What do you use 0th level spells for?

[Story]

What do you use 0th level spells for? None of them seem particularly useful. I guess Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, and Stick can have some situational uses, but I'm not sure about the others. How are 0th level spells used for in practice?

[Deophaun]

Message + Bard's Inspire Courage. Message is, on it's own, a pretty useful spell if the players take IC and OOC distinctions seriously (which they should).

Ghost sound: It's like throwing a pebble down a hall to distract a guard, only instead of some nondescript clacking sounds, it's a pack of hungry lions.

Dancing lights have a similar use, only visual. Plus, they can be used as signal flares or to communicate in a magical form of semaphore.

Light and Detect Magic should need no explanation.

The low-damage cantrips tend to be ripe for Fell metamagic abuse.

Launch Item: If your DM will allow it, an unlimited use-activated item of launch item is the ultimate in alchemical delivery systems. Plus you no longer need a sky-high use rope check to get your grappling hook up that 100 ft-high wall. Generally not worth the spell slot, though.

[PlusSixPelican]

Easy Math: Now you've got a Masters in math on a cantrip.

[Archmage1]

Prestidigitation: if you can't do it with this spell, you are not trying hard enough. This is like wish, only 0th level
Mage hand: Trap trigger, getting items
Message: very useful
Ghost Sound: distraction central
light, detect magic, always helpful
caltrops: nice at low levels
read magic: if you don't have the spellcraft.
open/close: Trigger those traps at a safe distance.
Resistance: +1 is not a lot, and is replaced by a cloak of resistance, but it is nice for a cantrip...
Yea, a lot of them are fairly useless, but some are very useful.

[Psyren]

They're better in PF, being at-will. So you can spam certain things like Mage Hand or Prestidigitation and feel even more "magical."

In addition to the ones given above: Amanuensis is great if you plan on entering the printing business. Launch Bolt might be better for the "grappling hook" if you tie a rope to it.

[vhfforever]

Acid Splash + Fell Drain on a downed opponent is the one that first comes to mind.

[elvengunner69]

Druid 0 lvl spells -- a few are useful

Create Water - maybe we were thirsty?
Cure Minor Wounds - If you were -7 for instance would this instant stabilize you?
Detect Magic - as stated above
Detect Poison - depends on traps and all that marginally useful depending on adventure and DM
Flare - Dazzle one creature (small debuff but all those -1 can add up!)
Guidance - small buff and again sometimes a +1 can make the difference
Know Direction - have no Ranger - got Direction (still not that great)
Light - already mentioned as useful
Mending - Meh
Purify Food and Drink - goes well with the water you created
Read Magic - can be decently useful
Resistance - +1 on saving throw (see guidance above)
Virtue - 1 temp hp -- wow!

I'd say a few are pretty useful but obviously the higher you get the less likely you will need/use them

[AttilaTheGeek]

Prestidigitation: if you can't do it with this spell, you are not trying hard enough. This is like wish, only 0th level.

This. So much this. I might actually sig that because it is so true.

The way Prestidigitation works in my game is that it can work as any other cantrip or low-level spell at greatly reduced effectiveness. Instead of 5-pound telekenesis, any sound, 1 gallon of water, 10 square feet of grease, or light like a torch in 5 spell slots, it's about the force of a flick (enough to knock something over or clatter a pebble), the sound of a whisper, enough to make something moderately damp or slippery, or a glow-in-the-dark, but in only one spell slot. More often than not, that's really all you need. It really is Wish on a cantrip.

[nedz]

Daze is quite good — at level 1 — but only when you have run out of real spells or the fight isn't worth the resource expenditure.

Acid Splash for a Rogue or Scout based caster.
Ranged Touch attack with no SR: is a useful vehicle for sneak or skirmish damage.

Detect Magic and Detect Poison are useful.

Message is sometimes handy.

[Phelix-Mu]

Create Water is probably the most abuse ready 0-level spell, especially with the myriad ways to improve divine caster level. One of my druids devoted half her 0 level spell slots to this, and she eventually could produce over 100 gallons of water in under half a minute. Great out of combat utility, especially when paired with other spells on the druid spell list. Plus, great way to force dm to make on the spot rulings...like if you sandwich a wall of force against a wall with stone shape, with a very narrow gap, then fill it with water and then use cold snap or the like to freeze the water, is the mechanical force created by the freezing water enough to damage the wall?

Not the best example, but similar uses abound, giving it much more mileage than the average 0-level spell.

[Answerer]

I tend to use lots and lots of detect magic.

[Ravens_cry]

Create water makes logistics so much easier, especially if you use the common houserule of unlimited casting for 0 level spells. It can be crazy fun as well.
Detect magic is essential to any party for help sorting loot.
Prestidigitation is fun and handy, but not as generally useful in actual play as often claimed unless you are truly an expert DM wrangler.
Ghost sound, especially at higher level, can mean anything from the sound of reinforcements to the sound of a dragon.
Awful nice when paired with silent image or dancing lights.

[Piggy Knowles]

I tend to use lots and lots of detect magic.

This. The wizard I'm currently playing uses detect magic pretty much constantly, and VERY rarely uses any other cantrips.

On previous wizards I would prepare about 50% detect magic and 50% other random cantrips, and I'd pretty much always run out of the former, while I'd have a few of the latter remaining. Our current game doesn't use prepared spells, and instead treats every spellcaster like the beguiler/warmage/dread necro (yes, it's completely insane, and no, it wasn't my idea), and I'm finding that despite the fact that I can cast any cantrip on the fly, I still pretty much just detect magic.

Mage hand is probably my second most commonly used cantrip, but it's really like maybe one out of ten times that I use it.

[Palanan]

In my campaign, the swashbuckler/bard uses Message to whisper into feminine ears from across a crowded tavern. (Success rate so far: 0.00%. ; )

More seriously, at the end of a shipboard battle in our last session, the two healers moved among the dying and stabilized them with Cure Minor Wounds. Most of the dying were the enemy raiders, so they were stabilized but still unconscious, which worked out well.

[ahenobarbi]

Acid Splash + Cloudy Conjuration to get concealment or sicken your foes.

[KillianHawkeye]

I killed a basilisk with Acid Splash one time.

I also have a 2nd-level Sorcerer with the Versatile Spellcaster feat, and I use my 0-level spell slots to be able to cast my actually useful spells more often.

[NoobForHire]

One time, in a first level campaign, my party had just escaped a slave ship. We then decided just to sail said ship into port and bluff our way into claiming it as our own. When we arrived in port, I suddenly realized the sheer amount of blood on the deck from killing off all of the guards.

Thankfully, I had my 1 cubic foot/round cleaning device, Prestidigitation. :smallbiggrin:

[El Dorado]

Create Water. Clerics of Cayden Cailean (Pathfinder) can use it to Create Ale or Wine. This can make Diplomacy checks so much easier. I could probably sell it for a small profit but I'm not that mercenary.
Mending. Very useful, especially in a low wealth campaign.
Stabilize. Can be a life-saver when you're out of channel energy or cure spells.

[Gildedragon]

Amanuensis is a boon in espionage campaigns. Copy documents and letters without taking the originals, get a safe to read copy of the mad wizard's journal (alas not the spellbook, and no images but c'est la vie)

Silent Portal is simple but effective to prevent creaky doors and windows from doing just that. An excellent way to spook people by creeping in and out of rooms without a sound.

Ghostharp on your instrument to play that one amazing 3d6gp/day performance (take 20 in your room, and the next day go to the king with the melody stored.

[Darth Stabber]

Ghostharp on your instrument to play that one amazing 3d6gp/day performance (take 20 in your room, and the next day go to the king with the melody stored.

Taking 20 on a perform check to make money will take 20 days.

Detect magic is pretty much the gold standard for cantrips, usable even on lists where it is a first level spell.

Prestidigitation is better than most first level level spells, and prestidigitation traps are a standard appliance in my version of the tippyverse's apartments.

Create water is probably the best non-div orison, also a common appliance (the last being the create food trap)

Ghost sound and dancing lights have utility, and if you get creative you can get a lot milage from them, even at high levels.

Arcane mark is usefull in a tippyverse as a mark of authenticity. Beyond that, you can use it to make a name for your self if you apply it intelligently.

Daze is a spell to use at low levels, dazing is effectively giving you party an extra round against a single monster at low levels.

Acid splash and ray of frost are vehicles for metamagic feats that add effects as opposed to improving effects. Fell animate finisher, fell drain delivery, ect. Ray of frost is the worse of the two, but some like it for style points. That being said, to quote Xykon: "in a pinch style can slide".

[Arcanist]

Amanuensis is great if you plan on entering the printing business.

Heh... RIGHT! "Printing" :smallwink:

[Answerer]

Detect magic is pretty much the gold standard for cantrips, usable even on lists where it is a first level spell.
No, that's definitely prestidigitation. I may use a lot of detect magic, but prestidigitation is one of the best spells in the game. Detect magic is useful, but it's not going to get ranked all that highly.

You can think of detect magic as being the "cantrip version" of, say, arcane sight. If you're thinking along those lines, though, prestidigitation is then the "cantrip version" of wish.

[Darth Stabber]

Heh... RIGHT! "Printing" :smallwink:

When he put it on a self-resetting trap, Archmage Guttenburg revolutionized education throughout the tippyverse.


No, that's definitely prestidigitation. I may use a lot of detect magic, but prestidigitation is one of the best spells in the game. Detect magic is useful, but it's not going to get ranked all that highly.

You can think of detect magic as being the "cantrip version" of, say, arcane sight. If you're thinking along those lines, though, prestidigitation is then the "cantrip version" of wish.

I don't disagree. Detect magic is very obvious, it does exactly what is says on the tin, and what it says on the tin is pretty darn good. Prestidigitation OTOH requires some analysis, some thought, and some creativity. Detect magic is the standard because it is so obviously useful and thus a good measuring stick, prestidigitation is better but you have to work for it mentally.

[Eonir]

I have found mending to be useful in espionage campaigns as well. Need that envelope resealed after you read it? Why not mending?

[Gildedragon]

I like the idea of arcane mark but I have never really found a use for it in D&D. In pathfinder I do use it to navigate mazes.

[Arcanist]

When he put it on a self-resetting trap, Archmage Guttenburg revolutionized education throughout the tippyverse.

I meant using it for triggering a Book of Explosive Runes, but using it for making a printing press seems alright :smallconfused:

[Gildedragon]

I meant using it for triggering a Book of Explosive Runes, but using it for making a printing press seems alright :smallconfused:

That's the beauty, it doesn't trigger those nasty spells. It just gives you a copy with a blank space where the magical writing would be.

[Rubik]

The protagonist from this story (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20) uses cantrips really well (especially Amanuensis). And the story is hilarious, to boot.

[nedz]

When he put it on a self-resetting trap, Archmage Guttenburg revolutionized education throughout the tippyverse.

Amanuensis is more photocopier than printing press.

So who's going to be the first person to drop their trousers and sit on the self-resetting trap of Amanuensis ?

[Darth Stabber]

Amanuensis is more photocopier than printing press.

So who's going to be the first person to drop their trousers and sit on the self-resetting trap of Amanuensis ?

I won't copy pictures, so it won't copy your butt, on the other hand it will copy the name of that half-orc whose name you got tattoo'd on your butt that one summer vacation where you got so drunk that you thought a half orc was a fair elven maiden.

And that is why you shouldn't drink dwarven ale if you are a wizard, your fort is too low.

[Psyren]

That's the beauty, it doesn't trigger those nasty spells. It just gives you a copy with a blank space where the magical writing would be.

Actually, it specifically triggers magical traps based on writing (e.g. explosive runes, glyph of warding, symbol spells etc.) You're correct that it will not copy them; however, they still go off.

This gives another use for Amanuensis - a detonator for your book full of explosive runes. Pity about the range though.

[Gwendol]

Songbird is a given for Bards, in addition to most other cantrips mentioned.

[Serpentes]

Create Water - When you're fighting an invisible foe on hard surface (rock, stone floor, etc.) you can just Create Water on the spot.
Thus created water spills in a circle which at caster level 7 is wide enough to show approaching invisible foe with 10ft reach (instead of spotting invisible DC 20 + 20 for pinpointing you just have to notice an "empty space" in water where it stands).

[Grelna the Blue]

Ever go on a weeklong hike? When your group is coming back into town, if the cleric hasn't been regularly using Create Water for the group to wash and the mage hasn't been imitating Mr. Clean by spamming Prestidigitation and Mending on clothing, chances are excellent that every one of the PCs will be filthy, unkempt, and foul smelling. Just like cowboys just in off the dusty trail. Intimidating, perhaps, but not figures worthy of respect. Incidentally, Mending will also repair broken weapons and armor, given sufficient time.

Light is obviously one of the best spells out there for the level. Even if every PC character has darkvision, they will not be able to read scrolls or spellbooks or see color variations without visible light and their vision will only extend 60' or so. Moreover, putting Light on an arrow or quarrel and firing that missile into the midst of a group of foes, or behind them, allows you to attack the enemy from the darkness with no chance of immediate reprisal.

Detect Magic is a cantrip worthy of a Permanency spell. If your rogue is scouting ahead, you may want Message (10 min/lvl) in effect so you can request updates. It is good when coordinating ambushes as well. Flare is an obvious signal at night or in dark conditions.

Ghost Sound is great at distractions. Mage Hand is how you get the cell block keys off the hook on the wall and into the cell, or how you get the spool of twine (one end of which will be tied to your rope) threaded around the bar or projection you cannot reach normally.

Yes, 0 level spells are weak, but aside from the Conjuration spells that summon or bind allies, your 0 level spells are more versatile than any other spells you will have until you get Limited Wish, for zero percent of the cost.

[Zubrowka74]

Acid splash : the inexpensive troll finisher.

[Telonius]

Create Water can be a great one. It's close range, so you could potentially use it to make climbing, tumbling, or balancing more difficult. Also great for pranks (Still and Silent can be particularly amusing) or to put out any fires that might happen in the general vicinity of an adventuring party. Not that that would ever happen, of course.

[Zherog]

Light is obviously one of the best spells out there for the level. Even if every PC character has darkvision, they will not be able to read scrolls or spellbooks or see color variations without visible light and their vision will only extend 60' or so.

Creatures with darkvision can read just fine with it, provided the text and paper are of sufficient contrast. Black ink on a blue page? Probably not. Black ink on white paper? Sure.

[Chilingsworth]

I just used ghost sound to trick a garrison we were fighting into thinking we had reinforcements comming. (Specifically, several applications of ghost sound combined with a casting of silent image to simulate the breaking down of the gate and a squad of orcs entering the fortress.) It caused them to waste ammo on the fake orcs, and retreat long enough for us to pull back ourselves.

[Arcanist]

This gives another use for Amanuensis - a detonator for your book full of explosive runes. Pity about the range though.

25ft +5/lvl isn't that bad for a cantrip. If you are truly dead set on blowing people up with a book of explosive runes then just throw the book as an improvised weapon (unless you take Weapon Proficiency [Book of DOOM!]) and cast a Quickened Amanuensis and boom (literally) anything that isn't immune to Force damage is most likely dead taking from a 100 page book 600d6 in pain.

[javijuji]

A player at my game is playing a 1st level Healer. He heals 1+CHA with cure minor wounds. Pretty efficient use of lvl 0 spells.

[Darth Stabber]

25ft +5/lvl isn't that bad for a cantrip. If you are truly dead set on blowing people up with a book of explosive runes then just throw the book as an improvised weapon (unless you take Weapon Proficiency [Book of DOOM!]) and cast a Quickened Amanuensis and boom (literally) anything that isn't immune to Force damage is most likely dead taking from a 100 page book 600d6 in pain.

Unless amanuensis specifically states otherwise, it won't detonate explosive runes.

[Agincourt]

Unless amanuensis specifically states otherwise, it won't detonate explosive runes.

The description of the spell says, "The spell triggers (but does not copy) writing-based magic traps in the material being copied," so yes, it should trigger Explosive Runes.

[Arcanist]

The description of the spell says, "The spell triggers (but does not copy) writing-based magic traps in the material being copied," so yes, it should trigger Explosive Runes.

To be more precise.


If the target contains normal and magical writing (such as a letter with explosive runes), only the normal text is copied, leaving blank space in the copied text where the magical writing would be expected. Likewise, if the target contains text and illustration, only the text is copied. The spell triggers (but does not copy) writing-based magic traps in the material being copied.

This is just a thought, but Explosive runes doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a nuke option. It can be used as a method of knowing when someone touched your stuff. (by the cinders on the ground).

[Talderas]

Cast Light on yourself so that the person you chased into the forest at night who is hiding sees where you are so he can "easily" attack you and reveal his location....

[Gildedragon]

To be more precise.



This is just a thought, but Explosive runes doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a nuke option. It can be used as a method of knowing when someone touched your stuff. (by the cinders on the ground).

I stand corrected. What'd happen with a sepia snake sigil or symbol of whatever inside the book?

[Psyren]

I stand corrected. What'd happen with a sepia snake sigil or symbol of whatever inside the book?

The same thing that would happen if the party rogue tripped the trap while you stood nearby; spells like that tend to affect everyone in the area, not just the klutz who set them off.

What makes it worse is that Amanuensis can set things like that off, but doesn't have any HD to absorb the effect. So if you're by yourself and you're using this to copy something, as opposed to having a scribe or familiar do it, you're likely to take the full brunt of the attack. Could make for an interesting murder mystery if someone were to, say, slip a symbol of death into the archmage's stack of forms.

[Lonely Tylenol]

My PCs haven't encountered this yet, but the reason why guns are so slow-advancing in my game world is because of magical alternatives which sort of render the whole thing moot; guns, then, are sort of anachronistic by comparison. Some of these include wands in the hands of expert users (which they have encountered), but my personal favorite is the Launch Item cannon, which is used to distribute thunderstones, tanglefoot bags, alchemist's fire, flashstones, alchemical sleep gas, smoke spy buttons (I haven't figured out a more cost-effective method of doing this aside from an everburning torch + poison smoke eggshell grenade, but that requires setup and accuracy), eggshell dust grenades, contact poisons (or inhaled poisons in sealed vials), and the like from a long range in combat. It also has out-of-combat uses, however: combined with a sunrod, everburning torch, or rock with light cast on it, it can be used as a signal flare, or to illuminate an area from a distance (which has practical applications for scouting, such as sending light down a dark hallway). As mentioned previously, grappling hooks can be shot high without crippling range increment penalties, as can holdfast, the tanglefoot bag equivalent. Tied to a stick (or sunrod) or a rock, the Launch Item gun can make for an easy system for delivering messages. Rust cubes and mineral acids can help to get through solid surfaces, such as doors and walls. Flour pouches can be fired off to reveal invisible creatures and items (although it would be difficult to spot them, I suppose).

My friend (who is also in this game) has a favorite item of his on his Tibbit Warlock, which is a ring that can can cast Prestidigitation (and a few other cantrips) at-will. Among other things, the Prestidigation spell alone can be (or has been) used to magically obscure tracks (by clearing the ground you're walking on behind you), clear stale air, clean up a corpse, treat water (by heating or cooling it), flavor food, scrawl messages/leave notes for later, and so on. Wizards actually released an expanded list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) of "official" uses as well, for those interested.

Ghost Sound remains one of my favorite out-of-the-box cantrips. It is useful, really, for all the reasons that Silent Image is useful, but for auditory uses, and as a cantrip. The above-mentioned Warlock uses it to produce theme music wherever he goes in human form.

Amanuensis, Prestidigitation, Create Water, Mending, Detect Poison, Light, Purify Food and Drink, Repair Minor Damage, Launch Item and Launch Bolt are all great on either self-resetting traps or use-activated items with no limit.

Sonic Snap and Acid Splash remain the go-to spells for delivering the Fell metamagics, specifically Fell Animate and Fell Drain, the latter of which can be used to create wights at level 1 very easily by simply killing everything with 1 Hit Dice with the automatic damage from a Fell Drained Sonic Snap (with Easy Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, or whatever you please).

Detect Magic is Detect Magic.

There are literally hundreds of uses for cantrips; some of them require a little out-of-the-box thinking, but they are all definitely there.

[elvengunner69]

Create Water. Clerics of Cayden Cailean (Pathfinder) can use it to Create Ale or Wine. This can make Diplomacy checks so much easier. I could probably sell it for a small profit but I'm not that mercenary.
Mending. Very useful, especially in a low wealth campaign.
Stabilize. Can be a life-saver when you're out of channel energy or cure spells.

There is someone I'd invite to EVERY party!

[Gildedragon]

The same thing that would happen if the party rogue tripped the trap while you stood nearby; spells like that tend to affect everyone in the area, not just the klutz who set them off.

What makes it worse is that Amanuensis can set things like that off, but doesn't have any HD to absorb the effect. So if you're by yourself and you're using this to copy something, as opposed to having a scribe or familiar do it, you're likely to take the full brunt of the attack. Could make for an interesting murder mystery if someone were to, say, slip a symbol of death into the archmage's stack of forms.

Snake sigil only traps the triggerer... so you just get a glob of stasis with no one inside, or does it trap the caster of Amanuensis?
The symbol is covered by the other pages (provided one Ama-ises the book closed)... which renders it ineffective, though I am not clear if it renders it untriggerable, or if it suppresses the effect.

Back to cantrips:

Prestidigitation: Render a poison tasteless
Ray of Frost: Wizard's Create Water. Render sea-water fresh by freezing it, taking the ice and melting that. Chill a surface to make it condense water.

[Story]

By the way, can you buff caltrops? Invisible Caltrops gives you caltrops at +2-6 to hit, but I'm wondering if you can buff them up further somehow.

[Gildedragon]

Well since they make an attack roll casting True Strike on them seems legit.

[Zherog]

Well since they make an attack roll casting True Strike on them seems legit.

Nope. True strike has a target of "you." It's a self-only spell.

[Laserlight]

In my campaign, the swashbuckler/bard uses Message to whisper into feminine ears from across a crowded tavern. (Success rate so far: 0.00%. ; )

I pick up eight women in two weeks, and he has to point out the two I didn't get.

Back to OP:

Prestidigitation: if you can't think of a dozen fun uses for this, you aren't trying. Make that ship's biscuit taste like triple chocolate fudge. Heat up your tunic while you're out overnight in the ship's boat. Hold the lockpick when there's a poison needle trap. Intimidate a prisoner by having the blood magically disappear from your "vampire sword"; don't let on that it's just a Presti-clean. Use a small razor to cut ropes. Make a backscratcher for that irritating spot just below your left shoulder blade.

Whisper. In addition to picking up sophisticated women by whispering to them from the other side of the dance, it lets you do other things. Hide, then whisper to someone from 100ft away; he has no way to know that you're not invisible and right behind him. Or just say "Flee, all is discovered".

Light and Detect Magic hardly need comment.

The one I'm really looking forward to, though, is Unseen Servant. My own masseuse, anywhere I go.

[Psyren]

Snake sigil only traps the triggerer... so you just get a glob of stasis with no one inside, or does it trap the caster of Amanuensis?
The symbol is covered by the other pages (provided one Ama-ises the book closed)... which renders it ineffective, though I am not clear if it renders it untriggerable, or if it suppresses the effect.

It explicitly triggers magical traps and therefore the spell would go off whether covered or not.

SSS itself is pretty weird. What's the range on the snake? If I cast it on a billboard, will a giant snake lash out at a passing car? If I read a passage from 20 feet away, or across the room, will I still be in danger? But as far as Amanuensis triggering the spell, you're correct in that it would do nothing (since there is no "reader" to strike, or at the very least, your spell is doing the "reading.")


There is someone I'd invite to EVERY party!

Pathfinder also makes cantrips at-will. Let's get tanked!

[Toy Killer]

Nope. True strike has a target of "you." It's a self-only spell.

...

You could have caltrops as an Item familiar and Share True Strike?

:smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

My friend (who is also in this game) has a favorite item of his on his Tibbit Warlock, which is a ring that can can cast Prestidigitation (and a few other cantrips) at-will. Among other things, the Prestidigation spell alone can be (or has been) used to magically obscure tracks (by clearing the ground you're walking on behind you), clear stale air, clean up a corpse, treat water (by heating or cooling it), flavor food, scrawl messages/leave notes for later, and so on. Wizards actually released an expanded list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) of "official" uses as well, for those interested.

As per that article you can make inedible things into food, how much digestion happens in an hour?
Turn a strip of leather into a strip of jerkey, turn paper into any unsalted vegan delicacy you can think of.

Also you might be able to make poison that way. Sure the poison only lasts an hour and can't deal damage, but drow sleeping poison is pretty good and doesn't deal damage.

[TuggyNE]

As per that article you can make inedible things into food, how much digestion happens in an hour?
Turn a strip of leather into a strip of jerkey, turn paper into any unsalted vegan delicacy you can think of.

It's hard for a human to get any nutrition out of cellulose, but at least it's a decent means to dispose of secret documents more pleasantly.

[Lonely Tylenol]

As per that article you can make inedible things into food, how much digestion happens in an hour?
Turn a strip of leather into a strip of jerkey, turn paper into any unsalted vegan delicacy you can think of.

Also you might be able to make poison that way. Sure the poison only lasts an hour and can't deal damage, but drow sleeping poison is pretty good and doesn't deal damage.

Yes, but it can't make food any more wholesome than it actually is, which is to say it still has the same nutritional value... Although there are stories of people sucking on Prestidigitation-enhanced rocks like jawbreakers for the flavor. :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

Yes, but it can't make food any more wholesome than it actually is, which is to say it still has the same nutritional value... Although there are stories of people sucking on Prestidigitation-enhanced rocks like jawbreakers for the flavor. :smallbiggrin:

I wasn't refering to the flavor aspect, but the transformation part mentioned in the article. That seems like it would make leather into jerky, if only it affected a bigger area you could turn the druid's armor into a lady gaga ensemble.

[Zubrowka74]

Ray of Frost: Wizard's Create Water. Render sea-water fresh by freezing it, taking the ice and melting that.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Most desalination process actually use the opposite, distillation. When sea water freezes, the salt is still in solution so you'd have to pick out the ions. Or use some kind of reverse osmosis.

[ahenobarbi]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Most desalination process actually use the opposite, distillation. When sea water freezes, the salt is still in solution so you'd have to pick out the ions. Or use some kind of reverse osmosis.

It's far less effective but it works. One casting probably wouldn't be enough to make water potable.

[Pandiano]

Acid splash : the inexpensive troll finisher.

How so? Any non-fire non-acid damage is nonlethal. If you try to "finish" a 100hp troll with that, you've got an unconscious troll with -97hp nonlethal and -3hp lethal damage. So he stand up and has a headache.
Actually keep him unconscious and slowly bbq him on/near a campfire is more effective. ;-)

[nedz]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Most desalination process actually use the opposite, distillation. When sea water freezes, the salt is still in solution so you'd have to pick out the ions. Or use some kind of reverse osmosis.

No, but you could probably freeze distil Brandy or Vodka from Wine or Beer. It wouldn't be of the highest quality, and it might take a few zaps, but still.

[Zubrowka74]

No, but you could probably freeze distil Brandy or Vodka from Wine or Beer. It wouldn't be of the highest quality, and it might take a few zaps, but still.

It's not the same thing and it does work, see the Eisbock beer style where the beer is frozen and ice crystal are removed to concentrate the final product. Supposedly it also works on perfume bottles.

Youd' have to be able to target a temperature between the freezing points, water at 0 and ethanol at... -114, ok this is fairly easy. Salt is already in a solid state so freezing wont help.

[Zubrowka74]

How so? Any non-fire non-acid damage is nonlethal. If you try to "finish" a 100hp troll with that, you've got an unconscious troll with -97hp nonlethal and -3hp lethal damage. So he stand up and has a headache.
Actually keep him unconscious and slowly bbq him on/near a campfire is more effective. ;-)

Yes you are right. Too much NWN played, I guess. It worked like the old editions event when they updated to 3.5.

[nedz]

How so? Any non-fire non-acid damage is nonlethal. If you try to "finish" a 100hp troll with that, you've got an unconscious troll with -97hp nonlethal and -3hp lethal damage. So he stand up and has a headache.
Actually keep him unconscious and slowly bbq him on/near a campfire is more effective. ;-)

This should work in PF; where you have unlimited cantrips. It should take about 5 minutes for a 100 hp troll. That's about 50 cantrips worth of damage.

[Gildedragon]

It's far less effective but it works. One casting probably wouldn't be enough to make water potable.

It depends on how much water freezes per HP of damage. It is not the most efficient method, granted.

[TuggyNE]

How so? Any non-fire non-acid damage is nonlethal. If you try to "finish" a 100hp troll with that, you've got an unconscious troll with -97hp nonlethal and -3hp lethal damage. So he stand up and has a headache.
Actually keep him unconscious and slowly bbq him on/near a campfire is more effective. ;-)

I was going to suggest a coup-de-grace with the cantrip, which would be at least moderately effective. You auto-crit (so 2d3) and force a save every time against death.

However, it doesn't appear the coup-de-grace rules allow for spells to be used, for some reason, even weapon-like spells.

[nedz]

Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

Sounds like another hit for the dysfunctional rules ?
How about I use my Ballistae ?
Or my very large Boulder ?
Or Orb of Fire ?
Or Meteor Swarm ?

[Razgriez]

From the Duskblade list, let's check out it's Arcane Attunement spell likes, and 0 level spells:

From the Arcane Attunement we get:
-Dancing Lights: Hey, Illumination and Signalling. Always useful to have in a pinch.
-Detect magic: Detect spells are sometimes under-appreciated in my view. A Detect Magic spell can help the party know which stuff to check out, especially if pressed for time for some reason.
-Flare: Does it lose power as you level up? Yep. But it's so useful early on, and the time I've played as a Duskblade, clever use of it bailed out my party from danger. Great for sending some hungry woodland critters running away, or if you need to distract some guards long enough with checking on their buddy to beat a hasty get away, without getting a bounty for murder on your head.
-Ghost Sound: Need to get people's attention for some reason? Ghost Sound is a cheap, easy way to do it. Plus useful if you need to issue an order loud enough for people to hear.
-Read Magic: So your Detect Magic spell just gave you a ping on that glyph or writing of some kind... might be a good time to know if this is the magic glyph that opens the hidden door, or if your about to find out what nasty Explosive/Soul Trapping/Pain/Death Inducing rune your party members are about to read.

And the normal 0 level spells?:
-Acid Splash/Ray of Frost: ok, relatively useless, but hey, it makes for great party tricks, or when you need to prove to someone that you have them out gunned with arcane power, but without turning a city-state into a smoking crater in the ground.
-Disrupt Undead: Deadliest spell ever? No. but early on when you get the obligatory undead filled crypt after slaying goblins and rats at around level 3 or so, having a short ranged spell you can spam a few times against the undead can help save the Cleric from spending too many cure spells.
-Touch of Fatigue: Early on, this is a shut down spell on the physical types. Sure, it last only a couple of rounds, but in these low level fights, a "couple of rounds" is all you need. You will take away their best movement abilities at low levels, make them easier to hit, and take away some of your foe's strength. And frankly, forcing a level 1 or 2 Fighter/Barbarian to have second thoughts about Power Attacking with further reduced Accuracy for lower than normal Damage is always nice.

[DarkEternal]

Detect Magic is like a low level See Invisibility or something, so yeah, it's awesome. Not even mentioning seeing magical traps-magical items and the like.

[Story]

-Acid Splash/Ray of Frost: ok, relatively useless, but hey, it makes for great party tricks, or when you need to prove to someone that you have them out gunned with arcane power, but without turning a city-state into a smoking crater in the ground.

If you can't reduce a city-state to a smoking crater with a Ray of Frost, you aren't trying hard enough.

[ahenobarbi]

Detect Magic is like a low level See Invisibility or something, so yeah, it's awesome. Not even mentioning seeing magical traps-magical items and the like.

I don't think detect magic should work for detecting magic traps. Because when you spend a few hundred gp on magic trap it's really good idea to spend a few sp on a bit of lead.

[Deophaun]

I don't think detect magic should work for detecting magic traps. Because when you spend a few hundred gp on magic trap it's really good idea to spend a few sp on a bit of lead.
Depends on the trap. On a trap that has a magical trigger, the lead would be self-defeating. Also, the fact that there's a black hole in your detection might also raise alarm bells, depending on how you play detect magic. Finally, you'd need something to move the lead out of the way, which should decrease both the spot and disable device DCs, in addition to limiting your trap design.

[TuggyNE]

Depends on the trap. On a trap that has a magical trigger, the lead would be self-defeating. Also, the fact that there's a black hole in your detection might also raise alarm bells, depending on how you play detect magic. Finally, you'd need something to move the lead out of the way, which should decrease both the spot and disable device DCs, in addition to limiting your trap design.

Of course, sticking a spellclock or similar in a strategic location to cast nystul's magic aura may help somewhat, for really significant traps.

Edit: Instead of lead, that is.

[ahenobarbi]

Depends on the trap. On a trap that has a magical trigger, the lead would be self-defeating. Also, the fact that there's a black hole in your detection might also raise alarm bells, depending on how you play detect magic. Finally, you'd need something to move the lead out of the way, which should decrease both the spot and disable device DCs, in addition to limiting your trap design.
| is regular wall
- is lead-covered wall
* is trap

|
|
|
---
*
---
|
|

how do you see trap with detect magic before you trigger it?

[Deophaun]

how do you see trap with detect magic before you trigger it?
First, obvious alcove is obvious. Remember, this has to be at least a one square foot opening or you've blocked line of effect, and the shallower the depression, the further away from the alcove you can be to spot it.

Second, the same way you can gain cover from an opponent and still have a completely unobstructed shot.

Also, if that trap design becomes common and somehow does work, it won't be long before a continual-flamed rock tied to a string is employed on all such architectural flourishes. "Oops, my detect magic isn't pinging the rock. Must be a trap there."

[ahenobarbi]

First, obvious alcove is obvious. Remember, this has to be at least a one square foot opening or you've blocked line of effect, and the shallower the depression, the further away from the alcove you can be to spot it.

It works fine in narrow places (i.e. the kind of places you'd want to trap).


Second, the same way you can gain cover from an opponent and still have a completely unobstructed shot.

Isn't it the other way round (trap having concealment and clear shot to you)?


Also, if that trap design becomes common and somehow does work, it won't be long before a continual-flamed rock tied to a string is employed on all such architectural flourishes. "Oops, my detect magic isn't pinging the rock. Must be a trap there."

You know you can just make a hole cover inside of it with lead and not put trap inside to make those pesky adventurers waste time/resources without gaining XP.

Hmm just making holes would slow the adventurers considerably. A section of wall 10 ft long and 5 ft high can have about 50 1 sqare ft holes.... it will take about 5 minutes to check if any of them are detect magic proof. And even then you can't really know if there is a trap or if it's just a section of wall designed to make you waste resources...

[Blkmge]

Bard + Major Illusion + Dancing Lights
One man rock band.

[nedz]

Ghost Sound + Dancing Lights = Disco

[Deophaun]

It works fine in narrow places (i.e. the kind of places you'd want to trap).
First, there are places that aren't narrow that you want to trap, and also things that you'd also like to trap. So, I direct you to my initial statement regarding lead lined traps, and then I ask why you think you can disprove it by presenting a specific application.

Isn't it the other way round (trap having concealment and clear shot to you)?
No. In order for that to be the case, the trap would have to be flush with the wall, which would make your lead lining pointless.

You know you can just make a hole cover inside of it with lead and not put trap inside to make those pesky adventurers waste time/resources without gaining XP.
Yes. And you can also hire 30 dragons to protect it, have the whole building explode when the treasure is taken, or go back and time and kill the party before they were ever born. I, however, like to assume some level of practicality. There are plenty of real good reasons to line a house or dungeon completely with lead that do not involve traps, and yet it doesn't happen except when you're dealing with a poor DM.

[ahenobarbi]

Deophaun,
I think using Detect Magic to detect magic traps shouldn't work. Out of game it's too much return for 0 level slot. In game if it did work magic trap creators would know it and would act to prevent it. Even if you can't prevent people from detecting traps with Detect Magic you can make it so time consuming none will bother. Thus I think it's better to just agree it doesn't work and have fun.

On making Detect magic useless to detect traps: for narrow (or low) passage I have shown you how to do it. If you trap magical items it's not a problem (the item has it's own aura anyways so Detect Magic won't help). If you want to trap non-magical item it must be really important/unique so I guess you should be able to afford Magic Aura to hide the trap. I'm afraid no kind of trap will work properly in open space.

[Gildedragon]

@ahenobarbi: I disagree. It is a pretty decent use of a 0 level spell slot, or rather it really isn't worth a higher slot due to the ease by which it is countered. If anything cantrips are too scarce in 3.5.
4 is all you ever get (as a wizard)
That certain cantrips are still useful at higher levels is not a failing but a show of a well designed low-power spell

[Deophaun]

I think using Detect Magic to detect magic traps shouldn't work.
I don't play in your games so I don't care what you think. I care about RAW. RAW, it works. There's a homebrew forum to talk about what you think.

In game if it did work magic trap creators would know it and would act to prevent it.
This fallacy is so prevalent it should have its own name. The fact is, avoiding the effects of detect magic requires the expenditure of additional resources. That makes traps more complex, more expensive, or more selective in where they can be placed. Either way, someone who is busy protecting against detect magic is going to have fewer traps, which means detect magic works even if the characters aren't using it.

On making Detect magic useless to detect traps: for narrow (or low) passage I have shown you how to do it.
The forum must have eaten that post then, as all I saw was a trap that was detected while you had partial cover. Please repost.

If you trap magical items it's not a problem (the item has it's own aura anyways so Detect Magic won't help).
Provided that the auras match. And yes, you will know that there are multiple auras on the item, unless one is significantly weaker than the other. Generally a strong necromantic aura is enough for people to know something's trapped, or at least should be handled with care.

If you want to trap non-magical item it must be really important/unique
False. See: Fire Trap. See: Shadow Trap. See: Explosive Runes.

BTW: You do realize that a wizard must be concentrating to detect magic, right? That's a standard action gone each round, and no casting. What are you doing in your dungeon that's allowing the wizard to do this the whole time? Why have you left a trap alone with nothing else to threaten the PCs?

[Zherog]

See: Explosive Runes.

I'd really rather not. I don't have fire resistance. ;)

[Arcanist]

Also, the fact that there's a black hole in your detection might also raise alarm bells, depending on how you play detect magic.

Now that is just silly. This would imply that when a person cast Detect Magic, when they look down into the dirt, all they see is darkness. It would be safe to assume that they just see what is naturally there, which would be, just dirt. When you look around an object and see magical auras around everything, but one object you are very well entitled to be as paranoid as you want.

Personally I enjoy using Lead Lining from CS. For a cheap 10gp you can thwart any magical detection.


I'd really rather not. I don't have fire resistance. ;)

It does Force damage :smallconfused: ... Are you sure you don't mean Fire Trap?

[Deophaun]

Now that is just silly. This would imply that when a person cast Detect Magic, when they look down into the dirt, all they see is darkness.
No, that is what you infer. I implied no such thing :P

If you imagine that, in a world with plentiful magic, there is always some sort of background magical radiation, then a lead lining would be tipped off by the fact that the normal BMR is nonexistent in that area. Instead of the usual dark gray magic aura, they see nothing.

As I said, it depends on how you play it.

[Zherog]

It does Force damage :smallconfused: ... Are you sure you don't mean Fire Trap?

So much for a wisecrack...

No, I meant I didn't want to read read/see explosive runes because I didn't want to blow up. I forgot it did force damage rather than fire.

[ahenobarbi]

I don't play in your games so I don't care what you think. I care about RAW. RAW, it works. There's a homebrew forum to talk about what you think.

Well I thought that this thread is more of "practical advice thread". So my answer was (or was supposed to be) "yes detect magic will detect traps by RAW but you don't really want to rely on it in most games"


This fallacy is so prevalent it should have its own name. The fact is, avoiding the effects of detect magic requires the expenditure of additional resources. That makes traps more complex, more expensive, or more selective in where they can be placed. Either way, someone who is busy protecting against detect magic is going to have fewer traps, which means detect magic works even if the characters aren't using it.

I think it's a reasonable action. Because detect magic and defending against detect magic are very cheap compared to magic trap costs. It's like buying lock for frond door of your house.


The forum must have eaten that post then, as all I saw was a trap that was detected while you had partial cover. Please repost.

Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) don't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) really (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIV.htm) care (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) about partial cover.


Provided that the auras match. And yes, you will know that there are multiple auras on the item, unless one is significantly weaker than the other. Generally a strong necromantic aura is enough for people to know something's trapped, or at least should be handled with care.


I think you have good spells to make a trap in every school of magic (so auras can match).


False. See: Fire Trap. See: Shadow Trap. See: Explosive Runes.

How do you tell a difference between a Fire-trapped chest (by druid) and a chest with potion of Hide from Animals with Detect Magic? And why do you trap random insignificant items? And what do you do with knowledge that "this chest has faint abjuration aura? Open with 11ft pole? Why not do that without casting detect magic (and save a spell)?


BTW: You do realize that a wizard must be concentrating to detect magic, right? That's a standard action gone each round, and no casting. What are you doing in your dungeon that's allowing the wizard to do this the whole time? Why have you left a trap alone with nothing else to threaten the PCs?

I assumed that using Detect Magic to try to find magical traps in a situation where there is some other threat is so useless (because of the time it takes) there is no need to discuss it.


I'd really rather not. I don't have fire resistance. ;)

Don't worry it wouldn't help you explosive runes deal force damage :smallwink:

[ahenobarbi]

If you imagine that, in a world with plentiful magic, there is always some sort of background magical radiation, then a lead lining would be tipped off by the fact that the normal BMR is nonexistent in that area. Instead of the usual dark gray magic aura, they see nothing.

Even if there was some background magical radiation (which has no RAW basis :elan:) it would be blocked a lot.

[Hecuba]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Most desalination process actually use the opposite, distillation. When sea water freezes, the salt is still in solution so you'd have to pick out the ions. Or use some kind of reverse osmosis.

Fractional freezing works too: it's just that, in practice, heat pumps (i.e. freezers) are significantly less energy efficient than heat sources. Because of this, it's only an efficient method if you're in a place where the ambient temperature is already at or near freezing.

[Deophaun]

Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) don't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) really (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIV.htm) care (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) about partial cover.
I need to ask a question here. What part of "it depends on the trap" did you not understand? Seriously, which word? Those were the very first words in my response to you. Did you not read them?

You are intent on arguing something that was never stated in this thread. As such, I will cease this discussion with you.

[Arcanist]

No, that is what you infer. I implied no such thing :P

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you stated that casting Detect magic on a sheet of lead or 3ft of dirt would be considered a "black hole". Meaning that any such instance of a Detect spell being thwarted would yield a clearly visible Darkness in place of the obscured object. Such an implication would make it so that effects like nondetection or mindblank would be rendered ineffective since the object would obviously not be detected and would appear as a "black hole".


If you imagine that, in a world with plentiful magic, there is always some sort of background magical radiation, then a lead lining would be tipped off by the fact that the normal BMR is nonexistent in that area. Instead of the usual dark gray magic aura, they see nothing.

BMR isn't an actual thing. I suppose if you believe that magic was casted everywhere at some point then that is indeed moot and your next topic has some backing to it.


As I said, it depends on how you play it.

See above.

[ahenobarbi]

I need to ask a question here. What part of "it depends on the trap" did you not understand? Seriously, which word? Those were the very first words in my response to you. Did you not read them?

You are intent on arguing something that was never stated in this thread. As such, I will cease this discussion with you.

Well maybe you could rephrase your point so I can understand it. I thought your point was that using Detect Magic to find magical traps is a reasonable strategy. I was arguing against that. If that's not what you meant... please tell me what you did mean.

[Deophaun]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you stated that casting Detect magic on a sheet of lead or 3ft of dirt would be considered a "black hole". Meaning that any such instance of a Detect spell being thwarted would yield a clearly visible Darkness in place of the obscured object. And that is your inference. It is not an implication. Another inference would be that you would feel a suddenly pull from the object and are subjected to thousands of Gs of acceleration towards it, only to be spaghettified and crushed by a singularity. An inference, but not an implication, because the term black hole was used as a metaphor.

Such an implication would make it so that effects like nondetection or mindblank would be rendered ineffective since the object would obviously not be detected and would appear as a "black hole".
Not at all. If you have mindblank and I sit across from you and use detect thoughts, I get nothing. It fails, as per the spell. How has that rendered mindblank useless? If I scry on you, and you have mindblank on, the scrying fails. How is mindblank rendered useless? If I scry in that area, I cannot detect you. Period. That's what it says in the spell. I don't have anything to go by that you are there or not, so you can't even leave any kind of hole that would allow me to detect you.

Now, versus detect magic? Lead blocks detect magic. It does not say that you cannot detect items behind lead, it says lead blocks the spell. That's a different mechanism.

BMR isn't an actual thing.Which would be why I said "it depends how you play it." As you stated, it has some basis in the rules as auras tend to linger, so it is neither required nor precluded by RAW.

[Deophaun]

Well maybe you could rephrase your point so I can understand it. I thought your point was that using Detect Magic to find magical traps is a reasonable strategy. I was arguing against that. If that's not what you meant... please tell me what you did mean.
It is a reasonable strategy, just as hitting each square with a 10-foot-poll is a reasonable strategy to detect traps. Each will work on some traps (acid arrow and burning hands traps, for instance, which are right in the DMG, even fireball) but not on others. That is why I said "depends on the trap."

[ahenobarbi]

It is a reasonable strategy, just as hitting each square with a 10-foot-poll is a reasonable strategy to detect traps. Each will work on some traps (acid arrow and burning hands traps, for instance, which are right in the DMG, even fireball) but not on others. That is why I said "depends on the trap."

Ok. Well I don't think it's a very good strategy. As it has high action cost, costs you a spell slot and won't work on many traps. Personally I prefer to house rule that it doesn't work. Because if it did work my character would use it and I would be bored.

And make that poking pole 11ft long :smallwink:

[Gildedragon]

Ok. Well I don't think it's a very good strategy. As it has high action cost, costs you a spell slot and won't work on many traps. Personally I prefer to house rule that it doesn't work. Because if it did work my character would use it and I would be bored.

And make that poking pole 11ft long :smallwink:

What isn't a good idea: tapping everything with an 10' pole? or using detect magic to find magical traps? Because to me both sound sound. Players should have the tools to find and bypass obstacles.
Otherwise you might as well say the paladin can't use detect evil on people, using clarivoyance to scout ahead is verboten, and rogues don't get to disarm magical traps with non-magical tools.

And what about your co-players. If as a PC you don't like DM cool, but why nerf (needlessly) other's capacity?
Lastly, knowing there is a trap doesn't mean it's been overcome. Allowing PC's to be able to know what they're up against is sporting; and with the spot DC (and activation methods) of many magical traps DM is vital

[nedz]

Assuming that you're not trying to hide your trap in a magic wall etc.

If BMR exists then the Lead/Dirt will contain the same amount of BMR as the wall; or at the very least you could easily arrange for that to be the case.

If BMR does not exist then the same is true.

Either way: there is no black hole.

Detect Magic can be used to find some magical traps: it's just not very good at it, and can be countered quite easily in a number of ways. It is also awkward to use since it requires concentration.

[Deophaun]

If BMR exists then the Lead/Dirt will contain the same amount of BMR as the wall; or at the very least you could easily arrange for that to be the case.
No, you couldn't, as the amount of "BMR" in the lead sheet would have to vary in relation to the distance of the source of the detect magic spell. A lead sheet at the extreme range of detect magic doesn't block much BMR, if any, while a lead sheet five feet away blocks almost all of it. Putting a set level of magical radiation in the lead sheet is still going to produce an anomalous reading. Then you have to wonder about what happens over time with repeated triggering of the trap, which would up the ambient magical energy. That would be some quite fancy magic to accomplish something so subtle, at which point you're better off setting a spell clock with Nystul's Magic Aura on your trap.

But, we are applying real world physics to magic, and cat girls are struggling against the genocide.

[Getsugaru]

My Mystic Ranger/Scout Skirmisher once got pinned down behind a tree in a church courtyard by a gnome wizard, half-orc fighter, dwarf cleric, and one other enemy that I can't remember right now. The Gnome had set the tree and the courtyard on fire, and I only had 0-level spells remaining: Launch Bolt, Dancing Lights, Create Water, and Prestidigitation. I used launch bolt to attack/draw the attention of the half-orc. Then I cast create water (and was high enough caster level) to put out a small portion of the fire, giving me 2 escape routes. I used dancing lights to replicate the effect of the light of the fire shining off my breastplate, and sent it down an alleyway. I forget how I used prestidigitation, but long story short, I fooled them into chasing a dancing lights spell down an alleyway, allowing me to escape. And all without anything other than 0-level spells!

[nedz]

No, you couldn't, as the amount of "BMR" in the lead sheet would have to vary in relation to the distance of the source of the detect magic spell. A lead sheet at the extreme range of detect magic doesn't block much BMR, if any, while a lead sheet five feet away blocks almost all of it. Putting a set level of magical radiation in the lead sheet is still going to produce an anomalous reading. Then you have to wonder about what happens over time with repeated triggering of the trap, which would up the ambient magical energy. That would be some quite fancy magic to accomplish something so subtle, at which point you're better off setting a spell clock with Nystul's Magic Aura on your trap.

But, we are applying real world physics to magic, and cat girls are struggling against the genocide.

It's just a camouflage problem. Worst case: cover the whole wall in lead. More reasonably use 'dirt' with the same BMR tone as the wall.

[Gildedragon]

My Mystic Ranger/Scout Skirmisher once got pinned down behind a tree in a church courtyard by a gnome wizard, half-orc fighter, dwarf cleric, and one other enemy that I can't remember right now. The Gnome had set the tree and the courtyard on fire, and I only had 0-level spells remaining: Launch Bolt, Dancing Lights, Create Water, and Prestidigitation. I used launch bolt to attack/draw the attention of the half-orc. Then I cast create water (and was high enough caster level) to put out a small portion of the fire, giving me 2 escape routes. I used dancing lights to replicate the effect of the light of the fire shining off my breastplate, and sent it down an alleyway. I forget how I used prestidigitation, but long story short, I fooled them into chasing a dancing lights spell down an alleyway, allowing me to escape. And all without anything other than 0-level spells!

Neat. Clever technique. I'd have gone through the new route.

[Wookie-ranger]

Interesting thread! Until the discussion about "magic background radiation".
The only thing that I found about this is in the description of Detect Magic itself. Its called a "Lingering Aura" and is a maximum of 1d6 days, and this is only for artifacts and epic magic.
I do not want to offend anybody, but if this is not RAW then there is no need to discuss this.

To Contribute to the actual topic of this thread, picture the following:
Be a Bard;
Be a Large creature (with Str29);
Can cast fly;
Can cast enlarge person;
now now the Bard is Huge with Str 31.
He can carry up to his maximum load while Flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm).
His Maximum load (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) is 5600lb (1400 for Str and x4 for being huge)
Hi can also Lift this over his head with two hands.
Casts Summon Instrument for a Huge, 10ft long, 5ft wide, 5000lb saxophone. :smallbiggrin: Bomber Bard

[Hecuba]

I do not want to offend anybody, but if this is not RAW then there is no need to discuss this.

There is no need to discuss it either way.


Which would be why I said "it depends how you play it." As you stated, it has some basis in the rules as auras tend to linger, so it is neither required nor precluded by RAW.

The fact that the rule you are creating can have a reasonable degree of internal consistency does not change the fact that you're creating the rule.

Put another way, it's good homebrew, but it's still homebrew.

[Malroth]

Silent image via Gnome Illusionist substution levels

[ahenobarbi]

What isn't a good idea: tapping everything with an 10' pole? or using detect magic to find magical traps? Because to me both sound sound

Using detect magic. It works only if trap creator didn't bother to hide it properly. It makes about as much sense as setting setting Search DC to 10 for all traps (so any character with non-negative Search Mod will find it if it's looking).

[nedz]

Interesting thread! Until the discussion about "magic background radiation".
The only thing that I found about this is in the description of Detect Magic itself. Its called a "Lingering Aura" and is a maximum of 1d6 days, and this is only for artifacts and epic magic.
I do not want to offend anybody, but if this is not RAW then there is no need to discuss this.

There is no need to discuss it either way.
I was just pointing out the holes in the homebrew. No need to discuss, but was fun.



To Contribute to the actual topic of this thread, picture the following:
Be a Bard;
Be a Large creature (with Str29);
Can cast fly;
Can cast enlarge person;
now now the Bard is Huge with Str 31.
He can carry up to his maximum load while Flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm).
His Maximum load (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) is 5600lb (1400 for Str and x4 for being huge)
Hi can also Lift this over his head with two hands.
Casts Summon Instrument for a Huge, 10ft long, 5ft wide, 5000lb saxophone. :smallbiggrin: Bomber Bard
Grand Piano is funnier :smalltongue:

Silent image via Gnome Illusionist substitution levels
Or the Natural Trickster feat from RoS p143 — Disguise Self, Silent Image or Ventriloquism as SLAs. No need to be a caster even.

[Getsugaru]

Grand Piano is funnier :smalltongue:

Agreed. :smallamused:

[Zubrowka74]

Fractional freezing works too: it's just that, in practice, heat pumps (i.e. freezers) are significantly less energy efficient than heat sources. Because of this, it's only an efficient method if you're in a place where the ambient temperature is already at or near freezing.

But isn't that a progressive process, like in the case of "freeze distillation" ? Don't know if you have that much control over the ray. I guess you could pull it off directly in a large body of water, freezing only one spot.

[nedz]

Two containers: one empty, one full
Freeze Zap the liquid
Mage Hand the ice across
Profit

[Deophaun]

The fact that the rule you are creating can have a reasonable degree of internal consistency does not change the fact that you're creating the rule.
People sure do like to argue.

[ahenobarbi]

On topic: you can use 0th level spells to qualify for some things (need to cast X spells of rare type, must cast spells in some way).

Off topic:

But isn't that a progressive process, like in the case of "freeze distillation" ? Don't know if you have that much control over the ray. I guess you could pull it off directly in a large body of water, freezing only one spot.

You can collect water when its unfreezing. Crush the ice (to improve effectiveness). Initially you'll get saltier water (discard it) later you will get less salty water (may need more work).


People sure do like to argue.

That's the point of online forums :smallwink:

[Wookie-ranger]

Grand Piano is funnier :smalltongue:

I KNOW! That's what i told my DM too, but he pointed out the that it said "Handheld instrument"
Oh well, I guess "someone" has not heard about the rule-of-cool before.

so I tried to find a the biggest handheld instrument that is also kind of heavy.
http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/jaysmonster.jpg

[Threadnaught]

I think using Detect Magic to detect magic traps shouldn't work. Out of game it's too much return for 0 level slot.

Create Water, 2 Gallons per Caster Level per casting.

Get to level 20, cast it a few times and you've got yourself a lake. Kyogre would be so proud.

[TuggyNE]

Create Water, 2 Gallons per Caster Level per casting.

Get to level 20, cast it a few times and you've got yourself a lake. Kyogre would be so proud.

A day's worth of orisons for a Cleric comes to 240 gallons, 32 cu ft, or 0.000735 acre-feet. Smallest. Lake. Ever.

[Gildedragon]

Not if -all- your slots are cantrips.

[Chilingsworth]

Or you happen to be playing Pathfinder (and have infinite cantrips/orisions.)

EDIT: With infinite orisons, you could make 192,000 gallons per eight-hour "working day." At CL 20

[TuggyNE]

Not if -all- your slots are cantrips.

Hmm, without any metamagic to increase yield this is still going to be ineffective; I'm estimating ~72 slots total with Wis 30, which comes to 2880 gal, 385 cu ft or 0.00882 acre-feet. Still terribly small: 10'x10'x3.85' deep would contain it.

For comparison, an Olympic-standard swimming pool has around 660,000 gallons, or a little over 2.02 acre-feet. A "lake" that has only a few thousandths the volume of a large swimming pool is pretty feeble, no? :smallwink:


Or you happen to be playing Pathfinder (and have infinite cantrips/orisions.)

EDIT: With infinite orisons, you could make 192,000 gallons per eight-hour "working day." At CL 20

Neither of these are "a few" castings. :smalltongue:

[Gildedragon]

So create water: not that useful if you're trying to fill an olympic pool... unless you're in pathfinder
On the other hand, create water: still enough to drown in.

[Jormengand]

Use Arcane Mark to write "I prepared Explosive Runes this morning." Always fun.