We are the Fossen and we will not be taken advantage of! [3.5 race, PEACH]

[Omnicrat]

FOSSEN

Never scam Fossen. They may be easy marks if you can get one alone, but once it meets up with its buddies they'll figure out just how you ripped it off and they'll be pissed about it.- Jason Salazar, Rouge and Criminal, giving advice to his protege.

Fossen are a race apart. They are individually mentally lacking, but as a group can be more intelligent than most humans. They are constantly active, due to their lack of a need to sleep, and build vast underground hive-cities.
Personality: As individuals or in very small groups, Fossen are friendly, simple, quick to trust, and easily manipulated. As their numbers grow, however they become more intelligent, cold, and cynical. It would not be amiss to equate an individual Fossen's personality to that of a dog, but a group of Fossen's personality would be closer to a reptile. Fossen often seek out people they realize had manipulated them with their group and demand some form of compensation, threatening the use of force they able and are more than willing to execute.
Fossen refer to themselves as an individual (I,me, mine) if both their personal intelligence and wisdom are greater than the bonus granted by their hivemind, and as a group (we, us, ours) if their bonus intelligence or wisdom is greater than their personal intelligence or wisdom. Even though Fossen will begin to refert to themselves as a group, they never truly lose their individuality
Physical Description: Fossen are quite short compared to humans, standing between 3'11” and 4'2”. Fossen look almost exactly like scaled down muscular humans, except for a few important differences. They have somewhat leathery skin which ranges in color from chalk to dark grey. All Fossen are completely hairless. To non-Fossen, it is almost impossible to distinguish between of two Fossen of similar skin tone and hight. Fossen have no gender, and are believed to reproduce asexually.
Relations: As with their personalities, how Fossen feel about other races is determined by how many of them there are. Individuals and small groups are very friendly to the common races, but timid, fearful, or even hateful to the more monstrous races. As the size of a Fossen group grows, they become more distant to the common races, especially any that have taken advantage of them. They also lose their prejudice against the monsterous races, to the point of a small degree of favoritism out of guilt.
Alignment: Most Fossen are Lawful, obeying the stuttered society of a hive-city. Other than this, Fossen have no alignment tenancies, and are good as often as they are neutral or evil. There are some communities of neutral or even chaotic Fossen, but this increase in personal freedom over duty understandably keeps these communities small. It is rare for a group of Fossen of any size to be composed of Fossen with different alignments. If a Fossen has an alignment different from that of his hive-city or other community, it will almost always leave its home in search of a Fossen community which matches its alignment.
Lands: Aside from relatively small communities at the surface of a hive-city, all Fossen lands are subterranean, living in vast cave networks similar to an ant colony. Their cities grow until they reach a region where they need to battle constantly to maintain their border or simply run into a more diplomatic communities borders. Fossen hive-cities can be found at any depthed in any location on the planet.
Religion: Fossen do not have a traditional religion. Rather than worshiping a deity or even a philosophy, the Fossen worship their own hivemind. The worship of the hivemind is a desire to better the Fossen as a whole through intelligent thought and greater reasoning. Temples of the Hivemind are designed in such a way as to fit the most Fossen into the least space possible, thereby maximizing the benefits of the hivemind. The domains of the Hivemind are City, Community, Knowledge, and Protection. Its favored weapon is the Bastard Sword. The hivemind does not acctually [i]have[i/] this favored weapon, those domains, or any beliefs at all, as it is not a true diety, but it is next to impossible to find a Fossen who would dispute what worship of the hivemind means.
Language: The Fossen have no language of their own, instead conveying concepts to one another via their telepathy. Fossen do have the ability to learn and even speak any language a human could, as well as the telepathic languages some species have developed. Most Fossen communicate with other races via a telepathic version of common, or another appropriate language, but will speak if required to.
Names: Just as they do not have a language, the Fossen do not have names. Each Fossen has a distinct, totally uniqu, and completely untranslatable mental signature that other Fossen use to itentify specific individuals. If they need to interact with non-Fossen, they create a name for themselves. Their first name can be different every time they need one, or it could remain consistant throughout their lives. A first name can be anything; a concept the Fossen likes (Liberty, Justice, Prosperity, Determination), his profession (Smith, Cobbler, Baker), or a name from another culture (John, Lia, Cora). A last name is always the common name of the Fossen community he belongs to. If the Fossen belongs to no community, it has no last name.
Adventurers: Fossen primarily adventure for one of two reasons; they either are searching for a community to join, or they are individually mentally advanced enough to survive without a near-constant hive-mind. There is the occasional small band of chaotic Fossen with a desire to see the world for themselves.

+2 strength, -4 intelligence, -4 wisdom
Humanoid
Medium Size
Base land speed 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Light sensitivity
Telepathy 100ft
Sleepless Mind: While Fossen do not require sleep, they are still capable of it. Thus, all Fossen are still subject to both magical and mundane sleep effects.
Hivemind: All Fossen within range any number of other Fossen's telepathy are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one within range is not flat-footed, none are. No Fossen within range is considered flanked unless all are, unless no Fossen within Range can perceive the combatants other than Fossen who would be flanked. Additionally, For each group of Fossen in range of a separate Fossen's telepathy representing the first and ever subsequent stage of the Fibonacci Sequence, the Fossen gains 1 temporary point of intelligence and 1 wisdom. For example, if three Fossen are within one another's range, each one gets two points of temporary intelligence and wisdom (1,1). If eight Fossen are within one another's range, each one gets 4 points of temporary intelligence and wisdom (1,1,2,3). If nine Fossen are within one another's range, they still only each get 4 points of temporary intelligence and wisdom, because the next stage of the Fibonacci Sequence (5) has not been met.
Base Languages: Any one, usually common Bonus Languages: Any non-secret
Favored Class: Fighter


Vital Statistics

Random starting ages
AdultSimpleModerateComplex
Fossen101d31d62d6
Aging Effects
Mid AgeOldVenerableMax Age
Fossen20304010d%

Height
base heightheight modbase weightweight mod
Fossen3'10”+1d4”70lbs.x1d4

[ShadowFireLance]

Looks pretty good, Only problem I see is a party of Fossen wizards getting loads of spells...Now, say you took leadership....Yeah, Pretty brakeable, But Nice idea

[Omnicrat]

Looks pretty good, Only problem I see is a party of Fossen wizards getting loads of spells...Now, say you took leadership....Yeah, Pretty brakeable, But Nice idea

Even with leadership, you still need your Fossen grunts to be within 100ft. I can see that going very poorly for the Wizard (or more specifically, his followers).

[ShadowFireLance]

100 ft is not really that close, I can group crazy amounts within 100ft.
For instance, I have a level 15 Fossen wizard, with a flying carpet, and a few levitating things.
I stack them all above me, and have crazy amounts around me.
Judgeing by that...(Estimate) About 50 or so can crowad around me, and with that, 50+ Int is kind of a Huge bounes at level 15, saying 18, you now have a crapload of bounes spells.

[Omnicrat]

100 ft is not really that close, I can group crazy amounts within 100ft.
For instance, I have a level 15 Fossen wizard, with a flying carpet, and a few levitating things.
I stack them all above me, and have crazy amounts around me.
Judgeing by that...(Estimate) About 50 or so can crowad around me, and with that, 50+ Int is kind of a Huge bounes at level 15, saying 18, you now have a crapload of bounes spells.

But its not +50 int. The progression is non-linear. 50 Fossen get you +7 int (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, r17). Take into account the -4 you start with, and its only +3. Also, bad guys probably would go out of their way to kill the wizards Fossen followers, even if its not perfectly convenient for them.

[ShadowFireLance]

Ah, i misread it then, well, that was fairly smart, well done.

[Arkhaic]

This is probably the first or second homebrew race that I really like. This does let them qualify for Mindsight (LoM) at level one, but that isn't really too bad. Makes me want to create a racial paragon class for it, actually. Also, some of the shorter Fossen should be small size rather than medium.


Fossen Paragon
(fluff pending)
Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills: The Fossen Paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Tumble (Dex), Spot (Wis), Listen (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points: 4+Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Fossen Paragon is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium and light.)

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Reflex | Will | Special | Fighter Bonus Feats
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Many Eyes, Many Ears | +1 Fighter Level
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Improved Telepathy (+30 feet) | +1 Fighter Level
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Improved Hivemind | +1 Fighter Level[/table]

Class Features

Many Eyes, Many Ears: A Fossen Paragon gains a bonus to spot and listen checks equal to the number of sighted and non-deaf Fossen within range of its hive mind ability. This bonus may not exceed the paragon's ECL.

Fighter Bonus Feats:Each level in the Fossen Paragon class counts as a level in fighter when determining bonus feats. This has no effect if the paragon has no levels in fighter.

Improved Telepathy: A Fossen Paragon gains a 30 ft. bonus to their telepathy. They also gain the Mindsight feat if they do not already possess it.

Improved Hivemind: For the purposes of determining the bonus the paragon receives to intelligence and wisdom, normal Fossen count as 1.5 Fossen. The Fossen Paragon counts as 2 Fossen when determining the bonus other Fossen get.

[Omnicrat]

This is probably the first or second homebrew race that I really like. This does let them qualify for Mindsight (LoM) at level one, but that isn't really too bad. Makes me want to create a racial paragon class for it, actually. 1) Also, some of the shorter Fossen should be small size rather than medium.


Fossen Paragon
(fluff pending)
Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills: The Fossen Paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Tumble (Dex), Spot (Wis), Listen (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points: 4+Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Fossen Paragon is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium and light.)

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Reflex | Will | Special | Fighter Bonus Feats
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Many Eyes, Many Ears | +1 Fighter Level
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Improved Telepathy (+30 feet) | +1 Fighter Level
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Improved Hivemind | +1 Fighter Level[/table]

Class Features

2) Many Eyes, Many Ears: A Fossen Paragon gains a bonus to spot and listen checks equal to the number of sighted and non-deaf Fossen within range of its hive mind ability. This bonus may not exceed the paragon's ECL.

Fighter Bonus Feats:Each level in the Fossen Paragon class counts as a level in fighter when determining bonus feats. This has no effect if the paragon has no levels in fighter.

Improved Telepathy: A Fossen Paragon gains a 30 ft. bonus to their telepathy. 3) They also gain the Mindsight feat if they do not already possess it.

Improved Hivemind: For the purposes of determining the bonus the paragon receives to intelligence and wisdom, normal Fossen count as 1.5 Fossen. 4) The Fossen Paragon counts as 2 Fossen when determining the bonus other Fossen get.

Numbered your stuff for my post, hope you don't mind.

I like this a lot. 1) Are you sure? I thought they were just this side of medium. How much taller do the shortest need to be? 2) I think Many Eyes, Many Ears is better using a Fibonacci progression, as the natural ability. 3) What does that feat do? 4) What do other paragons count as? 3 Fossen?

The only real problem I see is this: What Fossen would not take all levels in its paragon class?

[Arkhaic]

1: Medium starts at 4'. While a bit nitpicky, 3'11" falls into small territory. I actually think it would be nice to have the option within a race, but that's just me.
2: How about triangular numbers 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210 or limiting the bonus to half rather than full ECL? (Even with full ECL it can't ever do more than add the maximum skill ranks for that level -4 to the checks. Level 10 to get a +10 bonus, etc.) Maybe an altered Fibonacci progression would work.
3: Mindsight can pinpoint the location of any non-mindless being and tells the type and intelligence score. It doesn't remove miss chances, but screws up anything trying to hide. It's the only sense not affected by the darkstalker feat (released in the same book, so presumably deliberate.) It's like telepathic radar, really.
4: They would count as 2 Fossen. I'll clarify that.


What Fossen would not take all levels in its paragon class?
I'm not too sure how to deal with this one. Do you think I should turn the saves and/or BAB down a bit? Maybe remove the mindsight feat (I think I might have said this already, but mindsight is very disruptive in campaigns where the DM likes invisible or hidden NPCs spying on the party. It also screws up ambushes.)?

[Omnicrat]

1: Medium starts at 4'. While a bit nitpicky, 3'11" falls into small territory. I actually think it would be nice to have the option within a race, but that's just me.
2: How about triangular numbers 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210 or limiting the bonus to half rather than full ECL? (Even with full ECL it can't ever do more than add the maximum skill ranks for that level -4 to the checks. Level 10 to get a +10 bonus, etc.) Maybe an altered Fibonacci progression would work.
3: Mindsight can pinpoint the location of any non-mindless being and tells the type and intelligence score. It doesn't remove miss chances, but screws up anything trying to hide. It's the only sense not affected by the darkstalker feat (released in the same book, so presumably deliberate.) It's like telepathic radar, really.
4: They would count as 2 Fossen. I'll clarify that.


5: I'm not too sure how to deal with this one. Do you think I should turn the saves and/or BAB down a bit? Maybe remove the mindsight feat (I think I might have said this already, but mindsight is very disruptive in campaigns where the DM likes invisible or hidden NPCs spying on the party. It also screws up ambushes.)?


1) Dwarf women can be 3'9", so don't know where you got 4' from. Now that I look back and see dwarf women can be 3'9", I Actually want to make the Fossen shorter. Might do that after this post.

2) I just think that, thematically, all abilities tied into the Fossen Hivemind should use the same progression, and I personally like Fibonacci progression.

3) Hm... makes Fossen WAY too good as advanced scouts or guards. Maybe an alternate version of the feat that gives you a mental spot check any time an intelligent being enters your telepathy range? Success on that check allows for three special checks to see specific mental attributes (intelligence, wisdom, and charisma) the creature has? The special checks would use your ability modifiers plus a d20 roll. If you roll their ability score or higher, you know it. The spot check could be DC30 - int score, making more intelligent creatures easier to "spot" but harder to determine the exact intelligence of.

4) Feels like they should count as 3 to other paragons to me, but that might be pushing it. Probably best to keep them as two to everyone.

5) Thats the problem. Thematically, its perfect. It takes what it is to be Fossen and runs with it. That just happens to be really, REALLY good, and I have no idea how you tone that down...

[Lyndworm]

1) Dwarf women can be 3'9", so don't know where you got 4' from. Now that I look back and see dwarf women can be 3'9", I Actually want to make the Fossen shorter. Might do that after this post.
I forget exactly where it's printed, but Small creatures are 2-4ft/8-60lbs and Medium creatures are 4-8ft/60-500lbs (Large creatures are 8-16ft/500-4,000lbs). However, it's specifically stated that these values are typical, but some exceptions exist.


3) Hm... makes Fossen WAY too good as advanced scouts or guards. Maybe an alternate version of the spell that gives you a mental spot check any time an intelligent being enters your telepathy range? Success on that check allows for three special checks to see specific mental attributes (intelligence, wisdom, and charisma) the creature has? The special checks would use your ability modifiers plus a d20 roll. If you roll their ability score or higher, you know it. The spot check could be DC30 - int score, making more intelligent creatures easier to "spot" but harder to determine the exact intelligence of.
I'm afraid that Mindsight is a feat, not a spell. That's one reason that it's so very powerful; it's always active. You could change the feat to operate as you describe, but that sounds extremely complicated, or at least time-consuming, in play.


5) Thats the problem. Thematically, its perfect. It takes what it is to be Fossen and runs with it. That just happens to be really, REALLY good, and I have no idea how you tone that down...
I would suggest turning it into a Prestige class, then. Racial PrCs are pretty well established, and I feel this is well suited to the concept.

[Omnicrat]

1) I forget exactly where it's printed, but Small creatures are 2-4ft/8-60lbs and Medium creatures are 4-8ft/60-500lbs (Large creatures are 8-16ft/500-4,000lbs). However, it's specifically stated that these values are typical, but some exceptions exist.


3) I'm afraid that Mindsight is a feat, not a spell. That's one reason that it's so very powerful; it's always active. You could change the feat to operate as you describe, but that sounds extremely complicated, or at least time-consuming, in play.


5) I would suggest turning it into a Prestige class, then. Racial PrCs are pretty well established, and I feel this is well suited to the concept.

1) In that case, the Fossen as-are should be good as medium creatures, I think.

3) Saying spell instead of feat was a typo. Also, it looks more complicated than it is. The DC for the spot check is easily determined by the DM, and the other three checks are optional, and probably won't even be made in most cases.

5) That's probably for the best... but what would take up the other 2-7 levels? Classes are not really my forte with regard to homebrew.

[Lyndworm]

That's probably for the best... but what would take up the other 2-7 levels? Classes are not really my forte with regard to homebrew.
I'm not sure that I'm experienced/talented enough to claim a forte, but I'll give it a shot...

Prerequisites are up to you.
The Fossen Taskmaster
d8 Hit Die
{table=head]
Level |
BAB |
Fort |
Ref |
Will |
Special

1st | +1 | +3 | +0 | +2 | Improved Hivemind, Improved Telepathy

2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Bonus Feat

3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Greater Hivemind

4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Bonus Feat

5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Master Hivemind[/table]
Skills: 4 + Int modifier.
Skill List: Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Tumble (Dex), Spot (Wis), Listen (Wis), and Swim (Str).


Fossen Taskmaster Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Fossen taskmasters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.


Improved Hivemind:
A fossen taskmaster gains a bonus on all Listen and Spot checks equal to the Intelligence and Wisdom bonus ranted by its hivemind ability.


Improved Telepathy:
A fossen taskmaster increases the range of its telepathy ability by 10ft per level, to a total of 150ft at 5th level.


Bonus Feats:
At 2nd level, and again at 4th level, a fossen taskmaster gains a bonus feat from the list of feats available to fighters. This is in addition to the feats that a character of any class normally gets from advancing levels. The character must still meet any prerequisites for these bonus feats, including levels of fighter and Base Attack Bonus minimums.


Greater Hivemind:
For the purposes of determining the bonus the fossen taskmaster receives to its Intelligence and Wisdom scores from its hivemind ability, normal Fossen are considered 1.5 fossen.

For the purposes of determining the bonus the fossen taskmaster grants to the Intelligence and Wisdom scores of other fossen with its hivemind ability, the fossen taskmaster is considered 2 fossen.


Master Hivemind:
For the purposes of determining the bonus the fossen taskmaster recieves to its Intelligence and Wisdom scores from its hivemind ability, non-fossen creatures with an Intelligence score of at least 3 are considered .5 fossen. Additionally, telepathic non-fossen creatures with an Intelligence score of at least 3 are considered 1 fossen, provided the fossen taskmaster is within range of their telepathy.

[Omnicrat]

I think I'm going to change their favored class to psychic warrior and create racial substitution levels for them... maybe just give them fighter racial substitution levels...

The contributions made to by both Lyndworm and Arkhaic have been great, and I would like to work out a version of each class.

edit: Yeah, I'm leaving it fighter, but adding substitution levels. Psychic Warrior is a bit too psionic, I think. Tomorrow. I'm way to tired for that now.

[Arkhaic]

I still see the problem as them being able to pick up mindsight at level 1. A permanent mindsight with any non-mindless creature within 100 feet might be better, actually. I'm starting to get an idea for a couple of base classes and bloodlines. I'll start on them later.

[Omnicrat]

I still see the problem as them being able to pick up mindsight at level 1. A permanent mindsight with any non-mindless creature within 100 feet might be better, actually. I'm starting to get an idea for a couple of base classes and bloodlines. I'll start on them later.

Mindsight as you described it seems way too OP. I like my version better, and don't think that other version should be allowed in campaigns with Fossen in them. Mindsight makes stealth literally impossible. That's bad for the dm and players.

edit: for the racial substitution levels, can I give a perminante change to all class skills if level x is taken as a substitution level?

[Arkhaic]

I'm not sure about the precedents for that, but this is homebrew. As for mindsight, any sort of alternate sense breaks stealth. I would just say that the telepathy doesn't qualify a Fossen for mindsight until level 5 (same level a Psion(Telepath) with ACF qualifies) and leave it at that.

Your version of mindsight is like what tremor/life(arguably)/blind sense, blindsight and scent are treated as...but only if the stealthy character has the Darkstalker feat. It would be easy to houserule that mindsight is affected by darkstalker (Which happens to be easier to get than any sort of special senses as a general feat without prerequisites.)

I meant mind link earlier, by the way. Changing the telepathy to a 100 ft. mindlink (stops working on creatures outside of range) and MEME to an equivalent senselink would stop all the mindsight silliness. How about this text for MEME:
Many Eyes, Many Ears: A Fossen Paragon may gain an effect similar to the psionic power Sense Link with any willing Fossen within range of their telepathy. They may make this connection with multiple Fossen at the same time, but each additional Fossen adds 2.5 to the concentration DC. Autohypnosis may be substituted for concentration on this check. (DC formula: 2.5*(number of Fossen)+7.5)

[Omnicrat]

1) I'm not sure about the precedents for that, but this is homebrew.

2) As for mindsight, any sort of alternate sense breaks stealth. I would just say that the telepathy doesn't qualify a Fossen for mindsight until level 5 (same level a Psion(Telepath) with ACF qualifies) and leave it at that.

3) Your version of mindsight is like what tremor/life(arguably)/blind sense, blindsight and scent are treated as...but only if the stealthy character has the Darkstalker feat. It would be easy to houserule that mindsight is affected by darkstalker (Which happens to be easier to get than any sort of special senses as a general feat without prerequisites.)

4) I meant mind link earlier, by the way. Changing the telepathy to a 100 ft. mindlink (stops working on creatures outside of range) and 5) MEME to an equivalent senselink would stop all the mindsight silliness. How about this text for MEME:
Many Eyes, Many Ears: A Fossen Paragon may gain an effect similar to the psionic power Sense Link with any willing Fossen within range of their telepathy. They may make this connection with multiple Fossen at the same time, but each additional Fossen adds 2.5 to the concentration DC. Autohypnosis may be substituted for concentration on this check. (DC formula: 2.5*(number of Fossen)+7.5)

1) I don't think some different class skills are OP or anything...

2) Maybe... or maybe have two feats, my lesser mindsight as a prerequisite to the other, normal one? Add a level restriction on it for good measure?

3) I think all those senses should operate as my version, but thats a pretty big houserule.

4) I guess that works, but at that point we're basically creating psudo-telepathy for the purpose of not qualifying for a feat, when the feat could simply be altered. Unless it had some other benefit I was missing?

5) And here in lies the problem. Mechanically, this does seem to work better. Thematically, I prefer your first version.

[Arkhaic]

1) Me neither, I just didn't think there was precedent. Some alternate class features do that though.

2) That seems a bit feat taxy, but it might be a good way of restricting it. The level requirement should start at 5 at the very least. Might want to say that Mind Blank also cancels it out.

3) Yeah. There's already a single feat that does this to the rest of them, and they usually require more expenditure of resources to obtain than a general feat.

4) Not really. Maybe a skill-based pseudo-mindsight would work? (Mindsight checks to notice minds, higher intelligence lowers DC, opposed by a mental defense skill check?)

5) I actually like the sense link better. The idea for the original MEME was that it pulled parts of sensory data from all the other Fossen in the area and granted bonuses accordingly. This still does that, but now you can make spot and listen checks as all the foss...wait a minute, that doesn't work. Maybe if the concentration was removed...

[Omnicrat]

1) Me neither, I just didn't think there was precedent. Some alternate class features do that though.

2) That seems a bit feat taxy, but it might be a good way of restricting it. The level requirement should start at 5 at the very least. Might want to say that Mind Blank also cancels it out.

3) Yeah. There's already a single feat that does this to the rest of them, and they usually require more expenditure of resources to obtain than a general feat.

4) Not really. Maybe a skill-based pseudo-mindsight would work? (Mindsight checks to notice minds, higher intelligence lowers DC, opposed by a mental defense skill check?)

5) I actually like the sense link better. The idea for the original MEME was that it pulled parts of sensory data from all the other Fossen in the area and granted bonuses accordingly. This still does that, but now you can make spot and listen checks as all the foss...wait a minute, that doesn't work. Maybe if the concentration was removed...

2) I don't think its really feat taxy. Its a less effective version of a power, than a more effective version of the same power.

4) I'm not certain I follow. Are you talking about mindlink, as I was, or sense link?

5) Ah, I viewed it as the hivemind was helping to process the sensory data of each individual, giving them effectively better perception. The same way the hivemind works to increase the intelligence and wisdom of Fossen.

[Arkhaic]

Okay, here are my ideas on the telepathy/mindsight problem:

Make feat/feat chain available at level 5
Have a Mindsight skill akin to listen or spot, ranks above 10 increase telepathy range, make it a check opposed to hide checks. Range is 10 ft./level, starts increasing telepathy range when it gets past 10 ranks
Ignore it-Bad idea, but still an option.


MEME Stuff:Ah, I see now. My thought was that the Paragon could tap into the sensory data and used it to create a more accurate picture of the area, granting the aforementioned spot bonuses. Your idea makes sense too. What about granting the bonuses to spot in a group of ten or more Fossen, and using senselink in smaller groups? (Presumably the hivemind wouldn't be strong enough to grant the same bonuses in groups of less than 10). And change it to a Fibonacci progression.

I forget, have you checked out Lix Lorn's Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253053) class? These seem like swarmlings without a swarmlord to me.

[Omnicrat]

1) Okay, here are my ideas on the telepathy/mindsight problem:

Make feat/feat chain available at level 5
Have a Mindsight skill akin to listen or spot, ranks above 10 increase telepathy range, make it a check opposed to hide checks. Range is 10 ft./level, starts increasing telepathy range when it gets past 10 ranks
Ignore it-Bad idea, but still an option.


2) MEME Stuff:Ah, I see now. My thought was that the Paragon could tap into the sensory data and used it to create a more accurate picture of the area, granting the aforementioned spot bonuses. Your idea makes sense too. What about granting the bonuses to spot in a group of ten or more Fossen, and using senselink in smaller groups? (Presumably the hivemind wouldn't be strong enough to grant the same bonuses in groups of less than 10). And change it to a Fibonacci progression.

3) I forget, have you checked out Lix Lorn's Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253053) class? These seem like swarmlings without a swarmlord to me.

1) I have a fourth idea, because of your second. Use perception as Pathfinder, and additional senses (scent, mindsense, tremorsens, ect) each grant a new way you can use perception. Failure of a perception check by 10 or less causes you to know there is something/someone you've missed with sense x, whichever makes the most sense at the time for detection. Hm... Doesn't seem quite right, but I think this is the right track.

2) Larger groups loosing capability doesn't really make sense, I think. Also, I think groups of 8 or more would be better than 10 or more. Using Fibonacci progression, a group of 8 total (1 + 7 others) gives a bonus of +4 (1,1,2,3), fully canceling the racial penalty.

3) Can't say that I have. I think I might have given it a look before, but it was late and I was tired so I didn't go much into it.

[Mangles]

@Lyndworm.

I can see 2 problems with the racial PrC you created.

The first is that it should count for fighter levels to determine what feats are available to take.

The second is creatures like the The Hellwasp Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm) and the Master Hivemind ability.


A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures.

Hellwasp swarms have an int of 6 so count towards your Master Hivemind ability. With 5000 of them able to take up a 10ft area, your player will get a large bonus to mental stats that is a pain in the butt to calculate. This is the best core only option. I'm sure there is a Swarm of Fine psychic creatures in a splatbook somewhere.

[Arkhaic]

The swarm itself has an intelligence of 6, an individual hellwasp is much less intelligent. Lyndworm does need to clarify that, though.

1) That might work. I think skill based is the way to go.

2)The senseslink would have a cap (or effective cap) around 8. And yes, the 8 cap works better than 10; it was sort of arbitrary.

3)It's basically playing as the Queen of Blades. I think I linked to it in the OOC thread (my cohort is a swarmlord.)

[Lyndworm]

@Lyndworm.

I can see 2 problems with the racial PrC you created.

The first is that it should count for fighter levels to determine what feats are available to take.
I considered that, actually. For the life of me, I can't remember why I decided not to put that in there. Really, something to that affect should be added.


The second is creatures like the The Hellwasp Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm) and the Master Hivemind ability.

Hellwasp swarms have an int of 6 so count towards your Master Hivemind ability. With 5000 of them able to take up a 10ft area, your player will get a large bonus to mental stats that is a pain in the butt to calculate. This is the best core only option. I'm sure there is a Swarm of Fine psychic creatures in a splatbook somewhere.
This I did not consider. I would suggest adding something along the lines of this:

For the purposes of this ability, a swarm is considered a single creature.

[Mangles]

That would solve the problem completely and also be thematically appropriate if a Fossen was linking with another hive mind that happened to be a swarm.

[Doxkid]

if both their personal intelligence and wisdom are greater than the bonus granted by their hivemind, and as a group (we, us, ours) if their bonus intelligence or wisdom is greater than their personal intelligence or wisdom.

I understand what you mean, but the wording could use work.

[Omnicrat]

I understand what you mean, but the wording could use work.

Do you have any suggestions on how to exactly clarify that part?

[Arkhaic]

if int > intB and wis > wisB then set refers to self, else set refers to group
That work for you? :smallwink:

[Omnicrat]

if int > intB and wis > wisB then set refers to self, else set refers to group
That work for you? :smallwink:

Don't think that really simplifies things. :smalltongue:

[Arkhaic]

It probably would have been more readable if I wrote it in python rather than pseudocode. On another note, a mechanic I've been working on might be interesting for the hivemind: Opposed will saves.

[Omnicrat]

It probably would have been more readable if I wrote it in python rather than pseudocode. On another note, a mechanic I've been working on might be interesting for the hivemind: Opposed will saves.

Seems thematically fitting, but what would it do?

[Arkhaic]

I'm working on a class that uses opposed will saves rather than save DCs. Characters in the class skip using spells or psionics on things and instead use the sheer force of their will to lash out at or control others. Thematically the class compares to psions in the same way that barbarians compare to fighters: they don't shape their will into specialized uses a la psionics, they just use it like a blunt object. Any ideas of a name for this class?

[Omnicrat]

Imposer? Will-mind? Valunt? Opprimer?

edit: That sounds like it could be a great class for Fossen...

[Arkhaic]

I can see where opprimer came from, but where'd you come up with Valunt? (I personally prefer using latin or greek bases for my names, but french works too.) I can sort of see Fossen taking levels in the class, but only if they are part of a hivemind at the time. I really can't see something with a dog-like personality using raw willpower to harm others. I'm a bit busy, but I hope to get my first draft of this done in two weeks. I need to do some more research before really starting the alternate magic system though. (rereading the SRD, that sort of thing.)

[Omnicrat]

1)I can see where opprimer came from, but where'd you come up with Valunt? (I personally prefer using latin or greek bases for my names, but french works too.)

2) I can sort of see Fossen taking levels in the class, but only if they are part of a hivemind at the time. I really can't see something with a dog-like personality using raw willpower to harm others.

3) I'm a bit busy, but I hope to get my first draft of this done in two weeks. I need to do some more research before really starting the alternate magic system though. (rereading the SRD, that sort of thing.)

1) Valuntas is latin for will. Opprimer was based on a latin root too, but I forget what it was.

2) You've never heard of an attack dog, then. Remember, the current favored class is fighter. While individual Fossen are gullable and generally friendly, they are also violent and prejudice.

3) I'm looking forward to it!

[Arkhaic]

1: You got Opprimer from oppressor. Might work for a control based PrC.
2: I though they were usually only violent and prejudiced as a group. I should probably reread that.
3: I do as well. Might be time to start pulling all-nighters again.

[Omnicrat]

1: You got Opprimer from oppressor. Might work for a control based PrC.
2: I though they were usually only violent and prejudiced as a group. I should probably reread that.
3: I do as well. Might be time to start pulling all-nighters again.

1) I don't think so. I know I based it off of a latin translation of a word, but I can't recall what word.

2) As individuals, they are gullable, friendly, very emotionally driven (which can lead to violence), and prejudice. As a group, they are cunning, cold, rationally driven, and guilty about having been prejudice.

sidenote: The Fossen updates will mostlikely wane for a time, given the new activity from Kellus. I'm only at the start of page 25 as of this posting.

[Arkhaic]

I: It might have started out as another word, but it translates back as oppressor. I really want to actually learn latin.
II: That makes more sense.
III: Ooh, shiny new disciplines!
Note:Focusing on the Valunt (working title). It almost looks like it's going to end up as "Mindrape: Now Comes in Base Class Form!"

[Omnicrat]

I: It might have started out as another word, but it translates back as oppressor. I really want to actually learn latin.
II: That makes more sense.
III: Ooh, shiny new disciplines!
Note:Focusing on the Valunt (working title). It almost looks like it's going to end up as "Mindrape: Now Comes in Base Class Form!"

1) I know someone who actually does know it.

2) Yeah. Remember, they are in part a reflection of real-world human socioty, small groups/individuals represent the past of humanity, while large groups represent the present/future. If you aren't sure what behavior type falls where, try to see if it fits into human society as it is or as it was.

3) I'm actually make an new post in our campaign thread inspired by this.

4) Well that sounds fairly terrifying.

[Arkhaic]

I: I do as well. They suggested I learn the language, actually.
II:That helps too.
III:Just read it. I'm trying to write up a setting (I'm thinking post-radiomantic apocalypse.)
IV: It is. I'm organizing it into three 'paths', Manipulation, Domination and Destruction (Destruction of other people's minds, that is.) Any suggestions for spells or powers that I might base the Assertions for these paths off of? I have my own ideas, but having another brain to pick is always helpful.