Best swiftlbade melee options?

[odigity]

I love the swiftblade class, but after weeks of thinking about it, I can't figure out what do with a swiftblade build in terms of melee.

It's considered a great gish class because it has full BAB, decent spellcasting progression, and great combat benefits, including swift surge (attack/AC bonuses, extra "skirmish" damage). But because of the Haste requirement, the traditional entry is Wizard 5 or Beguiler 6, which means:


You're not going to have the best BAB, especially in the first half of your career. You can fix that with Abj Ch 5, but then you're not getting it till the end, or you're delaying your Swiftblade benefits, which sucks if that's the core of your build.
Your HP is going to suck.
Getting Spring Attack at first level means it's going to become a staple of your tactics (unless you want to ignore it, which is a waste), which means you'll be making a single attack often, rather than a full attack (especially considering the previous point about low HP). However, your single attack sucks because you don't have a good source of damage (see following points).
You're playing a Dex/Int oriented char, so you're probably not building on Power Attack.
You spent 5-6 levels in your spellcasting class, so there's hardly room for adding lots of sneak attack, and if you try, you're again delaying the more important class levels.
Skirmish is the best fit, since Swiftblade gives you extra damage on the same trigger, but Scout only gets 1d6 until level 5.


So, how do ya'll do it? What melee package do you assemble for your Swiftblades, especially Beguiler-built ones?

[eggs]

The Dex requirement is only 13 and Spring Attack is just tactically bad enough that Swiftblades usually just ignore the feat (unless they're using it to delay feat slots) and go for a fairly standard power attack/Arcane Strike approach to melee.

Fast-entry Swiftblades don't fill the gish role well at low levels. It's easiest just to accept that and treat the build as a controller/buffer while gradually easing toward a melee role when there's a chance to survive combat.

[Averis Vol]

My preferred entry is stalwart (Cmage) Battle sorcerer(UA) 6. This gives me 4 BaB, d8+2+con hp, weapon prof with 2 martial weapons (1 being one handed the other being whatever you want) and weapon focus with the latter martial weapon.

Sure, your spells known/Spell slots take a hit, but you can fight with the best of em in the early levels due to spells like fist of stone and some other early level buffs. And worse comes to worst, you pick up some scrolls (which you should do anyways) to fill the void in your morning spell prep.

(note I'm not implying something allows you to prepare extra spells from scrolls, but having them will ease the burden of being on a lower spell level then the wizard)

EDIT: you also get intimidate as a class skill so you can go with a fear stacking build.

[Eldariel]

I love the swiftblade class, but after weeks of thinking about it, I can't figure out what do with a swiftblade build in terms of melee.

It's considered a great gish class because it has full BAB, decent spellcasting progression, and great combat benefits, including swift surge (attack/AC bonuses, extra "skirmish" damage). But because of the Haste requirement, the traditional entry is Wizard 5 or Beguiler 6, which means:


You're not going to have the best BAB, especially in the first half of your career. You can fix that with Abj Ch 5, but then you're not getting it till the end, or you're delaying your Swiftblade benefits, which sucks if that's the core of your build.
Your HP is going to suck.
Getting Spring Attack at first level means it's going to become a staple of your tactics (unless you want to ignore it, which is a waste), which means you'll be making a single attack often, rather than a full attack (especially considering the previous point about low HP). However, your single attack sucks because you don't have a good source of damage (see following points).
You're playing a Dex/Int oriented char, so you're probably not building on Power Attack.
You spent 5-6 levels in your spellcasting class, so there's hardly room for adding lots of sneak attack, and if you try, you're again delaying the more important class levels.
Skirmish is the best fit, since Swiftblade gives you extra damage on the same trigger, but Scout only gets 1d6 until level 5.


So, how do ya'll do it? What melee package do you assemble for your Swiftblades, especially Beguiler-built ones?

Beguiler-base doesn't really offer much for a Gish so that's kinda hard. Wizard, however, has a fairly easy time. A low-level Beguiler with high Strength does decent attacks but that's about it. A low-level Wizard, on the other hand....well, look at low levels. The fighting there isn't so much about bonuses but about your stats. So what if the Fighter has +1 over you in to hit? That's 5%. No biggie. He's slightly better but not much better. At worst you're -3 behind which is kinda annoying, but still you'll be a reasonable melee combatant if just your strength is competitive. Your HP is low though, that can't be helped. However, when you hit level 3 you'll get False Life for Temporary HP which helps a lot. And Mage Armor obviously helps a ton with your AC.

Skirmish isn't sensible without gestalt; gishes in general shouldn't delve into precision damage. Precision damage is a feature of classes with said precision damage; a straight Gish deals damage like Fighters and Barbarians do, just with spell augmentation (with the exception of Hunter's Eye [PHBII], which allows you to get substantial Sneak Attack provided you have access to the spell). This is why it's generally best to go Power Attack with a two-hander since that's the least feat intensive way of reaching reasonable damage output, and it goes great with some Wizard spells (there's the amazing Wraithstrike on level 2, for instance, and Quickened True Strikes would work on single attacks too). Invisibility also obviously combines excellently with Power Attack as do disabling spells (it's worth noting that you can and should use Wizard combat spells as a caster rather than a warrior; doubly so if you're a Beguiler early on - they are more effective than your attacks most of the time and the whole point of being a gish is having both after all).


You generally need 14 Strength. That's enough. More is nice but 14 is a good starting point since it qualifies you for Power Attack which goes oh-so-well with magic. 13 would work but the extra 2 points of damage and point of To Hit really helps level 1.

Really, being a melee warrior on low levels depends on how generous array you have. There's a dip level 5-6 but your spells begin to compensate and you can always fall back on being a full Wizard.

[D4rtagnan]

I am playing a Swiftblade right now.
I find that combining Warblade and Wizard, is good entry levels.

[Snowbluff]

EDIT: you also get intimidate as a class skill so you can go with a fear stacking build.

Do you have Imperious Command and a way to Intimidate as a free action? If not, it really is not an efficient use of your actions.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dreadful Wrath would be pretty good in a Sorc based gish, Save against shaken DC= 10+1/2 level + cha for free in a 20 ft. radius every time you full attack, charge or use a spell that targets an enemy. Add a fearsome armour to use intimidate as move action (lesser celerity anyone?) and you can lock them. At this point Imperious Command would be a no-brainier.

[Talionis]

I am away from books, but isn't there a fairly early entry from Trapsmith from Dungeoneering? The Trapsmith gets the spell at its first level as a first level spell. I'm pretty sure you can get something that can be fairly melee oriented into Trapsmith and be Swiftblade at level 7 or so.

However if you don't have any other casting classes, it might be uncomfortable once Swiftblade advances casting more than five times and you can't gain anymore spells or casting.

[Piggy Knowles]

I am away from books, but isn't there a fairly early entry from Trapsmith from Dungeoneering? The Trapsmith gets the spell at its first level as a first level spell. I'm pretty sure you can get something that can be fairly melee oriented into Trapsmith and be Swiftblade at level 7 or so.

However if you don't have any other casting classes, it might be uncomfortable once Swiftblade advances casting more than five times and you can't gain anymore spells or casting.

I believe you can enter Trapsmith with full BAB if you use five levels in the trapfinding ranger ACF, meaning you could theoretically play a swiftblade with +19 BAB. But what's the point, when the only spells you'd get would be trapsmith spells that, while neat, really don't help a gish much at all?

If you managed to pick up bardic music you could use your third level Trapsmith spells to then qualify for Sublime Chord, but at that point you're not actually any better off than, say, a Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5.

[Talionis]

I believe you can enter Trapsmith with full BAB if you use five levels in the trapfinding ranger ACF, meaning you could theoretically play a swiftblade with +19 BAB. But what's the point, when the only spells you'd get would be trapsmith spells that, while neat, really don't help a gish much at all?

If you managed to pick up bardic music you could use your third level Trapsmith spells to then qualify for Sublime Chord, but at that point you're not actually any better off than, say, a Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5.

The usual point would be something like Trapfinding Ranger ACF hold off entering Trapsmith till you take a level of Wizard or Sorcerer (other acceptable casting class) then take a level of Trapsmith to enter Swiftblade, then advance the better casting class with Swiftblade.

You lose a lot of casting levels with Swiftblade anyway and Gishes are already less optimal than pure casters. But this way makes a pretty iconic Gish that does what he is supposed to do.

[White_Drake]

I built (still waiting for the right game) a swiftblade that works as a Dex fighter for the first several levels until it can grab a level of chameleon for 1st level haste (thank you trapsmith), and then I just level in swiftblade. I've never played it, so I can't give you a good rating of how it held up, but it seems like it could be pretty nice.

[Snowbluff]

I built (still waiting for the right game) a swiftblade that works as a Dex fighter for the first several levels until it can grab a level of chameleon for 1st level haste (thank you trapsmith), and then I just level in swiftblade. I've never played it, so I can't give you a good rating of how it held up, but it seems like it could be pretty nice.

You can't use Chameleon casting to qualify for anything.

[Averis Vol]

Do you have Imperious Command and a way to Intimidate as a free action? If not, it really is not an efficient use of your actions.

Dreadful wrath (do people really use races besides human?) , at level whatever grab imperious command (6 if you aren't feat starved). Common but practical ways of easy fear stacking.

[Snowbluff]

Dreadful wrath (do people really use races besides human?) , at level whatever grab imperious command (6 if you aren't feat starved). Common but practical ways of easy fear stacking.

Well, Imperious Command doesn't stack very well. Cowering, then it sets it to shaken the round after.

[Averis Vol]

Well, Imperious Command doesn't stack very well. Cowering, then it sets it to shaken the round after.

Yes, but as I recall you take the worst condition and the longest duration. so with dreadful wrath and imperious command your cower lasts for a minute instead of a round.

EDIT: and just to cover my ass, I finally found where it states that. page 53 of the rules compendium states: "the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire"

[Snowbluff]

Yes, but as I recall you take the worst condition and the longest duration. so with dreadful wrath and imperious command your cower lasts for a minute instead of a round.

EDIT: and just to cover my ass, I finally found where it states that. page 53 of the rules compendium states: "the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire"

So If you are cowering from IC you are cowering through the round you are supposed be shaken?:smallconfused:

[Averis Vol]

So If you are cowering from IC you are cowering through the round you are supposed be shaken?:smallconfused:

Yup. You cower for the full minute of of Dreadful wrath then you're shaken for one round after.

[White_Drake]

You can't use Chameleon casting to qualify for anything.

Well, I suppose that that could account for why I've never seen that before. Just out of curiosity, why not?

[eggs]

"You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option."

But Whatever 5/Trapsmith 1/Chameleon 4/Swiftblade 10 (Swiftblade advancing Chameleon; levels rearranged for legality) is a Swiftblade build that comes up every now and again.