Mind-blowing revelation about the Truenamer

[Gandariel]

We all have heard stories about the Truenamer:
DCs that scale higher than you are able to increase your Truespeak check..
the fact that truenaming gets HARDER the stronger you are
lots of incomprehensible things (Yeah, etherealness as a spell-like ability.. duration: Istantaneous?)
Lots of really weak abilities, anyway (+5 to hit and damage at level 18?)
Prestige classes that DO NOT advance Truenaming
...
Need i continue?
Oh, but also, the one thing that baffles everyone
Free Gate at level 20.
No loopholes, no weird things. Just one of the most powerful abilities in the game, spammable at will.

This mass of incomprehensions, difficulties and nonsense mostly has readers conclude "This was designed poorly", or even "This is a joke, right?"

And i thought that too.

...
Until today, at least.

Today my mind has been struck by this incredible revelation about the true nature of the Truenamer.


Let's think about it.

Looking at the class, you see it's really hard to use, the abilities are really poorly written, the class is really weak in general.. and then gets Gate at level 20, out of nowhere.

What if... (And here comes the big revelation) this was entirely calculated?

What if the true, hidden design of the truenamer class was:
You will instantly become insanely powerful at 20th level.
Can you reach it?

Now all the pieces fit together: Weak and nonsensical class abilities are hurdles you must overcome.
They are tests you must pass in order to prove yourself, and to finally earn your reward.


Or in other words:
The 20th level ability is so strong the rest of the entire class is terrible just to balance it.

Thoughts? Yes, it's a joke thread =)

[docnessuno]

A brillaiant example of Magikarp Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagikarpPower).

[KillianHawkeye]

What if... (And here comes the big revelation) this was entirely calculated?

What if the true, hidden design of the truenamer class was:
You will instantly become insanely powerful at 20th level.
Can you reach it?

Now all the pieces fit together: Weak and nonsensical class abilities are hurdles you must overcome.
They are tests you must pass in order to prove yourself, and to finally earn your reward.


Or in other words:
The 20th level ability is so strong the rest of the entire class is terrible just to balance it.

Thoughts? Yes, it's a joke thread =)

Even if it's true that it was intentional like that, that is still poor class design.

[Answerer]

A. not news; it's pretty well known.

B. this is not balance.

C. this is atrocious design.

A Truenamer 20 is one of the most powerful characters in the game. A Truenamer 19 is only somewhat better than a Commoner 19.

[Gandariel]

THAT is the POINT!!

The class is Terrible on purpose!!
they gave it an overpowered ability, then balanced it with a terrible EVERYTHING-ELSE!

[Rubik]

THAT is the POINT!!

The class is Terrible on purpose!!
they gave it an overpowered ability, then balanced it with a terrible EVERYTHING-ELSE!Seems legit.

It DOES seem in line with everything else WotC did prior to Tome of Battle.

[Answerer]

THAT is the POINT!!

The class is Terrible on purpose!!
they gave it an overpowered ability, then balanced it with a terrible EVERYTHING-ELSE!
Unlikely, and it would be no excuse even if it were true.

The reality is that the Truenaming section of Tome of Magic saw neither testing nor editing. The entire chapter is rife with examples that indicate not just poor editing, but no editing. For examples, there's an entire class of Utterance that does not have any listed DC (it was added by the errata). The mere fact that someone saw fit to give Truenaming monsters huge racial bonuses to their checks indicates that someone saw the problem, but that it never got to everyone else.

[Clistenes]

THAT is the POINT!!

The class is Terrible on purpose!!
they gave it an overpowered ability, then balanced it with a terrible EVERYTHING-ELSE!

But, what's the point? The ToM's classes lacked support for epic level games, so, once you reached 20th level, you were close to retiring the character...so your character would become playable just before you stop using it.

That awesome Gate ability would go to waste...

[eggs]

I'd think the alternatives would be a bit stronger than Earthquake if they were supposed to make up for the progression.

[Gandariel]

First of all, it's a joke thread, and i know it's stupid.

But think of the idea: "We gave it a totally overpowered ability at 20th level, but we're making sure nobody gets to it, since the rest it total crap"
or "Yeah, it's a super strong ability. You'll have to work super hard to get to it"

[nedz]

So it's just like Wizard then, only more so.

Level 1 Wizards being quite weak, Level 20 Wizards being somewhat less weak.
(Deliberate Understatement)

[Answerer]

Level 1 Wizards being quite weak,
Not generally true. Weaker than they will be at higher levels, but a Wizard 1 is a quite capable adventurer.

[demigodus]

So until level 19, Monks pick on you and steal your lunch money. No one is going to take you seriously, and good luck getting to talk to any girls even with your pretty high charisma score.

Then, at level 20, suddenly all the cool kids want to start hanging out with you. Balors tremble at the sight of you. And everyone wants to be on a first name basis with you, so that you can bail them out when they are in trouble. You specifically get an ability to do just that because of how much people want your help now. You are certainly no wizard, but even sorcerers wouldn't look down on you now.

Yup, brilliant game design.

[Zilzmaer]

A brillaiant example of Magikarp Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagikarpPower).

It's even at level 20, and Gate/Gyarados both start with G...

[Phelix-Mu]

While I agree lack of support for all of ToM (cept some vestiges here and there) is pitiable and shameful, I particularly agree that a ball was dropped in relation to Truenaming. It has such pedigree as a concept, and even some connections to other stuff about Words of Power/Creation/Dark Speech. Really sad that they turned it into something that is either useless or ready and primed for abuse.

If I were going to redo it, I'd drop the base class and some sort of feat tree that you could progress through, learning to form certain words or summon/command certain creatures. More support for existing builds than core class concept. On the other hand, it could be the solid basis of a summoner class. Anything that exists as "IT'S MAGIC, BUT WE CALLED IT SOMETHING DIFFERENT" from incarnum to shadow magic, from vestiges to psionics, needs to have as much thought and supporting material as magic for it to remain balanced. For some stuff, it seemed like they just were coming up with a new something so that they could have a new something to shout about (incarnum, for instance).

[Clistenes]

While I agree lack of support for all of ToM (cept some vestiges here and there) is pitiable and shameful, I particularly agree that a ball was dropped in relation to Truenaming. It has such pedigree as a concept, and even some connections to other stuff about Words of Power/Creation/Dark Speech. Really sad that they turned it into something that is either useless or ready and primed for abuse.

If I were going to redo it, I'd drop the base class and some sort of feat tree that you could progress through, learning to form certain words or summon/command certain creatures. More support for existing builds than core class concept. On the other hand, it could be the solid basis of a summoner class. Anything that exists as "IT'S MAGIC, BUT WE CALLED IT SOMETHING DIFFERENT" from incarnum to shadow magic, from vestiges to psionics, needs to have as much thought and supporting material as magic for it to remain balanced. For some stuff, it seemed like they just were coming up with a new something so that they could have a new something to shout about (incarnum, for instance).

If the truenamer magic worked, it could have made a great system for wizards instead of the Vancian one. You would be using your knowledge and skill to manipulate magic, like in Earthsea. The Vancian system could have been left for the divine classes (who would receive each their mojo from their gods each day), the melee types would learn ToB kung-fu.

That would have been cool, each class would be doing something different. But somehow they pulled 4th edition and it seems like everybody is doing the same.

[Answerer]

So until level 19, Monks pick on you and steal your lunch money. No one is going to take you seriously, and good luck getting to talk to any girls even with your pretty high charisma score.
Last I checked, Truenamers are pretty much Int-SAD, at least for their class features. They might turn to Charisma to have something better to do, I suppose, but nothing about Truenaming requires or uses Charisma, IIRC.

[The Random NPC]

Charisma is used for their save DCs I think. All 3 of them.

[demigodus]

Last I checked, Truenamers are pretty much Int-SAD, at least for their class features. They might turn to Charisma to have something better to do, I suppose, but nothing about Truenaming requires or uses Charisma, IIRC.

Use Magic Device. For when your class features suck so much, you start using your wealth to emulate the class features of others.

[Answerer]

Use Magic Device. For when your class features suck so much, you start using your wealth to emulate the class features of others.
Fair enough!

[skycycle blues]

I know this thread is a joke, but I feel like I'm missing something about Truenamer and Gate. I read through Truenamer's capstone, and it seems like other people get the ability to use Gate on you. Is this wrong? That doesn't seem nearly as good as Gate, right? Am I missing something?

[Answerer]

There are two features, Conjunctive Gate and Say My Name And I Am There. It's the former that lets you use gate.

[skycycle blues]

There are two features, Conjunctive Gate and Say My Name And I Am There. It's the former that lets you use gate.

Is that somehow on a different page? If not, then my copy of Tome of Magic is straight up missing Conjunctive Gate.

Never mind, I found it. Didn't know it was an utterance.

[hex0]

Magikarp? I was thinking Onion Knight. :smallcool:

[Venger]

makes sense to me! just like you get rewarded with the cool outsider type for 19 levels of monk.

I wonder why zaq didn't have a chapter on how truenamer made sense all along in his handbook.

EDIT: because I forgot sarcasm doesn't work on the internet

[Socratov]

Well, look at it this way: levels 1~19 you are less worth then BMX bandit, and at lvl 20 you are the embodiment of Angel Summoner

[Rubik]

makes sense to me! just like you get rewarded with the cool outsider type for 19 levels of monk.No. It's entirely a nerf, since you're only treated as an outsider for the purposes of spells and effects, which means no more Enlarge Person, which is one of the better buff spells for a monk.

[TuggyNE]

makes sense to me! just like you get rewarded with the cool outsider type for 19 levels of monk.

It's not exactly cool, because you don't exactly get it, and it isn't exactly a reward. You're treated as a resurrectable Outsider for spells and effects, which primarily means you get immunity to some low-level spells... which are either buffs, and still useful, or offensive spells that no one ever uses any more. You don't get Outsider features (BAB, skill points, HP, saves, etc) or Outsider traits (darkvision, proficiencies, etc). At least you don't change native planes, which would really be annoying, what with banishment and what-not trashing you every so often.


No. It's entirely a nerf, since you're only treated as an outsider for the purposes of spells and effects, which means no more Enlarge Person, which is one of the better buff spells for a monk.

Strictly speaking, it's not entirely a nerf, but its benefits are extremely small and its penalties fairly noticeable in many cases. It's clearly motivated by fluff, but I wish they'd done a better job on making it worthwhile.

[Andreaz]

THAT is the POINT!!

The class is Terrible on purpose!!
they gave it an overpowered ability, then balanced it with a terrible EVERYTHING-ELSE!And we are saying that's no better. Well-designed classes provide a good game experience over as many levels as possible.
I doubt it was intentional anyway.

[Killer Angel]

And we are saying that's no better. Well-designed classes provide a good game experience over as many levels as possible.
I doubt it was intentional anyway.

Of course it wasn't intentional.
This thread is made as a joke, and Gandariel clearly stated it.

On this path, lies the ULTIMATE POWER! having awful abilities, will you survive to reach it? dun dun duuunnnn

[Darth Stabber]

Healer gets gate at 17, yeah he has to pay for it, but who cares, still great. Would rather stick out 16 crappy levels of healer than 19 of truenamer, and I've tried, got to 12 and I now I have had to switch to frozen yogurt (that and there is a froyo a block from my apartment).

[Venger]

No. It's entirely a nerf, since you're only treated as an outsider for the purposes of spells and effects, which means no more Enlarge Person, which is one of the better buff spells for a monk.


It's not exactly cool, because you don't exactly get it, and it isn't exactly a reward. You're treated as a resurrectable Outsider for spells and effects, which primarily means you get immunity to some low-level spells... which are either buffs, and still useful, or offensive spells that no one ever uses any more. You don't get Outsider features (BAB, skill points, HP, saves, etc) or Outsider traits (darkvision, proficiencies, etc). At least you don't change native planes, which would really be annoying, what with banishment and what-not trashing you every so often.

Strictly speaking, it's not entirely a nerf, but its benefits are extremely small and its penalties fairly noticeable in many cases. It's clearly motivated by fluff, but I wish they'd done a better job on making it worthwhile.


Guys... I know that. Everyone knows that. I was joking, OP said this was a joke thread. He said truenamer was good, so I said that monk was good. I'll edit it to put it in bluetext. I thought it was clear from the context, but I guess not. my b

[Darth Stabber]

Guys... I know that. Everyone knows that. I was joking, OP said this was a joke thread. He said truenamer was good, so I said that monk was good. I'll edit it to put it in bluetext. I thought it was clear from the context, but I guess not. my b

We'll see how funny it is when you can't taste icecream

[Suteinu]

Have WotC ever tried to support or defend the Truenamer, or admit what a horrible excuse for a nuclear physicist it really is? Or have they ignored it and hoped it would go unnoticed and be forgotten like an embarrasing rash?

[Answerer]

Have WotC ever tried to support or defend the Truenamer, or admit what a horrible excuse for a nuclear physicist it really is? Or have they ignored it and hoped it would go unnoticed and be forgotten like an embarrasing rash?
They probably forgot about it. If Tome of Magic made anything clear, it's that WotC didn't pay much attention to the Truenamer. There were probably a few of them who were vaguely aware that there was a class by the name. The guy who actually wrote it was similarly probably aware that he wrote up the class the night before the deadline one time, and that it had something to do with skill checks.

But those people have probably forgotten even those things by now.

[nedz]

Well, IIRC, there is the fluff line about them being able to replicate any arcane spell with a skill check. No mechanics were provided for this, but it would have made the class above Tier 1 rather than below Tier 6. We will probably never know what happened here — and even if anyone can remember, they probably don't want to.

[Venger]

Well, IIRC, there is the fluff line about them being able to replicate any arcane spell with a skill check. No mechanics were provided for this, but it would have made the class above Tier 1 rather than below Tier 6. We will probably never know what happened here — and even if anyone can remember, they probably don't want to.

I went and gave ToM a peek, but didn't see it. do you have a page number? I'm curious too now.

[Gandariel]

the ice cream thing is a test too. only those that put Truenaming above sweet ice creamness can advance to level 20!

[DarkEternal]

So, did Wizards ever apologise, or make some sort of a statement, or hell even officially updated said class so it doesn't suck?

[Darth Stabber]

So, did Wizards ever apologise, or make some sort of a statement, or hell even officially updated said class so it doesn't suck?

Not to my knowledge. Honestly I think WotC just threw it out there and hoped if it was wrong that the avid player community would patch it for them. It seems like something they would do.

[Chilingsworth]

Healer gets gate at 17, yeah he has to pay for it, but who cares, still great. Would rather stick out 16 crappy levels of healer than 19 of truenamer, and I've tried, got to 12 and I now I have had to switch to frozen yogurt (that and there is a froyo a block from my apartment).

Actually, one of my favorite characters was a healer. And that even though Gate is banned in that DM's world.