Artificer fix or not?

[Zelkon]

I am trying to fix some of the "worst," most broken elements from the game. Here's my question: are artificers broken enough to require a fix? Yes, they're versatile, but they're also very much team players. What's your take? How would you change them?
(does this go in homebrew? I figure the people here would know how to fix this kinda stuff but I can understand if it needs to go in General.)

[toapat]

I think the question is enough homebrew that the answer is yes, it belongs here

on the other hand, this question is kinda rigged. The Artificer's entire thing is crafting, Which IS broken, but not as a result of the Artificer being broken.

Potions, Scrolls, Wands, and Staves are not inherently broken, but what makes them broken is the expense of other equipment. A +5 Mithral Fullplate of Heavy Fortification, a very basic piece of melee defensive equipment, is so expensive because of the rules, that you can only get a single other item of equivalent value. and this is for an item that the game is balanced around, let alone +16 armor is only so useful at the level when you can afford it.

[bobthe6th]

Well... I would throw in my two cents of WBL being broken, as is loot. Taking it that far, then the artificer is broken as it functions as part of the WBL system.

I would rather see it work as an invoking class, or that one incarnum esqu class that was floating around.

If you say that you want loot to be a game mechanic, it is still a bit off. The class relies on being able to take time to craft things... which in any sort of a time based campaign is a problem.

This is just a rough suggestion, so take it with a grain of salt. I would like to see something like the craft pool be shrunk, but as a per day thing. So you wake up in the morning and make some stuff, use it over the course of the day, then the next day you can replace what is used up.

So... it is broken anyway you look at it, but less so in the sense it can solo the game. It is not quite what I would want it to be, in either case mentioned above.

[toapat]

Well... I would throw in my two cents of WBL being broken, as is loot. Taking it that far, then the artificer is broken as it functions as part of the WBL system.

I would rather see it work as an invoking class, or that one incarnum esqu class that was floating around.

If you say that you want loot to be a game mechanic, it is still a bit off. The class relies on being able to take time to craft things... which in any sort of a time based campaign is a problem.

This is just a rough suggestion, so take it with a grain of salt. I would like to see something like the craft pool be shrunk, but as a per day thing. So you wake up in the morning and make some stuff, use it over the course of the day, then the next day you can replace what is used up.

So... it is broken anyway you look at it, but less so in the sense it can solo the game. It is not quite what I would want it to be, in either case mentioned above.

actually, WBL is decent (it is just a guideline), and isnt really the broken part.

What is broken is item values. potions and scrolls were valued well below armor, for the quite obvious reason that they are one shot consumables. On the other hand, when a +1 sword of do something remotely useful costs as much as 10 wish scrolls the party's rebuked pet zombie can use, then you have a problem.

[bobthe6th]

[caution, thread derailing rant]It is broken in that it induces murder hobos... The noble paladin having to strip every enemy of all their filthy lucer for sale to the local magic mart to be balanced... I just hate when mechanics get in the way of fluff, as I have the habit of just going with the crunch. So I would argue just handing out WBL at level up, and then making rewards be unrelated to game balance(make a dragon hoard ridiculously huge, without fearing the party will dump it to by a staff of wish.) [caution, thread derailing rant]

To sum up both of our views I think: The artificer is broken in that it uses a broken part of the system. If you change that part of the system you will be forced to "fix" the artificer to fit. Otherwise, it is just a symptom of a upriver problem, and therefore pointless to fix without fixing the higher problem.

[Deepbluediver]

I agree that a class that specializes in crafting magic items quickly or cheaply is not by itself a broken concepts, except when (as was previously mentioned) in connection with the wealth-by-level values and the Core item-crafting system.
My opinion of the WBL chart is that it is, at best, a rough estimate of the value of gear your party should have access to, and the crafting system is weighted too heavily in favor of casters.

The Artificer, like many classes, is really only as broken as your players want to make it, since it can, in effect, duplicate any broken spell (basically mimicking the wizard in versatility).
What I think should happen is that the Artificer should get a more detailed write-up of what they can and can't do, and should trade off the ability to create amounts of gear the party wouldn't normally have access to (at a given level of wealth, anyway) for more day-to-day adventuring group style utility. Essentially divest them from using most of the regular item-crafting system at all.

One fix that I really liked had the artificer creating psuedo-wands (fluffed as mad-science creations) that broke down after a short time, so the artificer basically could change his available spell selection every couple of days, but was sharply limited in what he could do at any one time.

Edit: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255537) it is!


The crafting system is a whole 'nother kettle of worms. I've heard pathfinder does it somewhat better than 3.5 though, maybe start by checking there for ideas.