in discussions on the class.

This. If you read the Prestige Class and decide you really want to try it, tell your DM right away, so he's forewarned. Then, if your DM is on-board, tell us, and we'll do what we can to minimize the likelihood of you slaughtering the rest of your party wholesale when/if you take any damage.

[Acanous]

yes...MINimize...>.>

[Answerer]

Crusader is, I think, the best answer. Though a Barbarian/Crusader's pretty awesome.

The thing with Barbarians is, while the class itself is simple, your feats become more important, and feats are hard. There are a lot of them, there are a lot of bad ones, and you don't get to fix mistakes easily.

Crusader gives you access to a number of maneuvers, which on the face of things, appears to make them more complicated. This is not true, however. Maneuvers, unlike feats, are easy to pick: just take what sounds cool, and it will be! And at level 1, Crusaders can choose 5 – out of 6 that they qualify for. So you only have to pick one as the "odd one out" – and what's more, two of them do almost the same thing.

A Crusader 1 can Ready all 5 maneuvers, so you don't have to worry about that. The Granting mechanic can be a bit understand from the book, but in reality it couldn't be simpler to execute: you have a deck of cards, each one with one of your Readied maneuvers on it. At the start of combat, you draw the number in parentheses next to your number of Readied maneuvers (2, to start). You draw 1 more card per turn until the deck is empty, at which point you shuffle all the cards and draw the original number again (so 2, at level 1). You can use any maneuver you've drawn (which does not affect the drawing or the shuffling, so go ahead and use those maneuvers!). It's a little hard to explain in words, but if you have someone there who knows the system, it's really easy to play.

And then you have a reasonably well-built character, who has a fair few tricks up his sleeve, but whose choices are kept to a minimum and introduced slowly, so you can get a feel for the system. They really are ideal.

[Disproportional]

*Snip*
*Pisst* No ToB

[Answerer]

*Pisst* No ToB
Wasn't in the OP, didn't see it in the first few responses even after someone else suggested it.

But really, that's a shame. Tome of Battle is by-far, hands-down, and without-competition the best-designed book Wizards of the Coast ever produced for Dungeons & Dragons 3.x. It's a book every group should have, use, love.

[Sith_Happens]

Wasn't in the OP, didn't see it in the first few responses even after someone else suggested it.

But really, that's a shame. Tome of Battle is by-far, hands-down, and without-competition the best-designed book Wizards of the Coast ever produced for Dungeons & Dragons 3.x. It's a book every group should have, use, love.

Post #26. OP's available books are CW, CAd, and PHBII.

[Arcanist]

Wasn't in the OP, didn't see it in the first few responses even after someone else suggested it.

But really, that's a shame. Tome of Battle is by-far, hands-down, and without-competition the best-designed book Wizards of the Coast ever produced for Dungeons & Dragons 3.x. It's a book every group should have, use, love.

... So, I take it you like Tome of Battle? :smalltongue:

[Answerer]

Post #26. OP's available books are CW, CAd, and PHBII.
Ugh, that's a particularly poor selection. CWar's got... Frenzied Berserker, Warchanter, Warshaper? CAdv's got... little and less. PHB2's got some good stuff, particularly the Beguiler (quite probably ideal for a first spellcaster), but eh.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maneuvers, unlike feats, are easy to pick: just take what sounds cool, and it will be!

Except Stone Dragon stances. Friends don't let friends take Stone Dragon stances.

Although I think there might've been one without the movement restriction...

[Answerer]

... So, I take it you like Tome of Battle? :smalltongue:
Well, I do. But more importantly, it really has no competition.

Even Expanded Psionics Handbook has the Soulknife, and Magic of Incarnum's got the Soulborn. Complete Champion's somewhere not too far behind them, and Complete Mage doesn't have much that's too offensive...

But beyond those, quality goes down fast. The Player's Handbook is a (bad) joke, and the Dungeon Master's Guide is what got us into a lot of this mess. The Monster Manual's got stupid abound, from the Allip to the Tarrasque.

The Complete series's got mostly Prestige Classes (although their base classes do show some particularly egregious design flaws... Samurai, yes, we're all looking at you, but we're not missing Ninja or Warmage), and those are mostly all over the place. The aforementioned Complete Mage and Complete Champion do pretty well, but they're purely prestige classes, feats, and spells: relatively easy. I'm going to continue to pretend that WotC never printed Complete Psionics...

The Outsides, well. Frostburn shouldn't even show up; shivering touch and ice assassin are just the tips of the iceberg (oh god, that was totally not intentional). Sandstorm's doing OK, but then there are the Marrulurk: I'm in favor of monstrous races that actually own their ECL, but these guys are more than just pushing it. Those ability score bonuses, those special features, my god. Stormwrack... I keep wanting to blame it for That Damn Crab, but no, it didn't do that; it's actually not really got anything too bad, just the usual meh-or-worse PrCs, feats, and spells. Cityscape's got Invisible Spell, Dungeonscape's got the Trapsmith...

Races aren't doing too well, either. Races of Stone gives us Shadowcraft Mage; enough said. Races of Destiny isn't too bad though I'm sure there's a PrC that gives up altogether too many spellcasting levels. Races of the Wild's got a few things, mostly in the form of poor PrCs.

Races of the Dragon... bwahahahahahahaha! Oh god, my poor aching sides...

Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium aren't bad, per se, but they do have an awful lot of filler that... almost never sees use.

Heroes of Horror, Archivist. Libris Mortis has a lot of problems, but I'll comment on the Necropolitan: sure, I love it making undead playable, but ultimately it really is too easy, at least assuming you start as one rather than having to work your way from level 1 (most likely with a dumped Con score). Lords of Madness, well, Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant exist. Their very existence, even as a hypothetical, is damaging to the game (but then, considering the subject and title, maybe that was good design?). Elder Evils has those stupid rules where worshiping one gets you free feats. Exemplars of Evil has Uncanny Forethought.

Fiendish Codex I is where we get Pazuzu from. Sure, he's not the only problem in it, but we'll stick with him. Actually, I lied: embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos definitely deserve another mention. Fiendish Codex II's actually not too bad, though most of the Devil-touched Feats are awful.

Draconomicon has its stupid True Dragon rule; that is hideous design, no matter what they meant with it. Dragon Magic isn't bad, though; the Dragonfire Adept's not amazing but it's solid, and the rest of it isn't terrible.

Tome of Magic... Truenamer. Those poor, poor people, who never again will enjoy ice cream...

I'll end with the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness. Which... where to start. Sacred Vow. Vow of Poverty. Vow of Peace. The damn Apostle of Peace, combining all of the above. On the other side, Cancer Mage, Disciple of Dispater, the original printing of the Ur-Priest.

I'm not getting into the setting-specific books (because I've already been at this for way too long), but FR's are almost all bad (the Champions books are OK enough), Eberron's got some real gems (Faiths of, anyone?), though much of the setting is doing ever-so-slightly better than WotC-average (faint praise, I know), and the rest are third-party (and therefore not even up to WotC's own depressing standards).


Tome of Battle, by contrast, has three base classes that are astoundingly close to one another in power, and right smack in the middle of 3.5's power as a whole. It has quite a few prestige classes, only one of which should worry anyone (and Ruby Knight Vindicators do involve several lost spellcasting levels). The Legacy weapons are a bust, but then that's really more Weapons of Legacy's fault than Tome of Battle's. White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge are problematic, but for the most part easily dealt with. That is so amazingly better than any other book I've mentioned above. It really just has no competition.


Except Stone Dragon stances. Friends don't let friends take Stone Dragon stances.

Although I think there might've been one without the movement restriction...
Eh, they're not as good, and the on-the-ground restriction is crippling in mid-to-high levels, but I've never made an adept who couldn't Mountain Hammer.


Ugh, that's a particularly poor selection. CWar's got... Frenzied Berserker, Warchanter, Warshaper? CAdv's got... little and less. PHB2's got some good stuff, particularly the Beguiler (quite probably ideal for a first spellcaster), but eh.
I forgot Shock Trooper. That one's important.

[Darth Stabber]

Ugh, that's a particularly poor selection. CWar's got... Frenzied Berserker, Warchanter, Warshaper? CAdv's got... little and less. PHB2's got some good stuff, particularly the Beguiler (quite probably ideal for a first spellcaster), but eh.

CWar is probably the best complete, so long as you avoid the base classes it presents. And you forgot Bear Warrior, the best barbarian PRC. Who doesn't want to be so angry that they turn into a bear?


Well, I do. But more importantly, it really has no competition.
…
Magic of Incarnum's got the Soulborn. …
Tome of Magic... Truenamer. Those poor, poor people, who never again will enjoy ice cream...

MoI has the Soulborn, too much blue, and is easily misunderstood, but those things aside it is my personal favorite supplement of 3.5. Incarnate and Totemist are both all sorts of fun and very reconfigurable day to day, in ways that only druids and binders can match them on.

ToM is better thought of as 3 books that share a cover. 1 is just kinda dull (shadowcasters), one is a horrible mess (truenamers), and one is a glorious collection of mechanical fun and bad@ss flavor (binders). The book needed more polish than it got, but I find the binder section to be FABULOUS

[Gwendol]

For the barbarian:

I suggest Half-Orc: that race simply screams mind-numbing violence and mayhem. You may want to take the Bear totem barbarian variant for the improved grapple bonus feat.

Feats:
1: Power attack
3: Cleave (or extra rage, depending on what the adventure looks like)
6: Headlong rush (Orc-blooded: double damage on a charge!)
At level 8, enter into Bear warrior (CW)
9: Leap attack

As for skills... balance is good (5 ranks to avoid being flat-footed when balancing), as are perception skills (spot, listen). You will want to put some points in survival, as you pick up scent and thus can track.

Equipment: not sure how much gold you will have to spend, but you want a 2-handed weapon. Falchion is likely the best due to the high probability of scoring a critical hit. Make it +1 magical and keen if you can afford it.

You will need some protection: mithral chain shirt +1 most likely. On top of that add various other sources of protection: amulet of natural armor.
Get some utility gear, like a magical back-pack, rations, and so on.

Get a light weapon for back-up: axe or short sword.
Get a sling for the occasional ranged option (the sling lets you add your strength to damage, so when you hit it counts).

Now go kick some skulls in! Rrrrawg!

[Malroth]

Gnome Illusionist/shadowcraft mage, you only memorize 1 spell in every slot you have "silent image" that spell becomes whatever creature from the summon monster/summon natures ally/planar binding lists you want it to that comes to life and kills your enemies for you.

[Darth Stabber]

For the barbarian:

I suggest Half-Orc: that race simply screams mind-numbing violence and mayhem. You may want to take the Bear totem barbarian variant for the improved grapple bonus feat.

Feats:
1: Power attack
3: Cleave (or extra rage, depending on what the adventure looks like)
6: Headlong rush (Orc-blooded: double damage on a charge!)
At level 8, enter into Bear warrior (CW)
9: Leap attack

As for skills... balance is good (5 ranks to avoid being flat-footed when balancing), as are perception skills (spot, listen). You will want to put some points in survival, as you pick up scent and thus can track.

Equipment: not sure how much gold you will have to spend, but you want a 2-handed weapon. Falchion is likely the best due to the high probability of scoring a critical hit. Make it +1 magical and keen if you can afford it.

You will need some protection: mithral chain shirt +1 most likely. On top of that add various other sources of protection: amulet of natural armor.
Get some utility gear, like a magical back-pack, rations, and so on.

Get a light weapon for back-up: axe or short sword.
Get a sling for the occasional ranged option (the sling lets you add your strength to damage, so when you hit it counts).

Now go kick some skulls in! Rrrrawg!

If you can get a flaw, throw in improved unarmed strike. It's very nice with bear warrior.

[TuggyNE]

Gnome Illusionist/shadowcraft mage, you only memorize 1 spell in every slot you have "silent image" that spell becomes whatever creature from the summon monster/summon natures ally/planar binding lists you want it to that comes to life and kills your enemies for you.

... That's not going to be exactly easy to build, per se, and it's not going to be at all easy to play. Not even a little.

[Morph Bark]

*snip*

It appears you think a book is bad if it has as much as one thing in it that is either too weak or too strong. That's pretty strong judgment.

[Gwendol]

If you can get a flaw, throw in improved unarmed strike. It's very nice with bear warrior.

What does it do for the bear warrior? I would imagine improved natural attack to be better?

[Darth Stabber]

What does it do for the bear warrior? I would imagine improved natural attack to be better?

You can make unarmed strikes and use natural weapons in the same full attack. Full iteratives of bear fists+bite+claw+claw. At lvl 20 that's 7 attacks per round as opposed to 3. And improved natural attack > multiattack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

... That's not going to be exactly easy to build, per se, and it's not going to be at all easy to play. Not even a little.

It's also not an option the OP even has. His table doesn't use Races of Stone.

[Socratov]

I'd say the easiest beginner class is warlock. You get cool pewpew powers, you get diet spellcasting and easy to handle fluff. You don't need much equipment and unless built for crowd control you don't need any attribute ever. (just remember to pick up ways to beat spell resistance before vitriolic blast and after retrain the feat)

[Gwendol]

You can make unarmed strikes and use natural weapons in the same full attack. Full iteratives of bear fists+bite+claw+claw. At lvl 20 that's 7 attacks per round as opposed to 3. And improved natural attack > multiattack.

Really? Does that apply to animal companions as well?

[Answerer]

CWar is probably the best complete, so long as you avoid the base classes it presents.
Not even close; that has to go to Complete Champion. The Devotion feats are largely excellent, and it finally made movement+full-attack a reasonable thing to gain.


And you forgot Bear Warrior, the best barbarian PRC. Who doesn't want to be so angry that they turn into a bear?
Fair enough; my list was off the top of my head.


MoI has the Soulborn, too much blue, and is easily misunderstood, but those things aside it is my personal favorite supplement of 3.5. Incarnate and Totemist are both all sorts of fun and very reconfigurable day to day, in ways that only druids and binders can match them on.
There's a reason I mentioned it, alongside Expanded Psionics Handbook, first. They're definitely the next two best-designed books after Tome of Battle. But the Soulborn and Soulknife exist. Also, Magic of Incarnum may have an excellent system, but the book is incredibly poorly organized.


ToM is better thought of as 3 books that share a cover. 1 is just kinda dull (shadowcasters), one is a horrible mess (truenamers), and one is a glorious collection of mechanical fun and bad@ss flavor (binders). The book needed more polish than it got, but I find the binder section to be FABULOUS
That's not really fair; it is one book and I'm treating it as such. Yes, the Binder section on its own is excellent.


It appears you think a book is bad if it has as much as one thing in it that is either too weak or too strong. That's pretty strong judgment.
You're right, it would be. Good thing that that wasn't actually what I said.

My contention was that Tome of Battle is the best-designed book in 3.5, because, among other things, it's the only one without said glaring broken thing. Ruby Knight Vindicator is tame compared to Shadowcraft Mage, Truenamer, etc.

[Kazyan]

I don't like Tome of Battle so much because it started the "nice things" fire, and you can't swing a homebrew Skill Trick without people whining about it. "Deserves nice things" doesn't mean "Deserves all of the nice things"; extreme versatility and power is why Tier 1 is Tier 1, after all. I played in an epic melee campaign, and one of the players with lots of ToB homebrew could replace my skillmonkey as one of the effects of one of their feats, pretty much completely incidentally.

Hey, you know what there aren't enough of? Homebrew disciplines. Most of which are better than Diamond Mind.

Hey, let's design some maneuvers that emulate some of the broken things that casters can do. It's only fair. By the way, here's a caster fix that doesn't let them do that anymore.

...

I think I need to take a break from this subforum. :smallfrown:

[Lord Il Palazzo]

You can make unarmed strikes and use natural weapons in the same full attack. Full iteratives of bear fists+bite+claw+claw. At lvl 20 that's 7 attacks per round as opposed to 3. And improved natural attack > multiattack.Well of course! Haven't you ever heard of bear-knuckle boxing?

[Morbis Meh]

I don't like Tome of Battle so much because it started the "nice things" fire, and you can't swing a homebrew Skill Trick without people whining about it. "Deserves nice things" doesn't mean "Deserves all of the nice things"; extreme versatility and power is why Tier 1 is Tier 1, after all. I played in an epic melee campaign, and one of the players with lots of ToB homebrew could replace my skillmonkey as one of the effects of one of their feats, pretty much completely incidentally.

Hey, you know what there aren't enough of? Homebrew disciplines. Most of which are better than Diamond Mind.

Hey, let's design some maneuvers that emulate some of the broken things that casters can do. It's only fair. By the way, here's a caster fix that doesn't let them do that anymore.

...

I think I need to take a break from this subforum. :smallfrown:

...This has almost no true application to the book, you're mostly jaded in regards to homebrew... something I will almost never touch. I agree with the barbarian and heck I think next game I may just play one for some giggles; however, if you take intimidating rage and put ranks into intimidate I suggest you ask you DM to sub in strength for charisma as the stat for intimidate. This is a legit, core suggestion found in the DMG that will allow the barbarian to cause his opponents to deficate before and after his turn :smallbiggrin:

[Kazyan]

...This has almost no true application to the book, you're mostly jaded in regards to homebrew...

Yeah. I am.

Gona go cool off now.

[docnessuno]

Not even close; that has to go to Complete Champion. The Devotion feats are largely excellent, and it finally made movement+full-attack a reasonable thing to gain.

My vote is for Complete Mage. The Abjurant Champion alone made gishes competitive.

[Answerer]

My vote is for Complete Mage. The Abjurant Champion alone made gishes competitive.
Complete Mage is good, but gishes didn't need the help as much as melee needed the ability to move and full-attack in the same round, so that's why I favor Complete Champion. You could make a Gish without Abjurant Champion (it was just harder and didn't turn out as well).

[Gavinfoxx]

Let's take a look at this...

Human, Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 6

Feats:
Power Attack
Battle Jump
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper

Items of note: A +1 Gloryborn Valorous Greatsword (a +2-equivalent weapon, Adamantine if possible) and a +2 Enhancement item of strength.

Assumptions: He starts with an 18 strength. He keeps his Jump, Tumble, Balance, etc. skills high.

Here is his attack routine on a Whirling Frenzy-enabled Heedless Charge, charging/jumping at the enemy to enable Battle Jump, with full power attack, at level 6:

Attack 1:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+6 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit

Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+10 strength (7 +3)
+1 Gloryborn
+12 Power Attack

Multiplier x3 = Battle Jump (x2) + Valorous (x2)

Damage on first attack is 6d6+72

So +12/6d6+72

Attack 2:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+6 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit

This is the same as the first attack, so +12/6d6+72

Attack 3:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+1 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit

+7 to hit

Damage:
2d6
+1 enhancement
+10 strength (7+3)
+1 Gloryborn
+12 power attack (power attack lasts for ALL your attacks this round, I believe)
(with x3 multiplier)

So this is +7/6d6+72

So total attack and damage for all of this maneuver is: +12/6d6+72, +12/6d6+72, +7/6d6+72. You take a -6 to AC from bab via heedless charge, and a -2 from charging in general, for -8 to AC. The idea being you kill whatever you charge all at once, and you rely on miss chances to not get hit rather than AC to not get hit.

[docnessuno]

1) The build is begging for Leap attack.
2) You are missing +2 to hit from charging.

[Darth Stabber]

You're right, it would be. Good thing that that wasn't actually what I said.
you didn't say it but, you did go through and talk smack about all the other books, berating them for errors in power. This is 3.5, demanding balance is pretty foolish

Me personally, I am will to accept that almost half of what shows up in any book is going to be fubar.

[Kaeso]

If anybody wants a class that's easy while still being effective, I'd recommend a Barbarian for multiple reasons:

1. It's a melee class, you don't need to bother with magic just yet. You smash stuff and you're done with it.

2. It has some decent skills, so you can get familliar with those.

3. It actually has class features, unlike the fighter, including the powerful rage. Rage is strong enough to compensate for bad stats and bad feats, giving you some leeway to mess around.

4. Barbarians are debatably the only non-magical core class that's worth a damn. With a decent build, they can even be on par with the ToB classes according to some.

So in short the barbarian is easy, fun and effective. It's very newbie friendly and thus a good class to learn the game with. Just put your highest stats in strength and constitution, get yourself a waraxe and yell "THOG SMASH" while you kill tiny men.

[Urpriest]

Let's take a look at this...

Human, Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 6

Feats:
Power Attack
Battle Jump
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper

Items of note: A +1 Gloryborn Valorous Greatsword (a +2-equivalent weapon, Adamantine if possible) and a +2 Enhancement item of strength.

Assumptions: He starts with an 18 strength. He keeps his Jump, Tumble, Balance, etc. skills high.

Here is his attack routine on a Whirling Frenzy-enabled Heedless Charge, charging/jumping at the enemy to enable Battle Jump, with full power attack, at level 6:

Attack 1:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+6 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit

Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+10 strength (7 +3)
+1 Gloryborn
+12 Power Attack

Multiplier x3 = Battle Jump (x2) + Valorous (x2)

Damage on first attack is 6d6+72

So +12/6d6+72

Attack 2:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+6 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit

This is the same as the first attack, so +12/6d6+72

Attack 3:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+1 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit

+7 to hit

Damage:
2d6
+1 enhancement
+10 strength (7+3)
+1 Gloryborn
+12 power attack (power attack lasts for ALL your attacks this round, I believe)
(with x3 multiplier)

So this is +7/6d6+72

So total attack and damage for all of this maneuver is: +12/6d6+72, +12/6d6+72, +7/6d6+72. You take a -6 to AC from bab via heedless charge, and a -2 from charging in general, for -8 to AC. The idea being you kill whatever you charge all at once, and you rely on miss chances to not get hit rather than AC to not get hit.

Spirit Lion isn't an option for the OP. Neither is Valorous.

On the other hand, I might suggest that, since the OP has access to Unearthed Arcana, they get Wolf Totem, since it trades out Uncanny Dodge (not all that useful, kind of situational) with Improved Trip (needs a bit of system-savvy to use, but even basic use will let you trip things).

[docnessuno]

Spirit Lion isn't an option for the OP. Neither is Valorous.

On the other hand, I might suggest that, since the OP has access to Unearthed Arcana, they get Wolf Totem, since it trades out Uncanny Dodge (not all that useful, kind of situational) with Improved Trip (needs a bit of system-savvy to use, but even basic use will let you trip things).

Battle jump is also out.

[Urpriest]

Battle jump is also out.

Ah yes, also Heedless Charge. I think Gloryborn is in the PHBII though, but if it's in Planar Handbook that's out too.

[Alabenson]

Assuming you're looking for a class that is both 1) easy to play and 2) easy to build a character in without being moderately useless, I'd have to reccomend playing a Warblade from ToB.

1) While the manuever system requires a little reading, it's still fairly intuitive once you get the hang of it.

2) Of the three ToB classes, the Warblade has the simplest recovery mechanic, just hit something to recover your manuevers.

3) Unlike many other classes, which require at least a modicum of spaltbook diving, the Warblade is nearly impossible to screw up. You could practically pick your manuevers and feats blindfolded and still be able to contribute to your party.

[Kaeso]

1) While the manuever system requires a little reading, it's still fairly intuitive once you get the hang of it.

I'm inclined to disagree, especially for a first game. A barbarian offers what the warblade can offer, trading in some effectiveness for ease (which is more important for starting gamers).

[Gavinfoxx]

Well a Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian is possible, at least... if UA/SRD is in.

[Torvon]

I like caster classes like the Beguiler. The big advantage is that you have
(1) all spells you know available all the time, and can cast what you want, and
(2) you only have a limited number of spells available.

This makes playing a lot easier than playing a wizard, where you know 3 bazillion spells, but have to prepare them every day anew.

It's a fun class, it's moderately powerful, and has lots of options.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Eh, they're not as good, and the on-the-ground restriction is crippling in mid-to-high levels, but I've never made an adept who couldn't Mountain Hammer.
I said stances. Most Stone Dragon maneuvers are fairly decent, but you still get the "get a smaller damage boost than other maneuvers of this level in exchange for a condition that can be avoided by a fortitude save" ones. Still, not that terrible if you plan on facing a lot of rogues or something.

I don't like Tome of Battle so much because it started the "nice things" fire, and you can't swing a homebrew Skill Trick without people whining about it. "Deserves nice things" doesn't mean "Deserves all of the nice things"; extreme versatility and power is why Tier 1 is Tier 1, after all. I played in an epic melee campaign, and one of the players with lots of ToB homebrew could replace my skillmonkey as one of the effects of one of their feats, pretty much completely incidentally.

Hey, you know what there aren't enough of? Homebrew disciplines. Most of which are better than Diamond Mind.

Hey, let's design some maneuvers that emulate some of the broken things that casters can do. It's only fair. By the way, here's a caster fix that doesn't let them do that anymore.

...

I think I need to take a break from this subforum. :smallfrown:

Alright, just stay off the D&D wiki (all two or three of them). It sucks (they all suck).


This is 3.5, demanding balance is pretty foolish

So... your response to complaints about 3.5 is that the other party should lower their expectations.

[Darth Stabber]

Really? Does that apply to animal companions as well?

If you mean multiattack, yes.
If you mean improved unarmed strike, a quick glance at the srd shows no reason why they couldn't take it, so have at haas.


I don't like Tome of Battle so much because it started the "nice things" fire, and you can't swing a homebrew Skill Trick without people whining about it. "Deserves nice things" doesn't mean "Deserves all of the nice things"; extreme versatility and power is why Tier 1 is Tier 1, after all. I played in an epic melee campaign, and one of the players with lots of ToB homebrew could replace my skillmonkey as one of the effects of one of their feats, pretty much completely incidentally.

Hey, you know what there aren't enough of? Homebrew disciplines. Most of which are better than Diamond Mind.

Hey, let's design some maneuvers that emulate some of the broken things that casters can do. It's only fair. By the way, here's a caster fix that doesn't let them do that anymore.

...

I think I need to take a break from this subforum. :smallfrown:
There was some "nice things fire" before the book of weaboo fightahn magic. All it did was give a non-homebrew way for them to have nice things with a higher optimization floor. And being mad at 1st party material for what goes on in homebrew is a little misplaced.

[Answerer]

you didn't say it but, you did go through and talk smack about all the other books, berating them for errors in power. This is 3.5, demanding balance is pretty foolish

Me personally, I am will to accept that almost half of what shows up in any book is going to be fubar.
Then you stipulate the point of the list. My contention is that Tome of Battle is different.

[Darth Stabber]

Then you stipulate the point of the list. My contention is that Tome of Battle is different.

I will grant you that ToB is a very balanced and very entertaining book, with few things being complete misses, and none of them are base classes. But it is still along the continuum of of good to suck that all other books are judged on, and it's not perfect. It isn't different in any way that MoI, ToM, or XPH aren't. A good knife is still a knife. The only argument that can be made to differentiate it is that it isn't magic, unlike the others, and even then the book goes out of it's way to muddy those waters.

[Morph Bark]

You're right, it would be. Good thing that that wasn't actually what I said.

My contention was that Tome of Battle is the best-designed book in 3.5, because, among other things, it's the only one without said glaring broken thing. Ruby Knight Vindicator is tame compared to Shadowcraft Mage, Truenamer, etc.

Alright. I'm glad we got that cleared up. :smallsmile:


I don't like Tome of Battle so much because it started the "nice things" fire, and you can't swing a homebrew Skill Trick without people whining about it. "Deserves nice things" doesn't mean "Deserves all of the nice things"; extreme versatility and power is why Tier 1 is Tier 1, after all. I played in an epic melee campaign, and one of the players with lots of ToB homebrew could replace my skillmonkey as one of the effects of one of their feats, pretty much completely incidentally.

Hey, you know what there aren't enough of? Homebrew disciplines. Most of which are better than Diamond Mind.

Hey, let's design some maneuvers that emulate some of the broken things that casters can do. It's only fair. By the way, here's a caster fix that doesn't let them do that anymore.

...

I think I need to take a break from this subforum. :smallfrown:

Well, if a DM were to allow homebrew, he'd better make sure there's limits on it. Like you say, there's stuff elevating melee and stuff bringing down casters, so if you'd use both of those, you're just switching stuff around rather than bringing them to the same level.

Which is one of the reasons I started the Homebrew Tier Compendium, though I still need to rate all the disciplines. :smallredface:

[Answerer]

I will grant you that ToB is a very balanced and very entertaining book, with few things being complete misses, and none of them are base classes. But it is still along the continuum of of good to suck that all other books are judged on, and it's not perfect. It isn't different in any way that MoI, ToM, or XPH aren't. A good knife is still a knife. The only argument that can be made to differentiate it is that it isn't magic, unlike the others, and even then the book goes out of it's way to muddy those waters.
A brand-new player can pick up Tome of Battle, see something that sounds cool, and play it as a viable and competent character.

That is not true of Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, or Expanded Psionics Handbook (the Soulborn, Truenamer, or Soulknife could easily sound cool). That is not true, I'd argue, of any other book WotC published for 3.5.

[genericwit]

With a Barbarian, if you're willing to sacrifice getting the highest tier of rage, you can get some awesome spell-like abilities through the Runescarred Berserker [although that might be 3.O, I'm not positive].

Either way, Barbarian can make a hell of a charge build, with built in pounce if you use the complete champion variant. Plus, you might be able to pick up track [I think you get survival], or cross class briefly into ranger to become a pretty awesome scout.

With the right feats, you can use Intimidate for crowd control, too.

Otherwise, get a nice Mithral Breastplate, something to shore up your will saves, a big ol' sword or axe, some ability enhancing items, and wail away on your enemies.

[Amphetryon]

A brand-new player can pick up Tome of Battle, see something that sounds cool, and play it as a viable and competent character.

That is not true of Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, or Expanded Psionics Handbook (the Soulborn, Truenamer, or Soulknife could easily sound cool). That is not true, I'd argue, of any other book WotC published for 3.5.

This is just my opinion, but the notion that nobody could play viable and competent Characters in his or her first 3.X campaign seems a mite hyperbolic. Were it true, it seems the edition would have been wildly unpopular, filled as it must have been in that case with nothing but virtually unplayable out-of-the-box options.

[Answerer]

This is just my opinion, but the notion that nobody could play viable and competent Characters in his or her first 3.X campaign seems a mite hyperbolic. Were it true, it seems the edition would have been wildly unpopular, filled as it must have been in that case with nothing but virtually unplayable out-of-the-box options.
Again, not what I said. I said "just picking what sounds cool," without doing comparisons of other options, relying on someone who already knows the system, etc. Furthermore, getting lucky is entirely possible: someone might think the Binder, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, or Barbarian sounds cool. Or take something high-power, but not know how to use it to its full potential. Whatever.

But they might also stumble upon the Samurai, and think that's cool. That's a bad situation.

[Amphetryon]

Again, not what I said. I said "just picking what sounds cool," without doing comparisons of other options, relying on someone who already knows the system, etc. Furthermore, getting lucky is entirely possible: someone might think the Binder, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, or Barbarian sounds cool. Or take something high-power, but not know how to use it to its full potential. Whatever.

But they might also stumble upon the Samurai, and think that's cool. That's a bad situation.
Getting lucky would involve just picking "things that sounded cool" and having it work out, would it not? There was nothing in your original comment that indicated this was a reasonable - or even possible - outcome without mentally including additional verbiage.

You did, in fact, say "A brand new player can pick up Tome of Battle. . . and play it as a viable and competent character. . . That is not true, I'd argue, of any other book published by WotC." I hope you'll forgive me for not placing the most emphasis on the nested qualifier, which reads as a parenthetical aside.

[Answerer]

My point was that Tome of Battle makes that a guarantee. I can tell a new player to look through Tome of Battle, pick anything he likes, and not have to worry about him.

Why are you twisting my words on this? I don't think my position is hard to understand. Tome of Battle is unique in that it doesn't have traps.

[Darth Stabber]

My point was that Tome of Battle makes that a guarantee. I can tell a new player to look through Tome of Battle, pick anything he likes, and not have to worry about him.

Why are you twisting my words on this? I don't think my position is hard to understand. Tome of Battle is unique in that it doesn't have traps.

Other than the mountain hammers, stone dragon is a trap. The mountain hammers are good, as is the 9th level maneuver, but almost everything else in that school is a waste of time and energy. And the 9th level maneuver is only okay because it lacks prereqs. And the problem is that moast newbs think that non-core will unbalance the game, thus not likely to play that book in the first place. I a game where eveyone has no idea of what they're doing, that high optimization floor will get the book banned in a hurry. Trust me, asking what someone thinks of ToB, on a purely balance level, is the surest way to determine if they have any idea what they're talking about. Thus newbs won't have access to it. It's excellent balance point and good design features actually work against it for why you think it's so great.

[Sgtpepper]

Besides this going from help to a which Source book is better. I have gotten more books and would like to try the frenzied berserker prestige class. This class sounds fun because seconds away from total party wipeout sounds like fun.

[Darth Stabber]

Besides this going from help to a which Source book is better. I have gotten more books and would like to try the frenzied berserker prestige class. This class sounds fun because seconds away from total party wipeout sounds like fun.

One of the two most fun barbarian prcs in existence. The other being bear warrior, so angry you turn into a BEAR

[Answerer]

Other than the mountain hammers, stone dragon is a trap. The mountain hammers are good, as is the 9th level maneuver, but almost everything else in that school is a waste of time and energy.
I don't agree. The Stone Dragon school is definitely weakest of them, but it's still viable. Besides, no one literally takes only one school's maneuvers. At some levels, it's not even possible.

[Morph Bark]

I don't agree. The Stone Dragon school is definitely weakest of them, but it's still viable. Besides, no one literally takes only one school's maneuvers. At some levels, it's not even possible.

While I do agree with Darth Stabber, at least with regards to the stances, which have that terrible "no more than 5 ft movement per turn or they get cancelled" rule, Stone Dragon's stuff is still better than most stuff Core melee gets.

But yes, focusing on one school alone is silly and in some cases not possible (level 2 especially, and many more for the Swordsage, at least if you switch out maneuvers for higher-level ones).

[Kelb_Panthera]

A note about the stone dragon stances; while you do have to be on the ground to initiate and maintain any of them, only 2 of the stances in the discipline require you not move more than 5ft at a time.

[Sgtpepper]

Any tips and advice about the frenzied berserker and barbarian build?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Any tips and advice about the frenzied berserker and barbarian build?

Don't. Risk of total party wipe is fun in the same way that critical fumble tables are fun. If you're running what's basically Toon, then it doesn't matter, and if you aren't, then it can easily wreak havoc on the plot or story.

[Morph Bark]

I once played in a party with a Frenzied Berzerker. Everyone in the party got methods of flight and/or quick teleportation or other getaway method, because if they weren't flying or could teleport away as an immediate action or block all his attacks without fail, they'd die. I was the only one without such methods, playing the bard with an ACF that allowed me to stop his frenzy. The bard died fighting devils. My second character's first death was against the Berzerker.

Do not go in unwarned. Don't let your party members go in unwarned. Be prepared.

[elvengunner69]

Any tips and advice about the frenzied berserker and barbarian build?

Fastest way is Barbarian 6/Frenzied Bezerker1

Feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Destructive Rage
Intimidating Rage

That's with a Human. I think you mentioned Unearthed Arcana so if you take 2 flaws you get 2 more feats(?)

Leap Attack would be worth it x2 damage on charge with Power attack.

[Amphetryon]

Advice given long ago to another potential FB. It wasn't my idea, but it works in my experience unless the Barbarian is regularly flying:

Find someone else in your party who has Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) on his/her spell list, or at least enough ranks in UMD to reliably use a wand of it. BUY THE WAND OF GREASE YOURSELF. Hand it to said party member, explaining, "Sometimes, inna heat o' battle, me go crazy. Not just Rage crazy, but 'Rawr, kill evverbuddy!' crazy. Can't see who is friend, who is not. When this happens, me needs you to use wand on me so me not kill all friends."

In addition, everyone in your party DOES need a contingency escape plan, in case the Grease caster is incapacitated when you Frenzy.

[Darth Stabber]

Don't. Risk of total party wipe is fun in the same way that critical fumble tables are fun. If you're running what's basically Toon, then it doesn't matter, and if you aren't, then it can easily wreak havoc on the plot or story.

In a toon, fb is made of magical fun sauce. Outside of toon, it offers a greater tension to every combat. The incredible hulk is a popular and interesting comic for the same reason. It isn't really a powergamer choice at that point though, it's a drama choice.

[Gavinfoxx]

Any tips and advice about the frenzied berserker and barbarian build?

Yea, dont.

[Sgtpepper]

Regardless of the potential tpk, I still want to play it so any optimization advice

[Darth Stabber]

Fastest way is Barbarian 6/Frenzied Bezerker1

Feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Destructive Rage
Intimidating Rage

That's with a Human. I think you mentioned Unearthed Arcana so if you take 2 flaws you get 2 more feats(?)

Leap Attack would be worth it x2 damage on charge with Power attack.

Shocktrooper is also a nice addition (but at this point you're übercharging), adding 4x BAB to every attack on a charge is nothing to sneeze at (plus what ever other bonuses you have should add up to disgusting), at the minor cost of being easier to hit than a 5' square. The downside is usually mitigated by the fact that flaming piles of rubble and ruin don't swing back.

Given that rage and frenzy explicitly stack you should be rolling at +10 or more strength from just rage and frenzy. With frenzy's extra attack, your throwing 4 or 5 attacks with those beefy bonuses.

Personally I like adding totemist 2 to melee builds, just because the ability to add 2+ natural weapons to the routine. Sure they only benefit from 3x PA as opposed to 4x your manufactured weapon is getting, but these attacks are just gravy anyway, and probably overkill, but the extra attacks at the cost of one BAB are a good deal.

[Morph Bark]

Regardless of the potential tpk, I still want to play it so any optimization advice

Human Barbarian1 1/Warblade 52 5/Frenzied Berzerker 1...[and so on]

Feats:
Power Attack [Human]
Cleave [level 1]
Destructive Rage [level 3]
Intimidating Rage [level 6]

If you have Flaws, get them at earlier levels and take Shock Trooper at level 6 and Extra Rage at level 3. Take Leap Attack at level 9.

1With Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion and Whirling Frenzy ACF from the SRD/Unearthed Arcana.
2You can still use maneuvers while raging!

You can also go Barbarian 4/Something 2/Frenzied Berzerker 2 and take one Warblade level at level 9 or later. Why? Because at level 9 or later, you can get both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics both at once with just one level. If you want, you can also pick up Mountain Hammer with a feat or one more level of Warblade. After that, continue on with Frenzied Berzerker. Consider Bear Warrior (one level) and Hulking Hurler (three levels).

[Darth Stabber]

You can also go Barbarian 4/Something 2/Frenzied Berzerker 2 and take one Warblade level at level 9 or later. Why? Because at level 9 or later, you can get both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics both at once with just one level. If you want, you can also pick up Mountain Hammer with a feat or one more level of Warblade. After that, continue on with Frenzied Berzerker. Consider Bear Warrior (one level) and Hulking Hurler (three levels).

Assuming you are human you can't get into hulking hurler with the build you just mentioned. Bear warrior 1 will net you black bear form, but black bears are medium, you would need need bear warrior 5 to get brown bear form (and thus large). And since you would only qualify for hulking hurler while in brown bear form (and thus only have the abilities while in browen bear form), you couldn't use any of them without gloves of man or some other exotic magic item, since you don't have hands with which to throw things. Maybe if you slapped a wilding clasp onto a rock before raging it would work, but that seems both silly and unlikely to work. You could dip a couple levels of psywar to get expansion, and thus have access to your hulking hurler talents, but that seems like a lot of extra build expenditure. Honestly I usually find that bear warrior and frenzied berzerker are two different directions to go, and usually don't synergize well. Hulking hurler is a third route to go, but archers tend to be more effective at ranged combat (though you have better options should the opponent close sooner than anticipated).

My recommendation is

Human barbarian4/fighter2/frenzied berseker2/warblade1/frenzied berseker8/totemist2/warblade1
Flaw:power attack
human:cleave
lvl1:destructive rage
lvl3:improved bullrush
fighter1:leap attack
lvl6:intimidating rage
fighter2:shocktrooper

Starting at 6 you leave only bodies in your wake, starting at 7 your friends start being nicer, at 20 you can actually get the straw into capri sun on the first try, seriously.
_______________________________
Or
Human barbarian4/fighter2/fist of the forest1/bear warrior5/fist of the forest2/frost rager4/totemist2
flaw:power attack (because it's that good, and a prereq for almost everything)
Human:improved unarmed strike (prereq, but has uses in bear form)
Lvl1:improved bullrush (only useful as a prereq)
lvl3:great fortitude(only useful as a prereq)
Fighter1:leap attack (2-3x PA modifier on a very easy jump check)
lvl6: extra rage (you probably are going to want it, but it's negotiable)
Fighter2:shocktrooper (who cares about ac when they're too dead to hit back)
lvl9: multiattack (helps with accuracy, especially when totemist comes online, negotiable)
lvl12: frozen berserker (prereq, but cold immunity when raging ain't bad, fire weakness sucks)
lvl15: blazing berserker(does the opposite of frozen berserker, which means immune to both, negotiable)
Lvl18: cobalt rage (pretty good bonuses while raging, negotiable).

Congratulations: when someone make you angry you become an 8 clawed flaming icebear with glowing blue eyes, enjoy (if your head hasn't exploded from over exposure to pure awesome)

[Socratov]

Wow! that is awesome! So awesome in fact that it leaks awesome like a guy leaks piss when he encounters a waterfall after he has drunk a gallon of beer

[Morph Bark]

Assuming you are human you can't get into hulking hurler with the build you just mentioned.

Right. If you want Hulking Hurler, you need more Bear Warrior, or take three levels of Stoneblessed (goliath) before taking your level in Barbarian.

[Darth Stabber]

Right. If you want Hulking Hurler, you need more Bear Warrior, or take three levels of Stoneblessed (goliath) before taking your level in Barbarian.

That seems like a lot of todo, without a big payout. If you were focused on it that would be fine, but as part of a melee build it seems like a lot of filler when you could be getting better at stabbing people, especially with the artifice you need to take the bear warrior route. If your design goal is rockchucking bears, you might be better off as a druid, but even sticking with barbarian bear warrior, you would do better to avoid frenzied berserker, and finding things that applied to thrown weapons. And even if you did focus on that you'd have to be raging to throw them. Stoneblessed is definitely the better call, and even then you would do better as an actual goliath, halfgiant, or halfogre. Or psywar and giving barbarian a miss.

[Sgtpepper]

Sorry I didn't mention this but I would like to do it without multi classing alot

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry I didn't mention this but I would like to do it without multi classing alot

Can you mention the exact restrictions you are operating under? And what books and sources you have to use? Has this changed any?

[Darth Stabber]

Sorry I didn't mention this but I would like to do it without multi classing alot

Druid. Solid for a 20 levels, the only phb class that bears the distinction (other than bard in core only)

[Oscredwin]

Druid. Solid for a 20 levels, the only phb class that bears the distinction (other than bard in core only)

Come on, Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Sorcerer 20, and Bard 20 are all viable builds. They're not near the optimization ceiling, but they can all pull their own weight in most parties.

[Gwendol]

Sorry I didn't mention this but I would like to do it without multi classing alot

I gave you a build a couple of pages back, use that first, then try one with the FB.

[Darth Stabber]

Come on, Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Sorcerer 20, and Bard 20 are all viable builds. They're not near the optimization ceiling, but they can all pull their own weight in most parties.

Wizard, sorcerer, and cleric are still better off prcing, they have no class abilities of relevance other than spells, and prcs give spells. Druid has three class abilities of relevance, very few prcs progress more than one of these, and none of them progress all at the base class's rate)

[Morph Bark]

Sorry I didn't mention this but I would like to do it without multi classing alot

In that case, a simple Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker X is your friend.

He just isn't necessarily other peoples' friend.

If you wish, you can still go for the ACFs I mentioned, but that is all up to you.

[Dr.Epic]

Human or hlaf-orc barbarian:

You hit things, they die. Couldn't be simpler.

Feats: power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus

[Answerer]

Sorry I didn't mention this but I would like to do it without multi classing alot
As a new player, I am giving you this advice because I think perhaps you may not be aware of it, not because I'm trying to ignore your preferences.

Multiclassing is a very strong point of 3.x. In fact, I'd argue that it, along with a huge amount of available material, is the only strong point of 3.x. And non-spellcasters tend to be very multiclass-friendly. I strongly recommend that you be open to multiclassing.

The other thing I strongly recommend is that you view classes as metagame, out-of-character concepts. A character does not go around saying "I'm a Monk/Paladin," they say "I'm a samurai." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) Classes are little bundles of class features and fluff, that you apply to your character. Mechanics simply add with one another, but fluff should be synergized into your character to make the character an actual person, and not just a build. A Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian is a warrior who channels his fury in combat and is good in the wilderness. Not really that unlike a single-classed Barbarian. And honestly, no one is going to refer to themselves as a barbarian, seeing as it's a derisive term for someone savage and uncivilized.

[Sgtpepper]

This concept you said Answerer makes sense but multi classing 5 classes sounds like a lot of "bookkeeping" if you will. But if I stay with just two, barbarian/FB; "bookkeeping" will be fairly easy and with your idea I would be a warrior that let's anger blind him into destroying..everything.

[Answerer]

This concept you said Answerer makes sense but multi classing 5 classes sounds like a lot of "bookkeeping" if you will.
Eh, not really. Mundane classes do tend to be more "front-loaded" so you'll have more class features, but we're not talking about classes (other than Barbarian's Rage which you'd have anyway) where you have to keep track of resources. You'd have your set bonuses and you'd always use them. Just means an extra index card for notes.


But if I stay with just two, barbarian/FB; "bookkeeping" will be fairly easy and with your idea I would be a warrior that let's anger blind him into destroying..everything.
Not really. Warriors in general are underpowered in 3.x. Spellcasters dominate the game most of the time. You kind of need every edge you can get.

[demigodus]

This concept you said Answerer makes sense but multi classing 5 classes sounds like a lot of "bookkeeping" if you will. But if I stay with just two, barbarian/FB; "bookkeeping" will be fairly easy and with your idea I would be a warrior that let's anger blind him into destroying..everything.

It is a lot of "bookkeeping" to put together. The list of your abilities is still only going to be about as long as that of a level 2 or 3 wizard.

Honestly, if you don't want book keeping, the druid has been recommended. In combat, just control your animal companion (who's abilities will be hitting hard, or grappling). However, if mid-campaign you feel like delving into the more complicated/powerful aspects of 3.5 (spells), you already have spell casting. You don't need to change anything in your build to start learning the system.

And if your animal companion dies front lining, get a new one. Just never mistreat it.

[Answerer]

Wait, did you just recommend the Druid as being light on bookkeeping?

[demigodus]

Wait, did you just recommend the Druid as being light on bookkeeping?

So long as you ignore spells.

Druids can perform competently without spells (at least in a beginner party, where monk is defined as competent). So he can slowly familiarize himself with spells.

Though frankly, I would suggest initially just preparing some form of cure spell in every spell slot. Just to slowly introduce him to the casting system.

[Answerer]

So long as you ignore spells.
You need an entirely different stat sheet for every Wild Shape you take, plus another one for your Animal Companion.

[Darth Stabber]

You need an entirely different stat sheet for every Wild Shape you take, plus another one for your Animal Companion.

I would call that good practice for getting to know the math of the system, maybe not easy. Druids are easy because lackluster spell selection have less consequence than a cleric, wizard, and especially sorcerer. You could do worse than just prepping cures and converting them to summons as needed.

[Socratov]

That's why: Warlock!

Solid at 20 lvls, you don't really need stats (though Cha, Int, dex, con could be nice potentially), you only need to pick invocations (no real bad traps and you can retrain them) and as long as you have fell flight and chilling tentacles (of spiked, forced intrusion of doom, etc...) and vitriolic blast you can contribute nicely (btw, word of changing is nice, it's like Hex in DotA, baleful polymorph of te ziard and other classes, and basically turns someone into a critter of his choice, 2 saves later he's a critter for life). Oh, and bonus, normally it sucks, but when you begin play you can actually benefit pretty well from the defensive abilites and fast healing you get as a warlock. (and you can play face as well)

No bookkeeping (virtually since invocations are at will), easy and fun introduction into spellcasting, lots of different abilitesand great fluff.

[Amphetryon]

You need an entirely different stat sheet for every Wild Shape you take, plus another one for your Animal Companion.
On the plus side, a Druid Player that chooses a particular Wild Shape for combat and another for Scouting or Utility can prep those ahead of time and just update as she levels; I've found the same to be true for the Druid Player who chooses to advance - rather than replace - a single AC throughout the adventuring career. Similarly, most Druid Players in my personal experience have a couple of "favorite" Summons they choose repeatedly, rather than branching out into extreme diversity. It's when the Player tries to explore the majority of the animal kingdom that drowning in source material is most likely to occur.

I'll add the caveat that the above is predicated on the notion that the game isn't actually played for the entirety of Level 1 - 20, but my understanding is that games that go that long are in an extreme minority anyway.

[demigodus]

You need an entirely different stat sheet for every Wild Shape you take, plus another one for your Animal Companion.

Or you use an online character builder.

When you morph into a new shape, you adjust 5 values : curren Str, Dex, Con, Nat. Armor, and size

and bam, you are done.

[Urpriest]

Or you use an online character builder.

When you morph into a new shape, you adjust 5 values : curren Str, Dex, Con, Nat. Armor, and size

and bam, you are done.

You also need to update your attack routines since you're using a totally different set of weapons. Plus Ex abilities. Plus items, since some things won't be wild clasped.

[elvengunner69]

Or you use an online character builder.

When you morph into a new shape, you adjust 5 values : curren Str, Dex, Con, Nat. Armor, and size

and bam, you are done.


You also need to update your attack routines since you're using a totally different set of weapons. Plus Ex abilities. Plus items, since some things won't be wild clasped.

Couldn't you sort of 'wing it' with MM?

[Gavinfoxx]

Couldn't you sort of 'wing it' with MM?

No, not really. Unless you want to ground the game to a halt for a half hour each time you decide you want to be x. Trust me, that's what happens... you need to pre-prepare...

[elvengunner69]

No, not really. Unless you want to ground the game to a halt for a half hour each time you decide you want to be x. Trust me, that's what happens... you need to pre-prepare...

I guess I was thinking more of using d20 srd on a laptop or ipad as it is pretty easy to look up medium animals on there. Though trying to leaf through the MM would be kind of a pain.

[demigodus]

You also need to update your attack routines since you're using a totally different set of weapons. Plus Ex abilities. Plus items, since some things won't be wild clasped.

Depends on what items you have wild clasped. For attack routines and Ex abilities, you can just look at the source as you use it. And adjust for the attack/damage bonus based on what is on your char sheet.

[Gavinfoxx]

I guess I was thinking more of using d20 srd on a laptop or ipad as it is pretty easy to look up medium animals on there. Though trying to leaf through the MM would be kind of a pain.

The thing is, that doesn't help you. That doesn't get you your stats when wild shaped! It is the beginning of the process where you derive what stats you have when wild shaped!