Optimizing Leadership [3.5]

[Tokuhara]

Well folks... The dwarf build is defunct. DM wants to avoid the World of Warcraft sourcebook.

So my new goal (hopefully I can keep this sucker) is the idea of "Optimizing Leadership" to basically run a small nation. So, I know realistically of 5 feats I can take from Heroes of Battle (I'd like to avoid Undead Leadership due to the party's Dread Necromancer having an undead horde).

My idea was to be a t1 class with a powerhouse cohort and followers who likely will be crafting items for me and my cohort so I can throw WBL out the window.

My followers will all be Master Craftsmen or Artificers, my Cohort will likely be a melee monster (unless someone has a synergetic Caster/Caster combo)

Any ideas folks?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8817.0

[Tokuhara]

So from those messes of text, I gathered that Cleric is dang good as a Leadership master.

So some kind of Leader of Men Cleric build, a Cohort who wrecks people's days, and my Magic Item sweatshop.

[rweird]

What level, I presume Epic, because leadership has a cap otherwise, unless you want to get into the dragonwrought can of worms, though that would be cheesy. If you don't have epic, the most people you really could command is ~300, unless you leadership chain (cohort takes leadership, cohort's cohort takes leadership, etc.) Dragon Cohort could help buff your cohort at high levels (dragonwrought kobold t1 or the like, the boost to Class Levels could make it a leadership spiral, and you could get into high epic with a chain, though that is as cheesy as it gets pretty much).

Also, I'd like to point out a much ignored leadership rule: Followers have NPC classes, though the ELH has ways for them to get PC classes, it is around +4 effective levels so you could have a 1st level artificer, or a 5th level expert, meaning you'd need a really high leadership score to get a bunch of crafters that can meet CL requirements.

[Tokuhara]

1-20 for the character, All books from 3.5 including Dragon Magazine & 3rd Party.

I'm only using 3 leadership feats (Leadership, Extra Followers, Improved Cohort) which collectively give me a Cohort at my level -1 and x2 followers as per Leadership.

My idea is to be a High Charisma 0LA Race Dynamic Priest Cloistered Cleric with a Face-Kicker of a Cohort and a Money-Making enterprise/Item Sweatshop

[Phelix-Mu]

Followers that don't adventure don't have an unlimited source of experience to burn crafting. It's different for cohorts, and if you can arrange artificers, then they can dismantle items and use their craft reserve. The latter strategy cuts back on the profitability, though. The DM can and should make sure that you have to jump through all of the hoops to make said sweatshop (if it was easy, everyone would do it, and magic items would be so common that they wouldn't be worth much more than normal weapons).

The Leadership chain is very exploitable, though entirely up to the DM. I allowed one of my players to do it once he took Epic Leadership, though I was designing his potential recruits, so I still had him on a pretty tight leash.

Dragon Cohort is very good. I'd argue it is better than some of the feats from Heroes of Battle, especially once you get to the top of that chart, or if your DM lets you pick from higher level ones as the campaign continues (which your DM probably shouldn't allow).

Legendary Leader is extremely, crazily strong. At that point, you really do have a nation of followers.

As for npc classes, at higher levels they aren't as terrible as it might sound. A 15th level expert is pretty cool, though definitely not as cool as an equivalent artificer.

There are a number of feats from Dragon Magazine, too. Here are two of the ones I liked.

CLASS CHAMPION [GENERAL]
Superior renown brings two elite members of your class to
serve you.
Prerequisites: Leadership, character level 6th, leadership
score 4 higher than your level.
Benefit: You gain a permanent +1 bonus to your
Leadership score. You gain two additional followers of the
highest level available for your leadership score. These extra
followers must be of the same class as you. If you have more
than one standard class, they must only share one class with
you, but they most both be of the same class. If you lose these
followers you can replace them through the normal means,
gaining up to two new followers of the highest level of
followers you're able to recruit.
Normal: You typically may only recruit followers up to the
limit allowed by your Leadership score.
Dragon Magazine #: 346 (Supporting Cast – Following the
Leader)
CLOSE COHORT [GENERAL]
Your cohort is almost your equal.
Prerequisites: Leadership, character level 6th, leadership
score 2 higher than your level.
Benefit: Your cohort may be one level lower than you.
Normal: Regardless of your leadership score, you can
only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower
than you. Your cohort cannot gain levels to bring him
within one level of you.
Dragon Magazine #: 346 (Supporting Cast –
Following the Leader)

[Tokuhara]

My DM didn't ban Leadership, but he banned that feat, along with Wild Cohort. Thus...

I have to make a purse out of a pig here.

The Magic Sweat Shop idea is there to basically print money, if you will. They make cheap items (swords, etc) that can be mass-produced (remember: at Leadership 25, I have 270 level 1, 26 level 2, 14 level 3, 8 level 4, 4 level 5, and 4 level 6 followers, or 326 total followers ranging from levels 1-6 as opposed to the standard 163 followers) and any items that I or my cohort need, they then spend XP from craft reserves/aid another to make the items I want for myself/cohort.

[Gavinfoxx]

Orc Cloistered Cleric, maybe? With Leadership, Extra Followers, Assemble the Horde, Might Makes Right, things like that?

[Tokuhara]

Orc Cloistered Cleric, maybe? With Leadership, Extra Followers, Assemble the Horde, Might Makes Right, things like that?

Minus I lose charisma the Orc Route, basically. Plus, I'm pretty sure Orcs don't Assemble the Horde for a Sweatshop...

[Tokuhara]

On a completely unrelated question, one player wants to play a Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 6/Dread Pirate 10 with a hook hand and cutlass. He plans on being a TWF Guy with a cutlass and a hook for a hand. What would the damage of the hook be?

[Gavinfoxx]

Hook is in Dragon Magazine 318.

Simple melee weapon, light, 1d4/x4, piercing, can't be disarmed.

Cutlass is in stormwrack, martial melee, light, 1d6, 19-20/x2, slashing, +2 to resist being disarmed.

[Tokuhara]

Hook is in Dragon Magazine 318.

Simple melee weapon, light, 1d4/x4, piercing, can't be disarmed.

Groovy. He'll be happy to have a Masterwork hook hand that he can use as a decent weapon he can smack a fool with his hook and run 'em through with his cutlass. I forsee him causing a lot of hilarity in a Horror Campaign

[TypoNinja]

The Power of Power of Faerûn book has some more leadership options if your followers are going to be something other than just a typical standing army. Things like establishing colonies. If you are doing that, your followers will bring their families with them. So you don't directly control the family, but its an economic base you have significant influence over.

It also has rules expanding the number of followers, most importantly it 'un-epics' the epic leadership table. While your base leadership score is still capped at under 21st level, your modified leadership score gets uncapped allowing you to take advantage of the epic tables for numbers of followers.

Best way to do that is to take Might Makes Right and a high strength monstrous race. Then its time to assemble the horde.

[Gavinfoxx]

Minus I lose charisma the Orc Route, basically. Plus, I'm pretty sure Orcs don't Assemble the Horde for a Sweatshop...

You don't need a sweatshop to mass produce magic items. really.

I have a handbook for this sort of thing. Read it!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Tokuhara]

But you see the goal, right?

With having a sweatshop, I can keep the gold rolling into my purse and be able to buy whatever items I want (like say a nation)

[Gavinfoxx]

But you see the goal, right?


Did you even read my document and the associated links??

[herrhauptmann]

Best way to do that is to take Might Makes Right and a high strength monstrous race. Then its time to assemble the horde.
+1.
Orc is +4str? Halfminotaur is another +12 on a base medium character?
All that, for a what, +2 LA?
Getting a +16 charisma is pretty hard to do with that little LA.

[ShadowFireLance]

Do any of you even know what Might Makes right does?
IT ADDS YOUR STR SCORE TO (in additon to CHA) Your leadership score...
Yeesh:smalltongue:

[Tokuhara]

I did read the document and my head was hurting. The format wasn't user-friendly

And here's how I get a good charisma:

Start with an 18
Race with +2
Unseelie Fae for another +2
Magic Blooded for yet another +2

End result is a 24 before class advancement. By level 6, I have a 25 Charisma, which is a +7 modifier, which combined with items and further advancement is sufficient corny leadership needs.

[toapat]

End result is a 24 before class advancement. By level 6, I have a 25 Charisma, which is a +7 modifier, which combined with items and further advancement is sufficient corny leadership needs.

I could barely make a passable bag of Microwave popcorn with that ammount of Meh you are using.

Bigger things can be done with 2 Paladin/2 blackguard. And cheese was to be had in plenty with Wilder 10/Thrallherd 10.

[Mithril Leaf]

+1.
Orc is +4str? Halfminotaur is another +12 on a base medium character?
All that, for a what, +2 LA?
Getting a +16 charisma is pretty hard to do with that little LA.

Half Minotaur Lloth-Touched Magic-Blooded Water Orc is ummmm...
+22 Str, -2 Dex, +14 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis +0 Cha.
For +2 LA.

[TypoNinja]

Half Minotaur Lloth-Touched Magic-Blooded Water Orc is ummmm...
+22 Str, -2 Dex, +14 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis +0 Cha.
For +2 LA.

Assuming you can squeak out ALL the bonuses to leadership score This would provide you with;

Level+Cha mod = Base score +

+6 from the DMG bonuses
+12 from PoF bonuses.
+22 from might makes right

For an effectively leadership score of Level+cha+40.

Thats 1000 first level followers before level+cha mod. Double it for extra followers.

Assuming your minimum level 6th and a 0 cha mod you've still just left the epic chart behind and hit "If you are going to twink this hard, do the math yourself jackass" territory. Always a good feeling :D

Lets bust out assemble the horde to pile on some more.

And we still haven't covered HoB or Dragon Mag shenanigans :D Pretty sure there's a flat +4 leadership score feat somewhere, plus another one to double your first level followers.

Remember your base score (Level + Cha mod) is limited to 25. But your Effective score is not.

[Socratov]

If leadership is your goal (and thus as many followers as possible) then this is what you do:

Human Bard 10/Warchanter 10
Feats: leadership, Improved cohort, Extra followers
Pump Charisma and leadershipscore increasing effects
Dragon fire Inspiration (lvl 1) (try to make it sonic)
ACF for lvl 6 class feature Song of the Heart
ACF Healing Hymn
Lingering Song
Your cohort is another bard DFI with other element (different elements stack)

...(furhter IC optimization, get more bards high level if you need them use alphorn for reach of effect)

then

Every follower of lvl 6 or higher (including cohort) gets leadership of his own
High level followers (no cohort) are casters, low level (lvl<=2) followers are lion totem barbarians with powerattack

You let your casters buff up your army and counterspell, you use your warchanter capstone granting everyone lvl 20 bab (including iteratives), let your bard cohort and you DFI and inspire courage, full powerattack with charge and punce => barbarian horde behaving like blenders

Congratulations, You now have an almost unstoppable army of just about infinite (? too lazy to do calculations like these) persons attacking like they are lvl 20 (or highest level available) and hitting for massive damage. You have now broken the game that is DnD

EDIT: I forgot to add a TL;DR - Instead of having people follow you around that don't really do anything, make them into competent fighters so you can actually use them effectively. It's not the number that counts, but what they can do, else they will all fall without doing something, and dieing peepz lowers your leadershipscore.

[Darius Kane]

It also has rules expanding the number of followers, most importantly it 'un-epics' the epic leadership table. While your base leadership score is still capped at under 21st level, your modified leadership score gets uncapped allowing you to take advantage of the epic tables for numbers of followers.
That's actually not true.

[TypoNinja]

That's actually not true.

PoF pg. 154


A character’s base Leadership score is calculated as the sum of the character’s level plus any Charisma modifier, but that base Leadership score cannot exceed 25 unless the character has the Epic LeadershipEL feat.

The level of the cohort and the number of followers by level is determined by the character’s effective Leadership score, calculated as the sum of the base Leadership score plus any applicable modifiers

PoF pg. 155-156


As noted above, a character’s base Leadership score cannot exceed 25 unless that character has the Epic Leadership feat; however, in a slight variant from the core rules, this book assumes that the character’s effective Leadership score is unlimited.

Specifies Base leadership is the only score capped, specifies that Base is Level + Cha. So any other bonuses are not capped. Pretty straight forward.

[Morph Bark]

Does the DM allow you to pick your followers' races/classes?

I remember that for level 6 followers I had one Bard, one Artificer, one Wizard and one Archivist (thus having access to nearly all spells of levels 1-3 and cheap low-level magic items), level 5 I mostly had Bards and one Wu Jen, level 3 were Marshal 2/Dragon Shaman 1 and level 1 were a boatload of specialized characters. Most of them were Crusaders with Craft skills. A number of followers also took care of animals and trained them.

They maintained a library of spells and many subjects of Knowledge and stuff we had come to learn while adventuring, a spy network for gathering information and allow inside access to certain places, cheap gear, and in case it's really needed a pretty extensive army that gets a ton of buffs. (All the Bards had different types of Inspire Courage and had warhorns, granting them over a mile in range with Inspire Courage.)

I think at one point I also thought of encouraging one of them to open up an inn, so the party could stay somewhere for free and we'd have even easier access to information.


PoF pg. 155-156

Specifies Base leadership is the only score capped, specifies that Base is Level + Cha. So any other bonuses are not capped. Pretty straight forward.

Wait, what? What book is that?

It does mention it is "in a slight variant from the core rules" though.

[Darius Kane]

PoF pg. 154



PoF pg. 155-156



Specifies Base leadership is the only score capped, specifies that Base is Level + Cha. So any other bonuses are not capped. Pretty straight forward.
Um... that is just a houserule made specifically for this book because it was dealing extensively with Leadership and "Epic but not really" characters. This isn't really a general rule or anything like that. :smallconfused: It clearly states that Leadership score is capped at 25 if you don't have Epic Leadership. Then it says that characters in this book ignore this rule, most probably for the sake of simplicity. They wanted to have some examples of NPCs with epic Leadership scores, but didn't want to make too many epic NPCs, is all.
So yeah, you still need Epic Leadership.

[herrhauptmann]

They wanted to have some examples of NPCs with epic Leadership scores, but didn't want to make too many epic NPCs, is all.
So yeah, you still need Epic Leadership.

Except that Power fo Faerun still created those epic NPCs. At least one NPC for each section (faith, market, political, war). The religion one, he was about 25th level, and still had a level 18 cohort. By the reputation rules they used, he took a hit for his religion based leadership because he was a heretic (had the feat heretic of the faith), which was balanced out a bit by various other things like finding an artifact of the faith, or performing a miracle in front of a thousands of witnesses.

And it's not really a houserule if it's in an official book.

[Radar]

One thing that wasn't mentioned here concerning item crafting: Distilled Joy spell from Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a 3rd level spell, which basicaly allows you to mass-produce crafting XP. There is a small problem with the long casting time and the spell's availability to NPC casters, but there is nothing traps and spellclocks can't solve. :smallbiggrin:

[Sgt. Cookie]

Step 1: Develop a symbiotic relationship with extraplanar flowers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833). This lets you pick up Leadership for free. Alongside a whole host of other things. You will need Might Makes Right and Improved Cohort, though.

Step 2: Have your cohort also develop a symbiotic relationship with extraplanar flowers.

Step 3: Rinse and repeat, as the flowers can give you Leadership all the way down to ECL 2, your cohorts should also have both Improved and Might maked right. Your ECL 4 and 5 Cohorts should have Improved Cohort rather than Might Makes Right. Your ECL 3 Cohort can have a level 1 cohort.

Step 4: Have any follower that can be ECL 3 or higher ALSO develop symbiotic relationships with extraplanar flowers. For even more 1st level followers.

Enjoy your Hippie army.

[toapat]

Cookie, you forgot that those flowers need to have had encountered a quite nice druid who decided that a quality Intensified Awaken was needed.

[Sgt. Cookie]

While certainly helpful, they are not absolutely necessary.

[mangosta71]

Thrallherd cohort? Whose thralls are also thrallherds? I think their leadership score calculation bypasses the requirement for the Epic Leadership feat.

[toapat]

While certainly helpful, they are not absolutely necessary.

When optimizing for Leadership, Intensified Awakened Simbionts are always required.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Fair point, Toa. But all I'm saying is, in a pinch, Intensified Awaken can slide.

[Tokuhara]

Did I accidentally open a can of worms here?

[Radar]

Cookie, you forgot that those flowers need to have had encountered a quite nice druid who decided that a quality Intensified Awaken was needed.
That's what creative backstory is for. Since you are actually building an army of enlightened hippies, you might as well write up a druid, who have shown you The Way and given the task of spreading the blessing. :smalltongue:

Quite honestly the symbiotic trick made me cackle like a madman. Seven levels worth of feats and skills for a mere +1 LA is so hilariously broken. :smallbiggrin:

edit:

Did I accidentally open a can of worms here?
Those make decent swarms too.

[toapat]

Those make decent swarms too.

not as good as plants though, considering through vague wording, i believe you actually reroll all the mental attributes of any plant you use Awaken on

[Tokuhara]

This has all just beome a gargled mess that is well beyondmy comprehension...

[toapat]

This has all just beome a gargled mess that is well beyondmy comprehension...

Simbiont is the most ridiculous template in the game.

im almost certain also that it is the fastest way to create an invincible creature at that, considering if you can get the bonded creature to be diminuitive (im afb so i cant check the minimum host size), the combined creature then can have a statblock that looks like this at 1 HD:

STR: 240 (Mousecart ported from 2nd ed)
Dex: 15
Con: 8
Int: 36
Wis; 36
Cha: 36

sure, this creature has a crap con, But look at that build.

the base creature would be a wooden golem bat, anyone have a swarm that is small enough to bond to it?

[Sgt. Cookie]

Minimum host size is two sizes larger than the guest. So diminutve could be stuck on any common PC race.

[Keltaris]

If you choose the Might Makes Right route, maybe you should take a look at the Orc Warlord PrC. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a)

[TypoNinja]

Um... that is just a houserule made specifically for this book because it was dealing extensively with Leadership and "Epic but not really" characters. This isn't really a general rule or anything like that. :smallconfused: It clearly states that Leadership score is capped at 25 if you don't have Epic Leadership. Then it says that characters in this book ignore this rule, most probably for the sake of simplicity. They wanted to have some examples of NPCs with epic Leadership scores, but didn't want to make too many epic NPCs, is all.
So yeah, you still need Epic Leadership.

Ok, Power of Faerun, an official book, so not a house rule. Technically not even a variant. The PoF rules would be superseding the DMG rules. What you are looking at is RAW.

Specifically it clarifies the your max leadership score capped at 25 pre-epic rule to that limit only applying to your base score of level+Cha, and allowing unlimited modifiers to your effective score gained from bonuses. Nowhere does it say to ignore the old rules, it simply narrows them. It splits your leadership into two types, base score and effective score. Base score is what the DMG meant when it said it was capped. Effective Score is unlimited.

This was necessary because of all the extra possible bonuses it added. You can get +12 to your leadership score from PoF sources. That means its entirely possible to pass a score of 25 right out of the gate.

Level + cha + DMG + PoF = 6+4+6+12. A 28 leadership score right outta the gate. They needed to uncap the bonuses just to keep up with their extra material. You can bring your Cha all they way down to only a +2 and have a 26 score, and be past the epic table. At 10th level a negative Cha mod still pushes you over the 25 mark.

[Morph Bark]

STR: 240 (Mousecart ported from 2nd ed)

Wait, what? How does that work?

Then again, porting something from 2e wouldn't work unless a DM specifically allowed that outside the normal rules.

[toapat]

Wait, what? How does that work?

Then again, porting something from 2e wouldn't work unless a DM specifically allowed that outside the normal rules.

The mousecart raises the load numbers of a diminutive creature to be equal to a team of heavy workhorses (6000 lbs per). In 3.5 you do that by increasing str.

A mouse thus harnessed gains between 240 and 1200 str, depending on horse team size.

You thusly can have a bat with more str then my uber-tarrasque, at a pretty low level

[Tokuhara]

I'm kind of regretting wanting to optimize Leadership. A vague feat with insane power just seems like something that will lose me friends

[TuggyNE]

I'm kind of regretting wanting to optimize Leadership. A vague feat with insane power just seems like something that will lose me friends

Yeahhh, that's a pretty sensible way to look at it. Leadership is really kind of messy and generally overpowered, not to mention taking up a lot of extra time in play.

[Tokuhara]

Yeahhh, that's a pretty sensible way to look at it. Leadership is really kind of messy and generally overpowered, not to mention taking up a lot of extra time in play.

So now, I'm fresh outta ideas

[Vaz]

Surely if you "keep it simple stupid", and have it to take a few low level fighter types to provide some ranged damage support, or help you flank, or knock enemies prone to deal damage; as well as allowing the DM to flip the typical situation (so that it resembles Sauron's opening scene in the fellowship of the ring, as opposed to Balin's tomb. Also, perhaps opening a possibility of mass battles; several "swarms" made of mook level guys facing off while you head for enemy commanders; rather than having the fighting resolved as a background fluff, or even relegating it to the PC's actions, you can have it where you have some "control" over the fighting.

Instead of using it as a gold farm, or the chaining of Leadership abilities.

It is 3rd party, and 3rd (not 3.5, I have heard there is a conversion in Dragon somewhere I am looking for the edition) edition, so you might recieve some odd looks for suggesting it, but a lot of the classes etc are fairly low powered. If you are looking to boost Charisma, using Rokugan 3.0, a Crane Courtier gains a +2 untyped bonus every few levels to Charisma; throw in Charisma from standard Levelling and you have a higher Charisma than a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon by Courtier 20; and that is without magical trickery, Feats etc.

Not only that, but you if you take Leadership feat prior to level 9, you get a +3 Bonus to your score at that level; with a score of Cha 18, a favourable race (+2), +12 Cha from the Abilities, +5 from levelling up, you have 37 Charisma without much effort. Cloak of Charisma +5 for 42. So; that is a Leadership of 39 with a single magic item, and one Feat (Leadership itself).

Make it old for a further +2 for 40 Leadership. A vow of Poverty nets you a potential further +8 to charisma for +4 bonus although that does mean you need to sacrifice the Magic item so it is a net gain of +1 Cha bonus and hence leadership. Not only that, however, it doesn't really fit the fluff of a Courtier but if you can make it work (Gandhi springs to mind here, good job).

Looking at the Heroes of Battle, there are a number of Leadership Feats; Double followers sticks out mostly.

I could go much further into power of faerun giving Leadership bonuses based on military, religious and mercantile standing, as well as Charisma Boosts from spells etc; but I'll just leave it as is.

Without Extra Followers;
Non Poverty; Ld Score is 40; 25th Level Cohort, 1000 L1, 100 L2, 50 L3, 25 L4, 13 L5, 7 L6, 4 L7, 2 L8, 1 L9 = Total 1202 Followers and a Cohort

Double all of those figures, so 2404 and a Cohort. Take Dragon Cohort for ECL-3 and you can take an ECL 28 Character; that includes Huge Dragons like a Very Old Black or Mature Adult Silver Dragon or some insane monster/character class abomination that the min/maxes can come up with. Could even come up with some sort of Epic Druid to degrade the game into cheese. But like I said; you could always ignore the Druid 25 or Cleric 25 and instead take a ton of l1 Crossbowmen.

[toapat]

So now, I'm fresh outta ideas

See if your DM will let you play an awakened fruit bat

then see if you can get the Mouse Cart

[Tokuhara]

Here's the party and campaign theme:

Dread Necromancer (Evil)
Human Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 6/Dread Pirate 10 (CN)
Spellthief (no clue)

The campaign is a Horror setting of my DM's creation.

[Darius Kane]

@ TypoNinja
Please, read the quote you yourself posted:

As noted above, a character’s base Leadership score cannot exceed 25 unless that character has the Epic Leadership feat; however, in a slight variant from the core rules, this book assumes that the character’s effective Leadership score is unlimited.
This houserule is ONLY used for this book.

[TypoNinja]

@ TypoNinja
Please, read the quote you yourself posted:

This houserule is ONLY used for this book.

I'm thinking you don't quite understand what a house rule is.

Or the premise behind Specific trumps General.

[Socratov]

the book makes an assumption. it does not explicitly change the rule used, it assumes that a certain customization is in effect (i.e. no roof for effective leadershipscores) so no specific trumps general because it doesn't change a rule to begin with (contrast with feats that do change rules, which mention what the feat does, what the effect is, and what the effect is without this feat and what part of the rule it specifically alters).

Besides, they mention that it's a variant rule (just like pointbuy is a variant rule, indicating why in threads like IC optimization, the statgeneration method is specified to indicate which variant is used). So unless it is specified that this variant is used in the game, it's moot.

[TypoNinja]

the book makes an assumption. it does not explicitly change the rule used, it assumes that a certain customization is in effect (i.e. no roof for effective leadershipscores) so no specific trumps general because it doesn't change a rule to begin with (contrast with feats that do change rules, which mention what the feat does, what the effect is, and what the effect is without this feat and what part of the rule it specifically alters).

Besides, they mention that it's a variant rule (just like pointbuy is a variant rule, indicating why in threads like IC optimization, the statgeneration method is specified to indicate which variant is used). So unless it is specified that this variant is used in the game, it's moot.

And you missed the part where I explained why that assumption is necessary. New bonuses to your score introduced in PoF make it trivially easy to hit a 25 leadership score. This would make over 90% of the sub epic table pointless. It'd get even more silly with the addition of [Leadership] feats from HoB and Dragon mags. Who needs a feat for +4 leadership score if I'm already maxed out at 7th level with a 0 Cha mod?

You're also trying to split those hairs mighty finely for some reason. Its a source book, not your DM. If your DM makes an assumption you get house rule, if a source book makes an assumption you have RAW. Its not sitting in a big Variant sidebar that says ask for DM approval using this variant. Its new, expanded rules for Leadership.

I thought I was being clear enough but let me spell it out for you.

DMG source, General. Says leadership score capped at 25 pre-epic.

PoF source, Specific. Establishes that your leadership score is in fact two parts, Base and Effective. Base is what the DMG meant when it said capped. Effective is unlimited. This even lines up, unless you happen to be a Cha based caster you most likely won't need to take Epic Leadership until you are 21st level or better.

You see how an expansion on older rules can be used to change how they function? The old rules don't become obsolete, just clarified, we changed Leadership to Base Leadership and Effective Leadership, and the PoF source didn't even need to contradict the DMG source, it just provided more details. This isn't material sitting in a side bar telling you to ask your DM before use, its got a whole freaking chapter devoted to it.

When the flavour text leading into the chapter explains its a slight variant, they aren't talking about optional rules, they mean the natural language version of the word;


Noun
A form or version of something that differs in some respect from other forms of the same thing or from a standard

I don't know if you've actually read Power of Faerun or are just basing this off the two snippets I posted, but the whole book has a theme on it, Rulership. It turns around and follows up Leadership with Influence and Rulership. These expanded rules are essential to the entire existence of the book. Its what its about, building a Nation or Church or Guild, Kingdom level politics and Influence. Settling and conquering the wilderness with hundreds or even thousands of followers (and their families!) Looking to the PC's for leadership, guidance, and their very survival.

The 150ish (162 I think?) followers that the leadership table at a score of 25 provides you are not nearly enough to cover these themes.

That's why PoF introduced 12 points worth of new bonuses before even going for feats. If you are a Leader of men, the ruler of a Kingdom, or even some kind of Warlord, you require many more men.

You cannot say this is a simple variant without tossing the vast majority of the entire book. Expanded leadership rules are the major point of this book.

[Darius Kane]

I'm thinking you don't quite understand what a house rule is.

Or the premise behind Specific trumps General.
There's no specifics to trump any general.


You cannot say this is a simple variant without tossing the vast majority of the entire book. Expanded leadership rules are the major point of this book.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that you still need Epic Leadership to get its benefits. You can have Leadership score over 9000! but you still have to take the epic feat to use that score.

[Tokuhara]

Quick question:

Would an

Unseelie Fey Magic-Blooded Dragonborn Water Orc
Marshal/Orc Warlord/Dragon Lord

Be a good leadership master?

[Vaz]

Define "Good". I regularly play low level campaigns to make use of the Fighter class, and evocation magic. Simple DnD, for want of a better word; the typical classes you see in video RPG's, so even if everything I pump into Leadership gets me a thousand l1 figjters, if I am fighting against a Wizard who can simply Fly out of Archery range, then summon a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon who gates in another through his wish ability, taking 1000 l1 fighters/warriors will not do me much good.

And that is from just a single spell.

However in a low power campaign, should I take 1000 L1 fighters, they will have a fairly decent chance of taking down an epic BBEG; although he will do a load of damage with his Whirlwind+Great Cleave attacks, eventually the damage will begin to trickle through.

[Tokuhara]

Define "Good". I regularly play low level campaigns to make use of the Fighter class, and evocation magic. Simple DnD, for want of a better word; the typical classes you see in video RPG's, so even if everything I pump into Leadership gets me a thousand l1 figjters, if I am fighting against a Wizard who can simply Fly out of Archery range, then summon a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon who gates in another through his wish ability, taking 1000 l1 fighters/warriors will not do me much good.

And that is from just a single spell.

However in a low power campaign, should I take 1000 L1 fighters, they will have a fairly decent chance of taking down an epic BBEG; although he will do a load of damage with his Whirlwind+Great Cleave attacks, eventually the damage will begin to trickle through.

My thought is to have an army, buff my army with auras, and let them smack faces. My group is very similar to yours where melee guys shine quite a lot, but my followers would likely be barbarians with my cohort being a Gruumsh Cleric who covers down with buffs.

The idea is less the organized army as the Warhammer 40k Waaargh that scares the BBEG silly

[Vaz]

Personally I don't see why not. However, you may want to speak to fellow players and the GM referring to how many guys you can take with you, and how easy it is to replenish them during adventures.

Also, perhaps tasking them with particular jobs in regards to homeland.

Best advice is to speak with your DM; ask him if there is a possibility of utilising your Leadership aspect during a campaign. An Undead player would get annoyed at his opponents never dropping Inflict Wands, or other healing mechanisms, especially when there is no cleric or availability within the party for such. While it might be "challenging" to once in a while face an enemy immhne to element, but if your sorceror only knows spells of such element (and for whatever reason doesn't have spell substitution), the DM is just ruining somebody else fun.

Long story short; your DM should test your characters abilities without rendering them useless.

Like I said, it is nice to be able to use your Army, but being forced to use them in Non-combat ways adds to pleasure; down time between adventures. Perhaps you and your army need to fix up a Watch Tower or Border Castle to protect against Hobgoblin Tribesmen or Troll Hordes pouring out of the mountains. You must then direct your troops to make specific actions while you search for mcguffin x. For a break from adventure, hell, you could even have other PC's take the role of the higher level followers while they direct battles; for example, you could have a l9 Cleric with 2 l8 clerics and 4 l7 marshals (controlled by the PC's) supporting say 40 L1 warriors/barbarians/rangers/scouts, fighting against the enemy while the true PC's are slowly making their way back to camp, or possibly hurrying to join the battle. It makes a nice change of flavour, and allows you to make "down time less boring".

You could even choose to play a game of warhammer if your friends/gm know how to (referring to fantasy or 40k; or indeed any other tabletop wargame; flames of war, dystopian wars, warmahordes etc) to represent.

If a Barbarian can rage and a rogue can sneak attack, then a Barbarian should be able to take part in a campaign when his rage becomes useful, while a Rogue should be able to sneak attack; exactly the same for a Leadership oriented character. Your DM should find ways to balance it; such as no Mass Item farming etc.

[Tokuhara]

This is most likely an evil campaign, where we as PCs have to essentially dethrone some Blackguard BBEG who is (as far as I can tell) acting much like a Lord of Shadow from Castlevania. Sure, we are evil, but sometimes evil cannot be fought with good

[Vaz]

Same difference. Refluff it, but essentially you could take the role of the traditional enemy in encounters with large number of monks to take on elite enemy warriors.

[Tokuhara]

Same difference. Refluff it, but essentially you could take the role of the traditional enemy in encounters with large number of monks to take on elite enemy warriors.

I can imagine my (officially lost count of my #'s. If someone is willing to do the math, thanks) Level 1-6 Orc Barbarians, my level 19 Orc Holy Warrior Cleric of Gruumsh/Eye of Gruumsh and myself, a Barbarian 1/Marshal 5/Orc Warlord 5/Dragon Lord 6/Legendary Leader 3 focused on Leadership and a massive WAAAGH! that I use to attack the BBEG's hall of injustice while he poos his pants seeing orcs hopped up into a blood frenzy and imbued with auras while they beat things with glorified poo sticks as the Dread Necromancer sends in his Special Ops undead forces to assist me. Orcs and the Undead. Wiping out the enemies. How quaint.

[Vaz]

If you are looking at having a version of massed combat, especially in one which is using Rage or auras to modify large numbers of your troops, then consider coming up with some variant to keep track.

An ooze, or preferably, swarm with a few modifications to follow humanoid traits is easier to use imho.

[Tokuhara]

If you are looking at having a version of massed combat, especially in one which is using Rage or auras to modify large numbers of your troops, then consider coming up with some variant to keep track.

An ooze, or preferably, swarm with a few modifications to follow humanoid traits is easier to use imho.

He flat told me, "If you want to control a horde, you have to do it the old fashioned way." So... Any bright ideas y'all?

[Vaz]

That is one of the downsides. You could always take say 5 or so of the followers with you per party member, give each party member that amount of followers to order around (while you yourself utilise your own alongside a cohort), and how to have them aid your actioms; using Teamwork benefits for example; a 6man shield wall, or have them Sneak Attack an enemy (some rogues with TWF Kukri's and some with Crossbows and the ability to shoot into combat means your barbarian lord can possibly allow himself a full attack while the enemy also takes 5+ more sneak attacks a turn.

[Tokuhara]

That is one of the downsides. You could always take say 5 or so of the followers with you per party member, give each party member that amount of followers to order around (while you yourself utilise your own alongside a cohort), and how to have them aid your actioms; using Teamwork benefits for example; a 6man shield wall, or have them Sneak Attack an enemy (some rogues with TWF Kukri's and some with Crossbows and the ability to shoot into combat means your barbarian lord can possibly allow himself a full attack while the enemy also takes 5+ more sneak attacks a turn.

Well supposedly, our BBEG has an army of minions ready to blanket the world in darkness. Judging from my last campaign with him, they will be 3.5 ports of the 4e Minion mechanic (1 hp, reasonable AC, die in one hit), meaning my army of Orcs should be able to paste them with a single wave

[Coidzor]

He flat told me, "If you want to control a horde, you have to do it the old fashioned way." So... Any bright ideas y'all?

Well, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to find the Chainmail rules somewhere. :smallamused:

[toapat]

Well, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to find the Chainmail rules somewhere. :smallamused:

actually, you have to go even farther back then chainmail. Chainmail was the bridge between a wargame and ODnD, possibly it could be called Alpha DnD

[Socratov]

Quick question:

Would an

Unseelie Fey Magic-Blooded Dragonborn Water Orc
Marshal/Orc Warlord/Dragon Lord

Be a good leadership master?
No, you need warchanter in there and some form of DFI (so your followers can actually hit stuff and deal damage). Also If you are any good at optifu you will hit the ceiling for leadershipscore somewhere at lvl 10... without the extra tricks in PoF (I advise you to look at the Admiral's Bicorn from Stormwrack I think, wherever it is, it's in the chrystal keep and it's an awesome item, untyped bonus to charisma checks (including leadership) skills and morale bonuses and voice and voiceactivated shizzle has a range of 120 ft).

And you missed the part where I explained why that assumption is necessary. New bonuses to your score introduced in PoF make it trivially easy to hit a 25 leadership score. This would make over 90% of the sub epic table pointless. It'd get even more silly with the addition of [Leadership] feats from HoB and Dragon mags. Who needs a feat for +4 leadership score if I'm already maxed out at 7th level with a 0 Cha mod?

You're also trying to split those hairs mighty finely for some reason. Its a source book, not your DM. If your DM makes an assumption you get house rule, if a source book makes an assumption you have RAW. Its not sitting in a big Variant sidebar that says ask for DM approval using this variant. Its new, expanded rules for Leadership.

I thought I was being clear enough but let me spell it out for you.

DMG source, General. Says leadership score capped at 25 pre-epic.

PoF source, Specific. Establishes that your leadership score is in fact two parts, Base and Effective. Base is what the DMG meant when it said capped. Effective is unlimited. This even lines up, unless you happen to be a Cha based caster you most likely won't need to take Epic Leadership until you are 21st level or better.

You see how an expansion on older rules can be used to change how they function? The old rules don't become obsolete, just clarified, we changed Leadership to Base Leadership and Effective Leadership, and the PoF source didn't even need to contradict the DMG source, it just provided more details. This isn't material sitting in a side bar telling you to ask your DM before use, its got a whole freaking chapter devoted to it.

When the flavour text leading into the chapter explains its a slight variant, they aren't talking about optional rules, they mean the natural language version of the word;



I don't know if you've actually read Power of Faerun or are just basing this off the two snippets I posted, but the whole book has a theme on it, Rulership. It turns around and follows up Leadership with Influence and Rulership. These expanded rules are essential to the entire existence of the book. Its what its about, building a Nation or Church or Guild, Kingdom level politics and Influence. Settling and conquering the wilderness with hundreds or even thousands of followers (and their families!) Looking to the PC's for leadership, guidance, and their very survival.

The 150ish (162 I think?) followers that the leadership table at a score of 25 provides you are not nearly enough to cover these themes.

That's why PoF introduced 12 points worth of new bonuses before even going for feats. If you are a Leader of men, the ruler of a Kingdom, or even some kind of Warlord, you require many more men.

You cannot say this is a simple variant without tossing the vast majority of the entire book. Expanded leadership rules are the major point of this book.

yes, in the book it makes sense what you mean, however, such a book might not be accepted by his GM, so don't say it's specific trumps general unless it has been established that this variant rule is used (and as such has replaced the old rule). I fyou want to be correct you'd say something like this: If this book is specifically allowed (and it's variant option) then this variant trumps the general rule capping the leadership score. Before you passed off the variant as a specific rule trumping the general rule (in the form of an errata) while that wasn't the case. You just assumed that the PoF rules were accepted as a given, while the rest didn't seem to think so.

remember, when you assume, you make an Ass out of U and Me :smallwink:

[Darius Kane]

yes, in the book it makes sense what you mean, however, such a book might not be accepted by his GM, so don't say it's specific trumps general unless it has been established that this variant rule is used (and as such has replaced the old rule). I fyou want to be correct you'd say something like this: If this book is specifically allowed (and it's variant option) then this variant trumps the general rule capping the leadership score. Before you passed off the variant as a specific rule trumping the general rule (in the form of an errata) while that wasn't the case. You just assumed that the PoF rules were accepted as a given, while the rest didn't seem to think so.
Even if the book is used, it doesn't change the fact that you still need Epic Leadership. >.>

[Sewercop]

I havent checked Powers of faerun in ages, but if some could give me pages where the rules can be found its easy to check if you can go above 25 in score.

I would love to have more followers pre epic :)

[Darius Kane]

I would love to have more followers pre epic :)
Unfortunately, you wont.

[Sewercop]

See, that doesnt mean anything to me. Anyone got pages to refer to, or do i need to examine the book myself? Im lazy, sue me.

Just saying it dont work, dont make it right raw.

[Darius Kane]

If you'd bother reading you'd know EVERYTHING. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14359249&postcount=25)

[Radar]

One thing I remembered: throughout the D&D books there are various temwork benefits, which would allow you to utilise your vast army without the headache of moving over 100 characters at once. They are mostly in DMGII, PHBII and Heroes of Battle as far as I could find via Google. In essence, you can turn quantity into quality.

If you are able to construct your followers, then this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) Commoner guide might have some neat tricks for building effective 1st level characters and you might be interested in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) build for an insane power boost.

[Tokuhara]

Yeah.....

DM just recently banned Leadership and all feats/PrCs/Etc. That are Leadership focused. He says that it's banned due to the ambiguous nature of the feat.

So now, I'll post a new topic on my back-up build.

[Radar]

Yeah.....

DM just recently banned Leadership and all feats/PrCs/Etc. That are Leadership focused. He says that it's banned due to the ambiguous nature of the feat.

So now, I'll post a new topic on my back-up build.
Ouch... which back-up is it again?

[Tokuhara]

Ouch... which back-up is it again?

Link to the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264333)

[the_insomniac]

pof pg. 154



pof pg. 155-156



specifies base leadership is the only score capped, specifies that base is level + cha. So any other bonuses are not capped. Pretty straight forward.

variant rule! Don't you feel smart now? Haha (if you have a problem with thread necromancy, kiss my charisma 6 @$$

[Bullet06320]

Noble Born Dragon Magazine 333 pg 45
Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility and royalty) are always calss skills
+2 to your leadership score if you take leadership
only taken at first and indicates a tie to a noble family

its another way to raise your leadership score and gives an interesting role play aspect being tied to a noble family

[verydarkdagger]

Yeah.....

DM just recently banned Leadership and all feats/PrCs/Etc. That are Leadership focused. He says that it's banned due to the ambiguous nature of the feat.


As you are going to be an Evil character, perhaps i have something interesting to add. I believe i saw in exemplars of Evil something about lackeys and minions, and i guess they were not Leadership based?

Page 30.
Still if you chose to give your Villain the Leadership feat, she gains a cohort and followers *in addition*...
But its rather for NPC due to their CR based table, but who knows...

[Guk]

Has anyone noticed that the leadership feat is actually a flaw?

Right in the DMG just before the section on hirelings there's a section that talks about cohorts.
In that section the DMG clearly states that a PC may take on as many cohorts as they want & of 1 level diff.

Yet as soon as you take the leadership feat your cohort choice becomes limited as does your selection of followers. So for the price of a feat, you get a bunch of restrictions that did not exist before.
This is like taking a flaw and then instead of gaining a feat you also lose a feat. a double whammy if you will.