DM messing up my SCM, Need help making decision...

[morkendi]

DM is tossing tons of undead at us. He says that undead immune to illusions, and therefore immune to my shadowcraft mage stuff. I am still able to hold my own, but he will not budge against the argument even though I have shown him stuff to state otherwise. Its ok though, I am not going to let it ruin the fun of playing as he is a very creative dm, and runs a very good game.

Anyway, we have come across a way to rebuild our character through a kind of psychic reformation. It allows us to change class, feats, skills, everything but base stats. I am torn between 3 choices. First is stay SCM as I just finished it at the character lvl of 12. Next is retrain and go into initiate of the seven fold veil. If I am correct, I would be wizard 6/ IoSV 6 in order to get the prerequisites in. Last choice is wiz 6/ ur-priest 2/ mystic thurge 4. He showed me a feat called academic priest, or something like that, that would allow me to base my priest bonus spells off my int which is 26 right now.

Just looking for advice. These are the 3 that top my list. Just trying to weigh the pros and cons.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wait, he isn't even letting your shadow illusions do the % real damage/effect?!

And he has been shown SKR's rant about undead seeing through illusions? And shown in the PHB where some illusions are listed as mind-affecting and others ARE NOT?


I would take either of the other 2 options, that is horrific and awful. If going IotSFV, you may or may not want to go into Master Specialist for the levels between Wiz 3 and it. You could be an Abjuration specialist or some other kind; my current IotSFV is a transmuter. But in the extreme long run, Abjuration Master Specialist gets a really sweet 10th level capstone, this would not be until 20th level for you, though, probably not worth having to fill your bonus slots with abjuration spells.

Ur-Priest I know little of, but your build sounds wonderfully powerful. I'm a big fan of replacing the SCM with something even more powerful as a response to your DM's blatantly against the rules nerfs.

[docnessuno]

You cannot enter IotSFV at level 7, barring some real extreme tricks, it requires 12 ranks in multiple skills, meaning level 10 entry.

Legal builds:
Abjurer 3 / Master specialist 6 / IotSFV 3
Abjurer 5 / Master specialist 4 / IotSFV 3
Wizard 5 / Full casting PRC 4 / IotSFV 3
Wizard 10 / IotSFV 2

You cannot enter Ur-Priest as a Wizard 6, the PRC requires (among other things) a base Fort save of +3.

Legal builds:
Wizard 9 / Ur-priest 2 / MT 1
Wizard 10 / Ur-priest 2
Wizard 6 / Full casting PRC 3 / Ur-priest 2 / MT 1
Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-priest 2 / MT 4

About Academic priest: note that while the maximum spell level and bonus spells would be keyed off Int, the spell DCs would still rely on Wis.

[morkendi]

In game, we are going against so pretty powerful lich lords. I was able to fight one to a standstill. I got ported into a bunch of his minions somehow from my home city when my defenses were down. I nerveskittered myself, then shadow welled myself. While in shadow well i did all my buffs and summoned some stuff which I put in my potable hole while I purposely failed my save to stay in well. When spell ended, i popped back and opened my hole and let out my own minions. This way I had meat shields. Concentrated on flew up and acid breathed his minions then orb of forced the litch. Last of the fight, he said he underestimated me and it wont happen again. So build has to be good against undead.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm not even going to get into ranting about how the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion) states "Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others." I'm not even going to mention that undead have senses. I'm not going to mention that the SRD states "A figment spell creates a false sensation" or that "A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities".

I'm going to leave alone the fact that the SRD states that "a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it" and "A phantasm spell creates a mental image" and so goes on to state that "All patterns are mind-affecting spells" and "All phantasms are mind-affecting spells" just in case you weren't paying attention.

Nor will I go into where it states "A shadow spell creates something that is partially real".

Instead, I will avoid all mention of how some DMs make up their own minds on how they would like the rules to work and will just ignore all evidence to the contrary. I will rather just suggest you ask your DM as politely as you can, out of character, whether he can offer you any guarantee that if you undergo a psychic reformation he won't then immediately nerf your new build too by changing the environment and the rules to prevent your character from being effective. Remind your DM that you have made an investment in your character and are wondering if it is his intention to make sure your investment never pays off and you never get to have any fun playing that character.

Then, ask your DM nicely what HE would suggest you do. Ask him to tell you, without necessarily revealing any secrets about the future of your game, which option would allow you to have the most fun playing, and which option would be most likely to cause you to rage-quit the game.

At least, that's what I would do.

[Randomguy]

What about Incantatrix? You could be a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 7 at this level, and that gives you immunity to death effects and energy drain, some bonus metamagic feats and Instant Metamagic 1/day. You also get bonus abjuration spells, which is nice.

[nedz]

Some DMs don't like illusions — this is normally obvious early on when you first use Silent Image and the stealth nerfs appear. Shows a lack of imagination IMHO.


...Last of the fight, he said he underestimated me and it wont happen again. So build has to be good against undead.

WTF ?

I'm not sure that this guy has what it takes to DM — YMMV.

Your build is good against undead - by RAW. This means that anything we suggest is liable to be nerfed :smallsigh:

[Answerer]

DM [...] says that undead immune to illusions
He is wrong. If he wants to houserule it that way, he should have done so before the game started, before you made an illusion-focused character. Particularly Illusion (Shadow) spells – those are explicitly partially real.

Your DM is wrong. He's wrong, and he's being a terrible DM at the same time, because this is not a minor wrong, or something inconsequential. This is a dedicated mistreatment of your character.

Now, the Shadowcraft Mage is stupidly powerful. That may be a problem. He may be doing this because he doesn't know how else to challenge it.

So in short, you need to talk to him. You need to tell him in no uncertain terms that he is wrong, and that you are not going to accept this as a retroactive houserule.

Then you need to say that you appreciate that the Shadowcraft Mage is extremely high power and that you are willing to adjust it to fix the problem. Or maybe it's just time to retire the character; maybe it's just not appropriate for the campaign.

[morkendi]

His house rule is undead auto save. Also, the quasi-reality of the spell can not exceed 100%. He says either something is real or not, that i can not make an illusion of a fireball that is more real than a fireball. So undead would take half and save for a quarter damage.

[Randomguy]

His house rule is undead auto save. Also, the quasi-reality of the spell can not exceed 100%. He says either something is real or not, that i can not make an illusion of a fireball that is more real than a fireball. So undead would take half and save for a quarter damage.

It would only be half damage save for quarter damage if you got it to be 50% real, though, right? So if you got something to 100% real it would just be save for half.

[qwertyu63]

I'm going to say talk to your DM and make it clear that he is 1: wrong as the rules go, 2: ruining your fun and 3: that the first two combined make his actions unacceptable. If he refuses to fix things in some way (be that correcting his error or changing some other thing, but refuse to accept changing your character [unless you are fine with that]), have someone replace him as DM or leave the game. There are plenty of other games with better DM's. If you can't find a local one, the forums have plenty.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think SCM, short of a few really nasty tricks lke the collar of umbral metamorphosis or the luck doamin to get Miracle, is actually broken.

You get evocations (whoopty do!) that due to the language of shadow evocation, will do diddly squat for effects other than damage if the foe makes his will save, even if it is 5000% real. In other words, the evocations that actually matter, like wall of force.

You get about half of the conjuration school, most of the parts that allow no SR, except.... now they do! And until higher levels, will have a chance of only having partial effect.

I have played a few SCMs. They are a very fun, very versatile, prestige class. They can basically spont. cast 1.5 schools of magic, and that is awesome. But I get sick of everyone saying how powerful they are. I have played in parties with other casters as a SCM. They were outright stronger than me at their specialties, by a lot. And had far more feats to play with. SCM is basically the bard of primary casters. (Again, aside from the few super broken tricks that even the handbook advises you to not use)

[demigodus]

His house rule is undead auto save. Also, the quasi-reality of the spell can not exceed 100%. He says either something is real or not, that i can not make an illusion of a fireball that is more real than a fireball. So undead would take half and save for a quarter damage.

Is your DM aware that there are TWO saves to shadow evocation? One to realize it is fake, and one to save against whatever you are replicating?

And did he inform you of this ruling before you made your character? Did he tell you undead are house ruled to be immune to illusions before you made an illusionist?

I would honestly suggest Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 4 / Initiate of the Seven Fold 3

and walk around with undead-screwing spells persisted on you. Though ask first if he has house rules about Incantatrix (there isn't any ambiguous reading on the Incantatrix, so there really shouldn't be a case of him thinking it works differently).

[morkendi]

I am fine changing my character as long as I stay some kind of wizard. I went scm a little different as my character started as a diviner. I was looking for a prc and found the scm. Since I was a whisper gnome, I took it. I am not totally optimized this way, but pretty powerful in its own right. Prescience works nice and has saved me a few times. To be honest, I use it more than my scm abilities.

[Randomguy]

I don't think SCM, short of a few really nasty tricks lke the collar of umbral metamorphosis or the luck doamin to get Miracle, is actually broken.

You get evocations (whoopty do!) that due to the language of shadow evocation, will do diddly squat for effects other than damage if the foe makes his will save, even if it is 5000% real. In other words, the evocations that actually matter, like wall of force.


Wait, what? If you get to 100% real, then nondamaging shadow spells have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them, where they have... 100% chance of working. So you can still replicate all the effects of the good evocations, like wall of force and contingency.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wait, what? If you get to 100% real, then nondamaging shadow spells have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them, where they have... 100% chance of working. So you can still replicate all the effects of the good evocations, like wall of force and contingency.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm


You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level.

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.

SCM's Shadow Illusions for evocation follow the rules of Shadow Evocation. So again, even if your wall of force is 150000 times real, if they make the will save, it does absolutely nothing to them. If Shadow Evocation did something for nondamaging spells when the victims saved, it'd say 20% chance of working or something along those lines.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wouldn't retrain, personally. Show the DM, like you did in the fight with the lich, that even pathetically gimped, you can still serve it to his "immune to a whole school of magic" lich (wish there were templates that did that, speaking as a DM...sounds fun).

Pick up some non-illusion spells and craft some wands at full caster level. Summon some monsters that have spell-like abilities or other nifty stuff. But giving into the retrain seems like conceding the point, which is sad.:smallfrown:

I also agree that you should have a calm discussion with your DM outside of session, presenting where his house ruling clearly departs from RAW, asking if there are any other novel house rules he might want to enlighten you to, and asking if the undead thing really is going to occupy a major role in the campaign like it seems. If so, pick up Leadership and recruit some cleric undead-slayer or the like. Hehe. Who knows, maybe undead is just flavor of the month.

[TuggyNE]

Show the DM, like you did in the fight with the lich, that even pathetically gimped, you can still serve it to his "immune to a whole school of magic" lich (wish there were templates that did that, speaking as a DM...sounds fun).

Actually, liches are immune to a whole school of magic, by virtue of their type even.

It's just not Illusion.

[PlusSixPelican]

Nerfs should occur pre-game not during. >.<

You weren't out-powering the entire party by a margin, were you? (I dun know the class features, just wondering.)

[morkendi]

Party is a shaman, monk, warrior, and radiant servant. I am only arcane. The lich king sees me as his biggest threat according to our divinations. Party doesn't do well without me. I have the ability to overshine the party, but I do things to make them better. They all got captured when I couldn't play one day. The next session, I was able to rescue them solo.

[PlusSixPelican]

Oh! That's the problem they'd be having, then. What you'll want to do is two things: Ask that he follow RAW in terms of your build, and optimize your party members with that rebuild so they can keep up with your build. That way you're all running around with fancy monocles and having a blat wreckin' baddies.

[morkendi]

I think that any wizard type played smart is going to have the ability to overshadow the group. To be honest, the lich should worry more about the radiant servant in my opinion.

[Twilightwyrm]

If I may, unless you've selected Transmutation as a Forbidden School, you could stick with your build and just spam Disintegrate against the Undead he throws until he starts using something else. Remember, lack of a Con score tends to leave Undead low on Fort saves, and Disintegrate is one of the few that actually work on them. (And even if they succeed, 24d6 damage isn't that bad) Besides, just because the undead are immune to your spells doesn't mean your allies are. There are plenty of lovely spells you can get via SCM that buff your allies, as opposed to hurting your enemies, and hey, now your allies will love you all the more.
Of course, psychic reformation into something else is always viable. But, should you not want to bother, you are more than capable of finding...unconventional ways to use the benefits of your class. And hey, this way you don't lose XP in the process.

[Psyren]

His house rule is undead auto save. Also, the quasi-reality of the spell can not exceed 100%. He says either something is real or not, that i can not make an illusion of a fireball that is more real than a fireball. So undead would take half and save for a quarter damage.


It would only be half damage save for quarter damage if you got it to be 50% real, though, right? So if you got something to 100% real it would just be save for half.

This is how I read this houserule.

[morkendi]

. If i shadow a fireball, i think i am at 60%. They would save for 30%. No big deal because there are more effective things to do. I dropped evocation as I originally started as a deviner. I built my character around a lot of illusion, enchantment, and necromatic spells though i do have the things like orb of force and acid breath. I like the idea of making people do stuff for me while I keep my hands clean. My character is more about knowledge and planning with a little quite manipulation, it's more fun that way. But I do have all the ability to throw down like any other wizard if I must.

The power of the scm is the ability to go above the damage for normal spells, which the dm took away. I still have the versatility though I wonder if specing another way would be better with the nerf.

[animewatcha]

Can SCM do things like create sticks of dynamite?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you are arbitrarily nerfed so that you cannot effectively affect opponents, switch up your game and start buffing the heck out of your allies instead.

Also, there's a Radiant Servant in the party, and the lich is worried about you? Particualy with all the stealth-nerfs, there's no way you can threaten him as much as "No save, everything gets turned into dust". Seriously, he's got his priorities wrong.

Heck, even without Greater Turning, there's Holy Word which is 'no save, everything Evil dies, but it isn't a death effect, so it even affects undead'.

[demigodus]

If you are arbitrarily nerfed so that you cannot effectively affect opponents, switch up your game and start buffing the heck out of your allies instead.

Also, there's a Radiant Servant in the party, and the lich is worried about you? Particualy with all the stealth-nerfs, there's no way you can threaten him as much as "No save, everything gets turned into dust". Seriously, he's got his priorities wrong.

Heck, even without Greater Turning, there's Holy Word which is 'no save, everything Evil dies, but it isn't a death effect, so it even affects undead'.

So, the DM failed his will save against morkendi's illusion of him being the biggest threat? Man, if only the DM were undead....

[Verte]

I believe this passage is part of the problem:


An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

....

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

From d20srd.org

This means that undead would be immune to a number of illusion spells, such as Nightmare - a phantasm spell - and Rainbow Pattern - a pattern spell. Also, liches are immune to all mind-affecting spells. However, as has already been noted, shadow spells generally aren't mind-affecting spells, nor are they phantasms or patterns. On the other hand, a lich would probably have a high will save anyway, and thus wouldn't be likely to be affected by those spells.

I can't really comment on good tactics for a SCM since I'm not really familiar with that particular class.


Originally Posted by morkendi
His house rule is undead auto save. Also, the quasi-reality of the spell can not exceed 100%. He says either something is real or not, that i can not make an illusion of a fireball that is more real than a fireball. So undead would take half and save for a quarter damage.

Also, is this a new houserule, or was it already part of the campaign up till now? I ask just because if it was part of the campaign already, but wasn't really an issue until now, I would interpret that differently than if he introduced this houserule only when you first encountered the lich.



...Last of the fight, he said he underestimated me and it wont happen again. So build has to be good against undead.

Who said he underestimated you? The DM in character as the lich, or the DM out of character? Again, if it was in-character, it means something else.


And he has been shown SKR's rant about undead seeing through illusions?

Who's SKR?

[demigodus]

Who's SKR?

Sean K Renolds? http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html

I'm surprised he would be used as evidence on here though.

[PinkysBrain]

Next is retrain and go into initiate of the seven fold veil.
I wouldn't do it, it's ridiculously OP.

Last choice is wiz 6/ ur-priest 2/ mystic thurge 4.
Is the rest of the party evil?

[morkendi]

The lich underestimated my character, not dm underestimating me. As far as undead , didn't face much until now.

[morkendi]

My gnome is lawful evil, but rest of the party is good. The pally that knew I was evil is no longer with us for unknown reasons.......:-)

[TuggyNE]

Sean K Renolds? http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html

I'm surprised he would be used as evidence on here though.

I think he's being cited under the "broken clock is still right twice a day" principle. :smallwink:

Off-topic from an old math book:
Do you know how to make a broken clock actually useful? It's quite simple, really. Stand by it with a starter pistol, and at the exact moment that it's correct, you fire off a blank. Then everyone, including you, knows what time it is. (Of course, you have to reload the pistol before it gets to the next correct time.)

[Leon]

radiant servant. I am only arcane. The lich king sees me as his biggest threat according to our divinations.

The Lich DM see's you as the biggest threat for what ever reason and is using the cover of the "lich" does. But then again if its hellbent on on you then its not focused on the Radiant Servant who will have the full plethora of Undead Be-Gone abilities that Divine Characters have

[Deophaun]

The power of the scm is the ability to go above the damage for normal spells, which the dm took away.
Not entirely true. For your build the power of the scm is the ability to go above damage for normal spells when the target saves (which, to me, is a ridiculous circumstance and so I find houseruling otherwise perfectly acceptable, provided done before a player invests resources into the class). The actual power of the scm is having whatever evocation spell you want at your fingertips, and it's a more powerful feature for spontaneous casters than prepared.

[Darth Stabber]

Were I in the OP's position I would have flipped the table and called the GM several graphic explitives questioning both his intelligence and parentage, left in a huff, never to be seen again. Seriously, undead unaffected by the entire school of illusion, their already immune to enchantment, why should they also be immune to an actually useful school too? Why not immune to magic completely. Undead is already really good typing as it is, and illusion is already on of the weaker schools as it is.

Do keep in mind that I am a borderline psychotic manchild who finds things that idiotic painful, any advice I give on how to act socially should be taken with a shaker of salt. I tend to get confrontational at the drop of a hat, and see very little tactical difference between proving my foe factually mistaken, and casting aspersions about the manner in which my foe's mother was employed at the time of my foes conception. I should probably seek psychiatric care, but it's not covered on my health insurance.

[Larkas]

I know! Play a Radiant Servant competently, teach your teammate how to do the same and you'll be sure to encounter no more undead threats for the rest of the campaign!:smallbiggrin:

[morkendi]

I decided to stay scm. All i did was drop 1 feat and pick up maximize. A maximized acid breath will take care of most minions while I still have other things to fall back on. Now that I finished scm, I will probably go seven fold veil or inchtarix though I don't know what other school to drop. Thinking enchantment charm, but not sure.