Question about Illusion Spells

[Chilingsworth]

I've looked in the SRD, but I didn't seem to notice the answer to this question:

When an illusion is successfully saved against, does it disapear for the savee? i.e., If I cast silent image, and someone saves after attempting an atack on it, will they still see the image, but recognize it as an illusion, or will it disapear (at least for them) outright?

I'm asking due to a "cunning plan," I've developed after lastnight's session: During that session, my partymates and I were attempting to take over a fortress when the defenders managed to get the upperhand. I used ghost sound and silent image to convince them that a squad of orcs had broken into the fortress courtyard (we were inside the fortress, having forced them to retreat into the keep.) This drew their attention long enough for us to regroup, inflict a few parting shots, and flee.

We're going to attack them again next session and I was hoping to trick them into ignoring us (or at least me) by making them think I was part of another illusion. Specifically, disguise myself as an orc (I have a hat of disguise) and run in range to neutralize the enemy wizard among another "orc horde." Once they disbelieve the orc horde, will they be able to differenciate me (disgiused as an orc) from the illusion automatically?

Of course, if I make the illusion obvious enough, they shouldn't even test it by attacking, in which case the above might be moot.

[Amidus Drexel]

I'm pretty sure that you can still see illusions if you've made your save for disbelief; you'll just know that they're not real.

As far as your situation goes, I think you'd be fine and that your plan would work. You may want to check with your DM and see how he rules illusions, though.

[HunterOfJello]

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


There are many types of illusions and each one operates differently. As far as figments and phantasms go, you can still see something after you succeed at disbelieving it.

~

There's a sad example of this in the White Plume Mountain adventure.

[bobthe6th]

or just join the orc hoard invisibly... What are you using as the illusion generator?

[Story]

I don't see how this could work.

If they disbelieve the illusion, they will see a bunch of transparent orcs plus a real orc. If they also see through your disguise, they'll see you, poorly disguised as an orc, amongst a bunch of illusionary orcs. Or if their Spot check is much higher than their Will save, they could see you disguised as an orc among a bunch of other orcs.

Either way, I'm not sure how this is supposed to make them ignore you.

[Chilingsworth]

I don't see how this could work.

If they disbelieve the illusion, they will see a bunch of transparent orcs plus a real orc. If they also see through your disguise, they'll see you, poorly disguised as an orc, amongst a bunch of illusionary orcs. Or if their Spot check is much higher than their Will save, they could see you disguised as an orc among a bunch of other orcs.

Either way, I'm not sure how this is supposed to make them ignore you.

It's supposed to make them ignore me because I used the same tactic (illusion of horde of orcs) last time I we faced them. Since they aren't idiots, their first assumption might be "That evil wizard is trying this? Again? Bah, better focus our attention on the other raiders that have been killing our garrison off over the past couple weeks."

[MesiDoomstalker]

Either way, I'm not sure how this is supposed to make them ignore you.

I believe he is trying for a double bluff.

[Story]

My point is that if they save against your illusion at all, the game will be up. If they don't, the question about what a disbelieved illusion looks like is irrelevant.

[rot42]

It is worth noting that a horde of orcs is not "an object, creature, or force".

Mixing the illusory with the real is a good part of the fun of illusions (even Elan can do it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)), and putting yourself in the thick of it sounds like great fun.

[Chilingsworth]

It is worth noting that a horde of orcs is not "an object, creature, or force".

Mixing the illusory with the real is a good part of the fun of illusions (even Elan can do it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)), and putting yourself in the thick of it sounds like great fun.

Actually, I think there is a mob template somewhere that would basically allow a bunch of orcs to be treated as a swarm of medium creatures, i.e. technically, a single creature. I know for a fact that my DM has used such a template before, but it might have been homebrewed.

[Duke of Urrel]

Or if their Spot check is much higher than their Will save, they could see you disguised as an orc among a bunch of other orcs.

I don't think the same observer ever gets both a Will save and a Spot check against one and the same illusory disguise. It's always a matter of either-or, never both-and.* Here's how I interpret the rules.

1. If you design your illusory disguise to make you look like a recognizable individual, you must make a Disguise check that adds an enhancement bonus of +10; observers challenge this check with opposed Spot checks.

2. But if you design your illusory disguise to make you look like a generic orc who is part of a horde, you don't make a Disguise check. Instead, observers make Will saves against your spell's (or magic item's) save DC.


It is worth noting that a horde of orcs is not "an object, creature, or force".

I don't interpret that rule so strictly that you can only create the illusion of ONE thing, never two or more things. Shall we say that since a row of columns is not "an object," therefore you can create only one column with the Silent Image spell? Shall we say that you can create only one thornbush, one flower, or one blade of grass? If not, then why insist that you can create only one orc?

Of course, there are the spatial limits of the Silent Image spell to consider, as well as spatial limits to the Ghost Sound spell, which must overlap with your visual illusion to make it believable as a horde of orcs.

But Story is correct to warn you that the illusion is hard to pull off. Each observer gets to make two saves (or Spot checks): one against your illusory disguise and another against your orc-horde effect. If they see either effect as fake or illusory, you're in trouble. Maybe you can negotiate with your DM to treat your entire illusion holistically, so that each observer gets only one save against it. In this case, if you have different DCs to save against, an observer may still save against only a part of the illusion rather than the whole, with a slightly different result (and a slightly different kind of bad news for you) either way.

______
* I suppose an observer might make both a Will save and a Spot check if you were wearing a two-layered disguise, that is, if you created an illusory (generic) disguise with a fully prepared mundane (generic) disguise underneath, as a sort of back-up. But in this case, your disguise would succeed if either the observer's Will save or her Spot check failed.

[TuggyNE]

I don't think the same observer ever gets both a Will save and a Spot check against one and the same illusory disguise. It's always a matter of either-or, never both-and.* Here's how I interpret the rules.

1. If you design your illusory disguise to make you look like a recognizable individual, you must make a Disguise check that adds an enhancement bonus of +10; observers challenge this check with opposed Spot checks.

2. But if you design your illusory disguise to make you look like a generic orc who is part of a horde, you don't make a Disguise check. Instead, observers make Will saves against your spell's (or magic item's) save DC.

Not exactly. Disguise self, for example, offers a Will save to negate the glamer's effect (which will usually trash your disguise attempt entirely), but only on interacting, which probably can't be done automatically from a distance. That's in addition to making any usual Spot checks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, I think there is a mob template somewhere that would basically allow a bunch of orcs to be treated as a swarm of medium creatures, i.e. technically, a single creature. I know for a fact that my DM has used such a template before, but it might have been homebrewed.

It's not homebrew. It's in DMG2. It certainly has its uses, and now I can add one more to the list.

[rot42]

I don't interpret that rule so strictly that you can only create the illusion of ONE thing, never two or more things. Shall we say that since a row of columns is not "an object," therefore you can create only one column with the Silent Image spell? Shall we say that you can create only one thornbush, one flower, or one blade of grass? If not, then why insist that you can create only one orc?


That would be my point, yes: illusions are incredibly versatile but require that the DM and player be on the same page with respect to what they can do. But that is neither here nor there as the OP's DM apparently considers the use in question valid as well as clever. Perhaps I should have set the text in grey to mark the comment as a potential nitpick aside from the main thrust of the post.