How does one become a man of the cloth?

[Kaeso]

Or a woman of the cloth. Yes, the churches of the DnD-universe are equal oppertunity employers. :smallwink:

On a more serious note, I was wondering how one would justify being a cleric or other clergy-esque character in DnD. The only thing I can think of is the stereotypical "street rat that got his life saved by a priest/paladin" story, but that's been done to death. On the other hand, historically a lot of medieval priests ended up in the clergy by virtue of being a younger son of nobility (and thus not entitled to any inheritance), but those weren't exactly the types to go out and kill things with pointy sticks.

So I was wondering, how do you justify a PC being a cleric, especially a cleric of an evil deity?

[fryplink]

but those weren't exactly the types to go out and kill things with pointy sticks.

Traditionally this was not true. Armies being comprised mainly of the lower class in society are a relatively new thing. The "redcoats" were largely middle and upper-middle class. The lower classes remained farmers or were impressed militia.

The earlier you go, the more upper-class your soldiers get, although there are many exceptions. Also, the DnD cleric is modeled after the Holy Warriors who left Europe to fight in the Crusades.

[elvengunner69]

Seeing it is D&D there could be several options beyond the ones listed:

1. Young person was recruited by a church -- maybe a youth rally of sorts
2. Young person seeking power and realized prayer was a quicker way than spell books
3. Genuine religious devotion - young person had some sort of conversion experience (not just getting 'saved' by a cleric/paladin)
4. Tribal need -- small village and the old priest bit the bullet and they needed a new cleric so Young Master XXXX was chosen by his village/tribe
5. Young person was on bad end of an experience with XXXX deity which caused them to go to YYYY deity as a result

To me there seems to be lots of back story options

[Psyren]

So I was wondering, how do you justify a PC being a cleric, especially a cleric of an evil deity?

For the most part it depends on the deity in question. The reasons someone signs up with Sharess or Loviatar are unlikely to bear any resemblance to the reasons someone enlists with Helm or Ilmater. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach.

The deity's influence in the region, or their portfolio's relationship to the individual's way of life, is also likely a big factor. Someone predisposed to wanderlust would be much more likely to follow Shaundakul than Chauntea. A sailor would be unlikely to venerate Kossuth very much. A more militant individual would be drawn to Tempus or the Red Knight than to Eldath of Lurue. Tyr has a big following in Waterdeep, but not so much in Thay, and so on. And of course there are racial concerns too - An elf would be more drawn to Corellon than Torm for instance.

Piety is likely to be a common thread though, particularly for pantheon-worshippers like clerics of the Sovereign Host or Triad.

[Twilightwyrm]

Which deity were you thinking of specifically?

[Ashtagon]

...Also, the DnD cleric is modelled after the Holy Warriors who left Europe to fight in the Crusades.

Actually, he's the illegitimate child of Dr van Helsing and de la Vallette.

I believe PHB2 has some stuff on creating backgrounds. Extemporising...

* Minor scion of a noble family
* Orphan/abandoned child raised by an order of monks or given to a temple to care for.
* Child of a merchant who took to book learning instead of managing the accounts.
* Altar boy in a remote village who showed promise as the village priest tutored him.
* Farmer who suffered an injury and was miraculously healed, prompting a change of life plan in which he sold his worldly goods to finance entering the clergy.

[Ravens_cry]

Hopefully some semi-original ideas:

A servant of the god saved their life but died shortly after, so they feel indebted to the patron deity in question.
They believe strongly in the dogma of the deity and seek to spread its influence.
They have a lover who died who followed the faith and they want to be sure to meet them in the afterlife.
They fell in love with the deity in question, and this is how they express their love.

[JellyPooga]

Specifically regarding Evil deities:

- First born son of a wealthy merchant family, craves the wealth and power his father wields but is unwilling for his father to die of natural causes, so turns to worship of a dark deity to... expedite matters. From a lowly initiate, he rises through the ranks to become a fully fledged Cleric. The matter of his father and the family fortune could either be resolved or unfinished business.

- A man/woman is found dead. The victims wife/husband/brother/best friend/other close relation (our potential Cleric) is convinced that they were murdered. Seeking justice, they search high and low for the perpetrator(s). After years of searching, they are eventually contacted by an organisation who claim that they can help. Said organisation is the church of the evil deity (unbeknownst to our erstwhile revenge-seeker) and gradually indoctrinate our character into the faith. Before long and with the aid of the darkly divine, "justice" is meted out, but our initiate has been manipulated so fully that s/he no longer cares about "justice", only vengeance and s/he perceives slights against him/her round every corner. The more vengeance s/he seeks, the deeper into the mysteries of the cult s/he delves until eventually called upon by their dark lord to serve him directly. Little did s/he know that it was a servant of this very same evil deity that murdered their relation in the first place...(Bum bum BAAAAAH!!!)

- Dude's a straight up douche-bag. Joins the evil church and becomes a cleric because he likes being evil and can't stand the sight of all these goody two-shoes Paladins and servants of Pelor acting all smug and self-righteous.

- Fetishes. I won't go into detail on this one, but I'm sure you can imagine the details of some of the more...exotic and unusual practices of potential Evil Clerics. On the subject of "how", it goes;
1)Desire
2)Temptaion
3)Fulfilment
4)Unsatisfied
5)Further Tempation
6)???
7)Evil Cleric
Or something like that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's probably the most cliché reason ever, but how about the good old family tradition? "My father was a cleric and his father before him and his father before him," sort of thing.

Also of note, in a medieval-ish time period, superstition runs rampant (and is sometimes accurate) so a belief that venerating a particular patron will yield particular benefits is only natural.

When that veneration is "rewarded" (the god actually answers the follower's prayers or simple happenstance makes it appear so) his devotion deepens until he outright dedicates his life to furthering the deity's cause and spreading his dogma; probably after a pilgrimage to the nearest major temple to get proper instruction in said dogma, or an "apprenticeship" with the local priest.

[herrhauptmann]

Lawful god?
Maybe they run an orphanage. It's a more effective way of cutting down on crime by educating the streetrats and getting them a trade, than it is to catch and kill them after they steal.
Not saying that the life they'll have in the orphanage would be a happy one, but getting your basic needs met is all that's necessary.

However, what if the lawful god is actually Hextor or Bane? Imagine you're some poor kid, and one day, while asleep in your cot, you're awakened by men shouting and the sounds of combat. Turns out, some paladin of the Burning Hate, and a few other wandering thugs just burst down the door and murdered the priest, the acolytes, and the altar servers (who like you, were orphans, they just happened to have night duty this time). All for worshipping Bane/Hextor.
Then they turn to you and say "Kid, we saved you! You're free to go home!" and then they light the church on fire.
So now suddenly you're homeless, the only person who had been looking after you is dead. He might not have been the nicest, but he still rewarded you for doing well. And the people who 'saved' you just burned down your home and turned you loose into the streets with nothing more than your nightshirt. :smalleek:

I can see you hating the church of Pelor at this point. Perhaps even dedicating yourself to Hextor/Bane.

[nedz]

Or a woman of the cloth. Yes, the churches of the DnD-universe are equal opportunity employers. :smallwink:
IIRC not all of them, just most.

So I was wondering, how do you justify a PC being a cleric, especially a cleric of an evil deity?
Ideology — the evil religion is not evil in the mind of the believer.

Traditionally this was not true. Armies being comprised mainly of the lower class in society are a relatively new thing. The "redcoats" were largely middle and upper-middle class. The lower classes remained farmers or were impressed militia.

The earlier you go, the more upper-class your soldiers get, although there are many exceptions. Also, the DnD cleric is modeled after the Holy Warriors who left Europe to fight in the Crusades.
Not quite — typically the Aristocrats would have a number of professional warriors thugs who would form their contribution to the army. They would also be able to impress their serfs, but would rarely do this. This was the case from the Middle Ages through until fairly modern times.
Other societies worked in different ways, but you seem to be looking at Medieval Europe.
Oh and Children's crusade, Peasant's crusade. Most crusaders though were Aristocrats and their men at arms.

[Gildedragon]

A celestial actively recruits you.

Lantern Archon: "Hey! Listen!"
Peasant: "???"
Archon: "Pelor calls you to his service. You shall be given power to fight evil"
Peasant: "Like magic? Cool!"
Archon: "Yes like magic. Now here's your recruitment package totaling to 140gp, and here's a handbook, and before I go pick two domains from this list..."

[Kelb_Panthera]

A celestial actively recruits you.

Lantern Archon: "Hey! Listen!"
Peasant: "???"
Archon: "Pelor calls you to his service. You shall be given power to fight evil"
Peasant: "Like magic? Cool!"
Archon: "Yes like magic. Now here's your recruitment package totaling to 140gp, and here's a handbook, and before I go pick two domains from this list..."

The dialogue is a bit meta, but that's actually not an entirely absurd idea. Some devils explicitly dwell on the material converting folk to evil, according to FC2, so why wouldn't a number of inconspicuous celestials be doing the same?

[gallagher]

Same reason why the vast majority that organized religion exists today. Parents teaching their kids. Plain and simple

[MesiDoomstalker]

Or a woman of the cloth. Yes, the churches of the DnD-universe are equal oppertunity employers. :smallwink:

The Clergy of Loth would like a word with you. :smallamused:

[Arcanist]

For the most part it depends on the deity in question. The reasons someone signs up with Sharess or Loviatar are unlikely to bear any resemblance to the reasons someone enlists with Helm or Ilmater. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach.

This is actually especially true for Clerics of Shar on Thultanthar, who are indoctrinated from birth to think that she is a wondrous lady who saves puppies. It's actually to the point where if you told a Cleric of Shar that SHE caused the Spellplague and that it wasn't Mystra secretly locking away magic for herself they will actually kill you and I don't mean just "Bam, your dead" they'll friken drag that out.

It really does depend on your region as well. In some regions it is just expected to worship that deity (or else). In some really ridiculous cases Deities have actually popped on down as Avatars to tell people "Hey, you should worship me" as was with Elminster.

[nedz]

Same reason why the vast majority that organized religion exists today. Parents teaching their kids. Plain and simple

Perhaps, but I thought that the organisation might have something to do with this as well ?

[Andreaz]

Note that "Being a cleric" does mean "being part of a church". One does not need to venerate a god to become a cleric or paladin, and one does not need or gain any affiliation from the classes themselves.

As long as you have a strong belief (even if it's "I'm awesome"), you should find your way into divine spellcasting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Note that "Being a cleric" does mean "being part of a church". One does not need to venerate a god to become a cleric or paladin, and one does not need or gain any affiliation from the classes themselves.

As long as you have a strong belief (even if it's "I'm awesome"), you should find your way into divine spellcasting.

This is true enough, but bear in mind that some DM's take "strong belief" to mean "unwavering conviction of faith."

Btw, what domains does "I'm awesome" grant? :smalltongue:

[Gildedragon]

Srd: luck, strength, travel (mostly because of the power), your alignment's

[Andreaz]

This is true enough, but bear in mind that some DM's take "strong belief" to mean "unwavering conviction of faith."

Btw, what domains does "I'm awesome" grant? :smalltongue:As said, luck, strength, travel, glory. Anything directly related to why you think you're awesome, like War, Pleasure, Family.

[TuggyNE]

This is true enough, but bear in mind that some DM's take "strong belief" to mean "unwavering conviction of faith."

Btw, what domains does "I'm awesome" grant? :smalltongue:

Pride, Glory, Strength, Luck...

[Darth Stabber]

Clerics of a cause are not accepted in all settings. Forgotten realms will hear nothing of that tomfoolery. My own campaign setting will hear nothing of it either. Do you want divine magic without the reverence, welcome to archivist school.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Srd: luck, strength, travel (mostly because of the power), your alignment's


As said, luck, strength, travel, glory. Anything directly related to why you think you're awesome, like War, Pleasure, Family.


Pride, Glory, Strength, Luck...

Okay..... maybe blue being sarcasm hasn't caught on as much as I thought. :smalltongue:

[Ashtagon]

Okay..... maybe blue being sarcasm hasn't caught on as much as I thought. :smalltongue:

I think you're right.

For me, my belief in my own awesomeness grants me the Chaos and Knowledge domains.

[TuggyNE]

Okay..... maybe blue being sarcasm hasn't caught on as much as I thought. :smalltongue:

Nahhhh, we all thought it was funny enough to run with. (And, for whatever reason, didn't bother slapping blue on our responses.)

[Gildedragon]

Ooh I got one! two!
By getting a wizard to polymorph you into a cloth golem!

By having a run in with a Raggamoffyn

[Phelix-Mu]

A cleric as a class concept is kind of funny, since about 80% of clerics made come with an umbilical cord attaching them to a religious institution of some kind. Although the character doesn't need to actually belong to the church affiliation, most clerics act like they do and participate as normal in whatever hierarchy/system or lack thereof is appropriate to the deity's ethos.

That said, just as in real life, belief/faith takes as many forms as there are people in the world. Everyone's experience is unique, and indeed, this is often part of the appeal. A relationship with a god/goddess is unlike any other kind of relationship, even if it is abstracted into more of a philosophy (e.g. "mindfulness" as a buddhist concept). Your god knows you on a very intimate level, and you form your life around the dictates of your beliefs (unless you aren't very good at being a cleric, a role playing option that has some appeal).

On the other hand, some people join to be part of a larger organization.

A key question to ask early on is did this belief in x come from internal searching or external searching. Is it fulfilling a personal need, or a desire to fill some kind of social role (help people, hurt people, make fun of people, etc).

[Acanous]

A Cleric of a Trickster god that just wants to make people *Laugh* would be a neat concept.

[Coidzor]

On a more serious note, I was wondering how one would justify being a cleric or other clergy-esque character in DnD. The only thing I can think of is the stereotypical "street rat that got his life saved by a priest/paladin" story, but that's been done to death. On the other hand, historically a lot of medieval priests ended up in the clergy by virtue of being a younger son of nobility (and thus not entitled to any inheritance), but those weren't exactly the types to go out and kill things with pointy sticks.

Bishop Odo would beg to differ. Or at least the popular conception of him.

Most fantasy religions that I've run into don't require chastity or celibacy, so it being a family trade is a distinct possibility. One always needs assistants for elaborate rites so getting trained and eventually promoted in a sorta apprenticey model makes sense for the followers of a variety of deities.

As a path to an education for those who have ability but aren't monied, more hierarchical, scholarly deities could follow a model somewhere between roughly analogous to some real world examples and hogwarts.


Clerics of a cause are not accepted in all settings. Forgotten realms will hear nothing of that tomfoolery. My own campaign setting will hear nothing of it either. Do you want divine magic without the reverence, welcome to archivist school.

If you don't think clerics of principles hold them in reverence then you're kind of missing the point of them.


Note that "Being a cleric" does mean "being part of a church". One does not need to venerate a god to become a cleric or paladin, and one does not need or gain any affiliation from the classes themselves.

Also, you don't have to be part of the church hierarchy and, indeed, could be working quite against its interests. I always think of Small Gods by Terry Pratchett in such situations...

[nedz]

Btw, what domains does "I'm awesome" grant? :smalltongue:

My body is my temple. I follow my own personal path of spirituality. It is my monk training which makes me awesome.

[Agincourt]

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned yet is that it is a means to a free or cheap education. Depending on your campaign, it's plausible that churches will train their clergy for free or for very little. This could be an attractive option for someone who dreams of glory, but can't afford to go to military academy.

It could also be an explanation for why the clergy can be one alignment step away from that of their deity.

[Flavel]

There as many reasons to become a cleric as there are deities to worship.

For instance, the town drunk could also be a cleric of Dionysus. He takes his drinking seriously....

[Chilingsworth]

However, what if the lawful god is actually Hextor or Bane? Imagine you're some poor kid, and one day, while asleep in your cot, you're awakened by men shouting and the sounds of combat. Turns out, some paladin of the Burning Hate, and a few other wandering thugs just burst down the door and murdered the priest, the acolytes, and the altar servers (who like you, were orphans, they just happened to have night duty this time). All for worshipping Bane/Hextor.
Then they turn to you and say "Kid, we saved you! You're free to go home!" and then they light the church on fire.
So now suddenly you're homeless, the only person who had been looking after you is dead. He might not have been the nicest, but he still rewarded you for doing well. And the people who 'saved' you just burned down your home and turned you loose into the streets with nothing more than your nightshirt. :smalleek:

This is actually pretty close to the backstory for my Path of the Wicked character. He's a Wizard/Beguiler, not a cleric, though.