League of Legends XLI: Fish Are Friends, Not Food

[Math_Mage]

League of Legends XLI:
Fish Are Friends, Not Food



You can sign up for League of Legends here (http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/en/signup/). It's a free MOBA, based on Defense of the Ancients.

If it sounds like we're speaking a foreign language in here, the glossary of LoL terms (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Legends_terminology) can help you with that.

We maintain lists of players, sorted by server. If you are not on these lists and would like to be, please post in the thread with the following information in bold: Server (if you don't know it, it's likely the region you're in, but it's worth checking anyway), your Forum Name and your Summoner Name
If no reply's been made about adding you after a day or two, first check the lists to see if you've been added, if not, feel free to post again or PM me. Any incorrectly formatted posts will probably be overlooked.

NA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
0tt3r | 0tt3r
9mm | cwcriner
Adumbration | Benefice
aethernox | aethernox
Alemil | Alemil
Alter | AlterForm
Anarion | Anarion55
Anonomuss | OpticalSage
ArcanistSupreme | Arcanist Supreme
Arbitrarity | Arbitrarity
Archangel Yuki | Yocham
assassin89 | nineballcirno
Astrella | Sirroelivan
AtwasAwamps | AtwasAwamps
Aurenthal | Estor
Averis Vol | AverisVol
Baron Corm | Baron Corm
Baxter | Thefettered
BinaryMage | BinaryMage
Blueiji | Blueiji
BobVosh | BobVosh -or- VoshBob
Bookboy | Keledrath
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Bliss Authority | Companion N00b
Caradryan | Ying Quliang
Castleraven | Castleraven
cdstephens | cdstephens
Chess435 | Chess435
Copacetic | Azbu
Creed | Moarzed
CrnvorousMeece | CarnivorousMeece
Croverus | Croverus
Cute_Riolu | Cute Riolu
Dallas-Dakota | MustacheMan
Dante & Vergil | Raphiezar
Darth Mario | Darth Mario
Daverin | Daverin
Dentrag2 | Callinectes
dgnslyr | GANKERLagann
Dichotomy | Kaellin
Dire Ferret | Guvna Kit Kit
Djinn in Tonic | The Djinn
Dogmantra | Dogmantra
douglas | DouglasM
Doxkid | Doxkid
Dragonus45 | Dragonus45
Drager0 | Drager0
Dragor | Supernaturalist
Draken | Draken Frosthand
DrakeRaids | DrakeRaids057
Dralnu | TomerIsHot
dukexx | JacksonHicks
Duos | DapperGuy
efdf | efdf
EifieFlare | EifieFlare
Elagune | Chopstyx
Eldariel | Elealar
EndlessWrath | Andurin
Epicfaillol | Ether Master
Errandir | Ramses III
EternalMelon | EternalMelon
faith | Ferrovax101
FantomFang | FantomFang
Faulty | FaultyClockwork
Fawkes | Count Fawkes
FeverFox | Alcopop
Flarowon | Kruin Avabruc
kFlechair | Master Zealot
Folytopo | Folytopo
Forrestfire | Forrestfire15
Frankelshtein | McFinkelstein
Fredaintdead | Fredthefighter
Gallus | Anechois
Geigan | Geigan
glemis | glemis
Giant Panda | Le Shirrif
gimliggamer | Wizard Warlock
Godskook | Bethor Kookalian
Gourtox | Gourtox
Gruffard | Gruffard
Hanuman | HanumanXoO
Hatevah | Hatevah
Incomp | Incomp
InyutheBeatIs | Believe Inyu
Istari | IstariK
Ivellius | Ivellius
Jamin | CapZich
JKTrickster | ZenTrickster
Joran | Jorana
KaizoMK | KaizoMK
Kara Kuro | RaptorKitty
Kciemir | Ghostface Ki11ah
Kettle | Kettle747
king.com | kingcom
Kinslayer | HaunterReqiuem
kmchii | kmchii
knightMARE|Sir Wiffleston
Kopaka | CelesHurricane
Kotarus | Adrameleck
Kwazey | Kwazey
LegoShrimp | LegoShrimp
LightWraith | TheLightWraith
Lil Shiro | Mizz Mitchell
litewarior | litewarior
Lix Lorn | ElixiaLorn
Lord Generic | Lord Generic
LordShotGun | LordShotGun
LostEnder | LostEnder
Low-Key | TheFuzziestBear
lvl 1 sharnian | StarryEagle
Lyxie | Lyxie
Maeglin_Dubh | Tycho Velius
Makensha | Jarbis
MammonAzrael | MammonAzrael
Manticoran | Manticoran
MasatoHyuga | MasatoHyuga
Master_Rahl22 | Goltoth
master256 | QWERTYSTOP
Math_Mage | Mathmage
Mattarias, King. | Mattarias
Malmagor Andrigal | Madmal
Maxios | Maxios20
McCerberus | MCerberus
McDougal | McDouggal
Meatshield#236 | Meatshield236
Merellis | Merellis
Mike_the_Mystic | Kraemer
Milskidasith | Milskidasith
Mindfreak586 | Mindfreak586
Mirrinus | Parallaxal
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Moklok | KokoBWare
Mr. Mud | Proposal
mrcarter11 | Mrcarter11
mrzomby | mrzomby
Mtg_player_zach | MtgPlayerZach
Mushroom Ninja | Mushroom Ninja
Mutant Bunny | WhollySpart
Nadevoc | Xenik
Nanoblack | IwearSILLYhats
Nargan | Naryuk
Necroticplague | Yamidamian
Neoseanster | Neoseanster
NeoVid | NeoVid
neXianXavia | neXianXavia
NotAEvilToaster | NeonPie
oblivion6 | warcrown10
Octopus Jack | Thalric
PersonMan | Nsev
Pie Guy | Qwazes
pilvento | Kandrass
PhoeKun | PhoeKun
Poison Fish | Baron Von Flib
Postmodernist | Postmodernist
Protecar | Godreig
Protecar | Atk
Psychotic | SquirrelFish
Qaera | Qaera
ragingrage | ragingrage
Raistlin1040 | Sanevale
Rama | Nargus
Raroy | setokaibasmt
RationalGoblin | AtillathePun
Raveypoos | Rhaviewoos
recklessabaddon | recklessabaddon
revolver kobold | A Magic Kobold
Reynard | Duke Reynington
Saveducks | ElGrandisimo
Serpentine | Lady Serpentine
Shades of Gray | PierreAbelard
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker65
Shadowleaf | Shadowdancing
Shadow Lord | ShadowLordgiantitp
Shadowy | DJPON3Vinyl
ShortOne | LittlePoppy
SidCoolios | Irazel
Silverraptor | Silverraptor
Sircarp | Sircarp
SirSigfried | LibertarianSDR
Slash_712 | Catfud
sofawall | sofawall
sonofzeal | sonofzeal
St. Viers | St.Viers
Starfols | Starfols
SuperPanda | Lokilar
SweetRein | Riot Reinboom
TalonDemonKing | TalonDemonKing
TechnOkami | Techn0kami
Temotei | Temotei221
Terazul | Allegretto
term1nally s1ck | silverdevilboy
tesla_pasta | generictownsman
Thanatos 51-50 | Thanatos Erebus
The_Fiery_Tower | TheFieryTower
TheGlowingRogue | I Glow In Dark
Themage | SirPelletheGreat
Thethan | Thethan
The Rabbler | Paco H Jones
The Shadowmind | The Shadowmind
The Valiant Turtle | Valiant Turtle
Thrantar | Thrantar
Thrawn183 | Thrawnyboy
throtecutter | throtecutter
toasty | toastymow
Tono | Tono Chou
Treayn | Treayn
tribble | Smallbluedot
Tychris1 | Tychris1
u-gotNOgame | UGNG
u-gotNOgame | Sirius Amory
userpay | userpay
Vauron | Vauron
Volatar | The Volatar
wandiya | wandiya
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Winthur | Seyruun
woodzyowl | Woodzyowl
Zabel_Zarock | Jon Talbain
Zeful | Zeful
ZeltArruin | ZeltArruin
Zemro | Shivic
ZeroNumerous | ZeroNumerous
Zeteni | Zeteni
Zinc | El Jaun Zinco
zolga | TheZolga[/table]

EU Server--West
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Acromos | Crannoch
Adumbration | Adumbration
Anonomuss | Anonomuss
Azimov | Sidhe de Athame
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Cheers | Sam vds
Cyborg Mage | Cyborg Mage98
Eldariel | Elealar
Even Human | SlyGuyMcFly
Gauntlet | Isva
HalfDragonCube | giantmudkip
Krazzman | Viskerin
Maxymiuk | Maxymiuk
Mc. Lovin | B1GB1RDB4G3L
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Morph Bark | Morpheus Bob
Nargan | Naryuk
PersonMan | Scarge
Reb46 | Reb46
Reynard | Duke Reyn
Runhidesurvive | Jmack10
Saph | StarSaph
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker64
Talesin | Fridgecake
term1nally s1ck | Silverdevilboy
That'd_be_me | AntiLocke
TheGeckoKing | Alpharis Omega
Volatar | VolatarUK
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Ziren | Zirenoid
zolga | MasterZolga[/table]

EU Server--Nordic & East
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Dada | Scrattlebeard
Posca | LDRC
Rockbird | Rockbird[/table]

EU Server--Unspecified
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Abakus | Terpfen
Alemil | Alemil
Ayra | Ayramatao
Darwin | DarwinBeGood
Endoperez | Endoperez
Heliomance | Sidhe de Grian
Kurrel | GrinningOni
littlebottom | Littlebottom
lord_khaine | Lord_khaine
Narazil | Narazil
Narkis | Narkis
Penthar | Malderon
Raviepoos | Skittles Unicorn
Shadowleaf | AncientPharma
Socratov | Mbutu
Voidhawk | Sidhe ne Awk
Zefir | Einerwie
Zombywoof | Zombywoof[/table]

SEA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
abadguy | Smite Thy Enemy[/table]

MUMBLE
Download here! (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/)
Our main means of communication is a mumble server, playing host to a variety of games, including LoL. We're quite a tight knit community, get to know us! Hanging about is a good way to find a game, and if you don't fancy playing something there's always a good chance of a friendly chat. Contact Djinn_in_Tonic via PM if you have a question or want to donate money to keep the server running.
Address: fish.mumbleboxes.com
Port: 36003

Admins: Djinn_in_Tonic (Djinn); Darth Mario; ShortOne (LittlePoppy, Raven); Dogmantra; Nano (Nanoceraptor).

STREAMS
Some of us run streams. You can watch them here.
Legoshrimp (http://www.twitch.tv/legoshrimp)
sofawall (http://www.own3d.tv/sofawall/live/83936)
Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
Lyxie (http://www.own3d.tv/lyxie)

GUIDES
Sometimes people write guides and post them in this thread. Other times pro players write guides that people then post in this thread. They often end up here.
General
A General Guide to Support (http://tpesports.net/index.php?site=articles&action=show&articlesID=32), by Math Mage
Guide to General Common Jungler Set-Ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575), by Mtg_player_zach
Small Guide to Jungle Counterpicking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379254&postcount=98), by Winthur
General Guide to AD Carries (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9234)
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Turning Skill Into Elo: Solo Queue Mindset And Methodology (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1220673) by MathMage
How to be a Good Team Leader (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1374492) by Darth Mario

Specific Champions:
Be warned. These guides are, by and large, outdated. Some (if not much) of the information referenced in these guides has been made obsolete as a result of League's natural patch cycle. If you're looking for information on a champion, you'll have better luck at SoloMid.net (http://solomid.net/guides.php?champ=&sort=2&display=4&x=98&y=9) or LolPro.com (http://LoLPro.com). Alternatively, ask the thread!
Riven 101 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12579737&postcount=204), by Arbitrarity
Highly Artistic Blitzcrank guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12380155&postcount=115), by Dogmantra
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra
Anivia Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11514141&postcount=845) by Eldariel
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11938481&postcount=1029) by MathMage
CLASSY VIDEOS FOR CLASSY PEOPLE*
Watching these videos makes you a classier person. Fact.
Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)
Combinasion BOOM! League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzsXR4sM_Y)
All in the Cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9d3342IXSs)
No One Ganks Like Garen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4uiTQsRJg)
Rammus Taunts Everyone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8Q4PM4PXM)

COMICS AND PICS
It's like your eyes are getting a massage.
LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF
TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
Proof we're not all experiencing collective haullucinations.

League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'till Morello Gets Gold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261213)
League of Legends XXXIX: Harrowing in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14079780#post14079780)
League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13921041)
League of Legends XXXVII: Thread Name Delayed for Further Testing on PBE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253343)
League of Legends XXXVI: Thread Now Invisible When You're Not Looking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250948)
League of Legends XXXV: Jayce, the Defender of Soon™ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248760)
League of Legends XXXIV: No Exceptions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246004)
League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13142848#post13142848)
League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237600)
League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF And Janna! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234631)
League of Legends XXX: Must be Summoner Level 18 to View (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231927)
League of Legends XXIX: Are Nerfs Vayne In This Grave Situation? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229460)
League of Legends XXVIII: Ahri-Vederci, Dodge. Hello, Viktory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12466887)
League of Legends XXVII: Your Sister's Hotter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225730)
League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223894)
League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221849)
League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219436)
League of Legends XXIII: gunbladeface.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217744)
League of Legends XXII: Teamwork OP, Nerf Nao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215725)
League of Legends XXI: For The Love Of God Amumu, Stop Crying! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213794)
League of Legends XX: Riot's in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211977)
League of Legends XIX: 15 million players, and nary a Morgana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210332)
League of Legends: XVIII: ┻━┻ ︵ （╯°□°）╯ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207908)
League of Legends XVII: Gondor Has No Tank, Gondor Needs No Tank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205488)
League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203298)
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10646164#post10646164)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)

[McDouggal]

*subs* And is it possible to play a role too much?

[Silverraptor]

I really want to try out Nami. I'll probably mainly play her support, but I do want to try mid sometime.

[TFT]

*subs* And is it possible to play a role too much?

Depends if you want to solo queue or not. If you are just playing with friends it isn't a problem. It is really nice to be able to play multiple roles in solo q though.

That being said, it is nice to play other roles and champions at least once to understand how they work. Even if you want to just play one role, you need a working understanding of how other roles/champs work. For example, I never knew about darius' range differences in damage until I played him, and that has actually helped me once or twice.(Seriously. Walked forward when he was about to q, survived the engagement with 20 health.)

[Thanatos 51-50]

Don't mind me, just postin' for my checkmark...

I really should queue up with my friends to practise at not Bottom AD Carry-paling-around-with-a-Tank. Bot matches just don't do it for me.

Of course, last time I did that, I tried jungling. And apparently, nobody got the memo that I was a jungle champ running Jungle Masteries and Jungle Summoner Spells.
Worst time to learn how to play Nunu as a solomid champion.

We lost that game. I blame me.

[Mtg_player_zach]

I think everyone should be able to play every role at least somewhat. Like I main jungle (and within jungle I can play a ganking jungle, farming jungle, carry jungle, initiation jungle, control jungle, etc.). But, I can play botlane (AD or support) comfortably if I need to. But even still, I have 2-3 champions that I can play for top or mid if I end up stuck with it.

Tl;dr: Sure main a thing, but have at least 2-3 champions for every other role.

[Nadevoc]

This is based on only one game of experience, but Yorick doesn't seem to have the falling-off problem that much any more. Muramana is naturally sweet on him (seeing as he was (one of?) the only champ(s?) that got Manamune before), and the frozen fist is great, too. After that I picked up Ohmwrecker, both because I wanted to try it and because I wanted to switch into tankiness. I guess I really shoulda picked up some CDR instead.

[Forrestfire]

Oh man, I hadn't even thought of how good Iceborn Gauntlet would be on Yorick.

Frozen Heart + Iceborn + Masteries gives full CDR, as well.

[TechnOkami]

Question: Does Renekton want a Black Cleaver?

Hell, what else would be good to even slap on him nowadays?

[McDouggal]

In the realm of "stupid reasons to leave a game:"

Riven left after her first death because "Pantheon counters Riven."

We dragged it out 5v4 for 47 minutes.

If she had stayed, we probably would've won.

[Ashen Lilies]

It's been discussed that Black Cleaver is really, really good right now. It's not just MF.

I'll keep it in mind next time I get a chance to play MF.

I should really probably save up some IP to buy an AD carry who isn't Ashe or Sivir. Given that it's a role I play a lot and am probably the best at. That, or Support. I'm just in Bottom lane a lot, actually.

[Forrestfire]

I have a question. Do Yorick ghouls apply Black Cleaver? They're doing physical damage to an enemy champion...

[nootnoot]

I like the S3 changes in theory, but in practice...

[PersonMan]

I'll keep it in mind next time I get a chance to play MF.

I should really probably save up some IP to buy an AP carry who isn't Ashe or Sivir. Given that it's a role I play a lot and am probably the best at. That, or Support. I'm just in Bottom lane a lot, actually.

AP Ashe and Sivir, OP Ashe and Sivir.

(Yes, I know it's a typo, but I couldn't resist.)

[Math_Mage]

I have a question. Do Yorick ghouls apply Black Cleaver? They're doing physical damage to an enemy champion...

Yes, Yorick's ghouls apply the Cleaver debuff when they autoattack an enemy champion. Just tested this in customs.

[Ashen Lilies]

AP Ashe and Sivir, OP Ashe and Sivir.

(Yes, I know it's a typo, but I couldn't resist.)

Shush, you! You saw nothing! >.>

Would any of those be actually useful? I know Ashe's ult scales with AP, but I don't play Sivir enough to know how she really works.

[Forrestfire]

Yes, Yorick's ghouls apply the Cleaver debuff when they autoattack an enemy champion. Just tested this in customs.

That... seems really good. Not sure how good it would be in practice, but I will definitely have to try that.

[PersonMan]

Shush, you! You saw nothing! >.>

Would any of those be actually useful? I know Ashe's ult scales with AP, but I don't play Sivir enough to know how she really works.

Sivir's Q has an AP ratio. It's something like 0.75, I think.

To be honest, some of the s3 changes have made AP [insert non-AP champ here] significantly better, in part via the Spellblade mastery. Spellblade + Malady = 0.15 AP ratio on each autoattack, so a build like Lichbane/Malady/DFG (especially with the increase in magic damage) can actually be fairly useful even if you only have one or two AP ratios.

[JKTrickster]

How do you guys find Zed? He's been free this week and I've been running into him a lot.

For some reason the people I talk to vary between the extremes. They either think "Wow why is he so weak?" or "Wow why is he so strong?"

When I play him, I find that he can almost only go Mid Lane (kind of like Talon basically). The fact that building multiple BCs is kind of nice too.

But the problem with that is of course a lack of magic damage. How bad do you think is that for team comp? Especially when you SoloQ and the top lane chooses a bruiser of some kind?

[Adumbration]

How do you guys find Zed? He's been free this week and I've been running into him a lot.

For some reason the people I talk to vary between the extremes. They either think "Wow why is he so weak?" or "Wow why is he so strong?"

When I play him, I find that he can almost only go Mid Lane (kind of like Talon basically). The fact that building multiple BCs is kind of nice too.

But the problem with that is of course a lack of magic damage. How bad do you think is that for team comp? Especially when you SoloQ and the top lane chooses a bruiser of some kind?

He can go top lane also in my experience. It just requires some finesse not to get killed by bruisers before 6 and maintaining a good cs score. Mind you, for some reason people tend to pick stuff like Gangplank and Akali against you, which I consider weird. Wouldn't lane against Yorick though.

Basically if you have ult, you can either drive your lane opponent away from the lane or kill him. Apart from that, you have decent harass and you're fairly safe to lane with, what with the shadowshift. Last hitting is easy, as well as pushing - tossing your shadow into the caster minions and using E twice on the whole wave is very fast.

In teamfights your job is pretty much to sacrifice yourself to kill the AD or the AP. You can do this fairly easily with your ult, and it's very hard for anyone to stop, but once you've done it resign yourself to getting killed by focus fire.

[toasty]

*subs* And is it possible to play a role too much?

I played nothing but Yorick for a month. Many professional players literally played nothing but one hero for the first like... year of them playing LoL (SV didn't play anything but Warwick till Season 1, during beta he just played Warwick).

If you play draft, be proficient in 2-3 roles and know how to play all roles, if you play blind pick, just insta lock and hope your team doesn't rage.

[sonofzeal]

Starting with a Brutalizer as Urgot in Dominion just seems.... I don't know, cheating? Two games in a row I ent bot, missed all my E's, and still managed to crush the enemy bot. Not just "harass", or "outlane", but crush. I could outrange, outdamage, outtrade, outpush, outfarm... I hardly needed to tap them and suddenly half their health was gone. And if I landed my E for once they were almost guaranteed dead. Never have I had such reliable domination.

Rengar? Half his health gone before he could get out of the bush, killed him 1v1 twice by three minutes. Teemo? Dodged all my E's, but couldn't even scratch me and just got zoned hardcore with his health melting any time I had a clear shot. Annie? Dodged E's like a champ too, but had to burn a flash after the second trade, and still got killed by homing AA projectiles.

It seems almost unfair..... :smalleek:

[toasty]

Serious question: When you said "I'm first pick I'm mid" and the entire team trolls you what do you do? 90% of the time people don't give a **** because you're first pick, first pick plays what first pick wants. But recently (IE 1200 elo) people apparently would rather lose a game than play support.

This is to the day where TF reconnects after minions spawn and builds Bloodthirster (not even Sword of the Divine, just straight BT) and Darius goes bot with TP/Clarity.

And then to the game where I almost got trolled because I'm first pick ryze "who will get countered."

edit: Might have to give up on even trying Xin mid again. 2nd time I ask for a AP top 2nd time people told me to **** off nad play real heroes.


That... seems really good. Not sure how good it would be in practice, but I will definitely have to try that.

Its good. Brutalizer is actually really awesome on Yorick, except it isn't phage so I never bought it. But Black Cleaver after Tear (because Muramuna guys) sounds like free kills. I really should play Yorick again.

[Eldariel]

Starting with a Brutalizer as Urgot in Dominion just seems.... I don't know, cheating? Two games in a row I ent bot, missed all my E's, and still managed to crush the enemy bot. Not just "harass", or "outlane", but crush. I could outrange, outdamage, outtrade, outpush, outfarm... I hardly needed to tap them and suddenly half their health was gone. And if I landed my E for once they were almost guaranteed dead. Never have I had such reliable domination.

Rengar? Half his health gone before he could get out of the bush, killed him 1v1 twice by three minutes. Teemo? Dodged all my E's, but couldn't even scratch me and just got zoned hardcore with his health melting any time I had a clear shot. Annie? Dodged E's like a champ too, but had to burn a flash after the second trade, and still got killed by homing AA projectiles.

It seems almost unfair..... :smalleek:

Brutalizer start is actually worse now than it was before since it used to have more ArPen before the patch (aside from the speed differential). It's mostly just Urgot being a ridiculously good bot, which is why you can afford Manamune too (seriously, Muramana/Cleaver/LW Urgot in bottom is lulz damagewise).

Might also be your enemies weren't using full Armor Seals; without those a Brutalizer start = autokills.

[LordShotGun]

With the base movespeed buff and the nerfing of boots, alot of item dependent champions have a much easier early laning phase.

For example, vlad wants a hextech revolver for his first back. If he gets pushed out of lane or ganked, this could be delayed for several minutes. However, if he starts with an amp tome and 1 pot, then even if he only gets a few waves he can still get a revolver on his first back and STILL not have to worry much about boots.

Another example is Galio. Galio NEEDS to farm with his spells, there is simply no other way to farm mid lane versus ranged and you will lose top lane versus most melee bruisers. Now he can start either farie charm and flask, or null magic mantle and 1 pot and do much better then boots 3 pots.

Heck, I was jungling olaf and started the normal machete + 5 pots and forgot to buy boots until nearly 20 minutes into the game. Between movement quints and masteries, I think I had something like ~360 MS which is plenty enough to gank and clear jungle.

[toasty]

I disagree with your analysis. Vlad cna get a dorans and sustain. He can get HP regen runes and sustain. Galio can just deal with being shat on for a little because once he gets blue he wins his lane vs most matchups. Besides, they made chalice cheaper.

The thing is, while they did nerf boots, they're still good. The movespeed advantage you get is HUGE.

[sonofzeal]

Brutalizer start is actually worse now than it was before since it used to have more ArPen before the patch (aside from the speed differential). It's mostly just Urgot being a ridiculously good bot, which is why you can afford Manamune too (seriously, Muramana/Cleaver/LW Urgot in bottom is lulz damagewise).

Might also be your enemies weren't using full Armor Seals; without those a Brutalizer start = autokills.
Well, Brutalizer gives a little less ArPen... but Urgot's got a built-in %ArPen skill, so that balances out admirably. If he hits his E, I don't think Armor Seals are going to help much. It isn't quite "true damage" range, but for fresh out of the gate it's pretty devastating. And you're looking at decent AD and some CDR.

Doing the math.... with offence masteries, you're looking at a 20% armor reduction followed by 21 ArPen. The pre-armor damage is about 148 from the E, and 115 for each Q that hits with or without lock-on.

If Rengar's got Armor Seals at my level, he's at 37.5 armor. If the E hits, he's effectively down to 9. Thus, an E-Q-Q combo does 348 damage, or a little over half of Rengar's health. And that's without getting any AA's in there, which you probably will. And you can do all that from well outside his leap range, while he's in a bush, with no vision on him.

Ouch. :smalleek:

Is there any champ who doesn't get crushed by Brut-start Urgot?

[toasty]

Is there any champ who doesn't get crushed by Brut-start Urgot?

Malphite with all armor runes start? I dunno, I still have a page called "lol dyrus" which is all armor+movespeed quints that I run top lane sometimes. I think its pretty good. Combine it with a dorans and tabi for 100 armor at 10 minutes. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Well, Brutalizer gives a little less ArPen... but Urgot's got a built-in %ArPen skill, so that balances out admirably. If he hits his E, I don't think Armor Seals are going to help much. It isn't quite "true damage" range, but for fresh out of the gate it's pretty devastating. And you're looking at decent AD and some CDR.

Doing the math.... with offence masteries, you're looking at a 20% armor reduction followed by 21 ArPen. The pre-armor damage is about 148 from the E, and 115 for each Q that hits with or without lock-on.

If Rengar's got Armor Seals at my level, he's at 37.5 armor. If the E hits, he's effectively down to 9. Thus, an E-Q-Q combo does 348 damage, or a little over half of Rengar's health. And that's without getting any AA's in there, which you probably will. And you can do all that from well outside his leap range, while he's in a bush, with no vision on him.

Ouch. :smalleek:

Is there any champ who doesn't get crushed by Brut-start Urgot?

Well, his E is Armor Shred actually so it worked the same prepatch, just with greater values (only the Mastery is now more valuable to him but has a lower value to compensate). But yeah, Urgot is brutal. Yorick can survive him. Diana can lane against him and avoid him. Remember, early on everyone is squishy and dies fast. Darius has a chance if he uses brush and manages to dodge an E.

It was actually possible to have like 50 points of flat shred prepatch previously so you were dealing true damage to everybody who doesn't build armor (and even to people with Cloth Armor) but yeah.

[LordShotGun]

I disagree with your analysis. Vlad cna get a dorans and sustain. He can get HP regen runes and sustain. Galio can just deal with being shat on for a little because once he gets blue he wins his lane vs most matchups. Besides, they made chalice cheaper.

The thing is, while they did nerf boots, they're still good. The movespeed advantage you get is HUGE.

Really? I haven't noticed quite so large an advantage as they used to be (obviously since they've been nerfed :smallbiggrin:). Anecdotal evidence ahead, but in top lane vald usually has a hard time versus other ranged characters and people with a gap closer. Same with Galio (toplane, not mid). With an early revolver/chalice (like first back early) you can eliminate the advantage those enemies have over you by farming close to tower.

Recently I took vlad top lane with amp tome and pot versus a teemo with boots 3. Perhaps he was just a bad player but every time we engaged I would lose HP wise but I would eventually regain my losses with my early revolver. Particularly when I hit level 9 and had rank 5 Q for the low CD. I was healing a good chunk of health with Q (on minions of course) every few seconds while teemo could not, (especially with the doran's life steal nerf). I eventually evened out our health differences and went in for the kill.

Anyway, yeah boots 3 are still good, but they are not the be all end all of builds anymore.

[toasty]

Really? I haven't noticed quite so large an advantage as they used to be (obviously since they've been nerfed :smallbiggrin:). Anecdotal evidence ahead, but in top lane vald usually has a hard time versus other ranged characters and people with a gap closer. Same with Galio (toplane, not mid). With an early revolver/chalice (like first back early) you can eliminate the advantage those enemies have over you by farming close to tower.

The thing is they can just poke you anyways because they have a movespeed bonus. Even if you take a bunch of pots and stuff you'll just get poked, and even end up behind.

Vlad with Tome vs Teemo with 3 pots boots SHOULD lose his lane because he has a movespeed AND EHP disadvantage. Remember: Pots are 150 HP, thats 450 ADDITIONAL HP. A single Amp tome will not provide the amount of Regen 3 pots can over a period of 30 seconds. Teemo can just poke you down. Every time you CS, he can auto you 2-3 times, with E procs, that's gonna really hurt. You'll die before you can even back. The only thing you can do is take Heal and hope to bait the teemo into a dive where you can combo with your W and heal.

Galio actually might do alright without boots, because Chalice just so good on him, but if you are top and you don't have boots and you farm with spells you push the lane, get ganked and die. GG. Obviously you have similar problems regardless, because there is that awkward spot where you don't have mana to farm and need mana to farm.

Vlad though... Vlad against a bad matchup needs boots. Vlad versus an Easy matchup (which... almost never happens. You have to be bad to lose to vlad early) probably needs boots.

Besides, you can get a Dorans Shield vs. Bruisers.





Recently I took vlad top lane with amp tome and pot versus a teemo with boots 3. Perhaps he was just a bad player but every time we engaged I would lose HP wise but I would eventually regain my losses with my early revolver. Particularly when I hit level 9 and had rank 5 Q for the low CD. I was healing a good chunk of health with Q (on minions of course) every few seconds while teemo could not, (especially with the doran's life steal nerf). I eventually evened out our health differences and went in for the kill.


Anyway, yeah boots 3 are still good, but they are not the be all end all of builds anymore.

[Qwertystop]

Who is this Vi champ people are talking about?

Also, am I doing Sivir right?

13/0/17. In Offense, it's the rectangle from Summoner's Wrath to Weapon Expertise. In Utility, it's Summoner's Insight, Improved Recall, the line from Wanderer to Awareness, 3 points in Greed, and Pickpocket. My logic being that items and skills do more for me than the boosts from the Offense tree.

Items are Boots+3, Vamp Scepter, Berserker's Greaves, Bloodthirster, Glacial Shroud/Quicksilver Sash (in either order), Iceborn Gauntlet, Mercurial Scimitar. Then the game usually ends.

[Nadevoc]

Yes, Yorick's ghouls apply the Cleaver debuff when they autoattack an enemy champion. Just tested this in customs.

Hrm... While this is definitely good, I still think I want to start Manamune/Frozen Gauntlet, and then build tanky after that. Though building tanky doesn't accomplish nearly as much right now, given the rampant penetration going on, so I guess perhaps I should try it.


How do you guys find Zed? He's been free this week and I've been running into him a lot.

For some reason the people I talk to vary between the extremes. They either think "Wow why is he so weak?" or "Wow why is he so strong?"

When I play him, I find that he can almost only go Mid Lane (kind of like Talon basically). The fact that building multiple BCs is kind of nice too.

But the problem with that is of course a lack of magic damage. How bad do you think is that for team comp? Especially when you SoloQ and the top lane chooses a bruiser of some kind?

Zed seemed pretty 'eh' to me, but the last one I ran into (the only one post patch) had some really strong burst. Being pure physical damage isn't really a big issue, especially given the ArPen changes; actually right now, there are teams being run with very little magic damage that are seeing pretty good success. In general, though, I don't like running an AD mid in solo queue because top and jungle should compensate for it, and that's not something you can really count on in solo queue. I would ask in champ select whether it was okay, personally.

[Temotei]

Sivir's Q has an AP ratio. It's something like 0.75, I think.

To be honest, some of the s3 changes have made AP [insert non-AP champ here] significantly better, in part via the Spellblade mastery. Spellblade + Malady = 0.15 AP ratio on each autoattack, so a build like Lichbane/Malady/DFG (especially with the increase in magic damage) can actually be fairly useful even if you only have one or two AP ratios.

Sivir's Q has a 1.98 (maximum) bonus AD ratio and a 0.9 (maximum) AP ratio.

[TechnOkami]

Who is this Vi champ people are talking about?

She's a champion whose just been released to the PBE. Basically she's a sassy lady with power fists.

[NineThePuma]

She's really beast. Feels freaking epic.

[Godskook]

So...Spirit-Golem+Boots of Swiftness seems to be the go-to core on Udyr, plus some obvious MR plus more HP(I've been rushing Aegis for that). Combined with Furor and Red, he's harder to kite and way harder to outrun than he was in S2. Now, if only I can get used to S3 in general being too squishy to actually tank stuff and start ducking in and out of fights more often. I really like what Hydra does for Udyr, but I don't always get the durability to afford purchasing it. I also really like how Udyr can start Doran's Blade, and thus be able to bully most machete-start junglers if he catches them out of position.

Also, is there anybody on whom Alacrity isn't a trap? Furor seems to be stronger in most cases, especially when you can minion-proc the buff, Distortion seems obvious on Flash/Teleport top-laners, Initiators want Captain, and I can understand Homeguard on some comps or a support or w/e. But Alacrity? I just don't see it having a place, with as small as the buff is.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I should know this by now, and I probably used to know it, but...

What, exactly, is CS?

[tyckspoon]

I should know this by now, and I probably used to know it, but...

What, exactly, is CS?

Minion/monster kills. The abbreviation descends from 'creep score', which was the DoTA name for it, because in Warcraft 3 all the neutral creatures on the map were filed under the generic category of 'creeps'.

[TechnOkami]

Minion/monster kills. The abbreviation descends from 'creep score', which was the DoTA name for it, because in Warcraft 3 all the neutral creatures on the map were filed under the generic category of 'creeps'.

What he said.

[toasty]

Honest question: How do you carry? I am unable to carry. I don't play heroes that carry. That's boring. I like becoming immortal and tnaky, but that generally means farming a lot. Which isn't good if your team is behind. The problem is... they're behind because if, lets say, I roam, and gank, they don't do **** and I die and they die and I lose my tower/my jungle gets stolen.

I'm not joking when I say I've lost like 20 games in the past 3 days, all of them because I do "okay" but my team feeds horribly. Today, before I ganked, the enemy jax had gotten like 3 kills. Then I go top and tell rumble to start the fight and he dies before I can even dps chogath. At that point, I knew the game was over.

Another one: How do I convice people to peel for ADC? I've played ADC like 3 times the past week and each die I die, alone and unaided, unable to peel a triple assassin comp.

On a final note: Why do people ban tanks not Assassins in low elo? Tanks become tanky late game and don't really influence the game much. Jax, Kat and Diana have the ability to penta kill the enemy. But instead, we ban tanks (heroes I'm good at) so that assassins (heroes I don't play) have free reign over the squishes. At high elo the game commonly consists of 4 guys protecting a carry, at low elo it becomes 4 guys randomly charging the carry while he cries. Its like... whoever is the best assassin wins.

I ****ing hate snowball metas.

edit: I've dropped 300 elo in a week. Now, some of that was deserved, some of it was me continuing to play when I'm in a bad mood, but now I'm just downright depressed. I lose a lot of games because my team refuses to listen to me and randomly does random **** that accomplishes nothing. They don't ward and push their lane. THEY DONT WARD AND PUSH THEIR LANE. I'm not joking when all kills (except first blood) could have been avoided if my team either warded or didn't push their lane. That was just the last game, but like 90% of the time my team will split up, push their lanes, and die.

Also: **** jax.

[Joran]

edit: Might have to give up on even trying Xin mid again. 2nd time I ask for a AP top 2nd time people told me to **** off nad play real heroes.


That's odd. At the end of Season 2, we had someone call mid, lock in Xin and nobody said anything in chat.

It may have helped that the dude was saying he was on his smurf and he was ordinarily a 1700-1800 player. It also helped that he was telling the truth and roflpwnt the other team.

[toasty]

That's odd. At the end of Season 2, we had someone call mid, lock in Xin and nobody said anything in chat.

It may have helped that the dude was saying he was on his smurf and he was ordinarily a 1700-1800 player. It also helped that he was telling the truth and roflpwnt the other team.

I've noticed at once you fall under 1300 elo players become not only noticeably worse (IE push and don't ward) but they also become proggressively bitchier. Even most 1100 elo players can get to 1400 if they just really work at it. They can't maintain it, but they can peak at 1400. This can create a false idea that they are "good." (I've decided that <1400 is where people think they are good, 1400 is where people know they suck, at 1900 is where people think they're good again. This might be based on having never gotten higher than 1470 elo, though).

Another thing is that news ideas are punished because most players are absolutely terrible. You see things like people questioning picks, picking order and item builds. For instance, if I'm 1st pick in 90% of all games I get **** talked for insta locking a top laner, even though I generally pick safe heroes like Irelia. I got loads and loads of **** for picking Ryze for mid-lane and almost got trolled by last pick as a result (she decided to go jungle diana). We lost that game in champion select IMO because my team created a situation where, regardless of circumstance, I was objectively bad and they were objectively good (I was literally asked to 1v1 someone in champion select. Because that obviously means EVERYTHING about player skill in league). No one would listen to me as I talked about killing their diving tanks and peeling for the carry. Nope, it just became League of Divers and we lost because Hecarim could fear my entire team and kill our carry and Diana was absolutely awful (you know those beautiful 5 people knockups? yeah... I haven't seen one in games I play).

Like, people are bad because they have a bad mindset, not because their mechanics suck. I feel like the more I talk the less people will listen to me because they don't want to deal with the talker. I literally ask for things like "gimme a plan" and I don't get a good answer. I get "defend." No ****. I want to know who is peeling, who is diving, and who our focus points are. I want my team to know that JAX WILL GO IN and you better as hell ****ing stop him. Did it happen? no. Did we win. No.

[ex cathedra]

So...Spirit-Golem+Boots of Swiftness seems to be the go-to core on Udyr, plus some obvious MR plus more HP(I've been rushing Aegis for that). Combined with Furor and Red, he's harder to kite and way harder to outrun than he was in S2. Now, if only I can get used to S3 in general being too squishy to actually tank stuff and start ducking in and out of fights more often. I really like what Hydra does for Udyr, but I don't always get the durability to afford purchasing it. I also really like how Udyr can start Doran's Blade, and thus be able to bully most machete-start junglers if he catches them out of position.

I feel like a Shurelya's-less core is a huge mistake on Udyr. The Doran's blade start sounds suspicious, too, especially since you're already building a Machete, but I haven't seen/tested it enough to make a sound judgement.


Also, is there anybody on whom Alacrity isn't a trap? Furor seems to be stronger in most cases, especially when you can minion-proc the buff, Distortion seems obvious on Flash/Teleport top-laners, Initiators want Captain, and I can understand Homeguard on some comps or a support or w/e. But Alacrity? I just don't see it having a place, with as small as the buff is.

Last time I checked, Furor doesn't actually do anything until you've already caught your enemy. And generally, if you pick a champion like Udyr into champions like Zyra and Varus you're going to find it hard to catch the enemy. Alacrity is definitely better early game, I think, and may/may not be worse than Distortion lategame. Udyr doesn't have problems sticking to champions, he has problems reaching them. For initiators, on-demand MS like Alacrity/Shurelya's and Flash CDR are much better than Furor.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Honest question: How do you carry? I am unable to carry. I don't play heroes that carry. That's boring. I like becoming immortal and tnaky, but that generally means farming a lot. Which isn't good if your team is behind. The problem is... they're behind because if, lets say, I roam, and gank, they don't do **** and I die and they die and I lose my tower/my jungle gets stolen.
Usually I play like the Death King of Murder Mountain, originally of I Have A Gun Street.
There's somethig to be said for unbridled aggression


- snip because I would be unhelpful -

On a final note: Why do people ban tanks not Assassins in low elo?-more snippage -

Oh, this one is easy.
Most people like to get their Murder on. Seriously, most people like to be the guy doing the killing. Call them CoD-jockeys or whatever derogatory term you desire, but a lot of people measure their effectiveness in a game by their KDR. Which is... okay, if you're a DPS Champion carry. Tanky playstyles tend towards less kills, so people shy away from them.

However, people ALSO don't like it when they CANNOT murderdeathkill a champion due to that champion's tankiness. The don't like blowing all their spells and then getting roflpwned because their target didn't die.
Hence, the bans of things that have that tendency to not die

[toasty]

However, people ALSO don't like it when they CANNOT murderdeathkill a champion due to that champion's tankiness. The don't like blowing all their spells and then getting roflpwned because their target didn't die.
Hence, the bans of things that have that tendency to not die

BUT if everyone played tanks assassins would be worthless. :smallbiggrin:

[ex cathedra]

Also, am I doing Sivir right?
No.

AD carries are reliant on a combination of AD, attack speed, critical chance, critical damage, and armor pen to actually do damage. Masteries aren't super important, I would probably go like 19/0/11 or something, but items are kind of a big deal. Zerker's Greaves, Bloodthirster, Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge, Last Whisper, and Guardian Angel/Mercurial Scimitar is the standard.

[Thanatos 51-50]

BUT if everyone played tanks assassins would be worthless. :smallbiggrin:

If everybody played an AD Carry, then Supports would be worthless.

[Qwertystop]

Well, having noticed that I had >9000 (not kidding) IP, I decided to impulse-buy Galio.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2223/32104316.png
I called mid, Syndra locked and said she had called it beforehand, I decided to go duo top since I'm not very good in the new jungle and everybody else had locked.

There was little to no raging all game.

And it was GLORIOUS. I love that ult.

[Thrawn183]

And it was GLORIOUS. I love that ult.

Heroes that have obvious initiates and force team fights are really good at lower level. It's amazing what an Ashe/WW/Galio/Amumu ult can do to get your team to actually all go in at once.

[Arbitrarity]

Heroes that have obvious initiates and force team fights are really good at lower level. It's amazing what an Ashe/WW/Galio/Amumu ult can do to get your team to actually all go in at once.

BREAK THEIR RANKS

Hecarim is my favorite champion still. No one starts fights in quite the same style.

[toasty]

If everybody played an AD Carry, then Supports would be worthless.

My point was it seems the counter to low elo meta is tanks, but everyone bans the tanks (BOTH team do it).

Like, Malphite has been permabanned at low elo for 6 months now. He's not even a priority pick at any level of play. People ban him literally because he's tanky and has a decent ult.

[Thrawn183]

Like, Malphite has been permabanned at low elo for 6 months now. He's not even a priority pick at any level of play. People ban him literally because he's tanky and has a decent ult.

An ult that will get his whole team to pile on simultaneously and have a much better chance at a decent team fight.

If your team is busy running around like chickens with their heads cut off, Malphite is deadly.

[Joran]

BREAK THEIR RANKS

Hecarim is my favorite champion still. No one starts fights in quite the same style.

Any tips for Hecarim S3?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Heroes that have obvious initiates and force team fights are really good at lower level. It's amazing what an Ashe/WW/Galio/Amumu ult can do to get your team to actually all go in at once.

I like WW for this too. Doesnt catch whole teams but even the most clueless allies will focus the enemy you jump on.

[Math_Mage]

My point was it seems the counter to low elo meta is tanks, but everyone bans the tanks (BOTH team do it).

You just answered yourself.

Play Ez/Corki/Trist and run away from assassins. Play junglers that can gank at level 2, i.e. most of the good ones. Play snowbally laners--again, Ez/Corki/Trist bot, Jax/Irelia/Vlad/Xin in top, and most mids not named Karthus. Low Elo has too many kills to just focus on CSing, though of course you get more of an advantage from CSing.

Of course, at some level you can just play whatever and win. These are just crutches.

[McDouggal]

Malphite gets perma-banned in my normal ELO because he's basically saying "Screw your low damage poke, meet my passive." He feels like he's impossible to trade with, basically. If I'm laning against one as, say, Mundo or Shen, I have to stop using my Q to last hit almost entirely if I want to get any harass done.

At the very least, the Malphite's I've played against have no clue how to ration their mana.

EDIT: Perma'd at my normal ELO (or very close to it): Shen, Blitz, Ali, Malphite.

Other bans at my normal ELO: Karthus (OhgodIhatethisguy), Katarina, Rengar, Diana... Well, a lot of the picked assasins, really.

Also, has Soraka's E always been free, or is that new?

[Forrestfire]

Soraka's E has always been free.

[toasty]

You just answered yourself.

The counter to assassins is tanks. Pick tanks. Oh wait, we all banned the tanks. You have 3 bans. I mean, okay, I'll ban Blitz because... yeah, and I'll ban shen because no one wants to deal with him. But I'd rather ban diana/kat/eve than ... malphite... or amumu for that matter (amumu is maybe actually worth banning again).

Like everytime I see comps with low cc/hard engage I think "what do I play? Oh wait... nothing."


Play Ez/Corki/Trist and run away from assassins. Play junglers that can gank at level 2, i.e. most of the good ones. Play snowbally laners--again, Ez/Corki/Trist bot, Jax/Irelia/Vlad/Xin in top, and most mids not named Karthus. Low Elo has too many kills to just focus on CSing, though of course you get more of an advantage from CSing.

Of course, at some level you can just play whatever and win. These are just crutches.

I mean... last time I hit 1200 elo I just hard carried with like... whatever. This time that hasn't been happening. I just played a bunch of normals with GITP people (and won all of them :D) so maybe I can get back into the swing of things.

I think my biggest issue is the same I've always had: I replace good positioning skills with the ability to not die. This is why I play a lot of tanks. I've played Carries and always end up zoned and/or dead in teamfights. Its really hard to play carries against 1-3 assassins.

[PersonMan]

At the very least, the Malphite's I've played against have no clue how to ration their mana.

This. It's to the point that I generally judge whether or not a Malphite is good by Philo Stone. They built it? They probably suck.

Now, Philo Stone is nice and all, but in my experience it almost always means they aren't good. The Warmog's types, who play Malphite as an unkillable wall of meat instead of a squishy-smashing fist of stone.


Also, has Soraka's E always been free, or is that new?

Well, in the past it could be said to have a "negative cost" when applied to allies (self mana gain) but it's always been free, yeah.

EDIT: Carry trouble: I have a weird case of "wrong playstyle". When playing a fed Mundo or Malphite I don't just all-in rush fights I could end up winning, but as an ADC I go full bloodthirsty and dive an enemy team for one low-HP squishy.

[Ashen Lilies]

Guess what has two thumbs and just hit level 30?


This guy.

[Arbitrarity]

Any tips for Hecarim S3?

Typically jungle, since his top matchups are iffy.
Arpen reds, Armor yellows, choice blue (prefer scaling MR), choice quints (prefer MS). Invest lots in defense, since you'll need it lategame. I do 1/28/1, Ghost/Smite.

"easy" blue route is best (wolves/blue/wraiths/wolves/red/wraiths), starting W if you get help with damage, Q otherwise. R>Q>W>E. You are VERY vulnerable to counterjungling, since you have terrible dueling. If someone finds you, you probably need to Ghost and bail.

You should be at ok health if you had help on blue, so try a few ganks. Run way behind, lead in with Devastating Charge. You'll usually chunk about a quarter of their health if you get an early Q with the MS boost, and probably force a flash by shoving them forward. If they're way extended, and/or you have red, you can often run them down with Ghost for the kill.
Get Spirit Stone on back, since most of your damage is from Q and you need the mana/health regen. If you had a good gank, took some lane farm, or kept jungling, you can usually get boots and/or Flask, which are nice. From there, keep clearing, run ganks where you need to, maybe throw down some pink wards. Hecarim is more a carry/tank jungle than support, so you want gold.

Ult is for saving your life, diving, catching an enemy, peeling, disrupting foes (Katarina/Fiddlesticks in particular) or starting a fight. Try to lead enemies so the fear knocks them towards your team when catching them, or away if peeling. Try not to go in without your team; Spirit of Dread only makes you tanky if you have teammates doing damage.

You want to rush Iceborn Gauntlet and Spirit Visage, for a nice mix of offense/defense and lots of CDR. Iceborn is excellent for ganking/chasing, makes your mana pool HUGE, the AOE makes your clearing easier, and teamfighting better. Spirit Visage is pretty much pure tankiness, but synergizes great with Spirit of Dread.
Boots are usually Mercs or Swiftness, possibly Tabi. Alacrity, Homeguard, or Captain are solid upgrade choices. If you need to get tankier, you might upgrade to Spirit of the Ancient Golem (if you don't have Mercs), or go for Randuins (generally better choice). If you're surviving fights nicely, you can get Spirit of the Ancient Lizard, since the burn procs on EVERY RAMPAGE, so is basically on everyone around all the time.
I recommend Brutalizer/Cleaver, Locket of the Iron Solari (VERY cost efficient right now), Hexdrinker (cheap MR and effective health), Mercurial Scimitar(you better be RICH), Randuin's (almost a necessity in many games), Zekes, Shurelya's, or Aegis/Bulwark (auras if your team doesn't have them) to round out a build.

You particularly like teammates who provide movespeed boosts or defensive auras, and probably would like someone else to build a Frozen Heart at some point. Substantial AOE damage, especially that can keep up with you, is also nice for keeping you alive. Lulu, Zilean, Orianna, Nami, Nunu, Gangplank, Sivir, and Sona are all nice.

[Eldariel]

I just learned that my normal SR elo is too low for me to reasonably be able to play Nami there. Swell.

[9mm]

My point was it seems the counter to low elo meta is tanks, but everyone bans the tanks (BOTH team do it).

Like, Malphite has been permabanned at low elo for 6 months now. He's not even a priority pick at any level of play. People ban him literally because he's tanky and has a decent ult.

THE cardinal rule of low elo is initiation wins games. The team that can initiate better wins if the lanes go even, so they ban out the initiators that jump on your face and start a snowball kill.

[PersonMan]

I just learned that my normal SR elo is too low for me to reasonably be able to play Nami there. Swell.

What do you mean by that?

[toasty]

What do you mean by that?

The AD carry is so bad that the lane is almost a 3v1, let alone 2v1.

[Mephit]

I read it as ''At low elos, people always ban a new champion''. I could be wrong.

Neither AD carries will be great on average at a low elo, but you can still carry on support.

[LordShotGun]

I almost think that the thread name should have been "Welcome to the league of cleavers!"


Speaking of which, PBE has the black cleaver and brutalizer getting nerfed...which is no surprise to anyone.

[Math_Mage]

The counter to assassins is tanks. Pick tanks. Oh wait, we all banned the tanks.

You're missing a step that explains why people ban tanks.

"The counter to assassins is tanks. WE ALL WANT TO PLAY ASSASSINS. Ban tanks."

:smallwink:

[Eldariel]

The AD carry is so bad that the lane is almost a 3v1, let alone 2v1.

Lengthy:
That and my team is unable to initiate teamfights or even react to me initiating teamfights (seriously, I bubbled both their carries and Tidal Waved their whole team in our base in the open and our Nocturne decides to ult Renekton instead of Corki or Akali; our toplane Taric opted to run and so did our Caitlyn whom I had given my damage buff to).

Or Ward or push out lanes (try pushing with Nami; it's not easy) or react to enemy walking over my wards in our jungle or...really, doing anything basic. I tried so very hard to give them a win but no... And yeah, the Cait was a whole other level of badness. Nevermind the instalock, she flashed after low HP Sona with Heal and gave FB in spite of my best efforts (I got the Corki but died).


She refused to autoattack when I gave her the damage buff, gave Corki/Sona free damage without trading back, refused to use her range to harass, went for Peacemaker in the trade positions instead of autoing and using Peacemaker when enemy is not actively attacking you, always ran away when I stunned the enemies who tried to initiate on her (I lost count of how many double Aqua Prisons I landed without her doing anything besides maybe Peacemakering after running away), refused to avoid trades and let me heal up when low and overall just...I don't know, it was awful (her teamfight positioning also consisted of "stay far enough behind the fight to not be able to attack or get caught by Rammus and run for your life since you didn't build LW in your first 3 items").

Really, I don't think she actually ever did significant damage to anybody; whatever effort I placed in keeping her alive ended up wasted effort as she'd just run away if I stun someones attacking her (and our teamfighting involved the team scattering like a flea pack just to ensure we can't focus targets, protect carries or even apply our defensive auras on everybody).


We got Baron once and the enemy team was also real good at getting caught and roaming around randomly, something we were able to capitalize on few times with a ping frenzy, but ultimately their Corki did things while our Cait didn't so we couldn't compensate especially with Nocturne's inability to attack the right target.

Point being, if I had played anything that deals damage we woulda won that game simply by me catching people off and rightclicking them to death and doing the DPS in teamfights but I wanted to play Support Nami (honestly, I shoulda prolly went AP Nami) since I just got her and wanted to try her out... Guess I should restrict my support play to ranked and when I play premades or tryhard few hundred games of normals to reach some reasonable elo again.

[Ashen Lilies]

So apparently I own the UFO Corki skin? How did that happen? :smallconfused:

[Mephit]

So apparently I own the UFO Corki skin? How did that happen? :smallconfused:

When did you make your account? It was given to all people who made an account way back at the start of the game. I'm assuming that's not the case since you just hit 30, but you never know.
Other than that, Riot support sometimes gives it out when they mess something up badly, to make it up to you.

[Silverraptor]

Guess what has two thumbs and just hit level 30?


This guy.

Congrats.:smallsmile:

Ready for Ranked?:smalltongue:


Lengthy:
That and my team is unable to initiate teamfights or even react to me initiating teamfights (seriously, I bubbled both their carries and Tidal Waved their whole team in our base in the open and our Nocturne decides to ult Renekton instead of Corki or Akali; our toplane Taric opted to run and so did our Caitlyn whom I had given my damage buff to).

Or Ward or push out lanes (try pushing with Nami; it's not easy) or react to enemy walking over my wards in our jungle or...really, doing anything basic. I tried so very hard to give them a win but no... And yeah, the Cait was a whole other level of badness. Nevermind the instalock, she flashed after low HP Sona with Heal and gave FB in spite of my best efforts (I got the Corki but died).


She refused to autoattack when I gave her the damage buff, gave Corki/Sona free damage without trading back, refused to use her range to harass, went for Peacemaker in the trade positions instead of autoing and using Peacemaker when enemy is not actively attacking you, always ran away when I stunned the enemies who tried to initiate on her (I lost count of how many double Aqua Prisons I landed without her doing anything besides maybe Peacemakering after running away), refused to avoid trades and let me heal up when low and overall just...I don't know, it was awful (her teamfight positioning also consisted of "stay far enough behind the fight to not be able to attack or get caught by Rammus and run for your life since you didn't build LW in your first 3 items").

Really, I don't think she actually ever did significant damage to anybody; whatever effort I placed in keeping her alive ended up wasted effort as she'd just run away if I stun someones attacking her (and our teamfighting involved the team scattering like a flea pack just to ensure we can't focus targets, protect carries or even apply our defensive auras on everybody).


We got Baron once and the enemy team was also real good at getting caught and roaming around randomly, something we were able to capitalize on few times with a ping frenzy, but ultimately their Corki did things while our Cait didn't so we couldn't compensate especially with Nocturne's inability to attack the right target.

Point being, if I had played anything that deals damage we woulda won that game simply by me catching people off and rightclicking them to death and doing the DPS in teamfights but I wanted to play Support Nami (honestly, I shoulda prolly went AP Nami) since I just got her and wanted to try her out... Guess I should restrict my support play to ranked and when I play premades or tryhard few hundred games of normals to reach some reasonable elo again.

Well the solution to this Eld is to grind a number of games, stomping everyone with your amazing play.

Hmmm... Does duo que normal games count to Normal ELO? If so, I would love to play multiple games with you. We can trade back and forth between who is the carry and who is the support. You can even tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it.:smallsmile:

[Ashen Lilies]

When did you make your account? It was given to all people who made an account way back at the start of the game. I'm assuming that's not the case since you just hit 30, but you never know.
Other than that, Riot support sometimes gives it out when they mess something up badly, to make it up to you.

Ah, I did indeed. I quit for a long while, which is why I just hit 30, but this is in fact a very old account. That explains things, thanks. :smallsmile:

Now I just need to learn to Corki, so I can make use of this skin...


Congrats.:smallsmile:

Ready for Ranked?:smalltongue:



:eek:

[Silverraptor]

:eek:

Hey, I'm not either.:smalltongue: Perhaps we can practice some draft together and start some duo que for laughs?:smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

Well the solution to this Eld is to grind a number of games, stomping everyone with your amazing play.

Hmmm... Does duo que normal games count to Normal ELO? If so, I would love to play multiple games with you. We can trade back and forth between who is the carry and who is the support. You can even tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it.:smallsmile:

The solution to this is to tryhard playing anything but support but I don't feel terribly inclined to play enough games tryhard in normals to get my elo somewhere reasonable; if I wanna tryhard I already have ranked for it. :smallfrown:

And yeah, duo games count but unfortunately the problem occurs on my EUWest account (where I actually own Nami among others) so while I'd be totally on board with duoing with you and playing duos with anybody I know I don't think it's plausible unless you have an EUW account I'm not aware of.

[Dada]

I just learned that my normal SR elo is too low for me to reasonably be able to play Nami there. Swell.

Time to release the bird?

[toasty]

Lengthy:
That and my team is unable to initiate teamfights or even react to me initiating teamfights (seriously, I bubbled both their carries and Tidal Waved their whole team in our base in the open and our Nocturne decides to ult Renekton instead of Corki or Akali; our toplane Taric opted to run and so did our Caitlyn whom I had given my damage buff to).

Or Ward or push out lanes (try pushing with Nami; it's not easy) or react to enemy walking over my wards in our jungle or...really, doing anything basic. I tried so very hard to give them a win but no... And yeah, the Cait was a whole other level of badness. Nevermind the instalock, she flashed after low HP Sona with Heal and gave FB in spite of my best efforts (I got the Corki but died).


She refused to autoattack when I gave her the damage buff, gave Corki/Sona free damage without trading back, refused to use her range to harass, went for Peacemaker in the trade positions instead of autoing and using Peacemaker when enemy is not actively attacking you, always ran away when I stunned the enemies who tried to initiate on her (I lost count of how many double Aqua Prisons I landed without her doing anything besides maybe Peacemakering after running away), refused to avoid trades and let me heal up when low and overall just...I don't know, it was awful (her teamfight positioning also consisted of "stay far enough behind the fight to not be able to attack or get caught by Rammus and run for your life since you didn't build LW in your first 3 items").

Really, I don't think she actually ever did significant damage to anybody; whatever effort I placed in keeping her alive ended up wasted effort as she'd just run away if I stun someones attacking her (and our teamfighting involved the team scattering like a flea pack just to ensure we can't focus targets, protect carries or even apply our defensive auras on everybody).


We got Baron once and the enemy team was also real good at getting caught and roaming around randomly, something we were able to capitalize on few times with a ping frenzy, but ultimately their Corki did things while our Cait didn't so we couldn't compensate especially with Nocturne's inability to attack the right target.

Point being, if I had played anything that deals damage we woulda won that game simply by me catching people off and rightclicking them to death and doing the DPS in teamfights but I wanted to play Support Nami (honestly, I shoulda prolly went AP Nami) since I just got her and wanted to try her out... Guess I should restrict my support play to ranked and when I play premades or tryhard few hundred games of normals to reach some reasonable elo again.

You could just play Nami in ranked. :smallbiggrin:

But to be honest... I feel you. I had a Nami in ranked today that was just godawfully bad. Like... ulting the air bad. HOW DO YOU MISS THAT ULT.

[Silverraptor]

The solution to this is to tryhard playing anything but support but I don't feel terribly inclined to play enough games tryhard in normals to get my elo somewhere reasonable; if I wanna tryhard I already have ranked for it. :smallfrown:

And yeah, duo games count but unfortunately the problem occurs on my EUWest account (where I actually own Nami among others) so while I'd be totally on board with duoing with you and playing duos with anybody I know I don't think it's plausible unless you have an EUW account I'm not aware of.

Curses. Why you hang out in Europe Eld?:smalltongue:

[toasty]

Curses. Why you hang out in Europe Eld?:smalltongue:
Cookies for people who get my subtle reference
He's an AP mid. All the good APs are in EU.

[Ashen Lilies]

Argh. Corki's fun, but almost every other ADC with an escape mechanism has it bound to E. Corki's is bound to W. Cue Kris pressing W on impulse during a team fight and flying right in to the middle of the enemy team. >.<

[Math_Mage]

I just learned that my normal SR elo is too low for me to reasonably be able to play Nami there. Swell.

On the flip side, my SR normal Elo has gotten high enough that I feel uncomfortable playing without tryharding.

[Eldariel]

Time to release the bird?

If I get to play mid it doesn't really matter what I play. Top I'll do fine in except I have serious trouble predicting ganks after the first one so if I get camped I'll probably do terribly. ADC is fine if the game goes longer than 20 mins without enemy having few asses and jungle is almost as easy as mid but if I'm playing support I need a slightly competent ADC who can do stuff when I do stuff or I'm FUBAR'd.


On the flip side, my SR normal Elo has gotten high enough that I feel uncomfortable playing without tryharding.

I was at that point once (during season 1) but I haven't played a normal SR game in over a year without being in a premade (before today, that is), 99% of the time with less experienced players, occasionally ones with connection issues, (only exception really being Adumbration) and with me doing something funny most of the time; seems I've managed to nuke it something severe.


On the flipside, I finally got to play Nami with a somewhat competent AD (premade) and found out that she is just as much fun as she looks. Especially blasting a teamfight with Tidal Wave just feels warm and fuzzy inside. Tho still getting used to Aqua Prison hitbox and trying to utilize Ebb and Flow efficiently on lane.

[Winthur]

He's an AP mid. All the good APs are in EU.

Link115 :smalltongue:


If I get to play mid it doesn't really matter what I play.

And then he went 5/11 with mid lane Nami. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

And then he went 5/11 with mid lane Nami. :smallwink:

Won that game anyways, and I had like seven billion assists. And I killed Annie 1v1 twice. :smalltongue:

[Joran]

THE cardinal rule of low elo is initiation wins games. The team that can initiate better wins if the lanes go even, so they ban out the initiators that jump on your face and start a snowball kill.

This mirrors my experience of why 1200s or so bans Malphite, Alistar, and Amumu (and probably Morgana). Spacing is pretty bad, so any champion who can initiate and AoE disable is an absolute menace.

P.S. This is also why my team fears Fiddlesticks. We love to clump up.

[LordShotGun]

Has anyone tried out these newer items?

Banner of Command

Twin Shadows

Ravenous Hydra

Ohmwrecker

Mikael's Crucible

Crucible seems like a good item for a Sona or Janna, both who seem to run out of mana quickly and being able to QSS your ADC AND heal them seems really good. It just seems...kinda hard to get too. I mean, it doesn't have good stats to rush in bot lane since MR is kinda low priority over armor/health from the very expensive aegis, which is proof that aura's are still king.

Hydra still seems to have the same problems that tiamat had. It has out of place stats and is gimmicky.

Ohmwrecker seems like a good siege weapon, but again, by the time you have it you should be able to tank towers anyway and the active only stops two tower hits. Singed could use this but since he can tank turrets easily anyway, why bother?

Banner is kinda weird. AP, armor and health regen? Who wants that specific combination? The siege minion is kinda nice but again, who would want to push quite that hard, especially AP characters? Maybe singed? Possibly shen? Warwick? Who wants to split push super hard and can use AP, armor and HP regen? Only shen seems to fit the bill but he has other items that do this better (sunfire for example) and singed has no need of extra help to push hard.

Twin shadows. I have seen this one in game but only once and it was a very brief glimpse. A semi-support item with MR, AP and MS. Again, some weird combo of stats that no champion really wants that badly. Maybe an item for Galio is he gets an early kage's pick but otherwise I can't think of anyone that wants this.

[Forrestfire]

Banner of Command is a very niche item. I like it on supports, but it's not something I'd build every game.

It's best used in the type of game where both teams are poking around baron, or just generally stalling a bit to find an opening. Sending a promoted minion down bot lane while we're doing the Baron dance works wonders for pushing. In one of the games I built it we used to to apply additional pressure during one such moment, and it had eaten two turrets and half an inhib before they were forced to break off and give us baron.

[McDouggal]

Ashe suicides on my Thornmail. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paq5JLQnWkI)

Pretty much full to 0, too.

[EternalMelon]

I named a thread! YaY! The fact that I had no competition shall go unmentioned!

In other news, I've discovered I'm in a cycle of supporting, that usually goes like this: (I'm at step 8)

1. Melon, being the only willingly typecast-ed and competent support in its play group is forced to play support with whoever wants to adc (usually the pubbies).
2. Melon plays lots of support, eventually getting his adc player to leave role of choice.
3. Bot stomps. HARD
4. Melon plays lots of games with her adc player and his second choice for adc, starts to fall off.
5. Main adc player goes to his new super awesome pub-stomp role/character, leaving Melon to play with who-ever and her second choice.
6. Melons support role drops off hard, due to not enough chemistry between bot lane.
7. Melon "Quits supporting forever"
8. Melon tries, and fails, at playing other roles.

TL;DR
I need a new role and a champion to play EVERYONE VOTE!
Ps: I'm very near 6300 and don't have anything to buy (but maybe I'll buy Nami, but I can buy rp for her if I like her on the free week) so just vote away!

[McDouggal]

Which characters (not roles) do you like/are good at playing?

[EternalMelon]

Which characters (not roles) do you like/are good at playing?
I like to play Ryze, Mumu, Skarner, Cho, Diana, Taric, Leona, LeeSin and Morgananana.

Which characters (not roles) do you like/are good at playing?
I am good at playing Taric, Nunu, Leona and Wardy McCarrier.

Added after, when I remembered them.

[Forrestfire]

Try jungle Nunu. He's extremely forgiving, very fun, and ridiculously fun. Iceballs+Liandra's Torment OP :smallbiggrin:


Ashe suicides on my Thornmail. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paq5JLQnWkI)

Pretty much full to 0, too.

That was beautiful.

[EternalMelon]

Try jungle Nunu. He's extremely forgiving, very fun, and ridiculously fun. Iceballs+Liandra's Torment OP :smallbiggrin:
That reminds me, add Nunu to the second list.

That was beautiful.
Oh my, indeed it was.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'll just leave this here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/LoLFlawlessVictory.png

:smallbiggrin:

[McDouggal]

I like to play Ryze, Mumu, Skarner, Diana, Taric, Leona, LeeSin and Morgananana.

I am good at playing Taric, Nunu, Leona and Wardy McCarrier.

Hmmm... You like to play huge assasination burst characters and tanks with good amounts of CC.

You're good at playing Taric (tanky with some CC) and Leona (Tank with lots of CC)

Ever tried Cho'gath? Alistar? Xin Zhao? All are somewhat tanky using standard builds, all have good CC, and Cho and Xin have good damage (Ali is more of a force multiplier in my experience). Karthus might also be a good choice-build him health tanky, dive the enemy team with a few seconds after the melees, activate your E. Even if you die, you get 7 seconds of nonstop casting. And you get access to one of the most annoying ults in the game.

[EternalMelon]

Hmmm... You like to play huge assasination burst characters and tanks with good amounts of CC.
Hmmm, I guess I do, Maybe because theirs less time to screw up when your entire commitment takes 2 seconds of work. Oh, and I love Tanks and CC.

Very good job on reading me.
You're good at playing Taric (tanky with some CC) and Leona (Tank with lots of CC)


Ever tried Cho'gath? Alistar? Xin Zhao? All are somewhat tanky using standard builds, all have good CC, and Cho and Xin have good damage (Ali is more of a force multiplier in my experience).
Like, own, don't own.
I could try some top Cho (adding him to top list), but my Alistair is support, could try jungle.

Votes: (everyone can have three)

Cho: 1
Nunu: 1
Jungle Ali:1
X-to-dah-Z:1

[Thanatos 51-50]

Which characters (not roles) do you like/are good at playing?

Twitch. Lots of Twitch.

I'm getting better at Jungle Nunu, so much that he's basically my secondary champion.
And putting a concerted effort into learning Twisted Fate, Sona and Fiora. Of the three, though, the only one I've taken out of the practise games garage is Sona.

[Tychris1]

I put all 3 votes into Cho'gath. Show the Robot Gentlemen Bug some love.

[EternalMelon]

Twitch. Lots of Twitch.

I'm getting better at Jungle Nunu, so much that he's basically my secondary champion.
And putting a concerted effort into learning Twisted Fate, Sona and Fiora. Of the three, though, the only one I've taken out of the practise games garage is Sona.
Although I know you're talking about yourself, Ill put your vote into Twitch, Nunu, and TF/Fiora. :smallbiggrin:

I put all 3 votes into Cho'gath. Show the Robot Gentlemen Bug some love.
Tally-ho my bro, they call me Gentleman Cho: 4
Nunu: 2
Jungle Ali:1
X-to-dah-Z:1
Twitch:1
TF/Fiora (slash fic?):1

[Math_Mage]

I named a thread! YaY! The fact that I had no competition shall go unmentioned!

In other news, I've discovered I'm in a cycle of supporting, that usually goes like this: (I'm at step 8)

1. Melon, being the only willingly typecast-ed and competent support in its play group is forced to play support with whoever wants to adc (usually the pubbies).
2. Melon plays lots of support, eventually getting his adc player to leave role of choice.
3. Bot stomps. HARD
4. Melon plays lots of games with her adc player and his second choice for adc, starts to fall off.
5. Main adc player goes to his new super awesome pub-stomp role/character, leaving Melon to play with who-ever and her second choice.
6. Melons support role drops off hard, due to not enough chemistry between bot lane.
7. Melon "Quits supporting forever"
8. Melon tries, and fails, at playing other roles.

TL;DR
I need a new role and a champion to play EVERYONE VOTE!
Ps: I'm very near 6300 and don't have anything to buy (but maybe I'll buy Nami, but I can buy rp for her if I like her on the free week) so just vote away!

From experience, it's pretty easy to transition from playing support to playing AD carry as long as you practice your last-hitting. Besides that, a number of champions are mechanically similar to supports--Cho, Maokai, Mumu, Skarner, Nautilus, and Singed can feel like melee supports, while Galio, Kayle, Morgana, Zyra, Lux, and Nidalee can feel like ranged supports. My gut recommendations would be Graves, Cho, and Zyra, respectively.

[EternalMelon]

From experience, it's pretty easy to transition from playing support to playing AD carry as long as you practice your last-hitting. Besides that, a number of champions are mechanically similar to supports--Cho, Maokai, Mumu, Skarner, Nautilus, and Singed can feel like melee supports, while Galio, Kayle, Morgana, Zyra, Lux, and Nidalee can feel like ranged supports. My gut recommendations would be Graves, Cho, and Zyra, respectively.
My adc is... eh... well...

Tally-ho my bro, they call me Robo Gentleman Cho: 5
Nunu: 2
Jungle Ali: 1
X-to-dah-Z: 1
Twitch: 1
TF/Fiora (slash fic?): 1
Graves: 1
Poison Ivy I mean Zyra: 1

[Godskook]

I feel like a Shurelya's-less core is a huge mistake on Udyr.

The core I listed is incredibly cheap, and I could easily work in Philo, and get Shurelya's afterwards. Other than that, I feel that outside boot-enchant, all of it is really needed on him before Shurelya's. I mean, what would you sub out? Tenacity is stronger, and I'd rather have Swiftness than Merc's if possible. And by the point I can complete Golem, I really start needing the MR itemization.


The Doran's blade start sounds suspicious, too, especially since you're already building a Machete, but I haven't seen/tested it enough to make a sound judgement.

You probably realized already, but is a Tiger Stance start, and as long as I get some help on Wolves/Blue, I maintain similar(or better) HP to a Machete start.


Last time I checked, Furor doesn't actually do anything until you've already caught your enemy. And generally, if you pick a champion like Udyr into champions like Zyra and Varus you're going to find it hard to catch the enemy. Alacrity is definitely better early game, I think, and may/may not be worse than Distortion lategame. Udyr doesn't have problems sticking to champions, he has problems reaching them. For initiators, on-demand MS like Alacrity/Shurelya's and Flash CDR are much better than Furor.

I granted that Distortion is good, this is more about Alacrity. And Furor can be procced off everything, including minions, so there's very few times when you can't get it up.

Also, between masteries and swiftness, slows are significantly less problematic, to the point that I'm explicitly noticing many points where I'm reaching foes earlier and more reliably than I would've in S2.


Ravenous Hydra

Hydra still seems to have the same problems that tiamat had. It has out of place stats and is gimmicky.

Without the AoE, Hydra has comparable cost and damage to Bloodthirster unless you're building crit(worse, but comprable). With the AoE, it outpaces bloodthirster, both for damage and lifesteal. And then there's the active, which makes Hydra a stronger burst item(does the active proc lifesteal?) than BT. Udyr, for example, prefers Hydra over BT, in all places that he'd buy one or the other(if you weren't buying BT, you probably aren't going to buy Hydra either, but that's an irrelevant case). Riven, as another example, can probably go either way, but I'm not specifically sure there.

[TechnOkami]

No worried Melon, my ADC isn't the shiniest thing either (which I think is because my laptop doesn't exactly have the best frame rate). I can ADC in the sense of team fighting and being a murderous coward, but farming is a completely different ball game, for me at least.

Anywho, since he's not been voted for, my vote goes to Skarner. I love that bloody Crystal Scorpion.

[Reynard]

Riven, as another example, can probably go either way, but I'm not specifically sure there.

It's actually really good on Riven, due to both the massive AD it gives, and the fact that it's Active effect procs her passive, basically giving her another step in her burst combo.

[toasty]

No worried Melon, my ADC isn't the shiniest thing either (which I think is because my laptop doesn't exactly have the best frame rate). I can ADC in the sense of team fighting and being a murderous coward, but farming is a completely different ball game, for me at least.

Anywho, since he's not been voted for, my vote goes to Skarner. I love that bloody Crystal Scorpion.

Your frame rate doesn't drop in teamfights? Cuz that'd be where having a low frame rate would kill you.

[EternalMelon]

Tally-ho my bro, they call me Robo Gentleman Cho: 5
Skar-Skar-Skarner: 3
Nunu: 2
Jungle Ali: 1
X-to-dah-Z: 1
Twitch: 1
TF/Fiora (slash fic?): 1
Graves: 1
Poison Ivy I mean Zyra: 1

[TheShrike]

So it turns out there is a fairly rare bug right now where Ezreal can crit with 0% crit chance. Not only that, but his Q can crit. Again, this happens with 0% crit chance.

[McDouggal]

From experience, it's pretty easy to transition from playing support to playing AD carry as long as you practice your last-hitting. Besides that, a number of champions are mechanically similar to supports--Cho, Maokai, Mumu, Skarner, Nautilus, and Singed can feel like melee supports, while Galio, Kayle, Morgana, Zyra, Lux, and Nidalee can feel like ranged supports. My gut recommendations would be Graves, Cho, and Zyra, respectively.

Yes, but he seems to be playing tankier supports. Has the same problem I do - mained tankier characters that wanted to be in the middle of the fight, only squishies he played were champs that do their thing in 2 seconds and then are out of the fight. I am trying to learn ADC with Cait in bots right now, but it's not easy (and she's the ADC I have the most synergy with who isn't Ashe, who I didn't play for 2 and a half months and have discovered I completely suck with).

[TechnOkami]

Your frame rate doesn't drop in teamfights? Cuz that'd be where having a low frame rate would kill you.

From time to time it does, but it's not a common occurrence. Mostly it's the smoothness of the frames which inhibits me from last hitting all that effectively.

Like, for instance, I've just opened up a custom game with myself, and my FPS is sitting at roughly 30 to 32. When minions/champions are nearby, it fluctuates between that estimate and 24 roughly, most of the time staying near 30 but occasionally dipping.

Other than that, I do get random lag spikes or connection issues every now and then. It's annoying when it happens, but its not common enough to make the game unplayable. Whenever (and I literally mean whenever) I play a game, no matter the map, my laptop's FPS just tanks, and I get into the game about 5 seconds after everyone else. But it's only for the very very beginning, and once I've gotten out to lane or jungle it's fine. But yeah, my laptop's not exactly the best for playing games (hell, I can only play Saints Row The Third with a decent frame rate when all of the settings are at their lowest).

[Forrestfire]

Has anyone else had issues with the new shop not being responsive to the keyboard shortcut? I've had trouble a few times where I would hit "p" to open or close the shop and it would not register until I clicked it again.

Also, can anyone explain to me the reason behind all the official forum hate on the new Lux skin? I think it's pretty awesome :smallconfused:

[toasty]

Regarding positioning and ADC: Its hard. I've played 57 games with Vlad over the past 3 seasons and I'm... honestly I'm kinda bad with him. It literally took me 50 games just to learn how to lane. Now I need to play another 50 and MAYBE I can learn positioning.

I just suggest playing games. It doesn't matter if you are bad, just keep playing. Every game try to learn something. Keep experimenting with runes (well... there is less variance in ADC runes than... everyone else :smallbiggrin:) try out different builds. See what you like. If you win, do it again. If you lose, ask yourself what mistakes you made. Every death is avoidable. It is possible to end with a "perfect score" of 0 deaths.

My point with Vlad wasn't to be a preparation for failure. My point is that it takes time, but you can learn. I have learned a LOT from playing those vlad games. I've learned how to stand on the edge of a fight and do my best just to land 1 combo. Vlad has the ability to 1 shot squishies when properly fed/built, but he is an AOE mage. That strange combination means you want to be in the middle of the fight, but you'll die of you do that. So you learn to skirt the fight for as much long as possible.

Point is: It might take you 100 games, but you'll figure it out.:smallsmile:

[Godskook]

It's actually really good on Riven, due to both the massive AD it gives, and the fact that it's Active effect procs her passive, basically giving her another step in her burst combo.

Yeah, I expected that, just wasn't sure. Nice on the active, too.

[NineThePuma]

Also, can anyone explain to me the reason behind all the official forum hate on the new Lux skin? I think it's pretty awesome :smallconfused:

Basically, the crowd of people that loved the Katarina recall animation hates the new Lux skin because it's not sexy. Lux currently HAS 2 "armored/soldier" skins, and I guess people are just sort of sick of them.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Wondering what a good setup is, mastery-wise, for your average jungle bruiser. I went Hecarim in my last game, using my tank setup, because I didn't want to go in with Jax and my tank setup.

I came up with a 12/18/0 for bruisers, wondering what else might work well.
I used to run 9/21/0 for bruisers, but I think things have opened up a bit. I run my jungle tanks with 0/21/9 at the moment.

[TheShrike]

It's always fun when you're forced to play outside your comfort zone but still have the lane barely under control, and then your team decides to sit in your lane for 5 minutes feeding kills to your lanemate. Yes, there is a reason I am weaker than the enemy. No, it has nothing to do with losing all my farm to the ADC (who was building IE+Hurricane) and the support/ADC feeding kills whenever the jungler wandered by. Sure they won bot, but that doesn't mean they can go and lose mid for me.

And for those who know me, I am not a clever man when it comes to mid. All I do is play top lane mages and hope it sort-of works (Vlad, Cho, etc.).

[McDouggal]

OK, in a full blown teamfight, here's how I read the roles:

Bruiser: dive enemy ADC, kill.
Tank: Protect and peel for your ADC.
Support: Heal, throw your CC, contrbute what you can (usually means "peel for ADC")
ADC: Don't die. Shoot anything that comes within range of your autoattacks. Throw all abilities.
APC/Assassin: KILL THE SQUISHIES! And don't die. Can mean "kill the ADC" or "Kill the opposing APC/Assasin" OR "Kill the support."

Is this correct?

[Saveducks]

Is Nasus becoming popular again I've seen two in my last four ranked games and apparently Dyrus was playing him. What happened?

[Math_Mage]

OK, in a full blown teamfight, here's how I read the roles:

Bruiser: dive anyone, kill.
Tank: CC a target for your bruiser to kill
Support: Heal, throw your CC, contrbute what you can (usually means "peel for ADC")
ADC: Don't die. Shoot anything that comes within range of your autoattacks. Throw all abilities.
APC/Assassin: Play a physical bruiser that assassinates people anyway.

Is this correct?

That's how I read the current meta. There is, at present, no reason to go for mixed damage, because armor is horribly UP anyway.

No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?

[McDouggal]

That's how I read the current meta. There is, at present, no reason to go for mixed damage, because armor is horribly UP anyway.

No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?

I take it you didn't see my last video :smalltongue: That Ashe would disagree.

But... yeah. Defense in general just feels underpowered, so much so that I'm tempted to stack health and then cap it off with GA.

(hell, it took Rengar 3 seconds to kill my full health Shen with 300 armor-he had a brutailizer as his only Arpen. Yes, he was completely overfed-would kill anyone squishy if they weren't under a tower pretty much instantly, and he had no problems diving.)


Is Nasus becoming popular again I've seen two in my last four ranked games and apparently Dyrus was playing him. What happened?

Free week.

[Ashen Lilies]

Ugh. Dominion infuriates me. How hard of a concept is it, once we've won top lane, to just sit and defend it instead of running around the jungle like headless chickens, get picked off one by one, and then lose top and every other point of the map forever for all time. This goes for bot lane too. No, your job is not to charge straight at the other team's bot point and then die. Stop that. :smallannoyed:

[PersonMan]

Whenever (and I literally mean whenever) I play a game, no matter the map, my laptop's FPS just tanks, and I get into the game about 5 seconds after everyone else. But it's only for the very very beginning, and once I've gotten out to lane or jungle it's fine.

I often have this. Not all of the time, and only on TT/SR, but it's there.

*1 FPS Five!*


My point with Vlad wasn't to be a preparation for failure. My point is that it takes time, but you can learn. I have learned a LOT from playing those vlad games. I've learned how to stand on the edge of a fight and do my best just to land 1 combo. Vlad has the ability to 1 shot squishies when properly fed/built, but he is an AOE mage. That strange combination means you want to be in the middle of the fight, but you'll die if you do that. So you learn to skirt the fight for as much long as possible.

Hmm. This is quite different to what I do - I often just hurl myself into a fight, ult, Tides of Blood, Q something squishy and Trollpool if I'm being focused, using that to move out of the center of the fight towards whatever I want to hit first.

Zhonya's/Trollpool is the most hilarious combo ever. EQ, Trollpool, EQ, Zhonya's. Bohohoho.

---

In other news, I just saw a really good example of people relying on Flash too much. Lux was in our jungle, next to the tribush, (we were purple team) and was running from enemies coming from the bush. She lands a great snare...and Flashes over the wall.

I'm wondering why she did, since she could have easily just walked around the wall to get away instead of Flashing.

Then again, the fact that people sometimes Flash too soon is something I love as Zed/LB. Oh, you used a summoner spell with a ~3 minute CD? Backport says you wasted it. Bohoho.

Also, I've been having a ton of fun with Zed. Splitpush all day, get ganked, run through their jungle, clonejump over Dragon wall, waste Noc ult.

[Math_Mage]

I'll be super duper honest and say I'm not a fan of the new item UI right now. Yeah, it looks wonderfully organized, but the small buttons and large number of options at each step make it difficult to click through on reflex. This is especially the case when one wants to select multiple menu options at once, which is nice additional functionality in theory, but in practice the buttons are small enough that it's hard to use quickly, plus it takes an encyclopedic knowledge of the items to remember which combinations result in which items (this after a massive change in the item list).

The new UI also vastly increases the visual importance of the recommended items, which seems like a bad idea given Riot's previous history of questionable recommended builds--not to mention the possibility of multiple builds on one character for different roles and different games. Rec items are taking up a huge chunk of UI considering how crowded everything else is.

I'd like to see the item hierarchy have a little more nesting, and if the rec items could be relegated to a lesser area of the UI that'd also be great.

[McDouggal]

Ashe suicides on my Thornmail. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paq5JLQnWkI)

Pretty much full to 0, too.

This video has more views in 6 hours than my previous 2 videos combined.

[Math_Mage]

This video has more views in 6 hours than my previous 2 videos combined.

Well, I'm going to be super duper honest again and point out that nothing really interesting happened in the other two videos. Ashe suiciding on your Thornmail is at least morbidly fascinating for her stupidity.

[EifieFlare]

How do I deal with support Namis? There's been one on the enemy team in all but 1 of the 9 games I've played over the past couple of days. I haven't played bot lane in all 9 games, but when I do, it seems hard to do anything (outside of 3/4v2 ganking them) to the enemy bot lane between her sustain and CC.

And also, general question, what masteries are people usually going with for laning in nowadays? Are the capstone masteries in each tree still worth getting now, or is splitting points a lot better now? I run 0/16/14 or 0/17/13 (depends on summoners) for top laners, and still go 21/0/9 or 9/0/21 with mid laners, but I haven't found a really ideal page for the other roles.

[efdf]

The active on Hydra procs lifesteal
The active on Tiamat does not

[Mephit]

Twin shadows. I have seen this one in game but only once and it was a very brief glimpse. A semi-support item with MR, AP and MS. Again, some weird combo of stats that no champion really wants that badly. Maybe an item for Galio is he gets an early kage's pick but otherwise I can't think of anyone that wants this.

Supports like the item, it builds out of Kage's and it offers utility out the wazoo.

[LordShotGun]

Supports like the item, it builds out of Kage's and it offers utility out the wazoo.

Thing is, shard of true ice ALSO builds out of kage and keeps it's gp10, is 200 gold cheaper and arguable has a better active (if you have a gap closing tanky character to put it on) that is available twice as often.

Personally I just find shard of ice to be a better item overall, espcially if you have mana hungry allies like corki, ez, graves, and most AP mids and some top laners since it gives mana regen in an aura.

The only thing I would give Twin shadows over ice shard is the stats are slightly better for melee supports. I would get shadows over ice on taric and maybe alistar but otherwise I would go ice shard.

[Mephit]

The active on Twin Shadows is a lot better than True Ice's in a lot of situations. The ghouls are amazing as scouts as they'll reveal at least the direction of the nearest enemies, and they can double as initiation. That's why the cooldown is so high: it's an amazing active.
Shard is great, too, but it's not a case of one always being better than the other in my (limited) experience so far.

[Laudandus]

Thing is, shard of true ice ALSO builds out of kage and keeps it's gp10, is 200 gold cheaper and arguable has a better active (if you have a gap closing tanky character to put it on) that is available twice as often.

Personally I just find shard of ice to be a better item overall, espcially if you have mana hungry allies like corki, ez, graves, and most AP mids and some top laners since it gives mana regen in an aura.

The only thing I would give Twin shadows over ice shard is the stats are slightly better for melee supports. I would get shadows over ice on taric and maybe alistar but otherwise I would go ice shard.

The big issue is that the actives really aren't the same. In a team fight they're similar, with true ice probably being better, but in lane or small fights, and for scouting, the active on twin shadows is notably better. It also has proven in my experience to be very, very strong on AP mids insofar as AP mids are a playable thing right now.

MY SEASON 3 EXPERIENCES SO FAR, THE STORY:

I think the most notable items are Liandry's Torment (Real OP on Swain and Zyra, but I've seen few other champions use it well), new Warmog's (this item is insane!), Iceborn Gauntlet (why yes, I do love it when my phage and sheen are AoE and come with mana, CDR, and armor), and Black Cleaver.

I think Gangplank is very strong, and I've been maining him and consistently winning almost every lane. It seems to be the consensus that almost every AD caster is broken, and in particular it seems like Talon, Kha'Zix, Riven, Lee Sin, and especially Pantheon are likely top-tiers, though who knows how much of that will change with the Black Cleaver and Brutalizer nerfs.

Has anyone experimented with bot lanes? It seems like AD carries might not be necessary anymore because other things scale almost as well or better, but I'm not sure.

I think teleport/flash and buy distortion boots early is OP on top and mid laners. Teleport Ryze in mid and Gangplank in top both seem extremely strong, since the cooldown goes down to 200 seconds with distortion boots and mastermind.

[Winthur]

MY SEASON 3 EXPERIENCES SO FAR, THE STORY:
Carrying with 6/0/12 Gangplank against Aphrolift duo queue


:smalltongue:

[inthesto]

Ugh. Dominion infuriates me. How hard of a concept is it, once we've won top lane, to just sit and defend it instead of running around the jungle like headless chickens, get picked off one by one, and then lose top and every other point of the map forever for all time. This goes for bot lane too. No, your job is not to charge straight at the other team's bot point and then die. Stop that. :smallannoyed:

Unfortunately, "cap three and hold" is a mentality that loses a lot of games at mid elo. If you win the windmill fight and try to squat on it too hard, you're very vulnerable to two things: Your bot laner getting ganked or your mid point getting backcapped. Backcapping the mid point when the enemy team is camping top is a very common and simple play: Send your best duelist to uncap the enemy mid. This forces the enemy team to respond by either walking down the lane (takes a long time and will almost certainly give you the uncap) or going through the jungle (extremely risky because a smart team will set up a brush and speed shrine advantage). If the enemy team sends two or more people, you can now force an unfair fight at the top point.

Despite the objectives being so clearly laid out on the map, dominion is far less linear than SR. Don't be tricked into thinking slow defensive strategies are strong (until you hit the last 50 points or so).

[LordShotGun]

So Friggin Pissed Right Now. For Some Reason The Champion Trade System Is Broken And I Got Locked With A Shen With Ap Runes And Masteries And My Teammate Vald Had Smite And Jungle Masteries!!!!


Game Lost From Start (even though we did try to win...)

Anyway back on topic


The big issue is that the actives really aren't the same. In a team fight they're similar, with true ice probably being better, but in lane or small fights, and for scouting, the active on twin shadows is notably better. It also has proven in my experience to be very, very strong on AP mids insofar as AP mids are a playable thing right now.


I think that by the time you get it, laning phase is over. If you do get it by laning phase, then you either rushed it or are so fed that the game is probably over. In the rare case this is not so, then sure, why not? It just seems to me that in the majority of cases you don't have enough cash to just be throwing stuff around and true ice seems more gold efficient especially since it keeps the GP10.

[sonofzeal]

Unfortunately, "cap three and hold" is a mentality that loses a lot of games at mid elo. If you win the windmill fight and try to squat on it too hard, you're very vulnerable to two things: Your bot laner getting ganked or your mid point getting backcapped. Backcapping the mid point when the enemy team is camping top is a very common and simple play: Send your best duelist to uncap the enemy mid. This forces the enemy team to respond by either walking down the lane (takes a long time and will almost certainly give you the uncap) or going through the jungle (extremely risky because a smart team will set up a brush and speed shrine advantage). If the enemy team sends two or more people, you can now force an unfair fight at the top point.

Despite the objectives being so clearly laid out on the map, dominion is far less linear than SR. Don't be tricked into thinking slow defensive strategies are strong (until you hit the last 50 points or so).
+1

I find you need to constantly be pressing for advantage. As soon as you adopt a purely defensive posture, they can hit you with locally superior forces even if your team is significantly more fed, which is less likely in Dominion anyway given higher ambient gold and lower gold-per-kill helping keep gold scores somewhat closer.

That said... when you have FOUR of their points, charging off for the fifth is usually a losing call. That's just asking for disaster. And, as Inthesto said, the balance between attack and defence shifts more towards defence as you close in on the end. The weakness of a defence posture is that once they figure out your arrangement you invite "defeat in detail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail)", but that ceases to apply when the timers are such that they can't afford to run across the map to a weakly defended point. Once they get desperate, you've got little to gain from further aggression and a lot to lose by letting a point get capped from you. But that's not true through most of the game, imo.

[toasty]

So maybe I can play Xin top and still carry... that was a pretty hilarious game.

Xin v J4 top. I all in at level 2 only to discover both our junglers are fighting in the bush (Cho v Lee). I kinda panic a little bit, but ultimately get first blood on j4 and then kill Cho when he tries to hold lane (dat Q+E combo). So I'm up 2-0 and have Blue.

J4 stops laning. Its 5 minutes into the game and he flat out refuses to go top. I'm 52 cs and he is 19 when he finally returns from feeding our Graves more kills and me and Lee just dive him. I die, but we kill him. When I return to lane I take tower and roam.

The game was pretty interesting because I think I might have had the most burst on our team. IE: very long teamfights. The thing is, they were hilarious because the enemy would realize they'd lost and we'd charge in with all our beautiful gap closers and CC (Lee/Xin OP). We had a Teemo who build Huricane/Deathcap (weird build, but he was getting triple kills so I don't care) and the fights would last forever as we kite them into teemo shrooms.

Also: Solo Queue Namis suck. They are squishy and die and miss their skillshots. BUT: the hero on paper looks amazing: 2 typs of CC and a Heal? Hell yeah.

[EternalMelon]

Looks like Cho won the vote!
Operation Nightmare Gentleman robo bug dinosaur ninja pirate zombie toaster is a go!

[NineThePuma]

Teemo with AP is ridiculous.

Teemo with AS and AP and On Hit is even more ridiculous.

Season 3 buffed Teemo to a surprising degree.

[PersonMan]

How do I deal with support Namis? There's been one on the enemy team in all but 1 of the 9 games I've played over the past couple of days. I haven't played bot lane in all 9 games, but when I do, it seems hard to do anything (outside of 3/4v2 ganking them) to the enemy bot lane between her sustain and CC.

I've been able to keep a handle on all the ones I've fought as Soraka/LB.

On-demand silence is wonderful when dealing with mage supports. I also think that early aggression could be really good, as she can't do much more than (normally they start with Q, this might not always be true) one AoE stun, so if you can dodge it you can trade well.

It's a situation in which I think going boots start would be mega helpful. Dodging those bubbles is going to make the difference between winning an exchange and looking at a grey screen as your ADC goes "oh suddenly this is 2v1 crap".

---

Anyone else ever suddenly feel like you're really good at some point in a game? This last game, with Zed, there was so much maneuvering and poking and flanking, I understood all of it and felt like a god, escaping whenever they tried to do a WW-ult-team-collapse on me.

---

Meanwhile Zed is still absurdly fun. Lose FB, outfarm and slowly get an advantage top lane, dominate teamfights <3.

I also took the role of team leader after we lost some teamfights due to being split up, but they kept engaging on us while I was protecting towers from minion pushes, so we lost. Still wonderful, though.

And 2 Ranked wins, so far I'm 2-0 this season. I think I'll space 'em out, I don't want to push my luck.

[Godskook]

We had a Teemo who build Huricane/Deathcap (weird build, but he was getting triple kills so I don't care) and the fights would last forever as we kite them into teemo shrooms.

People have been expecting that build since Hurricane was announced. Personally, I wanna do it and then quote lines like:

-Here I am
-Rocked you like a Hurricane


Also: Solo Queue Namis suck. They are squishy and die and miss their skillshots. BUT: the hero on paper looks amazing: 2 typs of CC and a Heal? Hell yeah.

On the flipside, I've never seen a 'bad' Nami, relative to her team-mates.

[Silverraptor]

Does hurricane proc teemo's poison?

[Woodzyowl]

The active on Hydra procs lifesteal
The active on Tiamat does not

Hydra also has a vamp scepter built in, while Tiamat does not. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

Does hurricane proc teemo's poison?

It should.

[NineThePuma]

Hurricane applies on hits to each target.

Teemo poison is an On Hit.

[Silverraptor]

Awesome. Need to try this out myself now.:smallbiggrin:

[NineThePuma]

No, you should try AP Mid Varus. Max W, get a hurricane, apply stacks and then obliterate them with your abilities. It's not something I'd try in "serious" games, but it's actually really awesome.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Wondering what a good setup is, mastery-wise, for your average jungle bruiser. I went Hecarim in my last game, using my tank setup, because I didn't want to go in with Jax and my tank setup.

I came up with a 12/18/0 for bruisers, wondering what else might work well.
I used to run 9/21/0 for bruisers, but I think things have opened up a bit. I run my jungle tanks with 0/21/9 at the moment.

Seemed to get lost on the last page, reposting.

[PersonMan]

Seemed to get lost on the last page, reposting.

I basically always go a full mix on junglers. +Minion Damage, AS, too, generally, -Minion Damage, +Buff Duration, +Movespeed.

[Ashen Lilies]

On the flipside, I've never seen a 'bad' Nami, relative to her team-mates.

I have. AP Nami one Twisted Treeline. Thought she was the tank. :smalltongue: We all did rather terribly, but Nami got around 16 deaths around the end there, compared to about 7 for each of us other two.

[Lix Lorn]

Teemo with AP is ridiculous.

Teemo with AS and AP and On Hit is even more ridiculous.

Season 3 buffed Teemo to a surprising degree.
Who's surprised? xD

[Duos]

Mumble dun broke for me. I got DC'd and now when I reconnect, the only channel visible is Root and it keeps closing, "Remote host closed etc etc."

Anybody have any idea what's going on?

[Math_Mage]

Seemed to get lost on the last page, reposting.

It is pretty flexible at the moment. There are at least half a dozen solid combinations between 21/9/0 and 9/21/0, there's some 9/12/9 spec that still works, 0/21/9 and 0/18/12 and even 9/9/12 work on mage junglers (plus a different 9/21/0), so there's lots to experiment with--the flip side being that it's hard to give your question any definitive answers.

[Copacetic]

Does hurricane proc teemo's poison?

On a similar note, does Liandra's trigger on Teemo's poison?

[NineThePuma]

Liandra's will not proc on Poison, but does proc off of Darts and Traps.

[Renegade Paladin]

Did they take Guardian Angel out of the game? I can't find it in the store since the Nami patch.

[Ashen Lilies]

It's still there, I believe.

Edit: Yes it is. Just checked.

[NineThePuma]

It's still in game. I just bought one a while ago.

[9mm]

Alright, I'm finally confident to say this: Riot has no goddamn clue how to balance the jungle. They want to make jungle farm relevant, so they make it worth money AFTER the laning phase is typically over, force specific build starts on most of the junglers making the gold starvation even MORE acute, make it harder to gank via wards everywhere, which leads to gold starvation as you now need to permanently carry pink wards, and oh did we mention how the jungle is worth less early even though you need to buy more gear? Brace yourselves... the gold independent junglers are coming.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's still in game. I just bought one a while ago.
Does it not build from Chain Vest anymore? Because that's how I've looked for it; find Chain Vest and look at the things it builds.

[TechnOkami]

Brace yourselves... the gold independent junglers are coming.

...Do gold independent junglers even exist?

[LordShotGun]

...Do gold independent junglers even exist?

Alistar if there ever is one.
Perhaps maokia for another.

Nocturn is still good even with gold starvation since his core has always been wriggles and after level 6 does not rely on the more common methods of ganking.

Olaf has certainly suffered but is still decent.

Udyr is still stealth OP

All jungle tanks have suffered the pains of recent armor shred buff plus the giant OPness of black cleaver making pure tank jungles less valuable.

Fiddle is surprisingly good now if you max his fear first and hope your gank partner can deal damage since he doesn't really need items to be effective (at least early game) and if he does get some kills he can be a real terror since MR has been increased in price.

[Winthur]

Brace yourselves... the gold independent junglers are coming.

Most of those gold independent junglers are support junglers with AoE skills. Given that
1) mid lane can't really take the jungle on its own anymore early on
2) AoE damage got nerfed in the jungle in the sense that single target junglers deal more damage
3) global gold /10 gain has been increased
4) wouldn't the "wards everywhere" cause less jungle pressure overall and therefore more time to take camps?
5) the fact that professional junglers like Snoopeh, Saint and Chauster seem to approve of Jax and Gangplank who can't be called gold independent
I'm inclined to disagree.

[toasty]

...Do gold independent junglers even exist?

Every jungler who was played at the professional level at Worlds, MLG Dallas, Lonestar Clash, and IPL5.

[Winthur]

Every jungler who was played at the professional level at Worlds, MLG Dallas, Lonestar Clash, and IPL5.

None of which included Season 3 changes.

[Temotei]

None of which included Season 3 changes.

That wasn't the point. Mostly everyone who jungled in Season 2 didn't need gold to be useful.

[Thrawn183]

Unfortunately, "cap three and hold" is a mentality that loses a lot of games at mid elo. If you win the windmill fight and try to squat on it too hard, you're very vulnerable to two things: Your bot laner getting ganked or your mid point getting backcapped. Backcapping the mid point when the enemy team is camping top is a very common and simple play: Send your best duelist to uncap the enemy mid. This forces the enemy team to respond by either walking down the lane (takes a long time and will almost certainly give you the uncap) or going through the jungle (extremely risky because a smart team will set up a brush and speed shrine advantage). If the enemy team sends two or more people, you can now force an unfair fight at the top point.

This guy knows what he's talking about. When it comes to Dominion there are a few simple rules to follow:

1) Build Tanky
2) Recall outside of enemy vision
3) Don't die defending a point you can't save
4) Don't die attacking a point you can't take
5) Don't die in the jungle like a chicken with its head cut off

[Ashen Lilies]

This guy knows what he's talking about. When it comes to Dominion there are a few simple rules to follow:

1) Build Tanky
2) Recall outside of enemy vision
3) Don't die defending a point you can't save
4) Don't die attacking a point you can't take
5) Don't die in the jungle like a chicken with its head cut off

I was guilty of not doing the first one (Dominion Evelynn seemed like a good idea at the time!), everyone else was guilty of doing the remaining 4.

[Winthur]

That wasn't the point. Mostly everyone who jungled in Season 2 didn't need gold to be useful.

I remember Season 2 to have been a platform for Moscow 5 domination in the EU scene and it involved lots of Shyvana/Mundo jungle. In solo queue, you can't tell me that Lee Sin or Mundo jungle isn't a preferred pick over Maokai.

Sure, end-of-season tournament games have been rather one-sided in that regard, but looking at a season as a whole and at the new changes?

Actually, now that I think of it, I remember TPA Lilballz picking Mundo whenever he could...

[9mm]

...Do gold independent junglers even exist?

yes, any jungler that can have impacts with no items are gold independent; Amumu just needs to be able to ult, and he's done his job.

Now I will admit that it could be likely that my personal stable of junglers has once again been shrunk due to Riot being idiots, but then I remember when there was the most variety of junglers and who got picked was meta game dependent; way back when in ****ing season 1. Then riot started messing with it because they'd yet to actually figure out how to educate players how important dragon was.

edit: And I realized why it bugs me this much; it feels like the start of season 2 all over again. Where the jungler was essentially just kicked in the nads if a gank didn't produce a kill. Only this time, you get kicked in the nads for trying to farm too.

[Winthur]

For what it's worth (yes I'm aware the NA scene is bad, but honestly: the amount of people on these forums that wouldn't learn anything from watching the SoloMid Invitationals can be counted on one hand of a really unlucky butcher) - current jungle picks in TSM vs Crs right now are Rengar and Nocturne. I see more Rengars, Nocturnes, Olafs, even Jaxes overall nowadays.

[inthesto]

This guy knows what he's talking about. When it comes to Dominion there are a few simple rules to follow:

1) Build Tanky
2) Recall outside of enemy vision
3) Don't die defending a point you can't save
4) Don't die attacking a point you can't take
5) Don't die in the jungle like a chicken with its head cut off

This first rule doesn't really apply anymore, thanks to black cleaver. It'll be reinstated as soon as the item gets peaced out of dominion, though!

That said, there are plenty of characters who are allowed to build glass cannon. They include assassins, characters who can disengage at will, and characters with incredible poke. It's just that you really have to know what you're doing if you're going to do that.

[sonofzeal]

This guy knows what he's talking about. When it comes to Dominion there are a few simple rules to follow:

1) Build Tanky
2) Recall outside of enemy vision
3) Don't die defending a point you can't save
4) Don't die attacking a point you can't take
5) Don't die in the jungle like a chicken with its head cut off
I'd say #2, 4, and 5 are excellent rules, but #1 and #3 have exceptions. Sometimes, staying to fight 2v1 (or, rarely, 3v1) on your turret is a good idea even if you know you're probably going to lose, if you can slow them down by even 5-10 seconds and take off a big chunk of health while you're doing so. And you never know, you might get lucky or there might be a Ziggs/Lux/Ashe/TF/Shen/Soraka/Pantheon/Karthus/etc character on your team who's in a position to lend a little assistance even if they're not that near the point. But mostly, there's value in simply making the enemy bleed to take a point away from you. If you're just going to get squashed like a chump, yeah, run - but if you can make them pay for it, there's far worse ways to die than holding a point for a few extra seconds.

[inthesto]

I'd say #2, 4, and 5 are excellent rules, but #1 and #3 have exceptions. Sometimes, staying to fight 2v1 (or, rarely, 3v1) on your turret is a good idea even if you know you're probably going to lose, if you can slow them down by even 5-10 seconds and take off a big chunk of health while you're doing so. And you never know, you might get lucky or there might be a Ziggs/Lux/Ashe/TF/Shen/Soraka/Pantheon/Karthus/etc character on your team who's in a position to lend a little assistance even if they're not that near the point. But mostly, there's value in simply making the enemy bleed to take a point away from you. If you're just going to get squashed like a chump, yeah, run - but if you can make them pay for it, there's far worse ways to die than holding a point for a few extra seconds.

It's always worth holding a point if you know your teammates will make it in time to clean up. But knowing whether or not that will happen takes a fair amount of experience, and these are the super basic rules for Dominion.

Speaking of which, the real first two reals of Dominion should be:

1) Take revive
2) Take garrison, because nobody else on your team is going to do it
2.5) If a teammate does take garrison, give that player honor after the match

[Eldariel]

This guy knows what he's talking about. When it comes to Dominion there are a few simple rules to follow:

1) Build Tanky
2) Recall outside of enemy vision
3) Don't die defending a point you can't save
4) Don't die attacking a point you can't take
5) Don't die in the jungle like a chicken with its head cut off

These are all overgeneralizations. There are times when defending a point and dying buys more time than recalling and your respawn costs your team, while they're going for another point.

A very common call in my team is "delay them as long as you can", especially when the lone defender is built holder (e.g. most bots) or carries Garrison or has amazing poke. This tends to involve the awareness that the defender will die eventually and the point will be lost but the time gained will be used to gain another point, often quest objective on the other side of the map, a trade that's pretty much always worth it.

In the same vein, a single man can generate a feint attack especially with help of minions that provokes the opponent into an oversized counterattack; taking the bait with iron jaws, so to speak. This can again be used to push plays on the other side of the map.


Building tanky only applies to tanky types. The map has the same roles as SR, more or less. The only difference is that mages should mostly favor tanky builds over their SR counterparts since burst is less important than sustained damage in fights most of the time. Oh, and supports have comparatively a lot of gold so they can go APy in addition to the normal aura builds.

But AD carries should still build very much glass cannon (with slight investment into not getting one-shot), assassins build Black Cleavers, bruisers should build either tanky in a slugging comp or heavy on damage in an AOE comp, and point holders need to be tanky. Ideally, everybody but AD carries should be between these two extremes somewhere.


And recalling outside enemy vision only applies if you have the luxury of spare time or are not aware of approximate enemy positions at the moment. After you've 3-man rushed top while enemy is pressuring bottom you recall right then and there, since those 3 seconds will probably determine whether bot is held or not.

And the "don't die in the jungle"-part is the most important: Whenever anybody gets picked off alone, it's supereasy to convert into a point. This has two consequences; you should always be looking for those pickoffs in the jungle with your team and you should never be in a position to get picked off; that is, alone (or in too small group) in the jungle with uncertain enemy positions or too far in the lane after respawns.

[sonofzeal]

1) Take revive
2) Take garrison, because nobody else on your team is going to do it
2.5) If a teammate does take garrison, give that player honor after the match
Actually, I find garrison is of pretty low value. Most of the times you'd want to use it on defence, somebody's suppressing the turret anyway. And the characters I use tend not to need it on attacking... or you've got allies to suppress anyway. Seems a low-percentage pick to me.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I find garrison is of pretty low value. Most of the times you'd want to use it on defence, somebody's suppressing the turret anyway. And the characters I use tend not to need it on attacking... or you've got allies to suppress anyway. Seems a low-percentage pick to me.

Generally somebody carries one in tournament games every time. The utility for extended tower anti-capturing and for each of towerdiving is worth one summoner spell slot; the question is just who's the best to carry it.

Generally in tournament games it's the protector/initiator slot who otherwise has trouble defending alone but tends to be quite hard to kill thus giving the role extra utility too, but in normals it can be pretty much anyone.

[inthesto]

Actually, I find garrison is of pretty low value. Most of the times you'd want to use it on defence, somebody's suppressing the turret anyway. And the characters I use tend not to need it on attacking... or you've got allies to suppress anyway. Seems a low-percentage pick to me.

After revive, I'd argue garrison is the best summoner spell. Its only real competition is exhaust.

Garrison is what lets you tower dive with impunity. Garrison allows you to defend one against three and walk out alive, possibly with a triple kill if your opponents are especially stupid. Garrison allows you to even the odds against a super pushing opponent in bot lane because you had no idea who you were up against in blind pick.

If revive didn't exist, you would almost certainly see ten garrisons in every high level game.

Also, I'm going to nitpick with the "dominion roles are the same as SR" line. Junglers clearly don't exist in dominion, supports play quite differently, and AD carries are generally optional. If there's one thing I like about dominion, it's the fact that team compositions are far more dynamic than they are on SR.

[Temotei]

I remember Season 2 to have been a platform for Moscow 5 domination in the EU scene and it involved lots of Shyvana/Mundo jungle. In solo queue, you can't tell me that Lee Sin or Mundo jungle isn't a preferred pick over Maokai.

To be fair, Shyvana doesn't need much to be useful because she does a ton of damage without trying and she's pretty tanky without many items.

Mundo also doesn't really need much because he has so much inherent tankiness and damage without itemization.

Lee's got utility and great ratios, making a few items go a long way.

But yeah, gold-independent junglers refers to all of those end-of-season junglers in Season 2 plus a few others. The point that none of the Season 3 changes were in effect yet doesn't change the fact that those junglers are gold-independent.

[Mabn]

I played Nautilus in the season 3 jungle in what I'm pretty sure was the worst game I have ever played. I died trying to get blue and due to monster scaling and counterjungling I didn't clear jungle the entire game and I was too many levels behind to gank even if every lane wasn't feeding. Considering Amumu and Malphite seem to be banned every single game, how does Naut make it through early game nowaday?

[9mm]

I played Nautilus in the season 3 jungle in what I'm pretty sure was the worst game I have ever played. I died trying to get blue and due to monster scaling and counterjungling I didn't clear jungle the entire game and I was too many levels behind to gank even if every lane wasn't feeding. Considering Amumu and Malphite seem to be banned every single game, how does Naut make it through early game nowaday?

he probably doesn't; Naut is straight up the type of gank tank Riot was trying to weaken for S3.

[ChaosOS]

I'll also throw out that the jungler meta has definitively been effected by the move to 2v1 lanes. Shyvana and Mundo, strong counter-junglers with weaker ganks, are not nearly as valuable when there's a lot more early aggression with level 3 dives being a more common strat.

[knightMARE]

Speaking of 2v1 Lanes, who would be best to run 2v1 bottom versus your standard ADC/Support lane? I was thinking of taking Yorrick down there, as the sustain will help

[PersonMan]

People with the range to CS would be good, so I'd say ranged people like Kennen. Yorick could work. Vlad can farm well and has Anti-Towerdiving-Pool.

[Temotei]

Speaking of 2v1 Lanes, who would be best to run 2v1 bottom versus your standard ADC/Support lane? I was thinking of taking Yorrick down there, as the sustain will help

I've run Gragas when I'm purple team, switching the AD/support to mid.

I've also done Soraka because of afk people and that went surprisingly well because they were making really dumb plays.

Lee, too, though it's definitely not ideal.

[Silverraptor]

I think Cwcriner said people who don't necessarily need CS shine down there.

[Godskook]

I want to point out that Muramana is *REALLY* strong.

-Higher mana pool makes it easier to out-poke your opponents without getting into close range combat.
-Low cost to start(700g) and finish(2100g) makes it really easy to build in lanes when you're losing or winning.
-Insanely high damage-per-gold ratio makes it phenomenal as a mid-late game item(at least about 60 AD finished, without building other mana).
-Building mana-tanky(Frozen Heart + BV gives Jayce about 70 AD, plus 150 max-proc on autos) on top of it makes the damage-per-slot ratio stronger than bloodthirster on at least some champions.

Not sure if it outpaces crit itemization, but it'd do wonders on say....fed supports who want to supplement their damage output, or top laners who're really mana hungry(especially ones with good single-target poke somehow).

Its also probably completely OP on Ryze, since he builds pure mana anyway, has mostly single-target spells, and wanted a way to destroy turrets. Speaking of Ryze, his itemization in S3 is completely ridiculous in general. There's more catalyst upgrades, Archangels got Seraph now, and Crucible. Seriously, just Crucible alone is ridiculous on him, especially if he already built Muramana/Seraph, and thus really wants the Mp5 of chalice, but didn't want to build Athene's.

[Math_Mage]

Cho, Yorick, Kennen, and Galio are some champs that shine in a 1v2 lane. If you give them blue buff from level 1, the list expands dramatically, but that requires big plays, and it's only for purple team.

[Laudandus]

I think Cwcriner said people who don't necessarily need CS shine down there.

You have to have good low-cs utility, long-ranged farming, and resistance to dives. Yorick is the gold standard for 1v2, because he farms defensively and makes your fed 2v1'ing ad carry better. Kennen/Galio/Morgana should be alright for similar reasons.


I want to point out that Muramana is *REALLY* strong.


Its overwhelming inferiority to Black Cleaver aside, I think that Muramana is indeed very powerful. The thing is that you are weak after Tear, so it only works really well on people who like having a tear in lane. Yorick, Kha'Zix, and Urgot really want it, but I'm not sure exactly who else does.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Caitlyn might have fun with it, although I'm not sure which of her spells it might apply to... I know it would add a nice burst (physical -and- magical) to her Ult...

[sonofzeal]

Its overwhelming inferiority to Black Cleaver aside, I think that Muramana is indeed very powerful. The thing is that you are weak after Tear, so it only works really well on people who like having a tear in lane. Yorick, Kha'Zix, and Urgot really want it, but I'm not sure exactly who else does.
As an aside - in TT, if Urgot starts Tear he can spend the whole time until minions spawn, spamming his Q in the fountain to charge it up for free. I'm pretty sure that'll get patched, but until then anyone with a 3-second CD or less at lvl 1 with no CDR, who likes Tear or the things it builds into, can come into game with a healthy charge already built up. Granted that's a fairly short list.... :smallsigh:

[Mabn]

As an aside - in TT, if Urgot starts Tear he can spend the whole time until minions spawn, spamming his Q in the fountain to charge it up for free. I'm pretty sure that'll get patched, but until then anyone with a 3-second CD or less at lvl 1 with no CDR, who likes Tear or the things it builds into, can come into game with a healthy charge already built up. Granted that's a fairly short list.... :smallsigh:

The same thing works in dominion, but singed is the only champion I can think of who would want to

[Psyborg]

I want to point out that Muramana is *REALLY* strong.

Muramana Syndra is supposedly Black-Cleaver-level overpowered, since her ult procs it for each orb. I haven't seen it yet, but my own rough mathcrafting supports this conclusion.

[Godskook]

Its overwhelming inferiority to Black Cleaver aside, I think that Muramana is indeed very powerful. The thing is that you are weak after Tear, so it only works really well on people who like having a tear in lane. Yorick, Kha'Zix, and Urgot really want it, but I'm not sure exactly who else does.

1.I'm trying to ignore the existance of Cleaver until Riot gets it into something resembling a final product.

2.I'll grant that you're 'weaker' in an all-in scenario or if your opponent has poke superiority, but if you're capable of maintaining poke in the lane, Tear isn't nearly as much of a loss.

Otoh, a quick champion inventory reveals a surprisingly small amount of champions who'd be willing enough to build an AD item with a proc that only works on single-target spells, outside ranged auto-attackers.


Muramana Syndra is supposedly Black-Cleaver-level overpowered, since her ult procs it for each orb. I haven't seen it yet, but my own rough mathcrafting supports this conclusion.

Seems gimmicky, doesn't offer Syndra anything particularly useful(Her AP-based wave-clear was fine) prior to converting Muramana, and afterwards, its really just a discussion between dead and mostly dead. In a teamfight, the distinction probably won't matter.

Compare with LeBlanc, who would really enjoy the wave-clear benefits of having AD and mana and has better CDs to avoid being gimmicky.

In either case, I'm mostly concerned that the stats "come out wrong", similarly to how Archangels always looked good on paper for Singed before S3, but he could never, ever afford the loss of lane dominance required to purchase it.

(Speaking of which, has anyone tried Seraph on Singed in S3? It seems like the changes to how tear worked(cheaper and easier for him to stack), combined with Seraph's active, would've made it viable on him.)

[Ashen Lilies]

Compare with LeBlanc, who would really enjoy the wave-clear benefits of having AD and mana and has better CDs to avoid being gimmicky.


As a sometimes LeBlanc player, this interests me. Teach me, master.

Also, does Muramana's toggle work on Ryze's 'single' target abilities even during Desperate Power?

[sonofzeal]

So, I discovered the counter to Brut-start Urgot - Fiddlesticks. I'd just done my usual pwnage in a PVP game where our Nasus was AFK until we were down to double digits, bullying the opposing Caitlyn way out of lane... but we lost top, they swarmed me bot, and I did well enough overall but couldn't pull back from the 4v5. To get my first win, then, I headed to Intermediate bots... and proceeded to get my metalic arse handed to me by Fiddlesticks. He'd started with boots so he could outrun me if I tried to disengage, and fear + drain completely trumped my damage output.

Ah well. Everything has a counter.

[Laudandus]

1.I'm trying to ignore the existance of Cleaver until Riot gets it into something resembling a final product.

2.I'll grant that you're 'weaker' in an all-in scenario or if your opponent has poke superiority, but if you're capable of maintaining poke in the lane, Tear isn't nearly as much of a loss.

1. Granted, yeah. It's hard to test the meta right now because it's so overpowered, so when you're thinking about builds it kind of just rules out every other item.

2. It also has a high chance of losing you poke superiority. It's a reasonable item for sure, but I tend to feel bad about building it early in top lane and frequently it's possible for the upsides to be dwarfed by the downsides. Ezreal, for example, I think should not build Tear.

[McDouggal]

So, I discovered the counter to Brut-start Urgot - Fiddlesticks. I'd just done my usual pwnage in a PVP game where our Nasus was AFK until we were down to double digits, bullying the opposing Caitlyn way out of lane... but we lost top, they swarmed me bot, and I did well enough overall but couldn't pull back from the 4v5. To get my first win, then, I headed to Intermediate bots... and proceeded to get my metalic arse handed to me by Fiddlesticks. He'd started with boots so he could outrun me if I tried to disengage, and fear + drain completely trumped my damage output.

Ah well. Everything has a counter.

Played Mundo mid a few days ago due to a miscommunication. I've done it before - Squishy mid champs without any sustain have a rough time (as in "Dat cleaver. Do you EVER miss?"). Yeah... I thought it was going to be Fiddles in the jungle, Teemo mid, Jax top.

Yeah... Jax jungle, Teemo top, Fiddles mid. I got my ass handed to me because my poke was just a drain away from negation.

We lost the game because fiddles never left lane except for blue until level 13 and farmed excellently. I took the blame, on my own, at the 5 minute mark for the loss.

[sonofzeal]

Played Mundo mid a few days ago due to a miscommunication. I've done it before - Squishy mid champs without any sustain have a rough time (as in "Dat cleaver. Do you EVER miss?"). Yeah... I thought it was going to be Fiddles in the jungle, Teemo mid, Jax top.

Yeah... Jax jungle, Teemo top, Fiddles mid. I got my ass handed to me because my poke was just a drain away from negation.

We lost the game because fiddles never left lane except for blue until level 13 and farmed excellently. I took the blame, on my own, at the 5 minute mark for the loss.
Yeeeeeah. I'm never again laning against Fiddles on a character without mobility or hard CC. On a champion I'd been crushing with in PVP, to get utterly dominated by a bot was... embarrassing. But with no efficient way to break tether, either by getting out or disrupting the channel, there really wasn't much I could do. And if Brut-start Urgot couldn't keep up in the slugfest, I doubt many could at least at low level.

[NineThePuma]

I've decided that I need to learn a new champ.

How does one Jungle Fiddlesticks?

I know his mid is aggravating as crap too, especially since with a reliable gold income he can freely pick up, say, Sorcs, Abyssal, Liandry's and more.

[Eldariel]

If revive didn't exist, you would almost certainly see ten garrisons in every high level game.

I find that highly unlikely. Garrison isn't an ability you want to stack. You really don't need many Garrisons; 2-3 is the absolute maximum a team can effectively utilize since while powerful, it's very situational. It doesn't help you in the key jungle control, it's only for controlling the points and even there, it can only do so much (the most important function is probably interrupting captures from very far away while restoring some defense).

Basically, it's the sort of effect you absolutely want an access to but you don't need too many of.


Also, I'm going to nitpick with the "dominion roles are the same as SR" line. Junglers clearly don't exist in dominion, supports play quite differently, and AD carries are generally optional. If there's one thing I like about dominion, it's the fact that team compositions are far more dynamic than they are on SR.

You're right, my wording was off. I was referring to builds; basically every role aside from protectors builds the same as on SR with some item differences, though with S3 it's of course less clear what people build in general.

Team comp wise, I find the number of competitively viable comps about the same on both maps, though Dominion offers the chance for the "start carry bot into trade in a trade staller" strategies which lack an analogue on SR. Still, yeah, while many kinds of teams can achieve some degree of success, you do want carries to cover the lategame, you do want a mage and you want a bruiser. It's mostly the bot and the 4th slot that are relatively open, though the 4th slot is generally best off as somebody good at protecting carries (tank or support-type).

[ex cathedra]

1. Granted, yeah. It's hard to test the meta right now because it's so overpowered, so when you're thinking about builds it kind of just rules out every other item.

2. It also has a high chance of losing you poke superiority. It's a reasonable item for sure, but I tend to feel bad about building it early in top lane and frequently it's possible for the upsides to be dwarfed by the downsides. Ezreal, for example, I think should not build Tear.
Speaking of Ezreal, Iceborn Gauntlet has replaced Triforce in pretty much every build I've considered. Except for Jax, since he needs neither. The mystic shot interaction is legitimately dumb.

I've decided that I need to learn a new champ.

How does one Jungle Fiddlesticks?

I know his mid is aggravating as crap too, especially since with a reliable gold income he can freely pick up, say, Sorcs, Abyssal, Liandry's and more.
By level 9, have 5 ranks in Q and at least one each in E/W. You might want a second rank of W early for sustain and single target damage, but you generally max Q>E>W. Start Machete and one or two potions, build Hourglass and Sorcs and Abyssal and situationally Haunting Guise. Get the Spirit Stone, consider Spectral Wraith. Don't upgrade to Liandry's until your build is finished. The upgrade sucks on all but a few specific champs, i think. You're there for the MPen, not the proc.

[Eldariel]

Speaking of Ezreal, Iceborn Gauntlet has replaced Triforce in pretty much every build I've considered. Except for Jax, since he needs neither. The mystic shot interaction is legitimately dumb.

It always throws me off that you don't build it out of Phage since it does the same job. Now with Cleaver & Iceborn Ezreal suddenly has an easy time itemizing CDR, which is pretty cool. And Muramana is real good on him and turns him into a poke machine of death and synergises well with Iceborn. Corki doesn't mind these items either.

Only prob with Iceborn over TF is that TF goes much better into a crit build with AD, crit chance and attack speed in the mix, but the reliable slow is pretty awesome too. I'm kinda also liking Blade of the Ruined King on him. The active slow is pretty cool. Tho BT is still better, a'suppose. And that just leaves LW and you have a full build with every item making your pokes hurt like a truck. Btw, I think Arcane Shift fully procs Muramana.

[toasty]

My problem with the new uprgrades of Manamune/AA is that they take forever to stack on most heroes. You won't get a Muramuna on Yorick, for instance, till almost the 35 or 40 minute mark some games. Like, in all honesty, I'd rather build a chalice of harmony or just rush Iceborn Gauntlet.

I mean... if I want damage... I could just get a Black Cleaver. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

My problem with the new uprgrades of Manamune/AA is that they take forever to stack on most heroes. You won't get a Muramuna on Yorick, for instance, till almost the 35 or 40 minute mark some games. Like, in all honesty, I'd rather build a chalice of harmony or just rush Iceborn Gauntlet.

I mean... if I want damage... I could just get a Black Cleaver. :smallbiggrin:

Black Cleaver is totally ridiculous on AD Malzahar, btw. As is Muramana. Voidlings proc both. :smalltongue:

[toasty]

Black Cleaver is totally ridiculous on AD Malzahar, btw. As is Muramana. Voidlings proc both. :smalltongue:

Jungle AD Malz new meta. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, btw, I actually like that Talon and Pantheon are seeing play again. Its good to see AD Casters being used, because it makes for a more varied meta and lane setup, I really hope Riot doesn't just destroy Black Cleaver and we see these heroes AGAIN just fall to the wayside.

[Laudandus]

Jungle AD Malz new meta. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, btw, I actually like that Talon and Pantheon are seeing play again. Its good to see AD Casters being used, because it makes for a more varied meta and lane setup, I really hope Riot doesn't just destroy Black Cleaver and we see these heroes AGAIN just fall to the wayside.

The issue is that they aren't just seeing play, Talon and Pantheon are overwhelmingly stronger than the vast majority of champions right now. Talon's winrate is the highest of all champions, and as a player who has never tried pantheon much before yesterday he feels like the one of the strongest champions I've ever played, up there with release graves and diana.

Talon at least I think is a terrible design, too, so seeing him so overpowered is quite irritating, and while Pantheon is pretty awesome I don't think his current power level is at all reasonable.

That said, I suspect all these champions will be ok with a balanced Black Cleaver. They don't need the most meta-warping thing Riot has ever misbalanced, they just need some kind of itemization option.

[Eldariel]

The issue is that they aren't just seeing play, Talon and Pantheon are overwhelmingly stronger than the vast majority of champions right now. Talon's winrate is the highest of all champions, and as a player who has never tried pantheon much before yesterday he feels like the one of the strongest champions I've ever played, up there with release graves and diana.

Talon at least I think is a terrible design, too, so seeing him so overpowered is quite irritating, and while Pantheon is pretty awesome I don't think his current power level is at all reasonable.

That said, I suspect all these champions will be ok with a balanced Black Cleaver. They don't need the most meta-warping thing Riot has ever misbalanced, they just need some kind of itemization option.

I'm still saying, building AD caster itemization around enabling crit to work on AD skills would be a 100 times superior means than this ArPen focus.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Y'know, looking at Manamune's stats, I'm starting to wonder about its effectiveness on Twitch. I often end up leaving lane because I'm out of kill-juice, and this provides AD for mana, which all my abilities scale off, anyway.

Worth a look, you guys think?

(So far, Twitch Itemization in my head is 'zerker's greaves, Bloodthirster, Bloodthirster/Infinity Edge, Manamune, Last Whisper, Frozen Mallet/Phantom Dancer, but I haven't been looking at the new S3 items at all.)

[ex cathedra]

Muramana is a dumb item that doesn't make any sense. It's bad on the champions for which it was designed since is has no ArPen synergy and it's good on champions who should have zero incentive to build AD like Ryze. like what the **** is that item design. similarly, why the **** does tiamat still give health regen? it even builds into lifesteal now, so that stat's even more invalidated.

[Silverraptor]

Y'know, looking at Manamune's stats, I'm starting to wonder about its effectiveness on Twitch. I often end up leaving lane because I'm out of kill-juice, and this provides AD for mana, which all my abilities scale off, anyway.

Worth a look, you guys think?

(So far, Twitch Itemization in my head is 'zerker's greaves, Bloodthirster, Bloodthirster/Infinity Edge, Manamune, Last Whisper, Frozen Mallet/Phantom Dancer, but I haven't been looking at the new S3 items at all.)

No. You'll never get to Muramana. Twitch doesn't spam his abilities enough to get 750 bonus mana. Its a nice idea, but very unlikely and hard to do in practice. Sorry.

[Adumbration]

No. You'll never get to Muramana. Twitch doesn't spam his abilities enough to get 750 bonus mana. Its a nice idea, but very unlikely and hard to do in practice. Sorry.

Pretty much. If you want a nu-style Twitch itemization, rush Runaan's Hurricane into Black Cleaver and Bloodthirster. Early on Twitch scales well with attackspeed (true damage and ult) and later the passive is pretty beast mode.

[Joran]

I was thinking of dusting off Yorick for S3 and I took a look at Crystalline Flask and thought that was a great starting item for him. My major problem with Yorick is mana early on, but the mana + hp regen from Crystalline Flask should easy the transition nicely to farm up the Tear of the Goddess.

Am I crazy? Also, what other item should I buy since Crystalline Flask doesn't take up the entirety of the starting gold.

[PersonMan]

I find Boots + 1 HP + 2 mana pots is enough mana regen until first b.

Then again I run with enough masteries in Utility to get the +3/5 MRegen and full mana per level.

[LordShotGun]

OH GOD TEAR OF THE GODDESS IS SOOOOO GOOD ON SINGED NOW!!!

It charges so quickly too. Turn on your poison for a few seconds and it uses all it's stack charges. Turn it off, wait for it to recharge and do it all over again. I picked on up in a dominion game just on a whim and I had the sucker nearly 3/4ths charged in about 10 minutes.

Still not as good as RoA but now it's at least VIABLE.

[NineThePuma]

Manamune lets you proc it off of auto attacks.

[Adumbration]

I was thinking of dusting off Yorick for S3 and I took a look at Crystalline Flask and thought that was a great starting item for him. My major problem with Yorick is mana early on, but the mana + hp regen from Crystalline Flask should easy the transition nicely to farm up the Tear of the Goddess.

Am I crazy? Also, what other item should I buy since Crystalline Flask doesn't take up the entirety of the starting gold.

Crystalline flask+Faerie pendant+pots is positively crazy on Yorick. I really can't think of anything that could power through that kind of sustain, and what with the MS change you're not a sitting duck anymore either, really.

EDIT: Also builds into the Tear, which is convenient.

[PersonMan]

Zed is mega fun.

I keep getting into problems, though, that I am the honorary ADC of the team and that the enemy focuses me down once teamfights start. My ADCs just don't get into the whole "farming" thing, it seems...

[Qwertystop]

What would you think about a summoner spell that duplicates one skill of the champ you are using, on double cooldown?

[Tychris1]

Zed is mega fun.

I keep getting into problems, though, that I am the honorary ADC of the team and that the enemy focuses me down once teamfights start. My ADCs just don't get into the whole "farming" thing, it seems...

I know right? The ninja man is tons of fun. Almost every game I have one moment where thanks to his W I can shout out "THE JUUUKES!" as I leave my enemies with a weird shadow clone of myself instead of my easily killable 100 hp rear. Now if only I could actually win games with him and get my key bindings to work.....

[toasty]

I'm still saying, building AD caster itemization around enabling crit to work on AD skills would be a 100 times superior means than this ArPen focus.

...
Why is riot so dumb?


I was thinking of dusting off Yorick for S3 and I took a look at Crystalline Flask and thought that was a great starting item for him. My major problem with Yorick is mana early on, but the mana + hp regen from Crystalline Flask should easy the transition nicely to farm up the Tear of the Goddess.

Am I crazy? Also, what other item should I buy since Crystalline Flask doesn't take up the entirety of the starting gold.

A Yorick without boots early is a yorick that dies to every gank. you need either a Ward or boots because Yorick has no escapes and relies on surviving ganks by combining his passive with his Q+W combo (IE he's tanky so he can still outrun redbuff).


OH GOD TEAR OF THE GODDESS IS SOOOOO GOOD ON SINGED NOW!!!

It charges so quickly too. Turn on your poison for a few seconds and it uses all it's stack charges. Turn it off, wait for it to recharge and do it all over again. I picked on up in a dominion game just on a whim and I had the sucker nearly 3/4ths charged in about 10 minutes.

Still not as good as RoA but now it's at least VIABLE.

Not as good as RoA? I almost think that Cata/Tear on Singed might be a decent start. Actually, probably Cata/Revolver/Tear. The AA upgrade gives you blitz passive. That's pretty awesome on singed.

Oh, so I realized today that Liandry's torment is AMAZING on Chogath. Also: MidGath is alright. It seems like galio, but ... better? I'm not sure. I still think Galio is highly, highly underrated for his initiation and utility, but Chogath seems really beast middle. You don't even have to build him tanky, well, kinda.

[LordShotGun]

Not as good as RoA? I almost think that Cata/Tear on Singed might be a decent start. Actually, probably Cata/Revolver/Tear. The AA upgrade gives you blitz passive. That's pretty awesome on singed.


Well, to me Catalyst is still the first item you go for. Then tear, into RoA. Then you go tanky. Glacial Shroud, negatron cloak into abyssal. Flavor to taste from there and get the archangel staff/seraphim staff when tear is charged.

[toasty]

Well, to me Catalyst is still the first item you go for. Then tear, into RoA. Then you go tanky. Glacial Shroud, negatron cloak into abyssal. Flavor to taste from there and get the archangel staff/seraphim staff when tear is charged.

You probably almost want to rush RoA, or just get a Revolver for sustain. HOnestly, I haven't played Singed in FOREVER so i have no clue how his laning is if he even has any "good matchups" right now.

In other news: the worst kind of games are the ones where your Yorick doesn't build very tanky and calls Deathcap rushing Morde a "tank." :smallsigh: Luckily me and Ez did work so we carried.

Edit: Why do people think Destiny is worth watching? I've tuned into his stream twice to see a 1400 elo version of HSGG from a year ago with delusions of grandeur regarding his skill.

[NineThePuma]

I have a radical proposal.

What would happen if you made IE's passive no longer exist?

[Tychris1]

I have a radical proposal.

What would happen if you made IE's passive no longer exist?

I hang my gangster rat by his neck and go to the masculine arms of Darius.

[Ashen Lilies]

What would you think about a summoner spell that duplicates one skill of the champ you are using, on double cooldown?

LeBlanc cackles madly, and becomes even more of an insane burst/escape/CC machine than she is now. Nine second silence! Three dashes in succession! Triple stun!

Also, champs with game changing ultimates like Amumu become stupidly broken forever. Or Ashe. First arrow didn't quite finish them? Here's another! Also you're stunned now from the first one so you can't dodge. Double lasers on Lux. And the cooldown on her ultimate was stupidly short anyway, so a double cooldown isn't that much of an impediment. Double Soul Shackles. Double Invulnerability. Double Bromacia. Double Invulnerability.

[Qwertystop]

LeBlanc cackles madly, and becomes even more of an insane burst/escape/CC machine than she is now. Nine second silence! Three dashes in succession! Triple stun!

Also, champs with game changing ultimates like Amumu become stupidly broken forever.

Um...
Good point on short-cooldown bursters. Though I would like to point out that it would only copy one skill (chosen at champ select), not all.

Stuff like Amumu or Galio, though? Their ults are already on long cooldowns, and this would be double that.

What if there was a flat minimum, say slightly longer than Flash?

[Lix Lorn]

What would you think about a summoner spell that duplicates one skill of the champ you are using, on double cooldown?
So, a leblanc ult?
It might be cool. It'd be best if it didn't work on ults, though.

[Ashen Lilies]

LeBlanc's ultimate already copies her other spells, so just make the summoner spell copy that. Three copies of every spell, on demand.

[Godskook]

As a sometimes LeBlanc player, this interests me. Teach me, master.

Also, does Muramana's toggle work on Ryze's 'single' target abilities even during Desperate Power?

1.I want to make this *VERY* clear: I don't know if Muramana LeBlanc works. I just think it looks good on paper at first glance. Here's the theorycraft: LeBlanc has two major issues, wave clear/farming and late-game scaling. Rushing Manamune gives her AD with which to farm, is cheap, scales into a decent(or strong) psuedo-AP item on her late-game, and also gives her something to do when skills are on CD, making her less irrelevant after her burst combo. Her double also procs the toggle, which helps make her dangerous in close fights.

2.I know it definitely works on Ryze's Q normally, and based on the fact that Syndra's ult procs it once per sphere, I'm betting they used the spellvamp/Rylai's definition of what single-target means, and thus, Ryze's Q procs the toggle regardless, but the splash won't get the bonus damage.


Muramana is a dumb item that doesn't make any sense. It's bad on the champions for which it was designed since is has no ArPen synergy and it's good on champions who should have zero incentive to build AD like Ryze. like what the **** is that item design.

Who do you think Muramana was designed for? Ryze has been looking longingly at Manamune since...like forever(S1, at the very least), for the faster charge speed and tower clearing power. I think you're kidding yourself if you think Ryze wasn't ever intended to build it.

On the other hand, I do agree that its probably too strong right now, especially on Ryze, since he reasonably gets to about 4k mana, and thus gets 100 AD and 240 max-procs, on top of the 1k mana it came with, without any loss whatsoever to his general itemization plans.

[Lix Lorn]

Who do you think Muramana was designed for? Ryze has been looking longingly at Manamune since...like forever(S1, at the very least), for the faster charge speed and tower clearing power. I think you're kidding yourself if you think Ryze wasn't ever intended to build it.

On the other hand, I do agree that its probably too strong right now, especially on Ryze, since he reasonably gets to about 4k mana, and thus gets 100 AD and 240 max-procs, on top of the 1k mana it came with, without any loss whatsoever to his general itemization plans.
I've been doing this in customs with friends and vs bots. Thrown in a Zephyr too to let the attack speed give me some fun. It works pretty darn well, although it's rather slow to get going. (Although I hear Ryze is that anyway?)

[toasty]

Who do you think Muramana was designed for? Ryze has been looking longingly at Manamune since...like forever(S1, at the very least), for the faster charge speed and tower clearing power. I think you're kidding yourself if you think Ryze wasn't ever intended to build it.

On the other hand, I do agree that its probably too strong right now, especially on Ryze, since he reasonably gets to about 4k mana, and thus gets 100 AD and 240 max-procs, on top of the 1k mana it came with, without any loss whatsoever to his general itemization plans.

Umm... Ryze is supposed to be a mage, mages are supposed to do deal damage with their spells. Ryze's spells scale off of AP and Mana. No where in Ryze's kit does it even suggest you build AD.


Um...
Good point on short-cooldown bursters. Though I would like to point out that it would only copy one skill (chosen at champ select), not all.

Stuff like Amumu or Galio, though? Their ults are already on long cooldowns, and this would be double that.

What if there was a flat minimum, say slightly longer than Flash?

This item exists in DotA, its call refresher Orb. Only, instead of 1 spell, it refreshes all of your spells. It costs a ton of mana, but on heroes with similar ults to Amumu and Galio (specifically Treant Protector was the one I always built Refresher on) it was pretty hilarious because it was literally like 6 seconds of AoE CC.

[Qwertystop]

Umm... Ryze is supposed to be a mage, mages are supposed to do deal damage with their spells. Ryze's spells scale off of AP and Mana. No where in Ryze's kit does it even suggest you build AD.

What it does suggest is that you build mana, and Manamune/Muramana gives a lot of that which builds up faster than it does with an AA. Anyway, you can't pretend he never autos - he has to to take towers, at the very least. Plus, once one of the two Tear items has maxxed, its mana stops being from a Unique Passive so you can get the other with no conflict.

[Winthur]

What it does suggest is that you build mana, and Manamune/Muramana gives a lot of that which builds up faster than it does with an AA. Anyway, you can't pretend he never autos - he has to to take towers, at the very least.

Manamune has a cooldown just like Archangel Staff. If you are standing at a turret for over 3 seconds and there is no minion coming nearby to blast with your spell then there will be one soon enough.

That, and Archangel Staff also gives AP. Whose percentage, by the way, gives you a bonus to your damage against turrets... so that mages can take turrets as well.

So yes, I see the fact that Muramana apparently fits Ryze more than Seraph (disappointing given how tanky Ryze already is and how strong would the Mana Shield on him be) as a little bit off.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Um...
Good point on short-cooldown bursters. Though I would like to point out that it would only copy one skill (chosen at champ select), not all.

Stuff like Amumu or Galio, though? Their ults are already on long cooldowns, and this would be double that.

What if there was a flat minimum, say slightly longer than Flash?

Even more ridiculous on Galio/Mumu/Sona etc. Two Galio ults in a teamfight is all but an autowin avaliable every few minutes. And it's not just AoE CC ults. Double Yorick ghost, double Zilean revive, Alistar or Tryn with double ults? Non ults easily get stupid too: Diana's Shockwave-lite, blitzgrab, Jax's Counterstrike would all be completely unreasonable, I reckon. Actually, any hard CC at all as a Summoner's is already dodgy and gets real bad when only some champs can have it. It'd be like Flash, if Flash could only be selected by half the champ roster.

[Winthur]

What would you think about a summoner spell that duplicates one skill of the champ you are using, on double cooldown?

Darius Insurance! In case you whiffed your first dunk by 10 HP and didn't get a reset, call 555-DUNK right now.

[Nadevoc]

I was thinking of dusting off Yorick for S3 and I took a look at Crystalline Flask and thought that was a great starting item for him. My major problem with Yorick is mana early on, but the mana + hp regen from Crystalline Flask should easy the transition nicely to farm up the Tear of the Goddess.

Am I crazy? Also, what other item should I buy since Crystalline Flask doesn't take up the entirety of the starting gold.

I've done one Yorick game so far, and I started Crystalline and Faerie Charm. Does that leave enough for a ward? I don't remember. If so, I might've started with a ward, too. It worked out really well, though if you're not rushing a Tear (I guess not all Yoricks do?) then it probably isn't such a good start.


1.I want to make this *VERY* clear: I don't know if Muramana LeBlanc works. I just think it looks good on paper at first glance. Here's the theorycraft: LeBlanc has two major issues, wave clear/farming and late-game scaling. Rushing Manamune gives her AD with which to farm, is cheap, scales into a decent(or strong) psuedo-AP item on her late-game, and also gives her something to do when skills are on CD, making her less irrelevant after her burst combo. Her double also procs the toggle, which helps make her dangerous in close fights.

My issue with Muramana on LB is that it involves building a Tear relatively early instead of something that gives her a bit of extra oomph in the early/mid game, and Leblanc really wants to hit as hard and as fast as she can. Building an item that gives her no immediate pay-off and takes a long time to come to fruition seems counter to her style. Not saying it won't work, but I'm not convinced on it by any means.

[Forrestfire]

I find it extremely amusing that HotshotGG and Xpecial went out of their way to decline our invite to a King of the Scar game :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee26/ustaaz/prodeclinekosgame.png

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Speaking of dunks, are there enough dunks in the League for Team Dunkmasters to be a thing on SR?

[Winthur]

Speaking of dunks, are there enough dunks in the League for Team Dunkmasters to be a thing on SR?

Darius Barkley top, mid lane Scottie Pantheon, bot lane Michael Jarvan/Alistar Malone, jungle MuggsYi Bogues*. For an AP Yi in mid lane to get more magic damage, the Chicago Bull goes to jungle, Pantheon joins Jarvan, and Yi goes mid. Come on and slam, and welcome to the jam.

*His model is the shortest on the team too.

I'm afraid, Lakers fans, that unfortunately Shacouille O'Neal doesn't really fit the bill.

[Math_Mage]

It always throws me off that you don't build it out of Phage since it does the same job. Now with Cleaver & Iceborn Ezreal suddenly has an easy time itemizing CDR, which is pretty cool. And Muramana is real good on him and turns him into a poke machine of death and synergises well with Iceborn. Corki doesn't mind these items either.

Only prob with Iceborn over TF is that TF goes much better into a crit build with AD, crit chance and attack speed in the mix, but the reliable slow is pretty awesome too. I'm kinda also liking Blade of the Ruined King on him. The active slow is pretty cool. Tho BT is still better, a'suppose. And that just leaves LW and you have a full build with every item making your pokes hurt like a truck. Btw, I think Arcane Shift fully procs Muramana.

My problem with Muramana on Ezreal...is probably that I don't farm well enough, but I'm honestly worried about becoming damage-irrelevant mid-game if I build Tear/Manamune. Buying BC and Gauntlet already puts me behind the damage curve, though the kiting is absurd. That's Bloodthirster + Phantom Dancer on a different AD. Manamune on top? That's BT+PD+LW, which is the point where carries like Graves start doing the majority of their team's damage. Can you get that kind of output from BC, Gauntlet, Muramana? Plus Vamp Scepter isn't the easy diversion it was before--it costs more than Tear--so buying it only to hold for BotRK is yet more delay on core damage output. Maybe it's because I never played AP Ezreal when it was good, but I have trouble seeing Ez do well without a crit engine.

[Sallera]

How would one go about building a tanky Amumu these days (keeping in mind that I'm only level 13, so I've pretty much just been learning as I go)? I've been starting Cloth+5, then going into Banshee's and Frozen Heart (switching the order if there's a lot of physical on the other side), then Aegis. None of my games have really lasted long enough to go past that, although I was thinking Sunfire and/or Hextech. Is there a more efficient way to do that? I've been seeing here (and noticing a bit in games) that resistance in general isn't necessarily as effective any more, but I'm not sure how one might counteract that.

In terms of playstyle, I've mostly been very cautious, harassing my lane opponents at every opportunity, but never pursuing until they get overconfident. Late-game's pretty much been about initiating teamfights with the ult and baiting people outside of them.

[knightMARE]

Back in the day of playing DoTA knock-offs, I used to enjoy using the notRefresher orb on their versions Karthus Ult. Might not have the team fight potential that Amumu, Sona, Galio ults have, but would hurt pretty bad

[Joran]

Darius Barkley top, mid lane Scottie Pantheon, bot lane Michael Jarvan/Alistar Malone, jungle MuggsYi Bogues*. For an AP Yi in mid lane to get more magic damage, the Chicago Bull goes to jungle, Pantheon joins Jarvan, and Yi goes mid. Come on and slam, and welcome to the jam.

*His model is the shortest on the team too.

I'm afraid, Lakers fans, that unfortunately Shacouille O'Neal doesn't really fit the bill.

Is Alistar a dunk master? Yi was the originator, I've seen Darius, Jarvan referenced as dunking, and I could see Pantheon since he has a gapcloser that has him jump.

Isn't Fiora's R essentially Alpha Strike, so that could count?

[Qwertystop]

Manamune has a cooldown just like Archangel Staff. If you are standing at a turret for over 3 seconds and there is no minion coming nearby to blast with your spell then there will be one soon enough.

That, and Archangel Staff also gives AP. Whose percentage, by the way, gives you a bonus to your damage against turrets... so that mages can take turrets as well.

So yes, I see the fact that Muramana apparently fits Ryze more than Seraph (disappointing given how tanky Ryze already is and how strong would the Mana Shield on him be) as a little bit off.

Didn't mean "better", I meant "in addition to". And how do you get AP to damage? Does Ryze typically build Lichbane or go for the Spellblade mastery?

[Winthur]

Is Alistar a dunk master? Yi was the originator, I've seen Darius, Jarvan referenced as dunking, and I could see Pantheon since he has a gapcloser that has him jump.

He's amazing at setting up alley-oops. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJqG5Mqv_qQ) Also, the W+Q combo, really.


Didn't mean "better", I meant "in addition to". And how do you get AP to damage? Does Ryze typically build Lichbane or go for the Spellblade mastery?

Damage to a turret is based on your base attack damage plus the higher of your bonus attack damage or 40% of your ability power. It is not affected by any kind of armor penetration.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, with the new penetration system I'm pretty sure LeBlanc is a monster. Note, AD doesn't help with her problem; her prob is wave clear, not farming.

She needs a way to easily AOE waves down to avoid other midlaner just afkpushing and avoiding engagement; this is how Karthus, Anivia, Lux, etc. lane vs. her midgame at 0 risk. She has to lasthit under tower (or tank the minion wave) or burn her W and ult to clear it, either way removing much of her roam capability and threat.


But once you get later with LeB, now that MR is effectively useless, you can just one-shot everybody with under 3k hp.


How would one go about building a tanky Amumu these days (keeping in mind that I'm only level 13, so I've pretty much just been learning as I go)? I've been starting Cloth+5, then going into Banshee's and Frozen Heart (switching the order if there's a lot of physical on the other side), then Aegis. None of my games have really lasted long enough to go past that, although I was thinking Sunfire and/or Hextech. Is there a more efficient way to do that? I've been seeing here (and noticing a bit in games) that resistance in general isn't necessarily as effective any more, but I'm not sure how one might counteract that.

In terms of playstyle, I've mostly been very cautious, harassing my lane opponents at every opportunity, but never pursuing until they get overconfident. Late-game's pretty much been about initiating teamfights with the ult and baiting people outside of them.

Uh, well, in the new jungle you'd probably be better off with Hunter's Machete + 5 Pots. Note, I'm not sure if you've played with the latest patch yet; everything changed with regards to jungle, jungle itemization and all that.

I like to play Jungle Amumu as a tanky mage sorta thing; I rush Philosopher's Stone and Kage's Lucky Pick for early stats and mana, and then build Liandry's Torment + Rylai's for delicious amounts of damage and some survivability and follow that up with Zhonya's and an assortment of other tanky AP items (Iceborn Gauntlets, Unholy Grail, Abyssal Scepter, etc.) and Void/Deathcap as makes sense.


The more traditional and economical option is going with Aegis/Sunfire Cape/Abyssal/etc. Basically, stack up on tankiness and auras. This would also use Spirit of the Ancient Golem most likely, and often makes use of Shurelya's Reverie for better initiation ability. Flash cooldown reduction boots would also probably be handy for lategame so you have flash and ult available more consistently.

[Godskook]

But once you get later with LeB, now that MR is effectively useless, you can just one-shot everybody with under 3k hp.

Fun fact: If you can exceed 200 MR after shred, M-Pen is strictly worse in S3 than it was in S2 against you. Well, assuming the caster has Sorc/Torment/Void, relevant mastery, and M-Pen Marks, but not Quints. And considering the Quints are strictly worse early game when it matters most, I doubt people are going to use them.

[Renegade Paladin]

At this point, I feel obligated to point out that this thread requires a glossary. :smallannoyed:

[Forrestfire]

That would probably be useful :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

In fact, every source on the game does, come to mention it. Is there some sort of contractual obligation to not speak English when talking about League of Legends? :smalltongue: