Why is mind fog so strange?

[TuggyNE]

From a recent thread that mentioned the spell in passing:

For example, Mind Fog.
-10 to will saves?
Yes!
Itself a will save? Aw, apetail, ampersand, number sign, dollar sign, percent!

This pretty much sums up my thought process (without the self-censored swearing :smalltongue:). I have never been able to understand what the designer of mind fog was thinking. The penalty for failing is so large that if an enemy has a decent chance of failing in the first place they're now almost guaranteed to fail any more... but if they had a decent chance of failing, why'd you waste an action and a spell slot confirming that, instead of just Will-save-or-losing them in the first place? And, of course, the enemies you really want to land a -10 penalty on have enough of a bonus that mind fog isn't at all likely to stick.

I suppose it has a limited use in, say, weakening a group of enemies so your CW Samurai friend can Mass Staredown efficiently, but since skill checks are far easier to pump than spell DCs, and cheaper besides, that seems counter-productive.

Anyone have further insight, ideas on how to adjust it for a more sane effect, or counter-arguments as to why it's actually super-logical and useful?

[weckar]

This is one of those spells that screams metamagic. If you have ONE spell to increase the save DC of... well, let it be one that does the same thing in practice for all other mind affecting spells.

[Teron]

Given the number of spells, mind-affecting and otherwise, that can end a fight in one successful casting, why not just metamagic one of those?

[nedz]

It has an area, a long duration and it's hard to see.
So if you can set up an ambush, perhaps with a Symbol around the next corner (some of which have will save), then you are good.

You can also combo it if you have another caster who has an interesting effect but poor DCs: a Bard might fit the bill here. This is probably best in a non-combat situation; say the Bard is trying to lay down a mass suggestion on a theatre audience, or any other "smoke" filled room.

You could also use it to help with certain elaborate illusion set-ups.

As a straight up combat spell, you probably wouldn't bother.

[Rubik]

It also works reasonably well if you can prep the battlefield ahead of time and then use numerous low-level Will-based debuffs. Saves you high level spell slots and turns your low-level spells into the equivalent of epic spells, DC-wise.

Yes, even cantrips.

[nedz]

Yes that too.

I haven't worked out a good use for the -10 on Wisdom checks. I don't think that this includes Wisdom based skill checks ?

[Phelix-Mu]

Sounds to me like it's good territory control. Once the enemy army realizes that everyone that enters the fog gets confused and sees strange things (some kind of secondary spell or bard fascinate etc), then they avoid the mind fog. Just make sure that the mind fog is hiding the siege weapon that you want to use to outflank them or whatever. Also, this is totally excellent non-violent intervention, since it makes Bluffing and such against many people much more likely to succeed.

Games mechanics-wise, yeah, you'll probably get more efficiency out of going straight for the mass-kill. Good thing character's minds don't run on game mechanics.

[Flickerdart]

If you have some way of determining which creatures fail the save (such as another Will save AoE after, like Detect Thoughts), the fact that it requires a Will save to reduce the Will save doesn't terribly matter - you use it on a group of creatures you have a slim chance of affecting, then hope that one of them does fail and you can then wallop them with something more substantial. Of course, that's not an easy situation to set up, since those that pass the save will know that something's afoot.

[Rubik]

If you have some way of determining which creatures fail the save (such as another Will save AoE after, like Detect Thoughts), the fact that it requires a Will save to reduce the Will save doesn't terribly matter - you use it on a group of creatures you have a slim chance of affecting, then hope that one of them does fail and you can then wallop them with something more substantial. Of course, that's not an easy situation to set up, since those that pass the save will know that something's afoot.You could also stack multiple castings of Mind Fog to improve your odds. This works especially well for creatures with high Will saves if you want to use high level spells. If they'll likely make their saves anyway, buy 10 or so scrolls of the spell and blanket the area before pulling them in.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, I never liked it for the same reason I don't like Unluck. It's two steps to do one thing. You'd generally be better off casting the same spell twice than opening with Mind Fog.

[Rubik]

There are also Will saves for things that aren't spells. Take the helmet of opposite alignment, for instance. -10 to the save for that is quite a blow for someone not wanting to head toward the opposite end of the alignment scale. Combine with (Greater) Bestow Curse for an additional massive penalty.

[TuggyNE]

You could also stack multiple castings of Mind Fog to improve your odds. This works especially well for creatures with high Will saves if you want to use high level spells. If they'll likely make their saves anyway, buy 10 or so scrolls of the spell and blanket the area before pulling them in.

I did think of this use in the context of planar binding and so forth, but it seems borderline abusive, since you're basically relying on natural ones.


Sounds to me like it's good territory control. Once the enemy army realizes that everyone that enters the fog gets confused and sees strange things (some kind of secondary spell or bard fascinate etc), then they avoid the mind fog. Just make sure that the mind fog is hiding the siege weapon that you want to use to outflank them or whatever. Also, this is totally excellent non-violent intervention, since it makes Bluffing and such against many people much more likely to succeed.

I suppose, but there are quite a number of far better battlefield control spells that actually have a direct effect. For example, solid fog, a level lower, has no save and neuters movement and attacking.


Games mechanics-wise, yeah, you'll probably get more efficiency out of going straight for the mass-kill. Good thing character's minds don't run on game mechanics.

... You don't need a detailed knowledge of game mechanics to be able to analyze broad qualities like "this spell can't be resisted" or "this spell has no obvious effect, but subtly weakens resistance to further spells". For that matter, you need more detailed mechanical knowledge to understand that mind fog does anything at all than you do to compare cloudkill and solid fog. After all, mind fog does nothing except penalize Wisdom ability (and presumably skill) checks and Will saves — it doesn't confuse you, it's hardly even visible, it doesn't affect movement or attacks or anything else obvious.


I haven't worked out a good use for the -10 on Wisdom checks. I don't think that this includes Wisdom based skill checks ?

I believe it does, actually, but if not then that part's just fluff.


It also works reasonably well if you can prep the battlefield ahead of time and then use numerous low-level Will-based debuffs. Saves you high level spell slots and turns your low-level spells into the equivalent of epic spells, DC-wise.

I suppose, at least with well-chosen spells to conserve action economy.


It has an area, a long duration and it's hard to see.
So if you can set up an ambush, perhaps with a Symbol around the next corner (some of which have will save), then you are good.

You can also combo it if you have another caster who has an interesting effect but poor DCs: a Bard might fit the bill here. This is probably best in a non-combat situation; say the Bard is trying to lay down a mass suggestion on a theatre audience, or any other "smoke" filled room.

You could also use it to help with certain elaborate illusion set-ups.

As a straight up combat spell, you probably wouldn't bother.

A fair summary, I guess.

And these two suggestions, combined with my initial idea, indicate that its proper use is almost entirely out of combat or at least out of initiative.


Eh, I never liked it for the same reason I don't like Unluck. It's two steps to do one thing. You'd generally be better off casting the same spell twice than opening with Mind Fog.

Yeah, or putting metamagic on it, or whatever.

[Rubik]

There are also Will saves for things that aren't spells. Take the helmet of opposite alignment, for instance. -10 to the save for that is quite a blow for someone not wanting to head toward the opposite end of the alignment scale. Combine with (Greater) Bestow Curse for an additional massive penalty.You missed a spot. :smalltongue:

[Story]

I did think of this use in the context of planar binding and so forth, but it seems borderline abusive, since you're basically relying on natural ones.


There are ways to avoid failing on natural ones.

[nedz]

I haven't worked out a good use for the -10 on Wisdom checks. I don't think that this includes Wisdom based skill checks ?I believe it does, actually, but if not then that part's just fluff.

It would be useful to know ?
If so then a potential -10 on Spot and Listen checks might help with an infiltration? Or Sense Motive if you are running a scam ?


And these two suggestions, combined with my initial idea, indicate that its proper use is almost entirely out of combat or at least out of initiative.

Yes.

[Flickerdart]

Wisdom checks are not the same as Wisdom-based skill checks; one is an ability check, and the other is a skill check. Wisdom checks include determining the type of poison with Detect Poison (DC20), avoiding mishaps when using scrolls or false conclusions from Decipher Script (DC5), and feature heavily in the Sanity rules.

[Rubik]

the Sanity rules.This is 3.5 D&D. There is no sanity.

[Tokiko Mima]

It's great for an ambush. Wait till most of an enemy camp is sleeping then drop the mind fog where you can get the most unconscious targets. Have some of your melee minions charge in/make an obvious distraction, and let the person on watch wake all their companions. As soon as enough have been roused, it's time for mass charm/dominate/pick your favorite Will save spell. Now all the sleepers are on your side, and you make them kill their former friend(s).

Even if enough still manage to make their saves versus your second spell, you've still thrown a bunch of confusion into their ranks that you can totally exploit. Bonus points if you can hide how you did it and make the survivors think that it was a henchmen mutiny. :smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

Wisdom checks are not the same as Wisdom-based skill checks; one is an ability check, and the other is a skill check. Wisdom checks include determining the type of poison with Detect Poison (DC20), avoiding mishaps when using scrolls or false conclusions from Decipher Script (DC5), and feature heavily in the Sanity rules.

Hmm. Well then, that makes that particular feature essentially useless for practical purposes.


This is 3.5 D&D. There is no sanity.

UA has an OGL version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) ported in from CoC.


It's great for an ambush. Wait till most of an enemy camp is sleeping then drop the mind fog where you can get the most unconscious targets.

This does solve the action economy problem, but relies on the idea that "unconscious, and therefore a valid target for willing-only spells" also means "unconscious, and therefore voluntarily gives up saving throws", which I find unsubstantiated.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Compare to this, and note different context and different wording:

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result.


As soon as enough have been roused, it's time for mass charm/dominate/pick your favorite Will save spell. Now all the sleepers are on your side, and you make them kill their former friend(s).

While I'm in a nitpicky mood, charm wouldn't do this. Also, it's still not obvious why you didn't just cast mass suggestion or mass dominate person to begin with, possibly twice. Fifth-level slots don't grow on trees.

[Rubik]

UA has an OGL version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) ported in from CoC.*Facepalm* Oblivious response is oblivious. :smallwink:

[Spuddles]

It's basically will save battlefield control. If you can get it to hit multiple enemies over time, then you only need to follow through with one confusion or slow.

I think Mind Fog is pretty corner case, though, because I'd rather get more bang from spells sooner.

[TuggyNE]

*Facepalm* Oblivious response is oblivious. :smallwink:

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I spoil a joke you were trying to make? :smalltongue:

(I've learned never to assume that I, or anyone else, is fully aware of all the weird little corners that 3.5 has.)

[Psyren]

The Wis check penalty is pretty hefty; -10 to Wisdom checks is the equivalent of -20 to Wisdom.

The big issue with this spell is that, if they make the save, the fog becomes useless forevermore. If it instead forced a save every round they remained inside it would be much more useful, particularly as a trap or environmental hazard.

[TuggyNE]

The big issue with this spell is that, if they make the save, the fog becomes useless forevermore. If it instead forced a save every round they remained inside it would be much more useful, particularly as a trap or environmental hazard.

That's true. It makes the difference between "must recast until enough enemies have failed" and "must wait until enough enemies have failed", which is a pretty significant divide.

Even changing it so that leaving and re-entering forced a new save would be marginally more useful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

After reading this thread, I'm going to agree with the notion that it's a spell for setting up a follow-up attack in a battle that hasn't started yet.

How nasty would it be when applied to a magical trap though? It'd be particularly nasty as part of an encounter trap in which other aspects of the trap target will-saves.

[Psyren]

After reading this thread, I'm going to agree with the notion that it's a spell for setting up a follow-up attack in a battle that hasn't started yet.

How nasty would it be when applied to a magical trap though? It'd be particularly nasty as part of an encounter trap in which other aspects of the trap target will-saves.

Maybe... the big problem with it is that you could, as was said above, just have the trap fire the "attack spell" twice. If they were going to fail a save against MF, unless the followup spell is much lower level, they were probably going to fail it anyway.

Having said that, it does last an ungodly long time, so fogging the PCs before or during a series of encounters could be a pretty mean tactic.

[Karoht]

It is a mind affecting enchantment effect.
Which means it doesn't work on undead.
A pair of undead casters working in tandem could pull some excellent effects merely by standing in the fog. Have one (maybe even hiding outside the fog) hold an action. The minute someone enters the fog and fails the save, Dominate Person/Monster. Feeblemind is another excellent follow-up.

[TuggyNE]

A pair of undead casters working in tandem could pull some excellent effects merely by standing in the fog. Have one (maybe even hiding outside the fog) hold an action. The minute someone enters the fog and fails the save, Dominate Person/Monster. Feeblemind is another excellent follow-up.

How do you know when they failed a save? It's an area effect, so you don't get any feedback. (Which, incidentally, makes the repeating strategy even more annoying: there's no way to tell when to stop.)

[Chilingsworth]

How do you know when they failed a save? It's an area effect, so you don't get any feedback. (Which, incidentally, makes the repeating strategy even more annoying: there's no way to tell when to stop.)

Check the sense motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm) entry in the SRD. You can make a check to determine if a creature is under an enchantment effect. Mind Fog is an enchantment effect.

[Karoht]

How do you know when they failed a save? It's an area effect, so you don't get any feedback. (Which, incidentally, makes the repeating strategy even more annoying: there's no way to tell when to stop.)
Easy. The derpy look on their face that follows. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Which is the sort of thing the Sense Motive check mentioned above is probably looking for.

[Psyren]

Easy. The derpy look on their face that follows. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Which is the sort of thing the Sense Motive check mentioned above is probably looking for.

10 rounds just to find out if your spell worked? Seems pretty inefficient.

[nedz]

How do you know when they failed a save? It's an area effect, so you don't get any feedback. (Which, incidentally, makes the repeating strategy even more annoying: there's no way to tell when to stop.)

Try selling them a bridge ? :smallbiggrin:

You could do something like.
Cast Mind Fog and then cast Illusory Wall immediately next to it. Those failing the first save will be less likely to be able to pass through the wall — even if they know it's not real.

[Flickerdart]

Brain Spider or Detect Thoughts would be a better plan - not only do you test their vulnerability to new Will saves, but you can also detect their thoughts, which, if they've been Mind Fogged, should be recognizably cluttered.

[Karoht]

Brain Spider or Detect Thoughts would be a better plan - not only do you test their vulnerability to new Will saves, but you can also detect their thoughts, which, if they've been Mind Fogged, should be recognizably cluttered.
I knew there was a reason I have an Amulet of Thought Detection on my sorcerer.

"I am the very model of a modern major general--"
*record scratch sound effect*
"Herpy derpy derpy derp, dee-doo, dee-doo,
Something something ants go marching, dee-doo, dee-doo!"

/cast Feeblemind
/cast Dominate Person

[Venger]

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I spoil a joke you were trying to make? :smalltongue:

(I've learned never to assume that I, or anyone else, is fully aware of all the weird little corners that 3.5 has.)

what he was saying wasn't:
"there are no rules for sanity damage in 3.5"

he was making a joke saying that 3.5's rules were devoid of any sanity.

at least that's what I think he meant.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Given the drawbacks already outlined, the only real benefit I can see to mind fog is that, if you're planning on facing a bunch of people with high Will saves, mind-affecting immunity, etc. it's much cheaper spell slot-wise to spam a 5th level area spell to lower a bunch of peoples' Will for a follow-up spell than to spam a 7th+ level single-target spell in the hopes that it gets through. Cast 5 dominate monsters against a well-buffed character and you might get lucky and dominate him; cast 5 mind fogs against a well-buffed party and, not only is someone more likely to roll a natural 1 to make the follow-up dominate monster more likely to land, but if they all succeed you haven't dipped into the dominate monsters you actually care about landing and you can spam those as well.

[sabelo2000]

I've found that Mind Fog is only applicable when you're slinging, at best, 5th- and 6th- level spells. If you're a Wis 11, you can combo your Mind Fog (at your highest available DC) with lower-level charms and compulsions like Hold Person, that can still be useful at that level but which your opponents would otherwise save against. But once you progress beyond 5th-level spells, Mind Fog pretty much uses its utility. So much like Sleep, it's great when you first get it but quickly becomes obsolete.

Also, I've noticed the power level for core 3.5 spells drops off quickly when used against a player-optimized group. WoTC just didn't have it in their heads that people would try to break their rules so hard...

[TuggyNE]

I've found that Mind Fog is only applicable when you're slinging, at best, 5th- and 6th- level spells. If you're a Wis 11, you can combo your Mind Fog (at your highest available DC) with lower-level charms and compulsions like Hold Person, that can still be useful at that level but which your opponents would otherwise save against. But once you progress beyond 5th-level spells, Mind Fog pretty much uses its utility. So much like Sleep, it's great when you first get it but quickly becomes obsolete.

Except that it's not exactly like sleep, since it requires an extra turn and an extra spell to actually get anything interesting done. (Well, or Quickening a low-level spell, but that's still an extra expenditure.)

Thinking about different direct combat spell types for a moment, you have Save-or-Dies (the fight is literally over for at least one enemy), Save-or-Loses (the fight is basically over for at least one enemy), Save-or-Gimps (at least one enemy is inconvenienced to some degree), and Damage (at least one enemy is closer to HP death). The problem is that mind fog is a rather weak mass SoG that only shows its effect if you use another SoD/SoL/SoG spell — it has essentially no direct effects at all, and SoGs are already on the weak end of the scale. (Well, if mass inflict X wounds spamming is your thing, it could show up if you use damage spells too.)


Also, I've noticed the power level for core 3.5 spells drops off quickly when used against a player-optimized group. WoTC just didn't have it in their heads that people would try to break their rules so hard...

Hmm, maybe it's just me, but it seems like it doesn't even need any extra optimization to make this spell look funny: all you need is to look at it with a critical eye and its assumptions seem strange.

[sabelo2000]

That's true. It is pretty weird all by itself. And as you mentioned it has no really applicable effects on its own; its only purpose is to make your <4th-level enchantments and illusions useful for another couple of character levels. Waste of a spell slot if you're a blaster, or a properly optimized enchanter/illusionist.

[Hyde]

Because while many things might not be able to make your regular save DC, they can probably make it with the +4 from Mind ****.

[Karoht]

Vision of Hell. Also a bit awkward, mostly for the same reasons.