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Morithias
2012-12-10, 05:33 AM
One of the primary things I was taught as a DM was "be entertaining over being creative".

Ultimately this has lead to most of my games heavily featuring characters, maps, and plot points and characters arcs that are for lack of a better term, stolen.

For example, one of the characters that pops up very often in my games is Maria Custard, the engineer.

Now right now, few if any of you know where she is from, but yes the blue-haired glasses wearing engineer who carries a bazooka and names every one of her inventions after a flower is not an original creation.

I've received....basically no backlash. I don't know if it's just that she's so obscure that no one knows that I stole her, or if they truly don't care.

For example, would you get more annoyed if instead of stealing from obscure x-rated games no one has ever heard of, I stole from say the final fantasy series? Making the town guard a buff, buster-sword wielding guy named Cloud?

My personal opinion always was "stealing is okay if you add a twist". Basically you can take the design, but you need to alter it to minor degrees, both to prevent metagaming, and to prevent looking uncreative.

I just suck at designing characters, and names even more. Stealing is one of the easy ways to cut a lot of design time out, and from what I've been getting from my players, still have decent games.

So what is the forum's take on this?

hymer
2012-12-10, 05:47 AM
"Plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize! Only be sure to call it always please research." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQHaGhC7C2E)

- Tom Lehrer

As long as you're not breaking any laws, steal research away. It's better to borrow what your players won't notice you're borrowing, but even if they do notice, you're likely to be forgiven because they feel so clever about finding out.

And yes, I agree that adding twists is the way to go.

Edit: Of course, don't borrow anything remotely iconic. Just don't. It will steal attention from the game in ways you can barely imagine.

Andreaz
2012-12-10, 06:02 AM
Edit: Of course, don't borrow anything remotely iconic. Just don't. It will steal attention from the game in ways you can barely imagine.Unless it's a one-time event, like turning people into tang.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-12-10, 06:05 AM
"Creativity is the art of knowing how to hide one's sources." - Original quote, DO NOT STEAL.

Anyway, what hymer said. The biggest danger in idea-theft is breaking the suspension of disbelief: If the players recognize something from popular culture, and the campaign is not specifically built around that piece of culture, they'll get sucked out of the game faster than you can blink. Basically, don't quote Darth Vader unless you explicitly want your players to think of that character as Vader.

Morithias
2012-12-10, 06:09 AM
"Creativity is the art of knowing how to hide one's sources." - Original quote, DO NOT STEAL.

Anyway, what hymer said. The biggest danger in idea-theft is breaking the suspension of disbelief: If the players recognize something from popular culture, and the campaign is not specifically built around that piece of culture, they'll get sucked out of the game faster than you can blink. Basically, don't quote Darth Vader unless you explicitly want your players to think of that character as Vader.

Yeah, I never run "Canon" games.

If you're in a star wars game set in the time of the clone wars, there will be clones, there will be jedi, but none of them will be Jedi from star wars.

If I'm running a star trek game, there is no kirk, if I'm running a shadowrun game, there is no...I don't know any shadowrun characters, and in D&D, it is always "original" setting (For certain values of original).

Vitruviansquid
2012-12-10, 06:16 AM
This isn't really a moral issue as the thread title implies... it's not like you're making any money, you're just entertaining your friends.

That said, stealing's great if nobody notices. As you mentioned, it's a great way to make up for your personal shortcomings as a GM. You just have to be aware that if your players realize you're stealing, it'll probably break their immersion something awful.

The solution is to just make sure you're really really good at stealing.

Volthawk
2012-12-10, 06:16 AM
Eh, as far as I'm concerned, if grabbing stuff from existing material makes your games more fun, go ahead.

Jessica1990
2012-12-10, 06:41 AM
Maybe I should give it a try

Kitten Champion
2012-12-10, 06:48 AM
You're going to be stealing most of everything anyways, even if you aren't aware of it.

RPGuru1331
2012-12-10, 06:55 AM
If your players are having fun, yeah, knock yourself out.

Morrolan
2012-12-10, 07:40 AM
Stealing in and of itself is fine with me, if the DM sticks to the stolen character's story and personality.
I would find Cloud turned city guard kind of an insult to the character (assuming he was never a guard, not an expert here).

For example: I use my username (Morrolan) quite often as character name, but always only for a type of character that would somehow fit the original Morrolan E'Drien from the Steven Brust novels.

But heck, if it's for fun :smallwink:

DigoDragon
2012-12-10, 07:45 AM
I steal stuff all the time for my campaigns. As long as I focus on the core concept of what I'm taking, modifying it to fit into the context of the adventure, and not do a straight copy/paste it usually works out fine.

Shpadoinkle
2012-12-10, 07:45 AM
Steal? Lifting a character wholesale is iffy and speaks of laziness and a lack of creativity. Now, taking inspiration from somewhere is another matter (http://www.leftoversoup.com/archive.php?num=286) (relevant comics continue through number 191.)

Incom
2012-12-10, 08:14 AM
"Creativity is the art of knowing how to hide one's sources." - Original quote, DO NOT STEAL.

Sig material.

nedz
2012-12-10, 08:40 AM
Lamp shading can be fun.

Player creates a venerable PC.

At some point the BBEG says "Luke you are my father".

TheTick
2012-12-10, 09:02 AM
Definitely use other material as 'inspiriation', especially if you want to flesh out something or someone but don't want to spend a month writing backstories for every single NPC. Don't name your bartender Quark, but if you want to have a scheming businessman bartender who might be a source of plothooks or sidequests, go for it. Don't name that scoundrel captain Mal or Han, but do take inspiration from their mix of humor and 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality. They're tropes for a reason - they're fun characters to have around (and to write).

Andreaz
2012-12-10, 09:08 AM
Definitely use other material as 'inspiriation', especially if you want to flesh out something or someone but don't want to spend a month writing backstories for every single NPC. Don't name your bartender Quark, but if you want to have a scheming businessman bartender who might be a source of plothooks or sidequests, go for it. Don't name that scoundrel captain Mal or Han, but do take inspiration from their mix of humor and 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality. They're tropes for a reason - they're fun characters to have around (and to write).

One of the best ways I know to do that is to "sort" plot hooks in my head by their general idea. Plots that fit with bartenders will pop in my head when the bartender happens to be how I next hand a plot. Differentiating the bartenders is a matter of making up personalities and (very) short backstories on the fly and adjusting the plot to the locale.
(I make it sound easy, but it's damn hard o.o But it's the easiest I know how to do)

valadil
2012-12-10, 09:20 AM
Here's how I see it. Individually stolen items may not be unique, but the combination of them will be original. If you take the trash compactor scene from Star Wars, replace the characters with Jon Stewart, Hulk Hogan, and Batman, and set them solving the kidnapping plot from Big Lebowski, the result will assuredly be unique. Scenario * characters * plot is going to be something new, even if all the ingredients are recycled.

My advice beyond that is to steal aspects of things instead of stealing the whole thing. Good characters are multifaceted. Steal one character's cockiness, another's resourcefulness, and a third's sense of humor. The combination will be unique. Anyone watching that character will probably have a hard time figuring out where you got those elements.

shadow_archmagi
2012-12-10, 09:21 AM
Everything worth saying has already been said, but that isn't going to stop me from rehashing it. (Applies both to life in general and this thread specifically)

There aren't really any ethics of creativity (Unless you're designing propaganda to convince people to throw babies off of tall buildings, or driving an author out of business by selling their own book with slight edits) so the real debate is about what works.

Generally speaking, it's always better to adapt than to copypaste. Using a character that is explicitly Darth Vader in your D&D campaign is going to break suspension of disbelief so fast. However, if you just stat up a half-golem psychic warrior with a penchant for black and a deep voice, you can capture the essence of Vader without disrupting the game.

For example, I'm current running a Rogue Trader Endeavor loosely based on Dead Space 2. Creepy girl, mutants, giant monolith- all there. Of course, I've adapted it. The marker is actually an Eldar prison for a Greater Demon (specifically a Lord Of Change) posing as a sort of 'Guardian of the Shrine' Eldar spirit, but the players won't know that until well after they kill the cultists "corrupting" the monolith, declare it safe, and bring it aboard their ship.

Morph Bark
2012-12-10, 09:27 AM
Take material.

Put your own spin on it.

Originality!

comicshorse
2012-12-10, 10:08 AM
" Good artists borrow, great artists steal "

Jay R
2012-12-10, 10:29 AM
If you publish it under your name, and claim to have written it yourself, that's plagiarism, and it's illegal.

If you copy sequences of words from published sources, without buying the source, that's copyright violation, and it's illegal. (Note that quoting a movie is fine. Publishing the movie script is not.)

But if you read a book, or watch a movie, and use that material in your own fun without trying to make money off of it, then that it perfectly legal.

PetterTomBos
2012-12-10, 10:35 AM
I know this is like cutting away a chunk of your time, if you haven't run into it before, but tvtropes.org is a great place to find ideas in preptime (use the random plot generator! :smallbiggrin:)

I have never thought of the amount of which I steal, but I steal as much as I can. As long as your players find it fun and awesome, do what you want. The amount of tweaking needed really depends upon players.

Joe the Rat
2012-12-10, 12:11 PM
Borrowing of ideas makes for some quick shortcuts. You can use a concept, archetype, or specific example to deliver a LOT of information in a brief period. You can give off a "Darth Vader" feel without being a seven food all-clad warlord with a flaming sword and psychic powers (who may or may not be your father). There are a LOT of PCs that fall under the "Basically this character from this show/book/game, with the following changes" or "This character crossed with this character." No reason the GM should abstain. If you start talking about older archetypes, then it starts getting rather endemic. A "Robin Hood" type outlaw (or Zorro-type if he works alone). A Hercules (or Gilgamesh)-type power brawler. A sagacious wanderer with a long beard. The evil chancellor/vizier/vice president. The wicked stepmother. The frenzied berserker (in many flavors). The vagabond master swordsman. The good king, bad king, fisher king, king in hiding.

Obviously, the more specific the theft, the more blatant the transplant. The less you tweak the concept, the less screen time the stolen character should have. Cloud the emotionally withdrawn City Guard with a huge sword is a one-off humor concept. The surprisingly young city guard with a huge sword and a disturbing vibe about him is a bit more workable (and could make a good plot hook/ red herring if there's trouble). An amnesiac super-solder with outlandish skills and weaponry is vague enough a foundation to run with. Using just one aspect (appearance, personality, character type) makes this less mood-breaking.

Admittedly, using an obscure source ends up being an easy shortcut for you, rather than the players. In a current campaign, I'm playing a character that lifts the backstory of Guts from Berserk as a foundation (foundling raised by mercenaries, uses oversized weapons, exceedingly violent, a bit touchy), but without 85% of the grimdark details. And he's a Halfling. None of the other players (or GM) have any clue what this is, so it flies along nicely.

All of the above may go out the window if you're playing for comedy, mind you.

Jay R
2012-12-10, 01:21 PM
How much are you using?

If you use a line from Shakespeare, then you are quoting.

If you use an idea from each of three or four plays, then you are doing research.

But if you steal outright the entire plot of Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, or Macbeth, then you're in good company, because that's what Shakespeare did.

nedz
2012-12-10, 01:29 PM
Indeed: your cultural references will really resonate.

Morithias
2012-12-10, 01:59 PM
But if you steal outright the entire plot of Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, or Macbeth, then you're in good company, because that's what Shakespeare did.

Heh...there's starting to be a huge Shakespeare backlash, and the sad part is I don't disagree with it. Most of his stuff is low quality, and outdated, and stolen to boot.

Bacon Elemental
2012-12-10, 03:14 PM
. However, if you just stat up a half-golem psychic warrior with a penchant for black and a deep voice, you can capture the essence of Vader without disrupting the game

Half... Golem...

*Craft: disturbing mental image: 20*

Poil
2012-12-10, 03:25 PM
Half... Golem...

*Craft: disturbing mental image: 20*

Wouldn't it just be a fantasy version of a cyborg?

Volthawk
2012-12-10, 03:28 PM
Half... Golem...

*Craft: disturbing mental image: 20*

It's not that disturbing, it's just the name they gave to someone who's had a golem limb grafted onto them to replace one of their own. Plays havoc with the mind - you need to make a save or lose your memories and have an extreme hatred of living creatures, and even if you keep hold of your mind you're looking at -6 Int and Cha.

Construct grafts would probably be better for the job, I'd think.

Icewraith
2012-12-10, 04:24 PM
I've been on both sides of this - always remember that borrowing ideas can go very badly if not done correctly.

The good:

For example, I decided it was time for our epic campaign characters to finally get a legitimate chance to kill off a recurring bbeg (he had a sentient magical artifact that could counterspell dimensional anchor and dimensional lock, and swift teleport without error 1/day) and bring back a player who had moved out of town for the night.

The bbeg and a high-level spellcaster demon basically ganked the player's barbarian, but in the process the barbarian got ahold of the bbeg's artifact (woo raging str bonus) and the artifact dominated him and wouldn't go back.

So when the time came for the climactic showdown, and the rest of the party was wondering when I was going to reintroduce the out-of-towner's character, and he shows up walking side-by-side with the bbeg holding a giant red demonic sword, there was a delightful increase in tension at the table AND nobody noticed that at this point I was almost flat-out copying Soul Edge, right down to the color scheme, demonic possession, and morphing into the favored weapon of the character, except this thing had a huge previous history with the characters. As a plus, the out-of-towner managed to kill the party wizard who he had a longstanding rivalry with, which was hilarious.

Also, they had to sever the out-of-towner's lower arm in order to get the artifact off him, and were then furious when the artifact regrew the rest of the body from the arm while they were trying to figure out how to permanently get rid of it.

There was also the time where much of the plot was stolen or at least strongly thematically similar to a combination of Stargate and a few other movies... only there were certain twists along the way, like the portal to the other world being an inch tall and recessed into a brick wall in an area flooded with all kinds of strong magical auras.


The bad

Don't constantly reintroduce characters ripped directly from a fandom nobody else at the table follows that you personally care about.

If you do so in an evil campaign, don't be surprised when the entire table doesn't get the references and then immediately tries to kill them after the third re-introduction. Don't be surprised when ostensibly good-aligned PCs immediately turn homicidal at the slightest whiff of the reintroduction of those same characters, or any indication that new characters were created in the same vein as the previous ones.

This is combining player aggravation with the immortality of a bad DMPC,the annoyance of inside jokes you recognize as inside jokes but don't get, and player boredom with the repetition. This isn't poison for your group, it's distilled tabletop rpg sarin nerve gas aged for one hundred years in oaken casks lined with ebola and treated with the unending screams of damned souls.

mrzomby
2012-12-11, 02:57 AM
players having fun? go for it bro.

players distracted and think it is tacky? not cool bro, not cool.

Darius Kane
2012-12-11, 08:03 AM
"Imitation is the sincerest [form] of flattery" - Charles Caleb Colton

ParagonOfApathy
2012-12-12, 01:00 AM
"The key to ingenuity is hiding your sources."

Ashdate
2012-12-12, 01:07 AM
Look, the guy whose house we play at has money. He's not going to miss the odd fork or Playstation 3.

Oh stealing IDEAS. Yeah whatever. The guys who have ideas have money.

SinsI
2012-12-12, 01:15 AM
It is never alright to steal, as others lose access to the things that are precious to them, without being able to use them anymore.
So never steal books, cards and other items from your players!

As for borrowing ideas, characters and other non-material objects - fire away, everybody only gains from that.

TuggyNE
2012-12-12, 05:00 AM
"Information wants to be free!" - some guy whose name I forget

Kiero
2012-12-12, 06:06 AM
I don't care if it's original, only that it's good. Note that when it's really obvious that something is taken wholecloth from somewhere else, that tends to be not-good.

At the very least something plagiarised should be adapted for the context of the game you're playing, not simply transplanted unchanged.

MichaelGoldclaw
2012-12-12, 08:01 AM
I once had a avenger disguised as a civilian bluff "I came here in search of... Inspiration." Someone picked up the reference and rolled sense motive. He actually liked it

the reference was made from Assassin's Creed Revelations when Ezio arrived at Constantinople.

Ashdate
2012-12-12, 11:19 AM
It is never alright to steal, as others lose access to the things that are precious to them, without being able to use them anymore.
So never steal books, cards and other items from your players!

Paladins :smallannoyed:

Bulldog Psion
2012-12-12, 12:32 PM
If you're using language, rather than making up your own, you're already pretty much ripping off your entire communication system from a few kerbillion other people. :smallwink: So go ahead, just don't make it too obvious, because if the character or scene gets recognized, it can totally derail the situation.

HunterColt22
2012-12-12, 04:17 PM
One of the primary things I was taught as a DM was "be entertaining over being creative".

Ultimately this has lead to most of my games heavily featuring characters, maps, and plot points and characters arcs that are for lack of a better term, stolen.

For example, one of the characters that pops up very often in my games is Maria Custard, the engineer.

Now right now, few if any of you know where she is from, but yes the blue-haired glasses wearing engineer who carries a bazooka and names every one of her inventions after a flower is not an original creation.

I've received....basically no backlash. I don't know if it's just that she's so obscure that no one knows that I stole her, or if they truly don't care.

For example, would you get more annoyed if instead of stealing from obscure x-rated games no one has ever heard of, I stole from say the final fantasy series? Making the town guard a buff, buster-sword wielding guy named Cloud?

My personal opinion always was "stealing is okay if you add a twist". Basically you can take the design, but you need to alter it to minor degrees, both to prevent metagaming, and to prevent looking uncreative.

I just suck at designing characters, and names even more. Stealing is one of the easy ways to cut a lot of design time out, and from what I've been getting from my players, still have decent games.

So what is the forum's take on this?

So you basically have a whole lineage of Momo's from BoF3 running around in your game worlds? :smalleek: God help the PCs. Also, nothing is truly original, the idea has been seen or used before in some form, taking that and then reworking it to your own is valid, just make sure to cite your sources and thank them everyday... Usually this requires ample playing time, and finding all the genes in BoF3, but you get my point.

Morithias
2012-12-13, 01:53 PM
So you basically have a whole lineage of Momo's from BoF3 running around in your game worlds? :smalleek: God help the PCs. Also, nothing is truly original, the idea has been seen or used before in some form, taking that and then reworking it to your own is valid, just make sure to cite your sources and thank them everyday... Usually this requires ample playing time, and finding all the genes in BoF3, but you get my point.

Uh..Maria Custard is from the Rance serise, not Breathe of Fire.

But yeah, there is a family of firearm wielding artificers in many of my settings.

Amphetryon
2012-12-13, 02:29 PM
Man, I wish I had Players like that. I've had more than my share of Players who got very. . . attitudinal. . . about any storyline I ran that bore a more than passing resemblance to anything they'd read, seen on TV/movies/internet, or had otherwise been exposed to. This happened on a couple of occasions with storylines I wasn't intentionally cribbing off of, because I hadn't read/seen the original.

So, I guess YMMV.

HunterColt22
2012-12-13, 02:29 PM
Ah I see, BoF3 has a character called Momo has the same design, personality, also befriends the weird plant/seed companion thing first in the game. Similarity is very odd. Just goes on to prove my point that everything has been done before and everything borrows from somewhere.

valadil
2012-12-13, 03:27 PM
This happened on a couple of occasions with storylines I wasn't intentionally cribbing off of, because I hadn't read/seen the original.


This is how I got over my OCD need to be original. I realized that even if I come up with a plot that is 100% original with respect to known sources, I can't know it's original with respect to unknown sources. And there are so many sources out there, I'd be dead before consuming them all.

Also, some ideas are unique for a reason. If I'm the first person to run a plot because everyone before me decided that plot was a poor choice, is that really a plot I want to run?

hiryuu
2012-12-13, 03:58 PM
Always steal. Also, (and this is the big one) always remember to file the serial numbers off. I ran a three year long Eberron campaign that nobody in my group noticed was the plot of the Fullmetal Alchemist anime with "State Alchemist" replaced by "Cannith Artificer" and "Ishbal" replaced by "Cyre." Even stole the basic principle that alchemy causes suffering and made it into "Dolurrh is the magic fuel plane, every spell you cast costs someone XP." One original element makes everything new.

As one example, I see a lot of "Final Fantasy VII" attempts flying around, not just for homebrew systems but for D&D. Paring it down to its basic components: alien experiments, magic created by the crystallized memories of the earth, and The Man who is sucking the life out of things to keep their cities running, could all be preserved and a setting built on those bones that not only is fun to play (because it now has mysteries the player's don't know about, since they can't immediately bring their knowledge in with them), but is also marketable (I mean, look at those guys who made the Ann Rice books into an rpg (http://www.white-wolf.com/)). That's how stealing works.

nedz
2012-12-13, 04:35 PM
... This happened on a couple of occasions with storylines I wasn't intentionally cribbing off of, because I hadn't read/seen the original.

I had this. I once based a major plot off a reworking of someone else's campaign, which was based upon a reworking of a book he had read (Magician-Raymond E. Feist — Itself based upon The Empire of the Petal Throne — an early RPG). My players all read another series of books (Intervention, et al-Julian May) and they were convinced that these were the basis of my ideas. I still have not read the Julian May books. I think I was just tuned into the Zeitgeist here ?

What's most fun however is to base your ideas upon reworkings of avent guard art (literature or film most likely). With a bit of luck you may arrive at the situation of Life imitating Art, but you have to be ahead of the Zeitgeist to pull this off. I've managed this on only a very few occasions.

Sduser
2012-12-13, 05:55 PM
The Campaign I've been running IRL for about 5 months now is based on WoW: Cata, a level from Jade Empire, and Metro 2033. My party has yet to make any of the connections, save for the BBEG's Doomsday weapon is a Dragon plated in armor, and everyone refers to him as Deathwing (Although his name is Khorix), so sometimes stealing your stuff from other works can turn out succesful, expecially if you find ways to hide the source material.

I mean, obviously, the WoW stealing I did is plain as day, but the Metro 2033 rip off (For those of you who haven't played, think Post Apocolypse based primarilly in Sub-Way tunnels, in Russia I believe.) only comes up in what I call the Old Lands in my world, where all the inhabitants had been turned into creatures that words don't exist for (In the game, it was Demons and Mutants), where the party has to keep a certain potion on hand or become corrupted (Homage to the fact in the game, yoou had to keep gas masks and spare filters or die of radiation), and have to be VERY discretionary on their items as nothing in this land is friendly. Every bit of food, every Arror, is sacred. (An homage to how in the game Ammunition is also currency, so you have to decide: Upgrade your Magnum or keep the ammo for later.).

TL;DR: Stealing is ok so long as you don't just blatantly use as written/seen/played. Spice it up, add your own twists.

Mafic
2012-12-14, 11:03 AM
I don't think there is a DM out there who doesn't steal or borrow. Usually my references are twisted enough that nobody really gets them or are just ripped from things I saw and only have the most vague of resemblances.

Example: I have a Dromite NPC that helps direct the players along story lines (new players). The name was taken from a messenger pigeon in WW2 who received a purple heart after being wounded. Guess what his Dromite counterpart did in the "Unification War" in the time before the campaign started? Actually now that I mention it I'm surprised my players didn't get the Unification War reference or the fact that my campaign is pretty much based around a fantasy version of Firefly.

Delwugor
2012-12-16, 08:01 PM
"Creativity is the art of knowing how to hide one's sources." - Original quote, DO NOT STEAL.
I am so stealing this.

Who can name what Lucas stole from Barsoom in Phantom Menace? Anyone notice the similarities between Gandalf and Odin?
It's called inspiration and if its good for Lucas and Tolkien then I'm doing it also. I get inspiration from everywhere but most often Clint Eastwood movies.