psionic lion's charge, better by RAW than I thought

[Darth Stabber]

Full text Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm)

But the text of interest

Augment
For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

This means by RAW if you spent 1 extra pp, you would get 1 extra damage for each attack., if you spent two you would get 4, if you spent 3 you would get 9. Seriously as written it gives you the augment^2 PER ATTACK. Did i discover some thing awesome or am I just slowpoke on this? Or am I missing some way I which this doesn't let me add 100 damage to all of my attacks at the end of a charge for just 13pp?

[eggs]

Now spot the other two parts of the power's RAW that people get frothy about!

[Darth Stabber]

Now spot the other two parts of the power's RAW that people get frothy about!

The fact that the second paragraph is entirely redundant?

Honestly I looked at it and I have no idea.

[TuggyNE]

This means by RAW if you spent 1 extra pp, you would get 1 extra damage for each attack., if you spent two you would get 4, if you spent 3 you would get 9. Seriously as written it gives you the augment^2 PER ATTACK. Did i discover some thing awesome or am I just slowpoke on this? Or am I missing some way I which this doesn't let me add 100 damage to all of my attacks at the end of a charge for just 13pp?

Arguably, this is countered by two observations: first, circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses only "most" of the time, and second, spell/power stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects): the same effect in differing strengths only applies the strongest.

[eggs]

The fact that the second paragraph is entirely redundant?

Honestly I looked at it and I have no idea.
It has an instantaneous duration and no reference to a duration or a one-charge-only limit, and its full attack isn't as a part of a charge, or at the end of the charge, but "in the same round" as a charge.

Together, the implications of certain readings [which are certainly incorrect, but which don't contradict RAW] mean that a Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 19 that manifested a lion's charge once, fifty years prior, has the ability to make two full round attacks when it charges, and that manifesting another lion's charge in any round means that all the damage rolls in both those full round attacks get a +([PP invested]-3)^2 bonus.

It's a power that really depends on readers to jump to conclusions about what it's supposed to do, without getting too tied up in the RAW.

[DoughGuy]

Could someone explain step by step how the bonus is squared. I've looked it over and honestly the best I could see it saying was you spend 1 pp, get 1 damage, spend a second pp, get 2 more damage, not squaring.

[Darth Stabber]

Arguably, this is countered by two observations: first, circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses only "most" of the time, and second, spell/power stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects): the same effect in differing strengths only applies the strongest.

The first option does make sense as a means to reign it in, it could be lawyered either way.

The second would work except all the bonuses come from same instance of the spell, not multiple castings.

But wow this power is a lot wonkier than I thought it was, and i've used it before. Lately I have favored hustle over it, but now I may have to rethink.

[Darth Stabber]

Could someone explain step by step how the bonus is squared. I've looked it over and honestly the best I could see it saying was you spend 1 pp, get 1 damage, spend a second pp, get 2 more damage, not squaring.

For EACH additional powerpoint spent you get bonus damage EQUAL to the additional points spent. If you spend 2 points you get +2 damage for the first extra point, and +2 for the second extra point, total +4. And with two attacks that's +4 damage to each. It gets huge quick.

[DoughGuy]

Ah I see now. The points are added all at once not one after the other.

[Rubik]

Together, the implications of certain readings [which are certainly incorrect, but which don't contradict RAW] mean that a Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 19 that manifested a lion's charge once, fifty years prior, has the ability to make two full round attacks when it charges, and that manifesting another lion's charge in any round means that all the damage rolls in both those full round attacks get a +([PP invested]-3)^2 bonus.Actually, the way the power is worded means that when you manifest it you get a full attack in addition to the attack in the charge, and the power doesn't specify where you have to take that full attack. If you manifest it you can take a full attack at any point during the round and then you get the regular charge attack at the end of your movement, as normal.

[Answerer]

For EACH additional powerpoint spent you get bonus damage EQUAL to the additional points spent. If you spend 2 points you get +2 damage for the first extra point, and +2 for the second extra point, total +4. And with two attacks that's +4 damage to each. It gets huge quick.
Whoo, a quadratic caster that's actually quadratic.

[Psyren]

Yeah the wording around the bonus is definitely wonky. But the other abuses (the ones eggs mentioned) were at least fixed in the PF version.

And though the wording is clumsy, the intent at least is clear - +1 per point.

[Spuddles]

Yeah the wording around the bonus is definitely wonky. But the other abuses (the ones eggs mentioned) were at least fixed in the PF version.

And though the wording is clumsy, the intent at least is clear - +1 per point.

I feel like it's one of the rare cases where the intent is crystal clear, but the RAW is just awful.

Like drown healing and being below 0 HP- what happens? I know what the RAW does, but I am not sure what should happen. Or monke and twf and unarmed strike proficiency and gauntlets. It's just a huge mess for RAI (unless you read Paizo's forums, then what's his face shows up and spouts off about his intent and everyone facepalms).

[Psyren]

I feel like it's one of those cases where the intent is crystal clear, but the RAW is just awful.

Yep, like Monk's proficiency with unarmed strikes :smalltongue:
Or any of the PrCs that auto-disqualify themselves (Dragon Disciple, Ur-Priest etc.)

[Rijan_Sai]

For EACH additional powerpoint spent you get bonus damage EQUAL to the additional points spent. If you spend 2 points you get +2 damage for the first extra point, and +2 for the second extra point, total +4. And with two attacks that's +4 damage to each. It gets huge quick.

Uhg...that has to be one of the worst misquotes of RAW I've ever seen...:smallannoyed:


Augment: For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

For every additional point you spend, each attack gains a bonus equal to the number of points spent. 1-for-1.

If you have (for example) 5 attacks, (3 from BAB, 2 natural...again just example) and augmented the power for 3 points, each one of those attacks would gain a +3 bonus to damage.
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Sorry if some of that sounded...angry(?) I've been spending some time recently reading topics for ToB, and the various disgusting misapplied RAW there...my ire is more directed that way...:smallsigh: That and it's late here and I should probably be in bed right now...:smalltongue:

[Answerer]

Uhg...that has to be one of the worst misquotes of RAW I've ever seen...:smallannoyed:

For every additional point you spend, each attack gains a bonus equal to the number of points spent. 1-for-1.

If you have (for example) 5 attacks, (3 from BAB, 2 natural...again just example) and augmented the power for 3 points, each one of those attacks would gain a +3 bonus to damage.
Uhh... no. His reading is technically correct.

Every point adds a bonus equal to the number of power points spent. 3 Power Points? Every one of them adds a +3 bonus – for +9 total. Technically, by the rules of English grammar. You could argue something about stacking maybe, but that seems unlikely because if you applied that broadly you'd mess up a lot of power's Augments.

[TuggyNE]

You could argue something about stacking maybe, but that seems unlikely because if you applied that broadly you'd mess up a lot of power's Augments.

Hmm. Instinctively, I'd agree with you, but just in case, can you give me an example or three? First few powers I checked (offensive precognition, attraction, bolt, far hand, ecto protection, energy ray, defensive precognition, even vigor) didn't have that problem. Specifically, they all refer to increasing a single bonus (usually typed), not stacking a bonus with itself.

[Darth Stabber]

When I read it the first time (and subsequent readings for years), I assumed it was just poor templating since it gave circumstance bonuses, but then I remembered that you can stack circumstance bonuses. Honestly I have never augmented it before, my last psionic character (ranger1/egoist6/slayerX) had plenty of bonus damage and he had the power (EK), but upon this revelation he would have been able to deal nearly ubercharger levels of damage (at ML13, +100 damage per attack on a charge) without using any of the unclear interpretations. At level 15 using his +1 collision psychokinetic ghost touch cold iron greatsword (the weapon he had at the time) and 24 str(when buffed) that would be

2d6+1d4+120. Averaging out to 128/hit

That's before factoring in PA, any other buffs, a better weapon, or any number of other things. It's not optimized, but most GMs running low op games would be quite surprized if the party's otherwise low key gish were turning that out on a charge.

[Rijan_Sai]

When I read it the first time (and subsequent readings for years), I assumed it was just poor templating since it gave circumstance bonuses, but then I remembered that you can stack circumstance bonuses. Honestly I have never augmented it before, my last psionic character (ranger1/egoist6/slayerX) had plenty of bonus damage and he had the power (EK), but upon this revelation he would have been able to deal nearly ubercharger levels of damage (at ML13, +100 damage per attack on a charge) without using any of the unclear interpretations. At level 15 using his +1 collision psychokinetic ghost touch cold iron greatsword (the weapon he had at the time) and 24 str(when buffed) that would be

2d6+1d4+120. Averaging out to 128/hit

That's before factoring in PA, any other buffs, a better weapon, or any number of other things. It's not optimized, but most GMs running low op games would be quite surprized if the party's otherwise low key gish were turning that out on a charge.

Okay then, let's look at circumastance bonuses:


Circumstance Modifier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier)

A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

Emphasis added.
I would say that an augmented power certainly quallifies as "essentially the same source," wouldn't you?
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Also, Answerer mentiond "the rules of English grammar," and technically, his reading is a misquote and missing a large part of key information.
Now, I may only speak two languages fluently, English and Bad English, (and probably moreso the second one,) but my reading comprehention is pretty good, and I can read that passage of the power all day long, and i still don't think I could see it the same way as you guys do. Also, based on the exact wording, the math doesn't work...also circumstance bonuses ^

[Answerer]

If X is the number of Power Points, your bonus is as follows:

1st PP: +X
2nd PP: +X
3rd PP: +X
...
Nth PP: +X

i.e. Σi=1XX=X×X=X2

Because it says every point adds a bonus equal to the total number of points.

It should say either that every point adds +1 to each attack, or that whenever you have more points, you gain a bonus equal to the total number of them to each attack.

[Twilightwyrm]

Okay then, let's look at circumastance bonuses:



Emphasis added.
I would say that an augmented power certainly quallifies as "essentially the same source," wouldn't you?
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Also, Answerer mentiond "the rules of English grammar," and technically, his reading is a misquote and missing a large part of key information.
Now, I may only speak two languages fluently, English and Bad English, (and probably moreso the second one,) but my reading comprehension is pretty good, and I can read that passage of the power all day long, and i still don't think I could see it the same way as you guys do. Also, based on the exact wording, the math doesn't work...also circumstance bonuses ^

To be fair, if we are getting highly technical then it may still stack since they don't from from essentially the same source, they come from exactly the same source. By this reading, the bonus from two Psionic Lion's Charges would not stack, but since the damage comes from the same spell, it would.

[Namfuak]

To be fair, if we are getting highly technical then it may still stack since they don't from from essentially the same source, they come from exactly the same source. By this reading, the bonus from two Psionic Lion's Charges would not stack, but since the damage comes from the same spell, it would.

Essentially the same and exactly the same are not mutually exclusive. You're arguing a square isn't a rectangle because it's called a square.

[Psyren]

Stacking rules don't apply to augments. Even though you're choosing how high to pump the bonus up, you're still only manifesting the power once; there's nothing to stack.

Anyway, as I said before - it's pretty obvious what the devs intended here, however poorly they edited it.

To fix it, first start with the PF version, then simply word the augment this way: "For every additional power point you spend, the circumstance bonus to your damage rolls after charging increases by 1." This makes it +1 damage per point spent per successful hit, as intended, and makes it apply to all of your attacks (provided you charge) as it does now.

[Twilightwyrm]

Essentially the same and exactly the same are not mutually exclusive. You're arguing a square isn't a rectangle because it's called a square.

Except that in this case is really makes a difference. When it's a square or a rectangle that fits into the last piece of the puzzle, a square and a rectangle not being mutually exclusive doesn't makes much difference.

[TuggyNE]

Stacking rules don't apply to augments. Even though you're choosing how high to pump the bonus up, you're still only manifesting the power once; there's nothing to stack.

Hmm. I was going to say that the power is putting several effects up, but I don't think that would stand. So I think I'll settle for "a confluence of bad RAW and slightly ambiguous RAW from several directions almost, but not quite, fixes the problem before it starts."


To fix it, first start with the PF version, then simply word the augment this way: "For every additional power point you spend, the circumstance bonus to your damage rolls after charging increases by 1." This makes it +1 damage per point spent per successful hit, as intended, and makes it apply to all of your attacks (provided you charge) as it does now.

Yeah, that brings it into line with most other augmentable powers in a fairly straightforward way.