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Fortinbras
2012-12-10, 02:23 PM
More or less what it says in the title. I'm trying to build a world where the main human country is based on the Holy Roman Empire as it was in the 13th century.

I have a council of semi-autonomous princes who picks the king and has to be consulted on certain issues like wars. Aside from complicated church-state politics that probably don't belong on his forum, what can I do to give this country a uniquely "German" feel as opposed to the more "English" feel that seems to permeate most of Medieval Fantasy?

Any good (English) sources on German medieval history would appreciated as well.

hamishspence
2012-12-10, 02:26 PM
Warhammer made heavy use of this concept- you could look up some of their ideas.

A Tad Insane
2012-12-10, 04:17 PM
Bears, gothic arches, austrian accents, and use of german myths and titles should add to the feel. Imagine skyrim, only german as opposed to scandanavian.

Anxe
2012-12-10, 04:36 PM
Beer? Those pointed goth helmets? I always associated those with Germany.
Dense forests everywhere you turn. Germany had way more forests than England (Might still be true, I'm not a current geography expert).
Allusions to fairy tales. I believe most fairy tales are German or French in origin.
A mix of old superstitions and a new religion. Germany still had a lot of the pagan stuff going on in the 13th century I think.
Witch trials?

Cikomyr
2012-12-10, 05:08 PM
Warhammer made heavy use of this concept- you could look up some of their ideas.

This. The Empire of Sigmar has been heavily inspired by the HRE, structurally and thematically.

Zombimode
2012-12-10, 05:45 PM
Instead of using american or otherwise diluted views on a "german" medieval fantasy country, look at Aventuria, the setting of the prominent german RPG system "Das Schwarze Auge" (The Dark Eye). It is as german as a fantasy world can get.

awa
2012-12-10, 06:19 PM
Authentic is valuable but war-hammer stuff (as found in the varies wikis) is free, legal, in English and easily accessible that's going to be more important to many people.

keep in mind that unless your players are big history buffs for the era in question you will get very little benefit from all your hard work.

Kaeso
2012-12-10, 06:23 PM
what can I do to give this country a uniquely "German" feel as opposed to the more "English" feel that seems to permeate most of Medieval Fantasy?

Medieval Fantasy has a mostly English feel? I never noticed that to be honest, and I'm a continental European. If you disregard obvious references to English myths (excalibur, king arthur etc.) and get rid of the nasty "Dwarves must have Scottish accents" trope, all the English elements fade away.

I guess the best way to make your campaign have a German feel is using German names for cities and important figures. For example, in my current campaign I gave the game world a French feel by naming the dominant kingdom Rousillon (a region in southern France in real life), and giving the royal family and their entourage names like Clovis (first Catholic king of the Franks), Hughes (founder of the Templar order), Jacques (last Grand Master of the Templar Order), Lamarck (The founder of the theory of evolution, which would later be improved by Darwin) etc. Coincidentally, the main rival of this kingdom is the German themed Kingdom of Euler (a Swiss mathematician), ruled by king Conrad (a very common name among the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire).

EDIT: This is a real nit-pick, but perhaps you could also make it more German by making crossbows more common. Continental Europeans preferred the crossbow (because it was so simple to use even a peasant could fell a knight with it), while the English preferred the Longbow (I think the king even made it obligatory for all young men to practice with it every sunday after church). I think the king of France did have a regiment of Scottish mercenaries that used longbows though, but I could be mistaken.

Terraoblivion
2012-12-10, 07:26 PM
The Empire in Warhammer is renaissance, not medieval though. It's heavily 16th century which is quite a bit later than what the op is asking for.

And Anxe, the pickelhaube is from the 19th century. Further, witch trials are, despite clichés, not a medieval phenomenon, but a renaissance one, only slowly coming into prominence in the 15th century and peaking in the first half of the 17th century. Similarly what is modern Germany was quite thoroughly converted to Christianity by the 13th century, though some parts of Eastern Europe held by various German principalities weren't.

In any case, my advice for the op would be to focus on the legal independence of cities and the generally very divided nature of the place. England was a single kingdom, Germany was a very large number of cities, principalities, duchies, bishoprics and even a kingdom or two, each with their own laws, mercantile or noble elites and complex political relations with their neighbors. On the other hand, there weren't the kind of lower-ranking lords being semi-rulers on the level below the local city council/count/bishop/whatever, nobility held title and did own land, but said land followed standard rules of private property rather than forming hereditary subfiefs and titles and lands were not tied together. Finally, I'd recommend focusing on trade as Germany as mercantile activity is one of the noteworthy features of Germany, with both the Hansa and later the Fuger family being among the dominant mercantile forces of Europe at their respective times.

Anxe
2012-12-10, 09:21 PM
Sounds like Terraoblivion knows her stuff. Any insights on the HRE as represented in Age of Empires 2?

Terraoblivion
2012-12-10, 11:59 PM
I'm not really an expert. I might be a historian, but I never really studied German history. I'm mostly just remembering what came up during my classes on medieval Danish history and some bits that came up elsewhere.

Also, it just occurred to me that for something HRE'ish, you want multiple languages and several ethnic groups. Not only did the medieval HRE often extend into Italy, as well as deeply into Slavic regions of Eastern Europe, but German didn't become a unified language until the 19th century. Before that there was at the very least a split between the north and the south of the modern country, as well as between German regions and ones with Slavic, Italian or French majorities.

The only other thing I can think of going into is landownership and how there was more serfdom in Germany than in England, but that would be extremely complex for very little real gain. Also, I'm not really much of an expert on German serfdom and cannot describe it very clearly, beyond it not being the way it is usually portrayed in the media.

I hope I've at least been of some basic help, though.

scarmiglionne4
2012-12-11, 01:08 AM
I don't know that you can have something clearly medieval German without it having the scent of English history and folklore due to Germanic influences on English history. Language is going to be the biggest thing during the era you are focusing on in comparison to the representation of English in fantasy rpg material.

If it were me I would try to find a point in history where a more definite idea of what it was to be of Germany and try to wind that back into the era you are trying to fit it into.

Terraoblivion
2012-12-11, 01:29 AM
Just because the Angles and the Saxons came from what is modern day Germany doesn't mean that medieval Germany had particularly close ties to medieval England. We are still talking more than half a millennium between that migration and the point that the op is interested in. It's also worth remembering that France and Germany shared a kingdom at a point after the Anglo-Saxon migration to what is modern day England, so strictly speaking those two would likely be tied closer together. The closest tie between England and Germany would be the viking connection, but Scandinavian culture had not yet been half-way assimilated into German culture at that point, while German culture had been radically transformed by the process of converting to Christianity.

Also, England has a number of very distinctive traditions that have no continental counterpart and a lot it shared with France, but not with Europe east of the Rhine. Of course, there were also aspects shared by all of Northern Europe and all of medieval, Catholic Europe which of course mean sharing between Germany and England, but that is rather distinct from saying that Germany was strongly similar to England.

GolemsVoice
2012-12-11, 01:42 AM
I think Terraoblivion get's it right. Present it as a collection of states (barely) held together by the Emperor, who are quite happy to go to war with each other. The Emperors ranged from strong one able to cowe their nobles to weaker one basically controlled by thos nobles able to elect him.

And yes, the HRE was not really unified. People didn't think of themselves as Germans, but as people from their repective region, living under their respective lord.

The (catholic) church also had a larger influence, directly owning territories, and the Pope's blessing was required to crown the Emperor. Depending on the Emperor, the power struggle would go back and forth between them.

scarmiglionne4
2012-12-11, 01:48 AM
I wasn't talking about the historical England of the era in question, I was referring to the heavily English influenced "common fantasy" if there is such a thing, that the op was talking about. The type of thing where there seems to be several eras of English history existing at the same time.

Sure there are differences here, but are there enough of them and are they going to be noticeable enough to really give much of a contrast to the usual stuff without doing what I suggested? Don't you think a little anachronism would make for a more German-flavored setting?

Terraoblivion
2012-12-11, 02:27 AM
Yes, some of them are noticeable. The politics were quite a bit different on the structural level. If you have a German-based setting and find a lord in his castle, he will rule the surrounding area and basically not answer to anybody as long as he didn't go ahead and get himself excommunicated. If you find one in typical fantasy, he'll follow the pattern of being sworn to the king in a relatively complicated system of fealty and partial independence. At the same time, if you have a king in a German based setting, the nobles won't be lords capable of raising their own armies or retreating to their castle. And that's before going into the complexities inherent in the elected emperor and the politics of power tied to that position. Independent, self-governed cities without any nobility at all is a rather distinctive feature compared to the typical English mold as well, as is the dominant position of the merchant class in parts of the country.

An interesting perspective to keep in mind too is that one of the defining features of medieval Germany was that it was the heart of Europe. Italy, parts of France, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia were all heavily influenced by the culture and politics of Germany, both through emulation, trade and intermarriage with German nobility. England on the other hand was a relatively insignificant, peripheral kingdom more or less restricted to trying to the isles and occasional overseas adventures in France. It only became a major player in the North Sea trade in the 15th century as part of the rise of the Dutch textile trade, which also marked the beginning of the country's rise to the status of one of the great powers of Europe.

Other obvious differences include linguistic and ethnic diversity, unstable frontier areas getting gradually colonized and added to the German cultural sphere, the lack of a strong yeoman tradition, crossbows instead of longbows, no parliament, great diversity in local legislation and the presence of church ruled states that nonetheless fit into the wider whole and weren't crazy fantasy theocracies. So, yes, I'd definitely say that German-based fantasy would be considerably different from English-based, even without nerding out over architectonic and artistic styles or the particulars of local legislation in various areas.

GolemsVoice
2012-12-11, 02:37 AM
I think you can achieve some effect already with just German names for places and people. It changes the way people will visualize your setting, because, to some extent, by hearing the names, people will supply their own images.

scarmiglionne4
2012-12-11, 04:50 AM
I think you can achieve some effect already with just German names for places and people. It changes the way people will visualize your setting, because, to some extent, by hearing the names, people will supply their own images.

I agree. I think this will go a long way.

Kaeso
2012-12-11, 11:56 AM
I agree. I think this will go a long way.

Also, simply using "König" and "Kaiser" rather than "King" and "Emperor" will also help a long way. Don't tell me you don't instantly visualise a very manly man with an extremely fashionable moustache the instant you hear the word "Kaiser" :smallwink:

awa
2012-12-11, 12:01 PM
my first thought is bread

Kaeso
2012-12-11, 12:04 PM
my first thought is bread

Does the bread have a fashionable moustache? :smalltongue:

awa
2012-12-11, 05:25 PM
actually they do kinda look like they have a pair of mustaches if you squint

nedz
2012-12-11, 10:19 PM
I remember playing the (very) old PC game Darklands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darklands_%28video_game%29) which was set in 15th Century Germany. It was quite well researched and created a world which works as people in the 15th century believed it worked. There were two magic systems: Alchemy and Saints. Alchemy worked pretty much as you would expect, but the saints worked by spending virtue points (which were recovered slowly, or by visiting cathedrals) to invoke Saints. These would then perform miracles. It might be worth trying to track down a copy ?

You should also bear in mind that since there were many small states, there were lots of customs duties to be paid on trade. Obviously this didn't do much for the economy.

Ashtagon
2012-12-12, 01:24 AM
actually they do kinda look like they have a pair of mustaches if you squint

You might want to throw out bread that is sprouting a rather fashionable moustache.

GolemsVoice
2012-12-12, 01:54 AM
That's the only way bread is ever eaten in Germany. True fact!

BootStrapTommy
2012-12-12, 02:31 AM
Early or late HRE?

Early is going to be more of warlords than of knights. There isn't really men with titles, so much as men who have soldier backing them and men who are related to the Emperor. Any one similar to a knight would like be a classical "paladin", something like a personal bodyguard under the employ of the Emperor or one of his close friends.

Cavalry would be more akin to "cataphracts" or semiprofessional cavalry than "knights". No plate, more banded and scale. Higher perseverance to weapons like axes, maces, and bows than to swords, while existing swords would mostly be short (gladii left from Old Rome). Heavy influence of the main Church, while the existence of older "pagan" rituals still prevalent in the society. Still heavy Slavic influence and minor prevalence of Eurasia weapons.

Norse, German, and Slavic folklore (that really doesn't change much from English). "Saracens" encroaching on the southern borders.

The only real existing title would be that of the Emperor, usually flavored as "Kaiser" in the more Germanic regions and "Tzar" or "Czar" in the more Slavic regions. The official title however would be the Latin "Imperator Romanorum" meaning "Emperor of the Romans".

Late is hyper-English. Smaller. Even more German. Very disunified, with territories directly controlled by more by regional Dukes and their underlings than by the Emperor, some even areas controlled by main Church. Partial to the heavy plate as well as weapons like greatswords, pikes, halberds, arming swords, and lances. Cavalry as the traditional "knight". However, even the lowest "knight" would have far more power than a lowly English knight would, with knighthood being even more exclusive. A sort of three faction split between powers centralized in Saxony, Austria and Northern Italy. Those annoying Swiss and their rebellions.

Very, very German folklore. "Turks" encroaching on south eastern borders. Current border residents only so friendly as to serves as convenient buffers.

"Kaiser" would be the traditional title for the Emperor with the Latin "Imperator Romanorum" surviving, but for more ceremonial use. "Großfürst" meaning grand prince or "Prinz" meaning prince was the title of the Emperor's sons

Starting from the bottom, the minor title "Edler" existed, but it was for a civilian magistrate, lower than a knight. Next "Ritter" would be the sirs of the Empire, effectively the traditional knights. After that there were the "Freiherr," something like a baron. Then there was "Graf," which would be something like a Count or an Earl. Next would be the incredibly powerful "Herzog" or duke. Dukes were very powerful in the mid-to-late empire, constructing small kingdoms around themselves just barely answerable to the Emperor. Just above that would be the three power houses, many of whom would be more powerful than the Emperor, "Erzherzog" or archduke, "Großherzog" or grand duke, and "Fürst" or prince. Note however, that some fürsts were only as powerful as the more powerful herzog, the title varied in strange historically. Also their title is not related to being heir to the throne, only to ruling a "principality".

Church power titles include "Abt" or abbot, "Bischof" or bishop, and "Erzbischof" or archbishop.

Terraoblivion
2012-12-12, 02:46 AM
Given that the op said 13th century, it falls right between those two periods. :smalltongue:

Which, you know, is where most of the history of the HRE is, given that what you call early would go to like the 11th century at most, while late is pretty much second half of the 15th century and the renaissance until the peace of Augsburg which was pretty much the last time the existence of the HRE mattered.

Kaeso
2012-12-12, 03:22 AM
Given that the op said 13th century, it falls right between those two periods. :smalltongue:

Which, you know, is where most of the history of the HRE is, given that what you call early would go to like the 11th century at most, while late is pretty much second half of the 15th century and the renaissance until the peace of Augsburg which was pretty much the last time the existence of the HRE mattered.

Isn't that the peace of Westphalia, where the French (de facto) destroyed the HRE and became the most powerful country in Europe (and beyond) by quickly filling the vacuum?:smallconfused:

BootStrapTommy
2012-12-12, 03:24 AM
Given that the op said 13th century, it falls right between those two periods. :smalltongue:

Which, you know, is where most of the history of the HRE is, given that what you call early would go to like the 11th century at most, while late is pretty much second half of the 15th century and the renaissance until the peace of Augsburg which was pretty much the last time the existence of the HRE mattered.

Yes, I was basically hitting both sides of when he said. because I was ignoring the middle were nothing happens. The thing about when he said is that it is the Crusader era. And unfortunately in the Crusade era, the Empire wasn't much different than its neighbor France, who was herself not much different then her pals across the channel in England.

European society is oddly uniform in that period. Basically just choose the late and ignore the technology statements, take more chain/scalemail, breastplates with arming swords, axes, and lances.

And England and Germany had only minimally different folklore, since English folklore has it roots in German and Norse, with a sprinkle of Celtic.


Isn't that the peace of Westphalia, where the French (de facto) destroyed the HRE and became the most powerful country in Europe (and beyond) by quickly filling the vacuum?:smallconfused:

The HRE doesn't end until the Napoleonic Wars. However, it ends as a defacto power very shortly after Charlemagne, with only a few notable Emperors after its very first.

It was mostly a none entity through much of its history.

Terraoblivion
2012-12-12, 04:01 AM
Isn't that the peace of Westphalia, where the French (de facto) destroyed the HRE and became the most powerful country in Europe (and beyond) by quickly filling the vacuum?:smallconfused:

The HRE was largely irrelevant as a political entity by the time the 30-year war started. The last real act involving the emperor in a significant role was the Peace of Augsburg settling that each German principality could choose whether to be Catholic or Protestant, rather than try to force it on others. Essentially, it was the last hurrah of the HRE as a significant political force as opposed to the various principalities constituting it. By the time of the 30-year war France was already the dominant power in Europe, followed by countries like England, Bavaria, Bohemia and bizarrely enough Sweden, the war just further cemented that by breaking Danish pretensions and hurting the German states gravely.

And BootStrapTommy, as a historian I can't let the claim that nothing happened in Europe for six hundred years stand. Apart from a major shift towards urbanization in the 11th through 13th century, there were things like the great schism and the codification of knighthood in the late 11th century, the rise of chivalric literature in the 12th century, the start of the North Sea and Baltic trade along with the spread of German culture along the Baltic and the 13th century renaissance marked by the rediscovery of much of Aristotle's writing and the work of people like Roger Bacon. Further examples of stuff that happened was significant changes in the nature of serfdom and the lives of free farmers, the Catars and Wycliffites posing challenges to religious hegemony and, oh, yes the goddamn black death.

As for European homogeneity, nope, sorry to disappoint you there as well. Not only does German and Scandinavian mythological cycles differ heavily from the French and British ones, focusing on ones such as the cycle of King Theodoric, unique off-shots of the western cycles such as Lohengrin and a number of old Germanic stories like Niebelungen, which is notably not British. Socioeconomically Germany was rather different too, with a more urban culture as well as a much clearer urban-rural divide with city states being far from uncommon. Really, I'd suggest you actually do some rudimentary research before making broad, sweeping statements eliminating the Hansa, the extremely fragmented political situation or the entire German tradition of chivalry.

Eldan
2012-12-12, 09:47 AM
Really, the politics were very different from those of England.
The elector counts (Kurfürsten) elected the Emperor, but effectively, they still held most of the power even after the election. And you weren't emperor until after the Pope confirmed the election.
Church nobles. Monasteries and bishops owned gigantic pieces of land, enough to rival any nobles. Cathedrals were more impressive buildings than any castle. And for much of history, you could well be a noble and a bishop in one.
The importance of the merchant class, especially in the later eras. The Hansa could and would ruin nobles that looked at them the wrong way. The Fuggers were, in some estimates I've seen, the richest people who ever lived in human history (after correction for inflation). They built their own cities. Craftsman's guilds were very influential political groups in the cities, too, more or less dictating the laws of the city, what goods could be traded and at what prices, and who was or was not allowed to open a shop, where, and what they could produce.
Independent cities. Reichsunmittelbarkeit (now that's a difficult term to translate.... Immediacy?) was a status the Emperor could hand out that made a local area wholly independent of any noble short of the king.
Very fractioned. Here's a map in 1250: Every speck of colour on there (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/holy-roman-empire-1250-map-1.jpg) is a state of some kind.

Fortinbras
2012-12-12, 01:35 PM
Okay, to sum up some of these ideas:

Disunity reigns, hundreds of small states led by dukes, princes, margraves, and ecclesiastical princes are regularly at war with each other.

Mixed in with this are free imperial cities that owe allegiance to nobody but the emperor.

In my world, the central conflict is between the Hurnwhic League (my analog for the Hanseatic League this being fantasy many of them are dwarves) and the church and princes.

I'll be sure to include lots of dense forests and impressive cathedrals.

Anything else that just screams Germany to anybody?

Closet_Skeleton
2012-12-12, 01:40 PM
Hansa is just getting started in the 13th century. It was important but still an upstart.

The 13th century was a time of civil war, with the Empire basically ceasing to exist between 1250 and 1270.

Czechs were one of the most important ethnic groups in the Empire, Bohemia was the only Kingdom not held by the Emperor and Prague was often the imperial capital. Other Slavs in the Empire like the Pomeranians and Wends were assimilated during this period.

Italian rebellions were the focus of the Empire's politics in the 12th century and that continued to some degree in the 13th. The Empire's attempt to control its Italian possessions also ties strongly into the other main political issue, the investiture controversy. Which, to cut out the religious aspect, is basically the Pope and the Emperor arguing about who is boss.

An important part of how the Empire worked was the succession law. There was no primogeniture, meaning the eldest son had no priority. When a Duke died, all his sons became dukes in their own right. This could be handled two ways, either the sons would partition their father's land and rule smaller duchies (leading to fragmentation) or they would keep the duchy together as co-rulers. Neither or these options were good at stopping civil war, which was common in families.

The Germans and the Slavs were fully christianised by the 13th century but Pagan Balts would remain an threat from the east until the last Prussian rebellions in the 1280s. Lithuania would rise as Europe's last Pagan Superpower after that but the border had been moved east enough for the last pagan-christian battles to not really effect Germany unless you were a colonist or Teutonic Knight.

Eldan
2012-12-12, 02:17 PM
I'll be sure to include lots of dense forests and impressive cathedrals.

Anything else that just screams Germany to anybody?

I wouldn't just say "forests". I mean, Germany has a few, but so did most of Europe, at some point. And there's other biomes too. Problem is, again, that you are talking about a (in medieval terms) giant piece of land that was never culturally unified. Any modern stereotype about Germany doesn't really apply.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-12-12, 03:00 PM
Don't forget the smaller stuff you can do to set the scene. Often times, a little can go a long way. By sheer coincidence, the dominant power in my DND setting is also a fantasy HRE (although mine is more along the lines of if Charlemagne's empire survived into the Renaissance in the same form as it started), and I've found that it's possible to set the scene solely through what kind of sountrack you use. I found some authentic medieval German songs (like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jNxlWEuLKU)) to play at the table, and in a lot of those cases, the lyrics are actually in German, which gave me the idea that this world's version of Common sounds more or less identical to German, and it's only translated into English for the players' benefit. With that in mind, I make sure that any sort of in-universe speech that isn't necessary for the players to understand (ie, song lyrics and background chatter in ambient tracks) is in German.

Course, that might be a little blatant, I don't know...

BootStrapTommy
2012-12-12, 04:03 PM
And BootStrapTommy, as a historian I can't let the claim that nothing happened in Europe for six hundred years stand. Apart from a major shift towards urbanization in the 11th through 13th century, there were things like the great schism and the codification of knighthood in the late 11th century, the rise of chivalric literature in the 12th century, the start of the North Sea and Baltic trade along with the spread of German culture along the Baltic and the 13th century renaissance marked by the rediscovery of much of Aristotle's writing and the work of people like Roger Bacon. Further examples of stuff that happened was significant changes in the nature of serfdom and the lives of free farmers, the Catars and Wycliffites posing challenges to religious hegemony and, oh, yes the goddamn black death.

As for European homogeneity, nope, sorry to disappoint you there as well. Not only does German and Scandinavian mythological cycles differ heavily from the French and British ones, focusing on ones such as the cycle of King Theodoric, unique off-shots of the western cycles such as Lohengrin and a number of old Germanic stories like Niebelungen, which is notably not British. Socioeconomically Germany was rather different too, with a more urban culture as well as a much clearer urban-rural divide with city states being far from uncommon. Really, I'd suggest you actually do some rudimentary research before making broad, sweeping statements eliminating the Hansa, the extremely fragmented political situation or the entire German tradition of chivalry.

So what your are saying is that nothing happened. Cool. :smalltongue:

The homogeneity lies in the fact that none of that has a very significant impact upon game play with regards to a campaign taking place there. Such a campaign would contain the classic tenants of swords-and-sorcery and little else, because that is the period generalized in most fantasy settings (with obvious technological additions). A campaign taking place in 13th century Germany, as opposed to 13th century England, would only be different in so far as the political disunity contain within the societal structures. Yet it would have little effect on how one such a campaign was run and would contain little in the way of unique flavor over and English counterpart.

So history be damned, my statement stands of pragmatism. "Nothing", as in nothing of effect to a campaign, happened in that period in Germany to add any flavor which he may have desired by choosing there over an English or French campaign.

As for the folklore, I made the assumption that his desire for a more German, rather than English folklore meant he desired to have a folklore less the like traditional one we all use and love. The problem is, the one we all use and love is Tolkien's fantasy. That is the modern "English" folklore, so to speak. Tolkien based it, not on English (who were German mind you) or Celtic sources, but on German and Norse folklore. Thus the common folklore of Germany would be inclined toward the modern English in many ways anyway, and would do little to change what creatures were encountered in such a campaign.

Once again, pragmatically speaking, my point stands.


I wouldn't just say "forests". I mean, Germany has a few, but so did most of Europe, at some point. And there's other biomes too. Problem is, again, that you are talking about a (in medieval terms) giant piece of land that was never culturally unified. Any modern stereotype about Germany doesn't really apply.

The Black Forest. Before the advent of industrial Germany, it was one of the largest forest in Europe, extending throughout a large portion of southern Germany and northern Austria. The forest was much large in the past than it is today.

Moral of the story is that forests dwindled with the urbanization of Germany. They used to have even more than they do now.

RPGuru1331
2012-12-12, 05:04 PM
The homogeneity lies in the fact that none of that has a very significant impact upon game play with regards to a campaign taking place there


A campaign taking place in 13th century Germany, as opposed to 13th century England, would only be different in so far as the political disunity contain within the societal structures

I'd also point out that Eldan noted the extremely powerful merchant and bishop classes in the area.


So history be damned, my statement stands of pragmatism
You keep using that word...

GolemsVoice
2012-12-12, 06:36 PM
So in the end, it's not so much about actual historical facts you can use, but more about building the mood through music, description and the names of places and people.

dojango
2012-12-12, 09:52 PM
Also, it seems like a big source of conflict would be between the Emperor trying to increase his power and the local nobility trying to limit it. Although that's basically the history of feudalism in a nutshell, in an HRE analogue it would be fairly intense since the emperor, while powerful, lacks some of the powers that his hereditary monarch rivals have.

Terraoblivion
2012-12-12, 10:18 PM
Except of course that a lot of his rivals were elected monarchs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy) or had to win civil wars against their brothers for the throne, not hereditary monarchs. Primogeniture was a lot less common east of the Rhine than west of it, with several German principalities being elective monarchies rather than hereditary ones and many important neighbors like Denmark, Sweden and Poland being elective monarchies as well.

Rion
2012-12-13, 09:53 AM
One to remember is that modern fantasy isn't based medieval England as much as on a themepark/hollywood version medieval England. There are many modern concepts present that wouldn't exist in the actual middle ages. Here a re some examples of thing you ca change to give a more medieval feeling:

No police force. Many fantasy games feature a "town guard" functioning like a modern day police force. Actual town guards were soldiers still hired throughout peacetime to keep law and order, making them closer to a paramilitary organization with military level training.

No free market. Practically all medieval fantasy feature guilds, but mostly fictional ones. Remove the thieves guilds, mages guilds and warriors guilds. Instead have carpenters guilds and blacksmiths guilds. What this means is that rather than going to a blacksmith and browsing through his selection of premade weapons and armor (he wouldn't have had one in real life), you contact the blacksmiths guild and commission what you wnat made instead.

No "Jury of Peers". Instead of having a modern trial, the local lord would have been both judge, jury and lawmaker in his own realm.

Then there's the uniquely german concept of "Ministeriales", or noble serfs. Basically many german fiefdoms weren't granted to free men, but to Ministeriales. These would act as local governors of the fiefdom and live like nobles, but their lord held as many rights over them as he did over the peasants toiling his farms.

Ther's also the "Minnesingers". While the term itself to any person who might be called a bard or a troubadour, I'm using it here to refer specifically to the Bards/Troubadours/Knight Errants. Wandering knights entertaining with poetry and song at both taverns and courts, never staying too long in one place, while righting any wrongs they come across and living by codes of Chivalry and Honour.

With regards to the more complex sociopolitical structures, there's the different types of ways a noble can own a fiefdom. In most depictions of feudalism, the Kings owns all land, he rents out parts of it to the dukes, who rents out parts of their land to the earls, who rents parts of their land to the counts, who rents to the barons, while each step has obligations to the step above them. Not so with the HRE. Apart from the already mentioned unfree ministeriales, there's the regular nobles where it functions just like described, what I'm going to refer to as "Magnates" (I don't know of any term referring specifically to them), Counts Palatine and allodial vassals.

What I'm calling magnates differs from regular nobles in that they own large tracts of land. Not rented to them from a higher noble, but their own personal property no different from how you and I may own a chair or closet. They were a huge proplem for the Emperor since he had no legal right to the lands they owned, though they often held other domains as regular nobles,

Counts Palatine are charactarised in two ways; they answered directly to Emperor, without any higher ranked nobles as middlemen; and they were responsible for an imperial palace. The HRE didn't have a capital, instead the emperor and his court travelled between different cities with imperial palaces in them. The Counts Palatine were governors of a fiefdom which included one of these palaces, and were responsible for managing it when the emperor wasn't at it, and accommodating the court when he was.

Lastly are the allodial vassals. I don't know enough to say whether there were any others than the Kingdom of Denmark, but I do know Denmark was one a several points in history, with the 13th century being one of them. What this means is that the King of Denmark recognized the emperor as his superior, asked his permission to be crowned as king, the emperor had some say in Denmark's internal politics, the king would support the emperor in european politics and the king could be summoned to the imperial court when matters of great importance (historically only church vs secular power) were discussed.

And that's it. No taxes, no obligations to field troops in the emperors name, or any imperial power to dictate danish laws. Not much more than the danish king officially declaring Denmark to be a part of the HRE's sphere of Influence.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the Elector Counts and Prince Bishops. Elector Counts were the nobles who elected the next emperor when the old one died, and the Prince Bishops were Bishops who also acted as secular rulers of
the duchy or county that their bishopric was a part of.

eulmanis12
2012-12-13, 10:58 AM
One thing you can do, something that I use when I run games. Is to mix some very basic German in with the speach. Don't do anything too complex (your players don't actually speak German after all) but you can substitute Ja and Nein for yes and no. Refer to ranger characters as Jager, have people say Jawohl instead of yes sir, mein instead of my etc. and faking an accent, even a bad one, often helps.

Eldan
2012-12-13, 11:30 AM
One thing you can do, something that I use when I run games. Is to mix some very basic German in with the speach. Don't do anything too complex (your players don't actually speak German after all) but you can substitute Ja and Nein for yes and no. Refer to ranger characters as Jager, have people say Jawohl instead of yes sir, mein instead of my etc. and faking an accent, even a bad one, often helps.

I can't say how that would appear to someone English, but as a German speaker, I tend to find that incredibly annoying. I probably couldn't stand a whole session of a game like that.