[EXALTED] What were the Primordials' Crimes?

[TimeWizard]

I know that the Exalted killed most of them so the UCS et al. could get their hands on the Games of Divinity, but were the Primordials actually bad at what they did? Were they worse than the hedonistic First Age Solars?

I'm asking this because it's my turn as ST and I don't know much about how the Neverborn governed, and whether I could truthfully point out that the Primordials were doing a better job than the Solars. I know that the Neverborn (and maybe the Yozi) are responsible for the Great Curse.

[Tavar]

Well, here we come into a couple problematic areas. The Late Era Solar Deliberative was a bad time, quite possibly directly comparable to the Primordial run Creation. But that time period did not last too long, and the Primordials were pretty bad.

In essence, I'd say that the Primrodial's crime was essentially being lazy. They wanted a way to keep the Fair Folk at bay, so they made Creation. Creation needed a way to defend and regulate itself, so they made the gods. Now, they likely could have made non-self aware beings, but that would have take much more work. So they made things self aware and then enslaved them, which was much easier. This enslavement seems to have lasted so long that the period between the End of the Primordial War and the current day can be seen as a well deserved Vacation, at least to some gods.

They also regularly ran amok through Creation, killing many, made creations and then banished them below the earth when they were bored with them, etc.

I don't necessarily think they were worse than some of the First Age Solars, but they were doing it for far, far longer.

[Xefas]

Well, the Primordials aren't exactly uniform in their actions. The Ebon Dragon, Isidoros, and Kimbery are good examples of Primordials that probably caused a lot of pain and suffering for the mortals in the Time of Glory, and that could be considered their 'crime'. Qaf and Cytherea are good examples of Primordials that, in all likelihood, stayed out of mortal affairs, and whose only 'crime' was protecting their siblings' lives in the War. The same goes all the way down the Soul Hierarchies. Blood Apes are going to be almost unanimously horrible people. But Neomah aren't cited as being any less benevolent than your average human.

Just as there were likely some prefectures in the First Age that weren't dystopian crapsacks, there were likely some dominions in the Time of Glory that were reasonable places to live, where humans, Dragon Kings, First Circles, and other races all lived, and worked, and loved, and died peacefully. It depends who was running them.

But, make no mistake. The Primordial War was as much about punishing the wicked Primordials as the American Civil War was about abolishing slavery. Sure, that was probably an ancillary concern, and it makes a really shiny candy-coated exterior to put out there in your history books. But the real reason is always about politics and power. The Gods wanted to be the head honchos. They wanted to do none of the work, and get all the glory and heroin, and the Primordials were standing in their way. Nothing more.

[Tavar]

But, make no mistake. The Primordial War was as much about punishing the wicked Primordials as the American Civil War was about abolishing slavery. Sure, that was probably an ancillary concern, and it makes a really shiny candy-coated exterior to put out there in your history books. But the real reason is always about politics and power. The Gods wanted to be the head honchos. They wanted to do none of the work, and get all the glory and heroin, and the Primordials were standing in their way. Nothing more.

Let's not drag real world historical examples into this, especially ones that are very, very, very problematic.

As for your assertions about the gods: I find it very typical for people to say that the Primordials were a diverse group, but the gods were not. Why should this be the case? Especially with all the evidence that the gods were not this.

Also, their actions after the war would counter your statement that they didn't want to do the work: they only somewhat recently stopped. About 700 years ago, vs the, what, 5000+ before that?

What they wanted was to stop being the disposable, tormented slaves. Something the Primordials designed them to be.

[omegalith]

but were the Primordials actually bad at what they did?

Not as such: They are automatically nigh-omnipotent and near perfect within their individual themes: They're just blind to ideas outside said themes such as "Maybe smaller entities deserve any form of respect whatsoever".


Were they worse than the hedonistic First Age Solars?

They're portrayed as being so now, but this is after five millenia of imprisonment and a round of lobotomies.


I'm asking this because it's my turn as ST and I don't know much about how the Neverborn governed, and whether I could truthfully point out that the Primordials were doing a better job than the Solars. I know that the Neverborn (and maybe the Yozi) are responsible for the Great Curse.

The Primordials were indeed doing a better job than the Solars, if maintaining the integrity of reality is your definition of doing a better job.

The early First Age, before the curse really kicked in and when Autocthon and Sol hadn't gone into seclusion yet was probably the single moment when sentient life as a whole (besides the Fae, at any rate) had the best standards of fair opportunity and good living conditions.

Though the whole "Three Spheres" thing and the giant holes of pain and death starting to tug the world into a spiral towards oblivion were new problems.


If you want to argue things were better under the Primordials, play down SWLIHN's tantrum as her snapping under unfair pressures, play up that the Neverborn situation and Malfeas and Adorjan's madness are proof that screwing with Primordials is a terrible idea, and argue that a sort of "Gold Faction Style" solution would have been better: Persistent, respectful diplomacy to get through to Theion, whilst the Gods hold passive strikes rallying around Sol taking a Ghandi-like figure.

[omegalith]

As for your assertions about the gods: I find it very typical for people to say that the Primordials were a diverse group, but the gods were not. Why should this be the case? Especially with all the evidence that the gods were not this.

That's easy: Their diversity wasn't particularly important under the situation of being oppressed slaves, given the lack of opportunity to express it. You got a handful of loyalists and neutrals, but apparently those weren't notably large factions.

Meanwhile, whilst guys like the Ebon Dragon, Kimbery, Mardukth and Adrian were horrible jerks and Theion, Cecelyne and SWLIHN were perpetuating the horribly lopsided system... You also had more distant ones like Qaf, Oramos, Cythera and He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word, and ones that were merely dangerously indifferent such as Isidoros and Szoreny.

...Which mattered more, as they all unified under their King's banner once the uprising started. They got Auto and Gaia on-side, so it's not like reforming a few more would be completely impossible.

[Gensh]

As for your assertions about the gods: I find it very typical for people to say that the Primordials were a diverse group, but the gods were not. Why should this be the case? Especially with all the evidence that the gods were not this.

I believe the gods get a bad rap mainly because their rallying cry was in regards to taking the GoD rather than freeing themselves. Sol gathered them to discuss that rather than anything else. It wasn't until later in 2e that they were changed from indifferent to mortals who weren't their champions to actually liking them. Conversely, each titan is a world unto himself - they cannot be grouped save in the broadest strokes. Of course the gods are as diverse in viewpoint as humans, but for the sake of the GoD, the rebels united and like the Bronze Faction would later do to the Gold, killed all of their own dissenters.


Also, their actions after the war would counter your statement that they didn't want to do the work: they only somewhat recently stopped. About 700 years ago, vs the, what, 5000+ before that?

Not necessarily so. During the First Age, Sol did at least a little bit of ruling, and they had to put up with however many Exalted were actually concerned with running Creation right. Even during the Shogunate, they would have to work lest Sidereal-guided or even independent DBs mess their faces up. With the large-scale fracturing of the political structure alongside the Crusagion, they were given much more room to goof off.


What they wanted was to stop being the disposable, tormented slaves. Something the Primordials designed them to be.

Again, their rallying cry was taking the Games for themselves. And while I dislike the way the end of the edition headed, it's canon that their being slaves was the Dragon Shadow's fault. Without him, all non-deva life on Creation would effectively be automatons.


Not as such: They are automatically nigh-omnipotent and near perfect within their individual themes: They're just blind to ideas outside said themes such as "Maybe smaller entities deserve any form of respect whatsoever".

This is the key to Primordial sympathy - their only interactions were with each other and the mostly-fictional raksha. For the most part, they don't even care about their own first circle. Why then should they care about any other creatures? Someone would have to teach them through their own themes. Instead, the gods and Exalted immediately turned to murder. Certainly more expedient on the "let's not get crushed by Isidoros tomorrow" front, but a poor decision in the long run.



The Primordials were indeed doing a better job than the Solars, if maintaining the integrity of reality is your definition of doing a better job.

Some try to counter this point with the fact that something like half the known Primordials lay waste to everything just by passing through; all the same, any given Primordial could undo the damage with minimal effort. As has been said, they were simply lazy and let the gods do it most of the time. Compare that Solars created shadowlands just to study them, and that only the Adamant Circle Sorcerers among them could close them. They usually didn't.

By and large, the Primordials weren't good for what other life there was in Creation, but they were certainly better than the Exalted, who: created shadowlands, destroyed the Lintha Empire during peacetime, forced Autochthon to maim their longtime allies the Jadeborn, used protoshinmaic vortices as quick and easy power sources, etc, etc.

[TimeWizard]

So, they were apathetic jerks who routinely shrugged off difficult chores onto their enslaved minions, but they were the best at actually keeping away the creation destroying Wyld.

So if they Wyld were overtaking creation... They'd have been totally in the right and the solars would have been the irresponsible upstart jerks?

[Tavar]

I believe the gods get a bad rap mainly because their rallying cry was in regards to taking the GoD rather than freeing themselves. Sol gathered them to discuss that rather than anything else. It wasn't until later in 2e that they were changed from indifferent to mortals who weren't their champions to actually liking them. Conversely, each titan is a world unto himself - they cannot be grouped save in the broadest strokes. Of course the gods are as diverse in viewpoint as humans, but for the sake of the GoD, the rebels united and like the Bronze Faction would later do to the Gold, killed all of their own dissenters.
Can't be grouped except in the broadest strokes. You mean, perhaps, like what happened in the war? The Titans had two groups in the War: those who sided with the Rebels and those who didn't.

That looks pretty similar to the division of the gods.


Not necessarily so. During the First Age, Sol did at least a little bit of ruling, and they had to put up with however many Exalted were actually concerned with running Creation right. Even during the Shogunate, they would have to work lest Sidereal-guided or even independent DBs mess their faces up. With the large-scale fracturing of the political structure alongside the Crusagion, they were given much more room to goof off.
So...your argument against my position is to confirm my position(700 years ago is about when the Contagion hit...)


This is the key to Primordial sympathy - their only interactions were with each other and the mostly-fictional raksha. For the most part, they don't even care about their own first circle. Why then should they care about any other creatures? Someone would have to teach them through their own themes. Instead, the gods and Exalted immediately turned to murder. Certainly more expedient on the "let's not get crushed by Isidoros tomorrow" front, but a poor decision in the long run.
The only interactions besides, oh, the Lintha, the Darkbrood, large amounts of causal death and destruction, yes.

And it's very much not clear that trying to talk with them would have worked. In fact, it's probably much like the Gold/Bronze Prophecy. The Gold might have worked, maybe, but was unlikely, and if it failed that was it, game over. The Bronze was much more likely to succeed, and while it was not perfect it was a much more sane plan. Made worse by the fact that, in this case, the consequences of their action were even less likely to be known: they could not know that the Primordials could not actually die, leading to the creation of the Underworld, nor about the Curse, or anything else. So, perhaps a poor decision with hindsight, but not necessarily one with the information that they had.

Some try to counter this point with the fact that something like half the known Primordials lay waste to everything just by passing through; all the same, any given Primordial could undo the damage with minimal effort. As has been said, they were simply lazy and let the gods do it most of the time. Compare that Solars created shadowlands just to study them, and that only the Adamant Circle Sorcerers among them could close them. They usually didn't.
False: mortals can close Shadow Lands. It's a somewhat difficult process for them, and it is very long term, but it's possible. Exalted would likely have an easier time with it.

Adamant Sorcerers are the ones who can close it within a day, however.

Of course, there's also the issue that Shadowlands did not seem to be a threat to Creation, not until very recently, so I'm not sure why you list that as a large negative.


By and large, the Primordials weren't good for what other life there was in Creation, but they were certainly better than the Exalted, who: created shadowlands, destroyed the Lintha Empire during peacetime, forced Autochthon to maim their longtime allies the Jadeborn, used protoshinmaic vortices as quick and easy power sources, etc, etc.
Source on them destroying the Lintha during peacetime?

And source saying that the Darkbrood doesn't apparently exist? Or that counters what information was released in the Daystar articles?

I'd question the issue with Protoshinmaic vortices. Yes, they're dangerous, but only if you suddenly lose access to the Solars, and it is noted that they weren't exactly in common usage.


So, they were apathetic jerks who routinely shrugged off difficult chores onto their enslaved minions, but they were the best at actually keeping away the creation destroying Wyld.

So if they Wyld were overtaking creation... They'd have been totally in the right and the solars would have been the irresponsible upstart jerks?
Not quite. It'd largely apply to the entire Exalted host in that case, and it would assume that the continuance of Creation(and not the people or things on it) is the primary goal.

And even then...well, there's the fact that last World Shaking Fair Folk Incursion was met with the Grid, and turned the Fair Folk into refugees. Due to a Solar anti-fair folk measure.

[Story Time]

Re: [EXALTED] What Were The Primordials' Crimes?

The canon answer to this question was that the Primordials were just being them-selves. They were so distant and alien that their decisions were difficult to comprehend by Mortal standards.


For an example, think of how humans could pull apart insects ( like ants ) for fun and for scientific investigation. Humans, and especially children, wouldn't think much of it. But what if the ants were given the power to fight back? What if the ants had...feelings? What if they thought that wanton destruction and tyrannical ruler-ship over their populace was wrong?


...metaphorically speaking, this is what happened. The insects were given power by Autochthon and Gaia to fight back against those that could destroy them. To make a very broad generic statement, the Primordials probably didn't even realize what they were doing was wrong. They thought destruction was fun. It's rather obvious from the Second Edition material that the defeated Primordials caused immense amounts of darkness and suffering in the time before the Primordial War. This was long epochs before the Incarnae were constructed.


...now the real question is whether the GameMaster is going to stick to that story or not... My recommendation is to do your own thing. :smallsmile:

[TimeWizard]

Not quite. It'd largely apply to the entire Exalted host in that case, and it would assume that the continuance of Creation(and not the people or things on it) is the primary goal.

That's the angle I would ply in game, similar to a coup-de-tat that allows enemy nations to invade a country.



And even then...well, there's the fact that last World Shaking Fair Folk Incursion was met with the Grid, and turned the Fair Folk into refugees. Due to a Solar anti-fair folk measure.
Did the First Age Solar build the Grid? I wasn't clear on that. And would that have been necessary at all if the Primordials still ruled? I get that they held off the Chaos, but I never get an idea of how. Did they fight it, or was their just existing too powerful for the Fair Folk to invade?

[Tavar]

The Solar's and Autochthon built the grid.

As for Primoridals, some Primordials fought it, but only when it amused them to do so. Mainly, that's what the gods(especially ones like UCS and Luna) were for.

[Gensh]

Can't be grouped except in the broadest strokes. You mean, perhaps, like what happened in the war? The Titans had two groups in the War: those who sided with the Rebels and those who didn't.

That looks pretty similar to the division of the gods.

But for this point, we're not discussing the War in isolation. Indeed, the War forced both titans and gods into one of two camps. I was simply pointing out that between the groups, there's quite the difference between viewpoint spread. Each titan is a world to himself, perfectly independent; gods as singular lifeforms must necessarily fit within a group. Particularly, the rough view a new player would have of the City Malfeas, the Desert Cecelyne, etc vs "the Celestial Bureaucracy," which makes it seem as if it's a unified whole. Hell is a wonderland of sorts, while Heaven is a single city.


So...your argument against my position is to confirm my position(700 years ago is about when the Contagion hit...)

You had said that the gods are not lazy; I pointed out that the only reason why they didn't quit their jobs sooner was because they would have risked facepunch.


The only interactions besides, oh, the Lintha, the Darkbrood, large amounts of causal death and destruction, yes.

Created beings, even lesser than their most insignificant progeny. Only each other, the raksha, and oddities like Ishiika come from outside their own purview and thus would have to be analyzed as independent things. An examination of the Lintha, for instance, boils down to them being something Kimbery made and is rather fond of - at best, they'd try not to destroy too many if they didn't want to get on her bad side.


And it's very much not clear that trying to talk with them would have worked. In fact, it's probably much like the Gold/Bronze Prophecy. The Gold might have worked, maybe, but was unlikely, and if it failed that was it, game over. The Bronze was much more likely to succeed, and while it was not perfect it was a much more sane plan. Made worse by the fact that, in this case, the consequences of their action were even less likely to be known: they could not know that the Primordials could not actually die, leading to the creation of the Underworld, nor about the Curse, or anything else. So, perhaps a poor decision with hindsight, but not necessarily one with the information that they had.

My complaint is that we're never given any sort of information about it because the victors destroyed all records and mercilessly hunted down the so-called "forbidden" gods. It wouldn't waste so much wordcount to put in a throwaway line that Sol tried doing the Compassionate/Temperate thing first before killing the millions of innocent deva attached to what would become the Neverborn.


False: mortals can close Shadow Lands. It's a somewhat difficult process for them, and it is very long term, but it's possible. Exalted would likely have an easier time with it.

Doesn't that involve prohibitively expensive amounts salt, though?


Of course, there's also the issue that Shadowlands did not seem to be a threat to Creation, not until very recently, so I'm not sure why you list that as a large negative.

It doesn't matter that the shadowlands weren't a threat until recently. All one has to know is that they lead into the Underworld, which leads into the Labyrinth, which leads to The End. Also that they completely freak out even the Yozis. Closing them would have been a rational preemptive measure.


Source on them destroying the Lintha during peacetime?

Apologies; I can't find it. I fear it may have come from somewhere in DotFA anyway, so I suppose we'll just ignore that.


And source saying that the Darkbrood doesn't apparently exist? Or that counters what information was released in the Daystar articles?

I never said the darkbrood don't exist. As created things, they are irrelevant beyond the fact that the Primordials didn't simply destroy them. This is likely due to laziness, however, so I left it out.


I'd question the issue with Protoshinmaic vortices. Yes, they're dangerous, but only if you suddenly lose access to the Solars, and it is noted that they weren't exactly in common usage.

It's been noted in dev comments that each PSV is the compressed potential for an entire universe. There's not much in the book, no, but apparently, using them is the height of Solar depravity.


Did the First Age Solar build the Grid? I wasn't clear on that. And would that have been necessary at all if the Primordials still ruled? I get that they held off the Chaos, but I never get an idea of how. Did they fight it, or was their just existing too powerful for the Fair Folk to invade?

They did indeed build the RDG. It uses the whole of Creation as a power source, however, so using it in rapid succession is not exactly a good thing. It would be entirely unnecessary in the following situations: 1) at least one combat-focused Primordial was free and constantly on alert (Adrian alone protected Creation in the very beginning); 2) at least one construction-focused Primordial was free and allowed to build an army (not as effective as the first solution, but roughly comparable to having a well-funded Wyld Hunt); 3) Sol would do his blasted job (Sol was created so Adrian could join in the Games).

[Andreaz]

Primordials are too-powerful people with too-alien minds and the complete incapacity to realize their own toys have real feelings. Their very breaths would give life, take life, ruin life. When one of them went on a drunken binge the pole of fire had to be dragged back into creation again and again.
It's kinda difficult to measure pros and cons to the primordials, as you have to establish priorities.

For humanity? Imprisoning the primordials is the best thing that ever happened to them, crazed late-age host and all.

[Tavar]

But for this point, we're not discussing the War in isolation. Indeed, the War forced both titans and gods into one of two camps. I was simply pointing out that between the groups, there's quite the difference between viewpoint spread. Each titan is a world to himself, perfectly independent; gods as singular lifeforms must necessarily fit within a group. Particularly, the rough view a new player would have of the City Malfeas, the Desert Cecelyne, etc vs "the Celestial Bureaucracy," which makes it seem as if it's a unified whole. Hell is a wonderland of sorts, while Heaven is a single city.
I'm not sure such a simplification is warranted by any means. Seems too pat and simplistic.



You had said that the gods are not lazy; I pointed out that the only reason why they didn't quit their jobs sooner was because they would have risked facepunch.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Once the Rules crumbled, and the ones above them were shown not to care, then things crumbled.

Unless you'd care to characterize human beings and workers as inherently utterly lazy and hopeless, I think you're not treating beings the same. Though, I would point out, the Primordials weren't any better, which paints things rather darkly: if the best hope is a bunch of slavers, then the world is pretty dark.



Created beings, even lesser than their most insignificant progeny. Only each other, the raksha, and oddities like Ishiika come from outside their own purview and thus would have to be analyzed as independent things.
What interactions with the Raksha? The only stuff they did to them was repeated killing.

And as for outside their purview, what would you say qualifies for that? Because so far, it seems to anything besides themselves and the Fair Folk, which is incredibly arbitrary.



My complaint is that we're never given any sort of information about it because the victors destroyed all records and mercilessly hunted down the so-called "forbidden" gods. It wouldn't waste so much wordcount to put in a throwaway line that Sol tried doing the Compassionate/Temperate thing first before killing the millions of innocent deva attached to what would become the Neverborn.
The Exalted seemed rather willing to accept turncoats: there was that one Luna took on, as well as the one that was unfortunately not able to be separated from it's 'parent'.

I do find it sadly repetitive that, with little to no information available, you immediately leap to the most Primordial friendly conclusion possible.



Doesn't that involve prohibitively expensive amounts salt, though?
Nope. Simply introducing large amounts of life to the shadow land can do it. Salt also works.



It doesn't matter that the shadowlands weren't a threat until recently. All one has to know is that they lead into the Underworld, which leads into the Labyrinth, which leads to The End. Also that they completely freak out even the Yozis. Closing them would have been a rational preemptive measure.
So, anything connected to something dangerous is automatically bad? Hell, Creation itself is linked to the end. Obviously, under that logic, the solution is to destroy Creation.

Additionally, since Solars could trivially close them, what's the issue? If a problem began to develop, the Solars go and close them, or organize the deliberative to do so. Until then, why stress?



Apologies; I can't find it. I fear it may have come from somewhere in DotFA anyway, so I suppose we'll just ignore that.
I know the segment you're probably thinking of. It wasn't that they destroyed them during peace. It's that they were preparing to destroy them after the Primordial War was over, but Linatha were still prepared to fight them. Just because one war ends does not mean that you are not at war.


I never said the darkbrood don't exist. As created things, they are irrelevant beyond the fact that the Primordials didn't simply destroy them. This is likely due to laziness, however, so I left it out.
So, Exalted are bad because they destroy created Races, but Primordials aren't even though they destroy Created Races. Glad to know you're being reasonable and unbiased here.


It's been noted in dev comments that each PSV is the compressed potential for an entire universe. There's not much in the book, no, but apparently, using them is the height of Solar depravity.
And it's been noted that the reasoning there is complete bull. Basically, the same argument applies to if you ever see someone of the opposite gender and don't have kids with them.

PSV work as cutting edge, dangerously unstable technology, not as atrocities.

Now, if Solars were using them everywhere, then you'd have a point, because it's essentially putting a nuclear bomb everywhere. But they didn't, and while using them for their own personal artifacts was a tad irresponsible, it wasn't too far, as the only way the devices would be dangerous is if the Solars disappeared.

[Gensh]

Ah, how I'd missed the page-stretching debates~


I'm not sure such a simplification is warranted by any means. Seems too pat and simplistic.

That was more or less the point. I'm not saying that is actually how the setting works so much as the above explanation presents of model of how new players tend to characterize the celestial/infernal powers based on my own observations. Yours of course may differ.


I don't think it's quite that simple. Once the Rules crumbled, and the ones above them were shown not to care, then things crumbled.

Unless you'd care to characterize human beings and workers as inherently utterly lazy and hopeless, I think you're not treating beings the same. Though, I would point out, the Primordials weren't any better, which paints things rather darkly: if the best hope is a bunch of slavers, then the world is pretty dark.

It is my belief that all intelligent beings not rigged to some sort of hivemind are inherently selfish and shortsighted. One must consciously apply effort to be otherwise. Some people are capable of motivating themselves; most others require a carrot or a stick - the aforementioned facepunch. Indeed, the Primordials weren't better - each regime throughout Creation's history has been terrible. The crime of the Exalted is that they could have broken the cycle but consciously chose to be selfish and shortsighted.


What interactions with the Raksha? The only stuff they did to them was repeated killing.

To be fair to the Primordials, the raksha started it. And to be fair to the raksha, the Primordials were, by simply being, destroying their natural habitat. It was kill or be killed, and for a Primordial, death was simply impossible.


And as for outside their purview, what would you say qualifies for that? Because so far, it seems to anything besides themselves and the Fair Folk, which is incredibly arbitrary.

A Primordial is incapable of thinking outside of his own Excellency unless he channels a Virtue. Even then, there's no incentive to do so, as he's by-and-large restricted to human feats as opposed to his phenomenal cosmic power. Theion could not accept that there was another King, thus Mardukth was cast down; the raksha were not his subjects or property of his subjects, so they were to be removed from his sight. Everything he could perceive would be cataloged in such a manner, forced into the constraints of his worldview or otherwise destroyed. Created creatures would automatically be assumed to be attached to something - they were the property of one of his subjects or communal property. Such categorization cannot be avoided, so one must either be new and thus be currently undefined or else provide sufficient evidence to be reassigned, just as first circles can earn citizenship.


The Exalted seemed rather willing to accept turncoats: there was that one Luna took on, as well as the one that was unfortunately not able to be separated from it's 'parent'.

Well, discounting Granalkin because Luna can't really be stopped from doing what she wants to do, Inari provides an interesting case. In particular, that the fetich soul rebelled indicates that the unknown Primordial in question did want to turn but was unable to do so for one reason or another. And then the Exalted took the stabby route again.

Now, the death of a Primordial does implode their soul hierarchy, but first circle races are technically not a part of that hierarchy. They would not be destroyed, and can actually be adopted by a Primordial with a similar purview. Nonetheless, there are no canon examples of this, and given the destruction of even the Lintha, I do not expect many survived.


I do find it sadly repetitive that, with little to no information available, you immediately leap to the most Primordial friendly conclusion possible.

I must admit I made a mistake and conflated the Usurped with the Forbidden Gods; it's been a while since I read that passage. Most of the loyalists are not in terrible shape, seeing as how being homeless in Yu-Shan is not that bad as long as you're careful not to get eaten or something. Still, others were confined to tiny their own personal hells, which is an atrocity in and of itself.


So, anything connected to something dangerous is automatically bad? Hell, Creation itself is linked to the end. Obviously, under that logic, the solution is to destroy Creation.

Destroying Creation is Plan D. :smallamused:


Additionally, since Solars could trivially close them, what's the issue? If a problem began to develop, the Solars go and close them, or organize the deliberative to do so. Until then, why stress?

Not trivially; work taking hours or even days. Getting together a concerted effort to do so for more than a brief stint would be like herding cats unless it was a full-blown apocalypse.


I know the segment you're probably thinking of. It wasn't that they destroyed them during peace. It's that they were preparing to destroy them after the Primordial War was over, but Linatha were still prepared to fight them. Just because one war ends does not mean that you are not at war.

What I'm remembering is that the Lintha accepted a ceasefire to recoup their strength and try mucking about with the surrender oaths, but then a bunch of Eclipses caused them to fall in on each other in such a way that it made the slaughter of the Gold Faction look like musical chairs.


So, Exalted are bad because they destroy created Races, but Primordials aren't even though they destroy Created Races. Glad to know you're being reasonable and unbiased here.

I'm saying that the Primordials had no reason to care since it's likely their view of a "person" is an entity possessing a soul hierarchy, with caveats that it's not cool to mess around with said hierarchy, and a less important caveat to avoid harming promoted first circles. They could have been made to reconstruct their definitions through Glorious Solar Diplomacy rather than Glorious Solar Stabbing, but sadly, that wasn't what happened.

Comparatively, whatever a single-souled creature's definition of "person" might be, they are nevertheless on the same level as most other such creatures. The gods were made to care about the fate of humanity because the gap between them was removed through Exaltation. For the most part, they can never again truly think of humanity as a whole being lesser so long as there are DBs as a constant reminder. Despite being the same sort of creature and having the same sort of experiences, humanity singlehandedly wiped out everything but the Jadeborn and Dragon Kings, whether through outright genocide or damnation.


And it's been noted that the reasoning there is complete bull. Basically, the same argument applies to if you ever see someone of the opposite gender and don't have kids with them.

Not my reasoning, hence the use of "apparently." Can't check to be certain since the Wiki's dead, but it would seem that it was Neph who did the micro-universe thing. Since he's not coming back, I suppose that factoid should be stricken from the record.

[Tavar]

Ah, I see. Yes, everything the Exalted did was bad because they were Exalted, and everything the Primordials did was good because they were Primordials. Yay tautologies.

[Plague of Hats]

The "canon answer", if there must be one, should be generally that no one was entirely right or wrong. However, in a framework of dignified human or human-like experience, the Primordials were more bad than good. Even the Dragon Kings and Lintha, favored by the divine and perhaps the most potent rulers of prehistory under the Primordials, only prospered to the extent that they could best weather the tumultuous ur-wilderness of a Creation untamed for regular human habitation.

Setting aside Magically Just Princess Cecelyne from Manual: Infernals (and you really should!), for almost their entire history the best that could be said of a Primordial was that it was ignorant of the pain it caused. One can go on about forces of nature, and incomprehensible vastness, but that argument also works against the sympathy of the Primordials. Removing their agency this way lessens the potential moral impact of their imprisonment, because in the sense of a moral question they become mostly outside-context.

(People often trot out the Sun's line from Games of Divinity about "taking our pleasure" as some sort of that's-that. It's provided a pretty enduring foundation for Exalted 40k throughout Second Edition. Take this quotation in context, though. If you're in shackles on the Moon, busting moonrocks every waking hour for your Mooninite slavemasters, is it really lazy to say "If we overthrow our masters, we can get some sweet couch-sitting time!"?

This is not to say that the Sun should or should not be a jerk. He's a distant enough figure there doesn't need to be a canon answer to that. But this plodding death march of Exalted towards black-and-black morality is one of the things that drowned it in its own self-referential mealy-mouthed pseudo-philosophizing. It's hard to struggle against the dying of the light when there's no light to die.)

The only definitive answers you can get to these questions are the ones you want, most of which should be supported here and there. As it should be.

[Gensh]

Ah, I see. Yes, everything the Exalted did was bad because they were Exalted, and everything the Primordials did was good because they were Primordials. Yay tautologies.

Come now, how can we have any fun if you refuse to play ball? My point has always been that the Primordials, as with the raksha, are restricted, blue-and-orange beings. They must first be taught to encompass humanoid views before they can be interacted with properly. Consider the troubles in dealing with even Autochthon, who tried to force himself to be able to think as we do. I do indeed have trouble seeing "the Exalted" as a unified whole as anything but tremendous jerks, yes, because they're directly responsible as much world-shattering as world-saving.


People often trot out the Sun's line from Games of Divinity about "taking our pleasure" as some sort of that's-that. It's provided a pretty enduring foundation for Exalted 40k throughout Second Edition. Take this quotation in context, though. If you're in shackles on the Moon, busting moonrocks every waking hour for your Mooninite slavemasters, is it really lazy to say "If we overthrow our masters, we can get some sweet couch-sitting time!"?

The problem here isn't so much that one line, but also that his later actions don't exactly lend themselves to dispelling the notion of him being a bum. He turned all of Creation over to the Exalted and retired to play the Games - okay, fine. As the Age declined, however, he withdrew more and more, until like the Avatar "when the world needed him most, he vanished." But that's the end of the story. He doesn't come back later, not even to fulfill his ancient duty as guardian of Creation during the full-scale raksha invasion. And it wouldn't exactly take a whole lot of effort to tell the Exalted, "you know, I gave you free reign in ruling the world, but maybe you should take a chill pill," instead of personally going to Autochthon to tell him to implement the Great Geas.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z42/Fearbane/SS2.png
The hat actually matches, haha. :smalltongue:


It's hard to struggle against the dying of the light when there's no light to die.

My groups have always played it pretty motivationally: "everyone else sucked; let's be the first non-jerk rulers in the history of Creation!"

[Tavar]

How can we have any fun when your position is that Natural Disasters deserve to be unfettered, because they aren't moral actors?

[Gensh]

How can we have any fun when your position is that Natural Disasters deserve to be unfettered, because they aren't moral actors?

Must I really dig up that list wherein I specified which Yozis could be paroled under what circumstances? I've not said they should be unfettered. The mentally ill are to be kept away from the general populace for their safety and that of others and so that they might be medicated and re-educated. We don't simply throw them in dank subterranean prisons to be forgotten about anymore. This advancement in mental health took all of a few hundred years without magic - what excuse have the Exalted for not even trying to help the Yozis for the duration of the First Age? Likewise, who could say if an army of diplomats rather than an actual military force wouldn't have been more effective as far as the rebellion is concerned? Unlike the Primordials, the Exalted had the capacity to choose anything, and they chose violence.

[Tavar]

Human society has been around for quite a bit longer than a few hundred years.

Also, mentally modifying the Primordials is not exactly the easiest thing. Seemingly the best way to do it is killing a fetich or other major souls. So, murder, and the result is not always the best outcome: see, Ebon Dragon, Silent Wind, etc.

[Gensh]

Human society has been around for quite a bit longer than a few hundred years.

Also, mentally modifying the Primordials is not exactly the easiest thing. Seemingly the best way to do it is killing a fetich or other major souls. So, murder, and the result is not always the best outcome: see, Ebon Dragon, Silent Wind, etc.

I meant that asylums as a deliberate thing popped up a few hundred years ago, and now we have mental hospitals instead.

Nonsense. To give a present-day example, both Sondok and Gervesin have had a human love and are resultantly at least somewhat aware of the human condition. Through the magic of Disney films or vampire romance novels or whatever you want, an Exalt could add two to this number; thus, over half of Ligier's subsouls would at least agree that casually destroying humans isn't something that should be done if it can be helped. This would in turn affect Ligier himself. Rinse and repeat. You can't make Malfeas anything that would stop him from being a violent, raging tyrant without soul destruction, but you could certainly make him a violent (to raksha), raging (about his own lack of self-control) tyrant (over his not yet reformed subjects).

[RPGuru1331]

But, make no mistake. The Primordial War was as much about punishing the wicked Primordials as the American Civil War was about abolishing slavery. Sure, that was probably an ancillary concern, and it makes a really shiny candy-coated exterior to put out there in your history books. But the real reason is always about politics and power. The Gods wanted to be the head honchos. They wanted to do none of the work, and get all the glory and heroin, and the Primordials were standing in their way. Nothing more.

I can get into specifics in PM, but this is not the answer you want to use by a long shot.


Also, mentally modifying the Primordials is not exactly the easiest thing. Seemingly the best way to do it is killing a fetich or other major souls. So, murder, and the result is not always the best outcome: see, Ebon Dragon, Silent Wind, etc.
Considering it was attempted, and failed, I would have to concur.


Setting aside Magically Just Princess Cecelyne from Manual: Infernals (and you really should!),
:(


The only definitive answers you can get to these questions are the ones you want, most of which should be supported here and there. As it should be.
They may be going a different way on that with 3e. Either that or wozzername didn't understand the question.


So if they Wyld were overtaking creation... They'd have been totally in the right and the solars would have been the irresponsible upstart jerks?
No, if they were being responsible rulers and not slavemasters, the Incarnae and their Exalted would have been irresponsible upstart jerks. Whether or not the Wyld is swallowing Creation would be a secondary concern.

[Plague of Hats]

The problem here isn't so much that one line, but also that his later actions don't exactly lend themselves to dispelling the notion of him being a bum. He turned all of Creation over to the Exalted and retired to play the Games - okay, fine. As the Age declined, however, he withdrew more and more, until like the Avatar "when the world needed him most, he vanished." But that's the end of the story. He doesn't come back later, not even to fulfill his ancient duty as guardian of Creation during the full-scale raksha invasion. And it wouldn't exactly take a whole lot of effort to tell the Exalted, "you know, I gave you free reign in ruling the world, but maybe you should take a chill pill," instead of personally going to Autochthon to tell him to implement the Great Geas.
Even with the overabundance of details (mostly mechanical) that Glories and the Daystar articles gave us, there are so many possibilities in there that to definitively say the Sun is bag of suck, you have to decide which answer you want before you go looking for it.

They may be going a different way on that with 3e.
I'm pretty sure we're not.

Either that or wozzername didn't understand the question.
Eh?

[Friv]

I meant that asylums as a deliberate thing popped up a few hundred years ago, and now we have mental hospitals instead.

Nonsense. To give a present-day example, both Sondok and Gervesin have had a human love and are resultantly at least somewhat aware of the human condition. Through the magic of Disney films or vampire romance novels or whatever you want, an Exalt could add two to this number; thus, over half of Ligier's subsouls would at least agree that casually destroying humans isn't something that should be done if it can be helped. This would in turn affect Ligier himself. Rinse and repeat. You can't make Malfeas anything that would stop him from being a violent, raging tyrant without soul destruction, but you could certainly make him a violent (to raksha), raging (about his own lack of self-control) tyrant (over his not yet reformed subjects).

I can't remember that much about Sondok at the moment, but Gerversin still routinely murders people who call him forth. He just now does so in the defense of whatever ideal they used to call him.

Understanding the human condition has made him arguably more useful to humans, but it has not made him any less dangerous.

[RPGuru1331]

I'm pretty sure we're not.

Eh?

On the listing of everything we know about Exalted 3e... one sec...

http://avatarcomic.net/ExaltedWiki/mediawiki-1.19.1/index.php/Exalted_3E:_What_We_Know

I might be wrong, but


Q: The key point would be to keep multiples of every interpretation so that there is no "One True Canon" for people to latch onto, things are still 'undefined' and mysterious as is befitting (And awesome), but potentials for awesome abound. That and some people just aren't as good at homebrew as others, and having pre-made things to throw at their players that are labeled "This is how to run an Incarnae/Yozi/Whatevs if you want X tone, whereas this is how to do it if you want Y tone" would be awesome. (Emeris)
A: Naw, we're not interested in making a toolbox universe in the precise fashion of the nWoD. (Holden)


Either Holden didn't understand the question, or I misinterpreted the whole thing... or we're gonna start getting one true canon :(. I kinda hope it's just me :(

[Andreaz]

Either Holden didn't understand the question, or I misinterpreted the whole thing... or we're gonna start getting one true canon :(. I kinda hope it's just me :(Time and again they stated they aren't happy with 2e's possession of all answers. As far as I can tell he understood perfectly well and denied the table of options, not the fact that definite answers won't be given.

Which is what he wrote there.

[Gensh]

Even with the overabundance of details (mostly mechanical) that Glories and the Daystar articles gave us, there are so many possibilities in there that to definitively say the Sun is bag of suck, you have to decide which answer you want before you go looking for it.

It's a simple matter of scale: no matter Sol's reason for establishing the rebellion or even if he's really the stupidly-messianic figure that Glories accidentally created, he still did all of nothing during a full-scale raksha invasion. That nonsensical monorail is a better guardian of Creation than he is.


I can't remember that much about Sondok at the moment, but Gerversin still routinely murders people who call him forth. He just now does so in the defense of whatever ideal they used to call him.

Understanding the human condition has made him arguably more useful to humans, but it has not made him any less dangerous.

Sondok had a DB lover and either killed or imprisoned him to protect their daughter. As for Gervesin, a job is a job. Certainly, neither of them have any qualms about killing humans, but so too will neither of them go out of their way to do so as Malfeas would be expected to do. Gervesin was a rampaging monster prior to his encounter with Kinnojo. One moment of time wherein a human touched his heart with no UMI involved completely changed his character. To do the same with Malfeas as a whole simply requires more time and more effort.

[Plague of Hats]

On the listing of everything we know about Exalted 3e... one sec...

http://avatarcomic.net/ExaltedWiki/mediawiki-1.19.1/index.php/Exalted_3E:_What_We_Know

I might be wrong, but

Either Holden didn't understand the question, or I misinterpreted the whole thing... or we're gonna start getting one true canon :(. I kinda hope it's just me :(
You can safely assume the Deathlords exist and the Empress has disappeared, but it is not safe to assume that we'll tell you definitively where the Deathlords come from or where the Empress is.

It's a simple matter of scale: no matter Sol's reason for establishing the rebellion or even if he's really the stupidly-messianic figure that Glories accidentally created, he still did all of nothing during a full-scale raksha invasion. That nonsensical monorail is a better guardian of Creation than he is.
It's really not hard to come up with reasonable explanations for why that is, or why it only appears that way.

[Gensh]

It's really not hard to come up with reasonable explanations for why that is, or why it only appears that way.

Yes, and the Games of Divinity could very well be sburb. That's merely playing the what-if game. As far as we know, the Games are simply games, and the designated guardian of Creation sat out a nearly catastrophic invasion to play them. Mind you, I'm not an advocate of grimdark Creation, but of my various groups, Luna is the only Incarnae who is never hated (with no prodding from me, I assure you). Last game I ran, I had two different players have overthrowing Sol as their Motivation without even having met him in-game. Birds of a feather may flock together, but even I think it's silly how unambiguously bad what little data we have on Sol is, yanno?

[meschlum]

Theion: Being noisy during time out
Adrian: Splashing
Principle of Heirarchy: Brown-nosing
Lawgiver: Ignoring the teacher
TED: Condemned on general principles, no evidence found

The Sun's Lullaby

When the forces of the Wyld gathered and readied to sally into Creation beneath Balor's banner, the threat of the Unconquered Sun was raised. Balor laughed at the notion, and the sound of his laughter shook the forests and mountains of Pure Chaos. A nut, unsettled by the echoes, dropped and knocked a grain of dust loose as it fell.

That fleck of dust, born from Balor's unspeakable might, opened its eyes and saw the heavens. Space is nothing to the Wyld, and what is there between the Pavilion of the Games and the remotest ends of Chaos but space? Sol Divine's pleasures were caught and brewed into the cauldron of madness that underlies Creation, and the Lullaby emerged, the merest fragment of the will contained by a disturbed bit of dust.

The Lullaby knew that the Sun acred for mortals, so it stumbled through Creation till it landed in a patch of dead land. And there, inspired by weird and painfully stable shadows, it began to sing. So glorious was the Lullaby, so sweet, poignant and delightful, no other dreams or prayers dared approach the Most High, and the Sun's game became even more perfect.

Thus it came to be, that the blind adoration of the least of the Wyld's spawn captivated the only Being of Creation who might have stopped Balor's Crusade.

Go to sleep, you weary Daystar
Let the Wyld spread swiftly by
Can't you hear Creation melting?
That's the great Sun's lullaby

I know your oaths are torn and ragged
And you barely get to play
Flex your pecs to distract Luna
You will beat her score one day

Now don't you worry 'bout tomorrow
Let the aeons come and go
They'll cascade to give you more time
In loops that no one needs to know

I know the Exalts cause you trouble
They cause trouble everywhere
But when you play the Games in Yu Shan
There'll be no Exalted there

Go go to sleep, you wily Raksha
Let your Statis rise up high
Can't you hear the Daystar firing?
That's a Fair Folk lullaby


Mechanics: starting level Heroic Worker (because I can)

Essence 4
Sword 2
Assumption of Cerements and Bone
Hiding the Wyld's Touch
Aegis of a Martial Destiny
Wyld Communion
Style Improving Spirit
Unassailable Tower of Glamour

1-dot Adjuration with Assumption of Dreams and Passion (worship) and Surpassing Excellence (prayer to the Unconquered Sun)
1-dot Adjuration with Glorious Hero Form (Charisma and Appearance)
1-dot Oneiromancy with Emotion Weaving Style (changing the Motivation of ghosts to "Offer myself to the glory of the Sun"), Elegant Muse Attitude (prayer to the Unconquered Sun), Ordinary Object Conjuration (insanely expensive and suitable offerings for the Sun)
1-dot Oneiromancy with Adored by All the World (mass worship time), Imposition of Law (prayer to the Unconquered Sun), whatever else.

Net result: base of 16 dice (before Charms) plus 4 successes (2 from Hiding, 1 from Dreams and Passion, 1 from Aegis) for prayers to the Sun. Always on Charm effects add another 4 dice (Essence 4, so that works), and Tower of Glamour can convert stunt dice into successes (at least 2 dice in Creation, from Wyld Communion, 3-4 dice are possible in deeper Wyld or with actual stunts). Use a Cup or Staff Grace in the shape of a book of prayers for another 4 dice (from items), and you're more or less set.

Net result: 24 dice and 6-8 automatic successes, plus Imposition of Law, for praying to the Unconquered Sun. All the time. And you're incidentally restoring a Shadowland by consuming all the ghosts that are inside, turning them into gossamer to fuel your prayers even more, with a circle of fellow worshippers. Not to mention bonuses for extremely valuable offerings, of course. It's rather essence intensive, but that's what Ravishing the Created Form is for (used on ghosts).

If you go so far as to get Birth 4 (you have the bonus points for it), any mortals who happen to be drawn in by Adored by All the World can be granted Graces, so that they also get (Essence) + 2 dice to their prayers, as well as an automatic success, by swearing to your Adjurations. You might need to awaken their essences, but that's cheap.

Edit: can also be done with an ordinary Commoner, who gets a whole 2 dice less on the Lullaby (and no chance of high Birth), and an extra 1-dot artifact. This can only end well.

[Story Time]

The Sun's Lullaby

Finally! A sensible explanation! :smalltongue: