Help me argue my case to my DM!

[veven]

So, I am about to start playing in a gestalt campaign and the DM decided that instead of being able to change one side of the gestalt each level it is simply treated as a "hybrid class" so if you wanted to multiclass you could only take a single class, always able to take levels in your "hybrid class" again if you wanted.

This guy is a great DM, I love playing with him but this rule is seriously cramping my build layout. I respect that he has the final say but could you help me come up with some arguments as to why we should do things by the book instead?

[Snowbluff]

Eh, if I am reading your correctly it seems like a reasonable nerf to gestalt. Not so much class salad.

Build Advice: Do something that readily awards for you taking levels in the class for one part of your hybrid class. Like, take a Swift Hunter Ranger Champion of the Wild, and eat the 3 level dip into Scout for Swift Hunter. Or Daring outlaw. Or Ascetic Mage. Then combo these with a reasonably synergistic class for the other half of your gestalt hybrid class.

[Phelix-Mu]

Seems to me that the whole point of gestalt is to speed up the campaign and ramp up the range of abilities available to the players. Yet his ruling goes contrary to the purpose of gestalt, it seems. A lesson in self-contradiction seems to be the natural argument (e.g. "You gave me awesomeness x, then took half of it back"). Still, I'm sure the dm is aware about self-nerfing, and it might serve his purposes.

Gestalt is very, very powerful. I'm sure you can still come up with some effective optimization even without changing the DM's mind, which may be hard if there is a reason that he has ruled this way.

(sorry about inadvertent gender-assumptions...too tired to fix atm)

[HunterOfJello]

I'm not sure I understand the setup.

So your first level would be gestalt, but any level after that would be ordinary, unless you take another level in the exact same gestalt combo that you took your first level in?

i.e. you could take Fighter 1//Rogue 1, but if you ever wanted to take a level with monk in it, it would have to be non-gestalt monk?


There are a lot of arguments you could make. Multiclassing is a very important and amazing feature in 3.5 and if you create a restriction like that, you are only forcing everyone into powerful builds that never multiclass. You are also forcing people to go into Tier 3+ class duos instead of branching out into the lower tiers for specific dips because people won't want to get stuck taking a ton of levels in Fighter or Monk instead of Warblade or Swordsage.

Why does he think that using the BanHammer on gestalt multiclassing is such a great idea? What happens with Prestige Classes?

It's also worth noting that some of the strongest builds in the game are pure class builds. The rule of unintended consequences creates the consequence that going into any class that isn't great for 20 levels is going to be ignored and everyone might as well play a caster on at least one side of their build or become obsolete. Classes below Tier 3 rely heavily on the ability to multiclass in order to shine. A Barbarian 2/Chaos Monk 2/Fighter 4/Rogue 1 could be an amazing character, whereas a pure level 9 character in only a single one of those classes would become quite lackluster.

A good point you can make is that he's mainly just nerfing melee characters. Multiclassing helps melee. That's the pure and simple of it. Multiclassing does not help spellcasters and the Tier 1 classes. They lose out 90% of the time, whereas melee characters don't.

He's also nerfing creative and natural builds that arise over time. A rogue//fighter that joins a monastary and meditates on the nature of fighting leading them to become a monk//swordsage can no longer occur. He can also never learn the error of his previous ways whilst awakening a hidden draconic from within by becoming a Paladin//Sorcerer.



~

If you get stuck with the rule and he won't change his mind, strongly consider classes like the Beguiler, Archivist, Artificer, Druid, and others that have good class features over their levels (and don't lose out on class features like the Sorcerer does). A Druid//Archivist would be quite frightening.

[hymer]

My best suggestion: Be very polite. Don't whine. Be willing to take 'no' for an answer. Ask your DM for a little of his time, and then explain the build you would like to make, and ask him for his suggestion on how to come as close as possible to achieve that.
If his response doesn't do it for you, put the build in your 'useful ideas' folder and play that character some other time. And then build something that goes well with the system he set up.

All this is assuming you trust your DM to be a fair and good DM, of course. But if you don't, I expect there are other reasons to stick with the game and brazen it out.

[Darth Stabber]

Given the extreme power available, but not guaranteed, in gestalt the blanket ban seems reasonable. If you are mixing low tiered classes (4 or less), a point could be made. If you are a teir 1-2//anything, any gm looking to curtail the power of gestalt is perfectly fine giving you an "are you ****ing me" look. Even most tier3 based builds will be fine either way. A fighter//swordsage probably doesn't need the bump.

My answer would be suck it up and redesign.

Druid//barbarian would be quite fun, and you have bear warrior baked right it. Sorcerer//paladin can just deal with the less than amazing class abilities of a paladin. Cleric//monk will do. Factotum//(psion, wizard, archivist, or warblade) is still going to rule the table.

2nd ed had none of this multiclass-a-palooza (seriously multiclassing and dual classing were giant pains in the backside), and we played just fine (And we had to walk to school 15 miles in the snow, uphill both ways).

[animewatcha]

barb 20 / / wizard/cleric 20.

Pounce through everything. Have fun with anything.

[Rubik]

Eh. Simply make a new hybrid class that's got part of the class you want.

If this is what you want:

Warlock 1 // Barbarian 1
Warlock 1 // Fighter 1

...then just change it to:

Barblock 1/Fighterlock 1