Undead on the Postive Energy Plane

[Story]

From what I've read in the SRD, it looks like undead are completely immune to the blinding and exploding effects of the Positive Energy Plane, since they are Fortitude saves which only affect creatures. And it grants Fast Healing 5 rather than doing something like CLW, so the undead actually get healed too.

Is this right? It seems rather counterintuitive. Why hasn't the plane been colonized by undead? The only reason I can guess is that they're easily Turned on the plane, but they still have a big advantage over mortals there.

[DeltaEmil]

Typical case of game designers actually not knowing how their rules interact together.

[The Viscount]

It is an oversight for them to not mention precisely how undead are affected, but since the fast healing is derived from positive energy it should be doing 5 points of damage a round to undead, or at the very least not healing them. I have yet to see a case where positive energy heals undead, so I would assume they would receive no benefit from the plane. An undead with a ring of positive protection would be completely fine.

[Story]

Except that's not what the rules actually say. It's a very reasonable houserule though.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes RAW undead have night infinite HP and aren't subject to any downside but being turned. However, I have never seen a DM do this and not do the obvious fix where undead take 5 points of damage each round, or something similar.

[Rubik]

I have yet to see a case where positive energy heals undeadLesser Vigor and its brethren.

[The Viscount]

I would argue that those are never stated to be positive energy, merely the bestowing of the fast healing ability.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since the effect of the positive energy plane is supposed to be the result of the plane's omnipresent positive energy, I've always houseruled that undead take damage in the same manner that living creatures do on the negative energy plane. It seemed the most logical ruling to me.

RAW however, does indeed give undead (and constructs too, I think) a limitless number of HP's with no ill effect.

[TuggyNE]

I would argue that those are never stated to be positive energy, merely the bestowing of the fast healing ability.

As Story, Kelb, and Silva have already stated, it's a really obvious and entirely sensible houserule that a lot of DMs probably wouldn't even realize was a houserule, but, by strict RAW, fast healing isn't powered by positive energy, does works on undead, and ... yeah. I strongly encourage houseruling this away, and it's even an entry in RACSD (see sig).

I'm not perfectly certain what the effects of the PEP should be on constructs, but it probably either shouldn't do anything, or should just give them limited boosts with no particular downside. (The current RAW of infinite temp HP with no possibility of exploding is not sensible by anyone's standards.)

[Story]

Note that undead are allowed to get Fast Healing too (in fact I think one of the common undead templates gives it). So you can't just make a blanket statement like "Fast Healing is powered by positive energy".

[TuggyNE]

Note that undead are allowed to get Fast Healing too (in fact I think one of the common undead templates gives it). So you can't just make a blanket statement like "Fast Healing is powered by positive energy".

What's more, the Undead type specifically calls it out as working for all undead:
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.

[Talderas]

From what I've read in the SRD, it looks like undead are completely immune to the blinding and exploding effects of the Positive Energy Plane, since they are Fortitude saves which only affect creatures. And it grants Fast Healing 5 rather than doing something like CLW, so the undead actually get healed too.

Is this right? It seems rather counterintuitive. Why hasn't the plane been colonized by undead? The only reason I can guess is that they're easily Turned on the plane, but they still have a big advantage over mortals there.

It gets better.....

The description in the DMG of the minor negative dominant trait is that creatures take 1d6 damage per round (untyped). That may be errata'd somewhere, but it means undead do take damage on the NEP.

[Grimsage Matt]

Just house rule it so the Negative energy plane deals 5 Negative energy damage per round, and the Positive Energy Plane deals 5 Positive energy damge per round.

Simple, easy and you don't have to go into a debate over undead and fast healing. Problem solved.

[Story]

It gets better.....

The description in the DMG of the minor negative dominant trait is that creatures take 1d6 damage per round (untyped). That may be errata'd somewhere, but it means undead do take damage on the NEP.

The SRD version states that it only applies to living creatures. So Undead are not affected at all by the NEP, beneficial or otherwise.

[The Random NPC]

Just house rule it so the Negative energy plane deals 5 Negative energy damage per round, and the Positive Energy Plane deals 5 Positive energy damge per round.

Simple, easy and you don't have to go into a debate over undead and fast healing. Problem solved.

Yeah, but now everything gets damaged on both planes.

[TuggyNE]

Just house rule it so the Negative energy plane deals 5 Negative energy damage per round, and the Positive Energy Plane deals 5 Positive energy damge per round.

Simple, easy and you don't have to go into a debate over undead and fast healing. Problem solved.

There's only one problem: nowhere in the rules is positive energy damage actually defined to heal living creatures. Rather, cure/heal spells happen to have two functions each: one is to use positive energy (but not positive energy damage) to heal, and the other is to harm, tied to creature type.

In short, by RAW it's possible to do positive energy damage and have it harm a living creature; what's more, that's the default unless otherwise specified. Crazy, sure, but there it is.

[The Viscount]

They don't seem to make the same mistake again in Planar Handbook. A vivacious creature's abilities are explicitly stated to heal living beings and harm undead, though the book does not see fit to make any corrections on the traits of the Positive Energy Plane.

In a similar vein to this, by the same ruling an undead hosting a glimmerskin (MM2) seems to be a match made in heaven. The undead host is immune to the Fort save that it calls out to prevent from exploding due to excess temporary hp.
On a side note, the text for the ability seems to suggest that a host does not die from exploding in a burst of energy. I'm serious. What is the playground's opinion of the ability?

[Story]

Can you explode and then explode again?

[The Viscount]

Well, the text says that if the healing touch of a glimmerskin puts you over your total hp, then you must make a fort save every round or explode. If you explode, every creature, including you, takes 2d6+amount of extra hitpoints damage, ref half. The way it's written, you could potentially explode every few rounds.

On a different note, why do glimmerskin halflings have nothing to do with glimmerskins?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, the text says that if the healing touch of a glimmerskin puts you over your total hp, then you must make a fort save every round or explode. If you explode, every creature, including you, takes 2d6+amount of extra hitpoints damage, ref half. The way it's written, you could potentially explode every few rounds. That's the interpretation I'd take. It's not quite as damning as the explode=death interpretation and this game is supposed to be fun.


On a different note, why do glimmerskin halflings have nothing to do with glimmerskins?

For the same reason effigies (MM2) have nothing at all to do with effigies (CAr), I'd imagine. It's simply descriptive. Glimmerskin halflings have skin that glimmers, but are clearly halflings. Glimmerskins are a creature whose defining physical characteristic, for appearance at least, is that they glimmer and when they interact with mortals they act as a second skin.

[Coidzor]

Well, the text says that if the healing touch of a glimmerskin puts you over your total hp, then you must make a fort save every round or explode. If you explode, every creature, including you, takes 2d6+amount of extra hitpoints damage, ref half. The way it's written, you could potentially explode every few rounds.

Hilarious and messy!


On a different note, why do glimmerskin halflings have nothing to do with glimmerskins?

Same reason there's a glut of classes which contain the word "blade" in their name.

[Doxkid]

And it gets better; Because only Undead can pick up the Positive Energy Resistance feat, even if you house rule the fast healing 5 to do damage to undead they can block it completely with one feat.

So...yeah. Suck it, fleshbags.

[TuggyNE]

And it gets better; Because only Undead can pick up the Positive Energy Resistance feat, even if you house rule the fast healing 5 to do damage to undead they can block it completely with one feat.

So...yeah. Suck it, fleshbags.

*headthunk* Gotta say, the idea of a lich taking one feat and setting up base forever on the PEP is still pretty horrible. And resist 10, yeesh.

OK, how's this. Undead on a minor positive-dominant plane take 4d6 positive energy damage every round, as the ambient positive energy reacts strongly against their presence. This is increased to 10d6 on a major positive-dominant plane. Constructs are unaffected (except living constructs) and gain no fast healing or temporary HP.

A lich could still make his base there, but only by keeping life ward up all the time, which is enough vulnerability to make the tradeoff interesting.

[Story]

The Lich would already be vulnerable to a Greater Turning.

[The Viscount]

Not if said lich were protected with life ward. Why isn't necromancy allowed to have nice things?

[Ravens_cry]

I consider this, like bucket healing, a RAW bug, and house-ruled as soon as I saw it.

[Lapak]

When was the change made that PEP only affects creatures? (Obviously 3e at the latest, but I'm wondering if it was earlier.) It used to blow up objects, too.

[ericgrau]

RAW also says that undead are almost nonexistent on the positive energy plane. So this is an obvious oversight. Or you could go with "undead are harmed by positive energy rather than healed" and bam, exception to the other rule.

The strange thing is that while maybe I missed it, I couldn't find that as a concrete rule anywhere. It is mentioned as the reason for an exception in about 30 healing effects, yet not in the positive energy plane description.