IC Knee Deep Arena

[Zman]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the Arena.


The arena is an 70' diameter circle, with high wooden walls. Each combatant starts 50' away from the other and has 10' behind them.

Only hr/lvl buffs can be active at the start of the match. May allow a single buff round depending.

[Cavelcade]

So, Kurt v Valen, then?

Init: [roll0]

Sweet, the perfect roll.

[Zman]

Valen, the Original

Init[roll0]

Valen, with his Greatsword out, cast a quick Shield spell before entering a Whirling Frnzy.

AC: 22
HP: 35

[Cavelcade]

This fight with regular greataxe.


Kurt enters rage and charges Valen.


[roll0] Attack
[roll1] Crit
[roll2] Damage
[roll3] Crit
[roll4] Crit


AC 15
HP 56
Thigns I forgot to do: Declare a maneuver.

[Zman]

Valen takes two swings...


Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

Power Attack[roll2]
Damage[roll3]

[Zman]

Crit Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

1stDamage[roll2]
2ndDamage[roll3]

[Zman]

Valen simply takes the head of the Dwarf as he charges. Or at least he could have, put holds back. Helping Kurt up, he offers him a hand, "Good Match"


Valen is Victorious.

Kurt is at -7.

[Cavelcade]

Kurt attacks, using his furious counterstrike and stone bones maneuver. Damage is then fully applied.


[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[Cavelcade]

Welp that was fast. The extra AC really makes a huge difference. Also bad tactics by me. Ready for a round two?

[Zman]

As Valen hits Kurt, the Dwarf manages to stay on his feat long enough to takes Valen down as well.

It's a Draw! If I let Kurt charge with Stonebones, goes to Valen if not.

Valen:19
Kurt:-7

[Cavelcade]

You actually won! Steely resolve is only for 5 damage at level 1, unfortunately, and I didn't use Stone Bones. Oh well.

[Zman]

After Valen takes down the mighty Dwarf they prepare for a second round....


Initiative
Valen[roll0]
Kurt[roll1]

[Zman]

Again Valen readies himself, bolstering his arcane defenses before working himself into a frenzy...

Best of 3?

AC:22
HP:35

[Cavelcade]

Sounds good to me.

Kurt stands ready with his axe, waiting to see what Valen does this time.


[roll0]
[roll1]


HP: 48
AC: 17
Maneuvers ready: Charging Minotaur, Vanguard Strike.

Edit: To be claer - I'm readying an attack on Valen.

[Zman]

Darned readied actions!

Valen Charges the Dwarf...

Charge Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

Hit me with your AoO Readied Attack.

Ouch, this one isn't going to be good...

[Cavelcade]

Kurt attacks as Valen charges in.


[roll0] Attack
[roll1] Crit
[roll2] Damage
[roll3]
[roll4]


AC: 17
HP: 48
Maneuvers: +Leading the Attack.

[Zman]

Kurt Barely misses.

AC back to 22 after being at 20 on the charge.

Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

Power Attack[roll2]
Damage[roll3]

[Zman]

Crit confirms.....:smalleek:


Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]



Power Attack[roll2] Seriously...I don't get it!
Damage[roll3]

And Kurt goes down for the count...

Edit: Kurt gets his action first!

[Zman]

Round 3

Kurt wins Initiative

AC:17
HP:35

[Cavelcade]

Kurt enters rage and charges. No Maneuver. Uses Intimidating rage.
Power attack -3/+6

[roll0] Intimidate

[roll1] Attack
[roll2] Crit

[roll3] Damage
[roll4] Crit
[roll5] Crit

Edit: God. Dammit.


AC 15
HP 56

[Zman]

Is Valen afraid...

[roll][d20+4/roll]

Whirling Frnzy
Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

Power Attack[roll2]
Damage[roll3]

[Zman]

Valen hits Kurt once... Assuming I'm not afraid...

AC:19
HP:35

Resist[roll0]

But, Valen is too afraid and his swing misses....

[Cavelcade]

Amusing.

Kurt continues his assault. Uses Stone Bones.


[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[roll5]


AC: 15
HP: 56
DR: 5
Maneuvers: +Charging Minotaur.

[Zman]

Valen keeps swinging, Shaken...


Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]



Power Attack[roll2]
Damage[roll3]

HP: 18

[Zman]

Crit Confirm...


Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

44 Damage...this is almost comical! Only 39 after DR

Better out him down in one...

[Zman]

Gotta run, here is my turn if Kurt can't put Valen down..


Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]



Power Attack[roll2]
Damage[roll3]

[Cavelcade]

Kurt attacks him again anyway, using Crusader's Strike, taking advantage of furious counterstrike.
Power attack -1/+2


[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[roll5]


Edit: Does the first attack you make not also take -2 with whirling frenzy? If so, Kurt gets another around, if not, thwack!

Also, missing by 1 on the AC again. If only I hadn't gone to Power Attack! Amusing again!

[Athedia]

Mithril shifted from foot to foot as she watched Natalia on the other side of the arena. Two women had entered, one woman would leave.

Couldn't resist sorry :smallsmile:

[CoffeeIncluded]

As they enter the arena, Natalia gives Mithril an easy smile and says, "Either way, no holdbacks...right?"

She steps forward, and, with a flash of her anklet, moves twice as far. Natalia then levels both loaded crossbows and fires them at the wizard, feeling secure that they wouldn't actually kill her. After all, Valen and Kurt didn't.

I think we're assuming that all damage is magically converted to nonlethal here. Otherwise Natalia would have a much harder time doing this. By which I mean she wouldn't.

Attack: [roll0]
Crit Confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2] plus Sneak Attack: [roll3]

Attack: [roll4]
Crit Confirm: [roll5]
Damage: [roll6] plus Sneak Attack: [roll7]

Both crossbows are poisoned; if Mithril's hit from either then she has to make a DC13 fort save or take 1d6 strength damage.
...Did I just 1-shot her?

[Athedia]

Mithril crumpled to the ground as both arrows hit her. The wizardess had not even had the time to fire one spell off.

Nice job

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia runs over to Mithril and helps her up. She really wasn't expecting to win so quickly. As she helps pull Mithril to her feet, she says, "Faster reflexes...Try again? You...Okay, right?"

Do you want to try again?

[Athedia]

Mithril looked around stunned, "I guess? Just let me catch my breath." She was not sure what hit her, the sensation had been over so fast.

That was hilarious :smallcool:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia waits patiently, then starts to laugh as well. "Guess...Guess I'm the sureshot this time."

That was really funny.

[CoffeeIncluded]

A flash, and it's as though the previous round of combat never happened. With a friendly shout of, "Twice lucky?" Natalia does the exact same move in combat as before. Hey, it worked so well once, right?


No lets see if it happens again :smallbiggrin:

Wish granted!

Attack: [roll0]
Crit Confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2] plus Sneak Attack: [roll3]

Attack: [roll4]
Crit Confirm: [roll5]
Damage: [roll6] plus Sneak Attack: [roll7]

As before, both weapons are poisoned: DC13 fort save or 1d6 strength damage.

This time, however, both weapons miss. Natalia shrugs and says, "Your turn, true Sureshot."

[Athedia]

With a quick gesture Mithril summoned a cloud of knives in front of her, while backing off as far as she could. Why tempt fate by putting herself nearer to the sharp edges her friend liked to wield.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hm...Natalia thinks she has a way to potentially stop Mithril's spells. She charges after Mithril and, drawing the item, throws the tanglefoot bag at her friend...

Touch attack: [roll0]

EDIT: Hang on, I forgot I did a charge...So I'm 10 feet away from Mithril and I rolled an 18 for the charge, so it hit. Make a DC 15 reflex save to avoid being pinned to the ground. You're entangled regardless.

The bag bursts, splashing goop all over Mithril. Natalia winces and says, "Sorry! ...Clean if it sticks past this."

[Athedia]

Mithril attempted to dodge the goop springing from the bag.

Reflex [roll0]

Stopping as the goo glued her legs together she cursed underneath her breath.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia stands wary, waiting to see if Mithril will be able to shoot the knives dancing around her head.

[Athedia]

Fine, if I can't move I will just attack from here

Concentration Check (I don't think I need one for the knives that spell has been cast already) Magic Missile To beat DC 15 [roll0]
If I need it on Knives [roll1] vs 15

Damage MM [roll2] [roll3]
Attack Knife [roll4]
Crit [roll5]
Damage Knife [roll6]
Crit [roll7]

She glared at Natalia, rather annoyed at the trick she had pulled. One of the knives flew off and nicked the girl. As she tried to cast her favorite attack she attempted to take a step forward and stumbled, forgetting the goo sticking to her feet.

Only 2 damage. And I rolled max damage on MM

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia winces at the nick on her arm, then draws her own sword and dagger as she attacks Mithril. Her expression changes; even if none of this was permanent--was it even real--it could still hurt. As she attacks, Natalia says, "...Sorry...I hurt you."

Attack: [roll0]
Crit confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2] Too bad I don't get sneak attack. :smalltongue:

It's a clean strike, and again Natalia is devoutly thankful that Mithril won't be truly hurt by this.

Natalia HP: 26
Mithril HP: 15

[Athedia]

Checking to see when tanglefoot bag becomes ineffective [roll0]
Concentration: Knife [roll1] MM[roll2]
Knife Attack [roll3]
Crit [roll4]
Knife Damage [roll5]
Crit Damage [roll6]

MM [roll7]*1.5
MM [roll8]*1.5
Saving spell through use of Circlet

Mithril reached behind her and grabbed her rod, wincing at the pain from her new cut. She still could not seem to cast off any of her spells, although her knives were flying true.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia winces at her friend's attack, then delivers too more of her own. As she does, she says, "Good thing...Not real, right?"

Attack: [roll0]
Crit confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

Attack: [roll3]
Crit confirm: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]

As before, both her attacks strike true.

Natalia HP: 22
Mithril HP: 6

[Athedia]

Mithril had one chance to get this right. Bracing herself she went prayed for the spell to hit.


Concentration: Knife [roll0] AA[roll1]
Knife Attack[roll2]
Knife Crit[roll3]
Knife Damage[roll4]
Knife Crit [roll5]

AA Attack [roll6]
AA Damage [roll7]*1.5 +1 round

Grabbing the rod, Mithril cast off her most powerful spell. She had not wanted to use this on Natalia, even if she knew if wasn't permanent. The idea of making someones flesh burn and their blood boil sickened her, but if it ended quickly then there was less suffering. She felt the power flow through her body as the knife and magic arrow hit at the same time, knocking the rogue to the group.

After waiting a little longer until the goo surrounding her feet broke she went over to Natalia to help her up. "You almost had me there. That was a good trick with the bag."

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia had overextended herself, and Mithril took advantage of that with two precise, crippling attacks, The rogue is just winding up for her own final blow when a bolt of acid and magical knife pierce through her stomach, sending her sprawling. Were it a true battle, she would have been bleeding out onto the ground, writhing in pain. As it was, she simply lies dazed and tingly for a few moments.

As Mithril helps her up, Natalia says, "Not...Good as yours. Still sureshot, with all magic. Great trick yourself, Mithril Turnabout." There's no anger in her voice, just happiness that her friend won. "Learned battle lessons today," she adds.

[Admiral]

Initiative roll: [roll0]

[CoffeeIncluded]

Initiative: [roll0]

Or use the 9 from before. Either way, the battle starts pretty different and still ends once I fail my will save. :smalltongue:

[Admiral]

In the quickdraw following their appearance in the arena, Shiny is the first to react. He winds up and casts sleep.


Will save DC 16 (lucky for her she has Uncanny Dodge, which protects her from being flat footed!)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia doesn't even have time to react...

Will: [roll0]

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia easily shakes off the sleep spell. She draws both crossbows and fires them at Shiny.

Heh, wasn't expecting a natural 20.

Attack: [roll0]
Crit confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

Attack: [roll3]
Crit confirm: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]

Again, weapons are poisoned.

[Admiral]

Fort save against poison:

[roll0]

[Admiral]

Shiny gets hit by one of the crossbow bolts, but shakes off the effect of the poison. He winds up again and casts a quick pair of spells.

First distract assailant, then sleep again. DC 16 for the first, and either DC 16 or 17 for the second.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Again, Natalia is hit by a one-two punch of Shiny's spells. It's not nearly as much fun when she's on the receiving end.

Will: [roll0]
Will: [roll1]

Shiny's first spell leaves her dazed, but again she manages to shake off the sleep.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia draws her dagger and sword and tries to attack Shiny in melee.

Attack: [roll0]
Crit confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

Why do I get natural 20s here where it's not necessary?

Her dagger connects perfectly, leaving what would be a nice stab wound in an actual battle.

[Admiral]

Shiny takes a short hop back, then casts another quick pair of spells, the second one a dazzling rainbow of colors.


5 foot step then distract assailant and color spray. DC 16 and DC 16/17

[CoffeeIncluded]

Will: [roll0]
Will: [roll1]

The colors burst right into her eyes, making everything impossible to see. You win.

[Admiral]

Next time we should play two against Shiny. But we should also focus on the IC thread a bit!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Agreed, Admiral! I'm kinda waiting on you and Athedia for a post though. :smalltongue:

[Zman]

Valen, the revised squares off agains Kurt the Short....

Initiative![roll0]

AC: 17
HP:31

[Cavelcade]

[roll0]
Initiative

[Zman]

Valen the revised takes a defensive posture and readies his arcane defenses.

Cast shield

AC21
HP:31

Used 1 1st level Spell

[Cavelcade]

Rages and charges, uses stone bones if available. Power attack -2/+4

[roll0] Attack
[roll1] Crit
[roll2] Damage
[roll3] Crit
[roll4] Crit

[roll5]
[roll6]
[roll7]

Edit: No stone bones til next turn, becomes available then. Good damage though.

AC: 13
HP: 56

[Zman]

That was painful, Kurt lands a nasty blow...

Here comes everything and the Kitchen sink!

Swift: Wraithstrike
Arcane Strike: Lvl 2 Slot
Max Power Attack[roll0] vs Touch +4 for max Power Attack, sad max is half of what Kurt could throw.
Damage[roll1]
Arcane Strike Damage[roll2]

AC:21
HP:9

Used 1 lvl 1 5 Remaining
Used 2 lvl 2 2 Remaining

27 Damage Back.

[Cavelcade]

A nasty blow back from Valen is the response!





Use stone bones. Furious Counterstrike for +1/+1

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[roll5]


AC: 15
HP: 29

Edit: No crit confirm, but enough!

I think the main difference is the loss of the extra attack. Maybe it's just at low levels, but it's such a huge difference.

[Zman]

Its a huge difference. The loss of attacks this class will face will seriously limit its power. I can't believe people are telling me its OP when with the loss at Iterative attacks a Barbarian will laugh at him.

Round 2?

Nice round.

[Cavelcade]

Sure, let's go.

[roll0]

[roll1]
[roll2]

Well, it means I don't have to worry as much about you killing me as quickly, so I don't have to power attack to compensate and have your AC beat me anyway.

[Zman]

Initiative
[roll0]

[Zman]

Valen, Knowing the battle may not go well simply charges...

Swift WraithStrike
Arcane Strike 1st
Power Attack Charge[roll0]vs Touch
Damage[roll1]
Arcane Strike[roll2]

Ha! Eat my minimum damage of an 16!

AC 15
HP31

[Cavelcade]

Truly it is your lucky day!

Kurt enters rage and attacks, power attack -2/+4, furious counterstrike +1/+1, uses crusader's strike.




[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[roll5]

[roll6]


HP: 45
AC: 15

Wow, eat my max damage (ignoring crits).

[Zman]

Valen is seriously Hurting... And makes another swing at Kurt...


Swift:Wraithstrike
Arcane Strike 2nd
Defensive Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]
Arcane Steike[roll2]

[Zman]

Crit Confirm!
Defensive Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]

Valen deals a precise Arcane Strike...

46 Damage

HP:4
AC:19

[Cavelcade]

Just a regular ol' attack! And then Kurt goes down either way!

+1/+1 Furious counterstrike.


[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]


Kurt takes Valen's head off his shoulder, looks down and realises just how badly he's hurt, immediately collapsing.

HP: -1

[Zman]

Draw!

Well give Round 3 a go.

Initiative[roll0]

[Cavelcade]

[roll0] Init.

[roll1]
[roll2]

[Cavelcade]

Kurt has his greataxe out and starts raging, immediately charging Valen and attacking.


Has charging minotaur and crusader's strike ready!

Power attack -3/+6

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]

[roll5]


AC: 13
HP: 56

[Zman]

Valen, unable to ready his defense takes a solid hit from the Raging Barbarian, and attempts to Retaliate defensively...

Swift: Wraithstrike
Arcane Strike: 2nd
Defensive Pwer Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]
Arcane Strike[roll2]

AC:19
HP:14

[Cavelcade]

Kurt uses the extra fuel generated by the damage he sets aside(+1/+1) to drive a power attack (-1/+2) and uses crusader's strike to relieve his pain, using the strength of his last attack to try and intimidate his foe, too.




[roll0] Intimidate.

[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

[roll6]

[roll7]


He knocks hurt out and down with a swift blow, his own body taking heart and gaining from it.

Good round again. I think what's important here is that you haven't gotten to cast shield yet, and don't get the +2AC from whirling frenzy. That much AC was just breaking me over your knee.

[Zman]

Yes, I also don't have the tools I would at lvl7, etc. even then, I don't think I will be able to take Kurt Head to Head. My only chance will come from Magic buffs as the difference in Damage will be noticeable at lvl6 etc where you'll get your iterative attacks.


I am completely confident in saying that this build is weaker than Valen's original build. But, it's Damage per Attack is comparable and more reliable. Losing HP hurts, and the loss of Whirling Frenzy is Huge.

Even given higher level builds I am inclined to think the class is a fairly balanced Tier 3 Gish.

Thoughts?

[Cavelcade]

I think that seems about right.

I also hadn't realised until we did this that whirling frenzy gives +2 AC. Next time I make a barbarian I'm taking that.

Edit: Clarifying - I think the class seems solidly tier 3, my favourite tier.

[Zman]

I think that seems about right.

I also hadn't realised until we did this that whirling frenzy gives +2 AC. Next time I make a barbarian I'm taking that.

Edit: Clarifying - I think the class seems solidly tier 3, my favourite tier.

We are in agreement. Now I just need to convince the group to let me use it.

Whirling Frenzy is incredibly potent, but it has two weaknesses. It does nothing for your Will save, a Barbarians laughable save, and it has a much shorter duration. The AC balances out the AC, unless magic is involved.

Edit: I like Tier 3 as well. I believe most classes need to me balanced towards this Tier.

I've seen some interesting things with Gestalting the lower Tiers for balance. Ie, letting Tiers 3,4 Gestalt with LA, generic classes and letting Tier 5,6 classes Gestalt with other Toer 5/6/Generic/LA.

[Cavelcade]

Yeah, it's not a bad idea. Hopefully it won't be needed here, but I do like gestahlt classes, overall!

[Zman]

Yeah, it's not a bad idea. Hopefully it won't be needed here, but I do like gestahlt classes, overall!

No, it won't be needed. I don't allow broken things into my games. Sometimes it upsets players when that perfect 3 feat 2 class feature syntax abuse isn't allowed, but that's the price for keeping the games going.

But, it maybe something I try in later games.

[Zman]

Valen enters th Arena, "Test Yourself Little One."

Initiative[roll0]

Using Revised Valen

[CoffeeIncluded]

"Same as last time," Natalia says, resigned.

Initiative: [roll0]

[CoffeeIncluded]

(Yay, she won initiative!)

Natalia flash-steps forward with her anklet, then levels both crossbows and fires them at Valen.

Attack: [roll0]
Crit confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2] plus Sneak Attack: [roll3]

Attack: [roll4]
Crit confirm: [roll5]
Damage: [roll6] plus Sneak Attack: [roll7]

Again, both weapons are poisoned.

Of course, both miss.

[Zman]

Valen smiles, his features sharper than usual. He drops his Greatsword, his fingers lengthening into claws as he gives a toothy Grin.

Then he charges...


Arcane Strike 1st
Charge Power Attack[roll0]
Damage[roll1]
Arcane Strike[roll2]


AC:17(15)
HO:31

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia cries out, then draws her blades and tries to attack Valen before stepping back.

Attack: [roll0]
Crit confirm: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

HP: 13 and I might as well surrender right now.

[Zman]

Natalia's blow misses, Valen attempts to finish it with both of his claws...

Swift Wraithstrike
Arcane Strike 2nd
Attack [roll0]
Damage[roll1]
Arcane Strike[roll2]

Attack [roll3]
Damage[roll4]
Arcane Strike[roll5]

Boy of Valen's claws hit, taking the Rogue down...

Ouch, I don't know if the Crossbows are really your best option.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Natalia sighs and sits up. She says, "Learned to stand alone, but still...Best with others."

[Zman]

I learned from the last one, gotta get in her face. Both claws may be more effective at this level.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Or get her out in the open and by herself. Or damn near anything, really. Maybe when she gets daring outlaw...

[Zman]

Or get her out in the open and by herself. Or damn near anything, really. Maybe when she gets daring outlaw...

Int to damage will be huge, just two more levels of Swashbuckler.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yes, though it's only +4. And then I pick up swordsage and flanking becomes so much easier.

[Zman]

Yes, though it's only +4. And then I pick up swordsage and flanking becomes so much easier.

Only a +4!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Only a +4!

Look at all the pluses you guys have to damage! :smalltongue:

[Zman]

Look at all the pluses you guys have to damage! :smalltongue:

You could have them too with a descent Strengh score and a two handed weapon and power attack.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You could have them too with a descent Strengh score and a two handed weapon and power attack.

Nah, I think I'll go with what I have. It's okay, as long as I'm not flying solo.

[Zman]

Nah, I think I'll go with what I have. It's okay, as long as I'm not flying solo.

Damage bonuses can get a bit much.


Ie been thinking about a way to balance DND a bit. A fun Varient rule set. All of the inherent balance issues in DnD can be frustrating.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's mostly magic vs swords.

[Zman]

It's mostly magic vs swords.

No, it's much more than that.

Power vs Versatility

Power Scaling

Ease of abuse

[CoffeeIncluded]

Isn't a lot of that because magic so outclasses melee at higher levels?

[Zman]

Isn't a lot of that because magic so outclasses melee at higher levels?

And to a lesser extent low levels.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It just blows past everything else.

[Zman]

Here is a rough rundown.

24 Pointbuy

Wound/Vitality Points(Varient)

Recharge Magic(Varient: Makes Casters Better, Limits Spamming)
Limit Casters to the Highest level spell they could cast at 10th level, ie 5th for Wizards, Sorcers, Clerics, Druids, etc.(Limits Raw Power of Casters and much abuse.)
Higher levl spells could be achieved with Rituals if the caster is high enough level.

Classes only ever get their best 10 levels for Saves, BAB, HD, skills, basically count as a Gestalt character after lvl10.

Plus little balancing things to make such a Varient work. basically character never UMD up much more powerful than a lvl10 gestalt character and Casters have a ceiling to their power and have reasons to select other classes.

It's a work in progress.

[CoffeeIncluded]

So no more fun with 9th level spells?

[Zman]

So no more fun with 9th level spells?

Name 3 Nineth level spells and try and list all the ways they break the game? They simply do.

They'd potentially be possible do them with a complex enough ritual or enough additional spellcasters were used. Basically, that powerful of magic would be not usable in a combat situation, but with enough planning could be used especially as plot devices.

Or, at the least 7th,8th,9th level spells would be soley for Epic.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I guess. It still loses a lot of fun though.

[Zman]

I guess. It still loses a lot of fun though.

Think about that. It is only fun for the Casters. Your tune will change in 5 levels when Miriam can Raise th dead and Mithril can Teleport across th world, and Shiny can warp minds at a whim, etc and you are slightly better at what you already do.

Casters scale exponentially, and that has to stop somewhere. I believe 10th level is a good point. Casters are still throwing fireballs, teleporting, raising the dead, etc which seems to me like pretty powerful magic. Do thy really need to stop time and abuse the rules too?

And once casters get scaled down, so will Melee damage. DnD runs into an arms race and that isn't good for the game.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah, but I'm playing a wizard next game so I'll get to join in on the fun too! :smalltongue: Anyway, I should go to bed soon.

[Zman]

Yeah, but I'm playing a wizard next game so I'll get to join in on the fun too! :smalltongue: Anyway, I should go to bed soon.

You mean abuse the rules, escalate power, and make whoever is playing the Melee guy/rogue feel useless and worthless....

Magic is horribly flawed as is and the whole power escalation of DnD is not a good thing.

Edit: Why do you want to play a wizard next game? Power? Versatility?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Because I really, really, really want to play Serrin Peakane.

[Zman]

And why does that require breaking the game with high level magic? Why can't that character concept be fulfilled with 5th level magic? I mean seriously? You will complain how weak Natalia is for a long time, but any proposed fix for a future game where you want to be the one breaking the game isn't ok.

I mean most of the standard Fantasy Wizard shtick can be fully fufilled by 3rd or 4th level magic. Its one of the reasons that the E6 variant is somewhat appealing. If you don't know what that is, look it up.

[Cavelcade]

I'd actually love to play E6 but have yet to get a chance.

[Zman]

I'd actually love to play E6 but have yet to get a chance.

Yeah, what I'm working on is kind of an E10, except that you get to level with additional class levels instead of just feat. The goal is for characters to end up more diverse and less shoehorned into a single role. I'm not a huge fan of Im the skill Monkey, I'm the heal it, I'm the frontline, I'm the arcane caster party composition. I like crossover, multiclassing, etc.

I think scale simply got out of hand with spells.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I was messing around a bit. But please don't remove high-leveled spells before I have a chance to play with them. :smalltongue:

[Zman]

I was messing around a bit. But please don't remove high-leveled spells before I have a chance to play with them. :smalltongue:

I thoroughly dislike high level spells. The are a bloat and escalation of ability which just doesn't balance well at all. And almost all of them are simply more broken versions of lesser spells.

The fact is, once characters start getting broken abilities, games end. Either the other players get fed up with it, or the DM does. Either way it tends to ruin play. Just look at any high level start game, or especially gestalt game.

I mean, I tried to play nice with a lvl 15 Gestalt and ended up with an AC in the 50s! And I wasn't even abusing high level spells.

The reason I, trying to craft a Varient that greatly slown progression at 10th level is that I where I feel the tipping point begins. Casters still have power, but are not so far beyond the others that they can't coexist. Once higher levels are reache, it's not the same game. It also can reduce the arms race and the 200+ damage per round arms races which makes CR meaningless.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I guess, but can we not make it the next game?

[Zman]

I guess, but can we not make it the next game?

That depends on who DMs. I don't think I will ever DM a game that isn't balanced somewhat.

[CoffeeIncluded]

What about this game? :smalltongue: Aaaahhh, let's get to Hulburg!

[Zman]

What about this game? :smalltongue: Aaaahhh, let's get to Hulburg!

I just don't let broken things fly. But it won't change the inherent problems to come. It's mainly becausenI don't think Achinca or Athedia will try to abuse any rules. Even then, you are already complaining how underpowered Ntalias is.

Anyway, enough in this thread.

And I'm waiting for IC before advancing into Hulburg.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay. I moved back to the OOC thread.