pounce and full attacks

[limejuicepowder]

I'm thinking of changing full attacks to be standard actions (usable once per round, to prevent insane abuse), but I don't want pounce to become nearly useless either. How does adding an extra attack at high Bab sound?

[White_Drake]

Well pounce would still allow you to charge and full attack rather than move action and full attack, so the ubercharger (who benefits the most from pounce anyway) would still need pounce. ToB characters wouldn't be affected much. I think this would have the biggest impact on secondary combatants such as rogues. Really, it seems like the change would be mostly to remove the need for pounce, and I'm fairly certain that no classes/races with reasonable LA get pounce by default, so it wouldn't be a big deal. How would the extra attack interact with two-weapon fighting or flurry of blows?

[Slipperychicken]

Pounce remains useful in encounters where combatants start a bit far away from each other. Allows a Full Attack from 2x base speed, while Standard Full Attacks only allow it from 1x base speed.

Charging a melee opponent when you have neither Pounce or massive charge damage gives him a free Full Attack (actually giving the target the advantage in a slug-fest since he gets more swings in). With Pounce, you can both act first and get that Full Attack off, giving you the "first strike" edge you ought to receive from Charging.

Charging without your iteratives is even less attractive when you can Move + Full Attack. So Pounce will basically guarantee first-strike (well, first Full Attack) if the fight starts at the proper range.

If you play with Warblades, they will be a little happier probably, with all the refreshing they'll get to do.

[Darius Kane]

Some monsters might potentially become much more dangerous.

[Keld Denar]

Like CR 6 rending trolls at 4th level, a "moderately challenging" encounter. Ouch.

[Spuddles]

Some monsters might potentially become much more dangerous.

Yeah, the giant type and aberration type just got a whole lot more dangerous. And a lot of animals, vermin, and undead.

[Hunter Noventa]

Yeah, the giant type and aberration type just got a whole lot more dangerous. And a lot of animals, vermin, and undead.

Yeah creatures with lots of natural attacks become a lot more dangerous. Perhaps make it so that it has to be with a single weapon? It would hurt TWF (unless they use a double weapon), but it would keep monsters from becoming too crazy.

[Darius Kane]

There are monsters that have high BaB and use one weapon.

[Hirax]

There's lots of stuff that only works on a charge. Shock trooper, leap attack, lances, spirited charge, and other such things come to mind.

[Spuddles]

There are monsters that have high BaB and use one weapon.

Giants and outsiders in particular.

[Andezzar]

Really, it seems like the change would be mostly to remove the need for pounce, and I'm fairly certain that no classes/races with reasonable LA get pounce by default, so it wouldn't be a big deal. You didn't look hard enough. Barbarian 1 with the Lion Spiritual Totem ACF (Complete Champion p. 46) gets Pounce. So anyone who was not lawful at some point can get it.

[Darth Stabber]

You didn't look hard enough. Barbarian 1 with the Lion Spiritual Totem ACF (Complete Champion p. 46) gets Pounce. So anyone who was not lawful at some point can get it.

Psywar get psionic lion's charge as a 2nd level power. And any psionic character can get it via EK.

One of the totemist melds gives pounce (natural weapons only, which isn't big deal fot totemist), and landshark boots gives it with the 4 claws it gives you.

Two weapon pounce gives you one attack with each of your weapons on a charge.

Druids just have to wild shape into something with it (most cats, several dinosaurs, and a bunch of other stuff).

There are ways on top of ways.

[Bloodgruve]

So I am going to assume that you want to make this change to give your melee PC's something a little extra. I would simply create a feat that they could take to allow the PC to make a full attack as a standard action X/Day. Maybe X = level or BAB or something. Then you aren't messing with a core mechanic of the game and the players have to actively seek it out. Or even just give them an extra attack as a standard action X/Day.

Blood~

[limejuicepowder]

Ultimately, the reason for making such a rule is to buff mundanes. As it stands, casters can move and use an ability that often times exceeds the power of a full attack, which mundanes can only use as a full action. This more or less forces melee'ers to get pounce or extra movement actions.

I think that is crap.

Upon further thought, I think pounce is good enough as-is. It still has it's place along side shock trooper, leap attack, valarious weapons, etc.; it just won't be required material for every melee build any more.

[Spuddles]

So I am going to assume that you want to make this change to give your melee PC's something a little extra. I would simply create a feat that they could take to allow the PC to make a full attack as a standard action X/Day. Maybe X = level or BAB or something. Then you aren't messing with a core mechanic of the game and the players have to actively seek it out. Or even just give them an extra attack as a standard action X/Day.

Blood~

Feat tax.

I'd just give T3 and below full attacks as standard actions when they get 6 BAB.

[Ravens_cry]

Some monsters might potentially become much more dangerous.
Quite a few in fact, and it makes kiting almost impossible.

[limejuicepowder]

So I am going to assume that you want to make this change to give your melee PC's something a little extra. I would simply create a feat that they could take to allow the PC to make a full attack as a standard action X/Day. Maybe X = level or BAB or something. Then you aren't messing with a core mechanic of the game and the players have to actively seek it out. Or even just give them an extra attack as a standard action X/Day.

Blood~

That is another good idea, though I think I would still make it part of the core mechanics rather then a feat (I hate making everything a feat...melee have enough feats to take as it is).

However, every character getting the ability to make a full attack as a standard action a number of times per day equal to their Bab is pretty solid. A lot of the strategy of melee is maneuvering for a full attack, and it could be argued that taking that away makes them more boring even though it's a buff. X/day is a good mechanic in this case.

[Darius Kane]

Ultimately, the reason for making such a rule is to buff mundanes. As it stands, casters can move and use an ability that often times exceeds the power of a full attack, which mundanes can only use as a full action. This more or less forces melee'ers to get pounce or extra movement actions.

I think that is crap.
Make spells take longer to cast.

[toapat]

Make spells take longer to cast.

that doesnt really fix the problem. Casters will still be able to quicken spells, where as physical cant quicken their attack rate.

[Darius Kane]

that doesnt really fix the problem.
It does.


Casters will still be able to quicken spells,
Which will cost them.


where as physical cant quicken their attack rate.
Yes they can. It's called "Cleave/Great Cleave", "Pounce", "Travel Devotion", "Shadow Hand teleports" and "getting more attacks".

[Bloodgruve]

I figured a feat would make it less accessible to NPC's with levels of a melee class. Otherwise any orc with fighter levels could turn into a big problem.

But the feat tax is a problem. I've always been a fan of using skills in melee.. maybe a system similar to Knowledge Devotion or Iaijutsu Focus to determine if you can take extra attacks?

There's a number of ways to introduce it.

Blood~

[limejuicepowder]

I figured a feat would make it less accessible to NPC's with levels of a melee class. Otherwise any orc with fighter levels could turn into a big problem.

But the feat tax is a problem. I've always been a fan of using skills in melee.. maybe a system similar to Knowledge Devotion or Iaijutsu Focus to determine if you can take extra attacks?

There's a number of ways to introduce it.

Blood~

A skill tax wouldn't be as bad as a feat tax, it's true. Another house rule is proficiency with armor and weapons costs 2 skill points rather then a feat, so it could fit in to something like that. Still, keying standard action full attacks off of a skill investment would make for a very serious skill tax.

What about this: Every character gets a combat maneuver pool equal to their BaB. Spending a point allows the character to make a standard action full attack, or perform a special combat action without drawing a AoO (trip, bullrush, sunder, disarm, etc). Only 1 point can be spent each round, and the pool replenishes each day.

Edit: only creatures with class levels would gain a combat pool. RHD monsters would stay the same.

Under this system, characters can standard action attack, but not indefinitely, and other situational combat actions can be used to some effect without investing feats. The feats will still be attractive to character specializing in those actions for the +4 bonus and other benefits, like Imp trip's free attack.