Help optimize this Lock...

[Kerilstrasz]

Facts:
3,5 E
Starting as Lvl6 campaign lasts until lvl8 max.
Gold 13.000
All books allowed (no ToB,no Mags)
No +LA races
No templates
Preferences:
Ranged Lock.. thus, Eld.Blast dmg as high as possible.
Want him to be the base ranged dps.
Thoughts:
Was thinking Halfling for its racials.
Obviously the use of that chalice(+2d6 on blast) for 8k
Questions:
Any class dip that would add dmg to E.B. ?
Any Pr.C. that could do the same?
Any item? (remember 13kG-8k for chalice)
Any feat?? (unfortunately DM doesn't alow practised spellcaster to increase E.B.)
Things i heard of(but didn't find the source)..
I saw somewhere a feat that adds CHA to E.B. dmg...

thnx for your help :)

[docnessuno]

Feats:
Empower spell-like ability can be applied to EB from caster level 6 onwards.
Maximize spell-like ability can be applied to EB from caster level 6 onwards.
Maximize grants the best damage increase of the two (5.25 VS 6 damage / dice)
Mortalbane [BoVD] can be an interesting choice, increasing your EB damage by 2d6 against living nonoutsiders, but halving it against outsiders, undead, and constructs. It's not a [Vile] feat, doesn't require evil alignment and can be taken from level 1.

[eggs]

I'm sure somebody else is typing a response around Hellfire Warlock now, so I'm going to jump into the other options.

Escalation Mage from Faiths of Eberron is not mentioned as often, but it's full casting, really easy to get into, and it provides access to free metamagic on the Warlock's SLAs, based on a caster level check. EM builds strongly reward reliable caster level boosts and the Arcane Mastery feat to reliably hit targets on that CL check.

And Eldritch Theurge from Complete Mage provides simultaneous advancement of Warlock and caster progressions. It tends to have an advantage over straight Warlock because casters' blasting is usually just better than Warlocks', but ET strongly rewards builds that use early entry tricks which can be distasteful (tricks like grabbing Precocious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell from Complete Arcane to satisfy 2nd level spell requirements with one Sorcerer level, or using a chausible of fell power to satisfy 2d6 Eldritch Blast requirements with only one Warlock level).

[Kerilstrasz]

ok..
after some research and a talk with my DM...

it would be lock5/precisionclass1 <--- need some help here (1)

feats:
Mortalbane
&
Quickstrike (T&T) it reads:
Once per round, if you successfully hit with a sneak attack, you get
a free additional attack on that opponent using the same weapon at
the same attack bonus (but without extra sneak attack damage).
(DM approved the source)
so till now i can deal minimum 5d6 E.B. (E.B. + chalice)
or maximum 8d6(E.B.+chalice+mortalbane+SA) +7d6(quickstrike) for a total
of 15d6 burst in 1 round.

so...
(2)if i go halfling (for the racials) i get 1 more feat..
if i go human (for the extra feat) i get 2...

(3)so i miss 1-2 feats..

so i need help with:
(1): Which class? the 1st thought was scout, but skirmish doesn't count as
sneak attack for feats etc, as sudden strike for example.
Or does it? Is there a reference?
if it doesn't, is there an equilevant of SA for feats etc, that doesn't requires
flatfooted but smthing else,like skirmish(move before attck)
(2): Which race?
halfling gives me that +1 attck [without it i ll have +3(bab)+3 or 4(dex) for a
total of 6-7) as halfling that total goes up by 2 (racial and +2Dex racial)
human gives me the extra feat...
(erm... wasn't there a type of halfling that gives a feat without +LA?or is it a gnome?)
(3): Which feats?
im flirting with the idea of maximize ...
but any other feat that can add d6 are welcome (i d like to see my DM's face when
i roll 15+ dice :PP )

[docnessuno]

Remember that to take Maximize SLA at 6th your caster level must be 6.

Strongheart halflings get a bonus feat at 1st level, just like humans.

Activating sneak attack with ranged attacks is hard, expecially at low levels.

While sudden strike (a strictly inferior version of sneak attack) is, in many sources (PRCs, feats) considered equivalent to sneak attack (even if RAW it's not), there is no similar precedent for skirmish.

I'd go Warlock 6 (to grab maximize SLA), progressing with Warlock 7 and either Warlock 8 or scout 1.

[eggs]

Looks like nobody wound up writing that Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) suggestion. I expected it because it's the easiest way to add a good pile of d6s to the warlock's damage.

A complete explanation on how it works involves a lot of typing, and that typing's been done many times, so I'm just going to link the Melee Warlock Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708). Scroll down to the Hellfire section for an explanation on how to maximize the HFW's damage and to mitigate its disadvantages.

On precision damage, I don't know any ways to advance invocations/Eldritch Blast and precision damage sources simultaneously that don't involve jumping through a bunch of hoops. I'm not sure those are worth it.

The only feat I know to add Cha to EB damage is Divine Might, but that requires getting Turn Undead and sinking a feat on Power Attack.

But if you're interested in going a Scout 1/Warlock route with high Charisma, Cyran Avenger (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2) might also be interesting for its ranged Avenging Strike ability.

[docnessuno]

Looks like nobody wound up writing that Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) suggestion. I expected it because it's the easiest way to add a good pile of d6s to the warlock's damage.

A complete explanation on how it works involves a lot of typing, and that typing's been done many times, so I'm just going to link the Melee Warlock Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708). Scroll down to the Hellfire section for an explanation on how to maximize the HFW's damage and to mitigate its disadvantages.

On precision damage, I don't know any ways to advance invocations/Eldritch Blast and precision damage sources simultaneously that don't involve jumping through a bunch of hoops. I'm not sure those are worth it.

The only feat I know to add Cha to EB damage is Divine Might, but that requires getting Turn Undead and sinking a feat on Power Attack.

But if you're interested in going a Scout 1/Warlock route with high Charisma, Cyran Avenger (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2) might also be interesting for its ranged Avenging Strike ability.


Skills: Intimidate 6 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.

There's a reason if it wasn't sugested.

[Kerilstrasz]

ok..
so far..

Feats:
mortalbane,quickstrike,maximize

Race:
Strongheart halfling

About the S.A. class.
Since skirmish doesn't qualifies for quickstrike,
fighters variant (trade feats for S.A.)... let me explain why...
if i get rogue, i get trapfinding but i ll prolly have a trap
monkey in my group so not so usefull...
with fighter i get +1 bab, +2 Fort Saves (lock has good will,
i ll have good ref from high dex, so...)
and i "unlock" armor & weap proficiency.

so.. i m missing a feat...
maybe smthing simple like point bank shot?or precise shot?
or weap.focus ray?or is there smthing to add some more d6 there?

[docnessuno]

I'm still not sold on the sneak attack but obviously it's your character.

That said, the Craven feat will add your level to sneak attack damage.

[Kerilstrasz]

I'm still not sold on the sneak attack but obviously it's your character.

That said, the Craven feat will add your level to sneak attack damage.

its 1d6 more damage, that gives me access to quickstrike...
its a 1 lvl dip plus a feat for a total of 8d6 aditional dmg...
can you think smthing better?

yes i know craven...
it would be 6-8 dmg more...
but i really see precise shot there...
that -4 may cause to actually 1-shot 1 of my teammates...
anyways i m open to further discussion though..

[JellyPooga]

One interesting thing I discovered just the other day is that the "Sudden X" metamagic feats can be applied to Invocations (and thus Eldritch Blast). Whilst it's not as immediately impressive as the "X Spell-Like Ability" equivalents, being only usable 1/day, it can be applied to any Invocation. Thus, you can apply Maximise or Empower, for instance, to an Eldritch Blast that has a higher equivalent spell level...i.e. one that has a Blast Shape or Essence applied to it, without requiring the higher caster level (e.g. to use Maximise SLA on a Brimstone Blast would require a Caster Level of 10 or 12, IIRC, but you can use Sudden Maximise from the moment you have both elements).

Quite how you want to implement this into your given build, if at all, I leave to someone with more experience with TO. :smallwink:

[docnessuno]

The problem with sneak attack is how hard is to trigger it from range past the first round of combat.
You need to deny your opponent dex bonus to AC and while we can pretty much assume that for the first round (Walk Unseen invocation), in the following rounds you'd need one of the following:
- A standard action to use Walk unseen again.
- Sniping, succeding in an hide check at -20.
- Something else, wich is hard to obtain at those levels and/or requires setup (improved inisibility, blinking, greased area and opponent without balance, blinded/stunned/grappled/paralyzed opponent)


Precise shot is nice, but it requires point blank shot, so it's a 2 feat investment.

Same goes for "sudden" empower / maxizime, each requires another metamagic feat, and a 2-feat investment for 1/day metamagic is sub-optimal. (also this thread is not even close to TO).

[Kerilstrasz]

i was thinking to get a wand of grease.. or blindness...
wont those work to get he oppon ff?

Since i mentioned the wands... lets discuss my items a bit...
i have 13k...
i m thinking : admitxture gloves for 2,5k, chausible (lesser) for 8k,
that backpack (like b.o.h.) for 2k...
that lefts me with 500g... i could forfeit the backpack to get the wand(s)...
what you think?

the main issue is that 8k for 1d6 seems too much...

[docnessuno]

i was thinking to get a wand of grease.. or blindness...
wont those work to get he oppon ff?

Since i mentioned the wands... lets discuss my items a bit...
i have 13k...
i m thinking : admitxture gloves for 2,5k, chausible (lesser) for 8k,
that backpack (like b.o.h.) for 2k...
that lefts me with 500g... i could forfeit the backpack to get the wand(s)...
what you think?

the main issue is that 8k for 1d6 seems too much...

Chausible is well worth it imho, its 1d6 extra to something you will be doing almost every round in combat.

You could drop the backpack (handy haversack) for an healing belt [750], grease wand [750] and a cloak of resistance +1 [1.000]

Between grease and blindness, pick grease. it's cheaper and the Dex-denying part allows no save (but doesn't work on anything with 5 or more ranks of balance and they can move out).

[JellyPooga]

Same goes for "sudden" empower / maxizime, each requires another metamagic feat, and a 2-feat investment for 1/day metamagic is sub-optimal. (also this thread is not even close to TO).

The main advantage of the "Sudden" feats for this particular character (the way I see it, anyway) is that there is a solid level cap of 8th. If you were looking at using Blast Shapes or Essences, this means that Maximise/Empower Spell-Like Ability is not an option beyond the least of the Least Invocations.

As the character is focused on Eldritch Blast, then Blast Shapes and Essences are a definite option and, as such, the "Sudden" feats are also possible viables. I'm not saying they're necessarily going to be optimal, but pulling out a Maximised Eldritch Blast at 250ft or an Empowered Eldritch Chain simply isn't an option for this character without a "Sudden" Feat.

[P.S. I'm aware that this thread isn't even close to TO, on account of it being very specifically about a particular character for a particular game...the OP gives this away somewhat :smallwink: . I'm just not into the whole "high-op" thing, so don't spend as much time thinking about this kind of stuff as someone that cruises TO boards does.]

[Twilightwyrm]

Am I the only one that came in here expecting a discussion on how to optimize actual locks? I'm feeling a bit disappointed now...:smallfrown:

[Kerilstrasz]

Chausible is well worth it imho, its 1d6 extra to something you will be doing almost every round in combat.
im going to consider this.. prolly goin to get it tbh..

You could drop the backpack (handy haversack) for an healing belt [750], grease wand [750] and a cloak
of resistance +1 [1.000]
i see the belt... can channel 2d6 on undeads (where my mortalbane won't work) or get some heal for myself...
ok for the wand... why the clock?????
just for the +1 saves?


Between grease and blindness, pick grease. it's cheaper and the Dex-denying part allows no save (but doesn't
work on anything with 5 or more ranks of balance and they can move out).
can you plz explain me the process? if he has no 5+ balance, i just grease and
"puff" flated? or he has to fail the balance check too?

Also... was thinking to forfeit Chausible so i get double gloves and belt...
for 6 per day usages... what you think?


Am I the only one that came in here expecting a discussion on how to optimize actual locks? I'm feeling a bit
disappointed now...:smallfrown:
well.. the title sais "Help optimize this Lock..."
i m sorry this thread can't help you.

[eggs]

There's a reason if it wasn't sugested.There's a level cap in this game. Gotcha.

can you plz explain me the process? if he has no 5+ balance, i just grease and
"puff" flated? or he has to fail the balance check too?
He doesn't have to fail the balance check, but he does have to choose not to move off the grease between the time you cast it and the time you hit him with Eldritch Blast.

[mikalife1]

Am I the only one that came in here expecting a discussion on how to optimize actual locks? I'm feeling a bit disappointed now...:smallfrown:
No your not. Which is a shame as I wated to share my planar rift lock:smallsigh:. oh well
now on topic AFB at the moment but I think you might be able to afford a warlocks rod (is that the right name?) its from complete arcane and I think it was updated in MiC but the price escapes me.

[docnessuno]

Healing belt is for OOC healing, 6d8/day for 750 gp is incredibly cheap and quite worth it.

Cloak of resistance is there just for the +1 to saves. It never hurts to have higher saves, but i just realized you have no armor, so that cash should probably be spent for a nonmagical light armor and another want of some useful 1st level spell.

For sudden X, the problem is that he has only 1 feat slot left, so it's right out unless he wants to drop maximize SLA for it, and that's not a great tradeoff.

About grease:

Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls.


You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.

Results:
You grease a 10x10 foot square.
Anyone standing inside must pass a DC11 Reflex save or fall.
Affected targets can stay in the greased area, being flat-footed if they have less than 5 ranks in balance.
Moving trought the greased area (including creatures inside thet try to leave) is done at half speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failing means they don't move, they might be flat footed and must pass a DC11 reflex save or fall. If they fail by 5 or more they might be flat footed and they fall.
By increasig the Balance DC to 15 they can move full speed when trying to leave.
If a creature falls, it will have +4 AC against ranged attacks.

So grease it's hardly a guaranteed sneak attack. Still a better option then blindness or hold person.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Something interesting to note...

I was going to say that Escelation Mage wouldn't work with Warlock because you can't apply Metamagic Feats to SLA's, only according to Complete Arcane, you can... so long as it doesn't require modified spell slots.

Which got me to thinking... would this work with certain metamagic shennanigans to apply metamagic feats to invocations, so long as the total is +0 spell level adjustment?

Invisible Spell and Energy Substitution would then work right out of the box.

Energy Substitution, in particular, makes things quite interesting, as you can now blast in different flavors. You can even blast in different flavors while ignoring SR with Vitriolic Blast, so you can actually affect Clay Golems (without healing them). In fact, this could give them a bit of extra versatility that they previously didn't have.

In fact, Energy Sub(Cold) + Lord of Uttercold would be viable for necromantic Warlocks. You could blast, heal your undead minions, and hurt opponents.

Thoughts?

[eggs]

A wand of Swift Invisibility (from the Bard list, the wand is 1500 gp) and a set of Shadow Hands for Cloak of Deception (3k for 1 round/encounter Greater Invisibility) are also effective ways of forcing SA, and neither competes with Eldritch Blast for actions. Maybe worth thinking about.


Thoughts?
Seems like sketchy RAW, but a reasonable and interesting ruling.

The Complete Arcane entry specifically calls out Sudden Metamagic feats as options for invokers and bars other metamagic. The explanation could implicitly allow Energy Sub/Lord of the Uttercold and so forth, and I don't think they'd break anything, but the written rules aren't very permissive there.

As a side note, Escalation Mage has a line to specifically say its escalation effects work on SLAs, so the general metamagic rules aren't really pertinent.

[docnessuno]

Something interesting to note...

I was going to say that Escelation Mage wouldn't work with Warlock because you can't apply Metamagic Feats to SLA's, only according to Complete Arcane, you can... so long as it doesn't require modified spell slots.

Which got me to thinking... would this work with certain metamagic shennanigans to apply metamagic feats to invocations, so long as the total is +0 spell level adjustment?

Invisible Spell and Energy Substitution would then work right out of the box.

Energy Substitution, in particular, makes things quite interesting, as you can now blast in different flavors. You can even blast in different flavors while ignoring SR with Vitriolic Blast, so you can actually affect Clay Golems (without healing them). In fact, this could give them a bit of extra versatility that they previously didn't have.

In fact, Energy Sub(Cold) + Lord of Uttercold would be viable for necromantic Warlocks. You could blast, heal your undead minions, and hurt opponents.

Thoughts?

Reducing the metamagic modifier to +0 is not enough.
Invisible spell, for example, states that "uses a spell slot of the spell normal level", so you still need spell slots.


A wand of Swift Invisibility (from the Bard list, the wand is 1500 gp) and a set of Shadow Hands for Cloak of Deception (3k for 1 round/encounter Greater Invisibility) are also effective ways of forcing SA, and neither competes with Eldritch Blast for actions. Maybe worth thinking about.

That would work amazingly nice, and it's probably the best option.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Seems like sketchy RAW, but a reasonable and interesting ruling.

The Complete Arcane entry specifically calls out Sudden Metamagic feats as options for invokers and bars other metamagic. The explanation could implicitly allow Energy Sub/Lord of the Uttercold and so forth, and I don't think they'd break anything, but the written rules aren't very permissive there.

As a side note, Escalation Mage has a line to specifically say its escalation effects work on SLAs, so the general metamagic rules aren't really pertinent.

Well, here's the thing. Read up on the section, and you find this:

Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don't require modified spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or Invocations.

This implies that generally, metamagic feats don't work with SLA's or Invocations because they modify the spell slot. However, a +0 Spell Level Adjustment doesn't modify the spell slot. Therefore, it could work.

This is further reinforce in the next paragraph where it says 'metamagic feats can't generally be used to modify spell-like abilities or invocations'.

Generally, like usually, means typically, but not always.

[Uncle Pine]

Hellfire warlock + rod of bodily restoration (MIC) = free +6d6 to your eldritch blast.

I skimmed the topic a bit and I noticed that someone suggested the chasuble of fell power from CA for +1d6 damage: the greater version gets you +2d6 and it's only 11k.

[docnessuno]

Hellfire warlock + rod of bodily restoration (MIC) = free +6d6 to your eldritch blast.

I skimmed the topic a bit and I noticed that someone suggested the chasuble of fell power from CA for +1d6 damage: the greater version gets you +2d6 and it's only 11k.

The character won't ever qualify for HFW since the game will stop at level 8 max

Greather chasuble of fell power (along with the lesser version) was reprinted in MIC. They were updated and the greater version costs 18.000 gp.