Challenge Accepted: Evil Rogue

[Nullmancer]

Okay, so, for the past four years, I've been playing nothing but good aligned characters, and, my friends are getting tired of it. As a result, one of them has dared me to make a Lawful Evil Rogue, and I have accepted this challenge. I know enough about rogues to know they are one of the weakest classes in the game. I've also noticed that there are not many rogue prestige classes worth going into that fulfill what I want to make this character into.

Here are my ideals:
1) To be able to find more than one way to kill someone (acid fog a room whilst someone is sleeping, put a disease in someone that will kill them over a certain period of time, be able to stand toe-to-toe in a duel, shoot an arrow from the darkness, you get the idea)
2) Needs to be superior enough to lead a group (in a sense, I need to stand over everyone in the group whether they know it or not, and if I don't like what they're doing, be able to "take care of the issue")
3) I need to have options. (I'll explain this in the next paragraph)

As far as multiclassing goes, I've been considering cleric, paladin, and wizard dips.

I thought cleric was a good idea because of the spellcasting options, but at that point, when would sneak attack ever be useful?

Paladin was interesting to me with the whole Tyranny ACF, yet, it has a lesser spell list than the cleric.

Then, wizard came to mind. Spell list of goodies, multiple means of escape, and tons of ways to kill someone. Still, no use for the sneak attack. Besides, I like being divine in some way.

Here is the priority of the classes that I want (if one doesn't work, then I'm willing to try the next in line):
1) Paladin of Tyranny
2) Cleric of Lawful Evilness
3) Wizard

I know paladins and rogues have no synergy at all, but if you guys could help me with an evil breed of those two, that would be amazing. If not, I'm willing to explore other allies and suburbs.

[Chilingsworth]

I'd go with an arcane trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm), myself. You would have a problem standing up in a traditional duel, though. Then again, if you need to do that, you've done something wrong.

EDIT, arcane tricksters can't be lawful, d'oh!

I still stand by my statement that if you need to stand up in a duel, you've done something wrong. :smalltongue:

EDIT2: on wizardly uses for sneak attack: any spell that does damage and requires an attack roll is eligible for sneak attack damage. Then again, if you're using spells that require attack rolls and just do damage, well unless you're hyper-specialized in it, you're possibly doing something suboptimal.

[Answerer]

I know enough about rogues to know they are one of the weakest classes in the game.
No, they're not. I mean, they certainly are not spellcasters, and wands are a poor substitute, but they've also got quite a bit of flexibility.


I've also noticed that there are not many rogue prestige classes worth going into that fulfill what I want to make this character into.
Assassin is not bad, and Unseen Seer is excellent. You want spells, sounds like.

Anyway, for multiclassing, Paladin (of anything) is really only good for Divine Grace. Cleric is a great 1-level dip (in addition to being a fantastic class in general), since Domains are awesome, and you can get gravestrike. If you don't want to be a full-caster and want to use your Sneak Attack (though I will comment that Sneak Attack can be used well with the right spells), dipping Cleric can definitely help.

Swordsage (Tome of Battle) is also a great dip: Assassin's Stance gets you another +2d6 Sneak Attack (yes, you can take it as a Swordsage 1, unless your DM actively wants to mess up your plans by interpreting an ambiguous rule inanely), Shadow Jaunt is a nice short-range teleport, Cloak of Shadows makes you invisible (though only on your turn), etc. Two levels may even be appropriate, so you can get the stance that gives you spider climb and Wis-to-AC (works in Light Armor).

So I'm thinking something like Rogue 3/Cleric 1/Swordsage 2/Assassin, for a start. Definitely take the Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape) for the Rogue. Unseen Seer, advancing Assassin, is probably better than continuing Assassin. Hunter's eye would be a... very good choice for one of your off-list Divinations.

Make sure you take Craven, too.

That's a start, anyway.

[Malroth]

Cloistered cleric dip for travel devotion, knowledge devotion and luck domain :D

[Phelix-Mu]

I think there is a feat that stacks cleric and rogue levels for turn undead and sneak attack dice. Sacred Outlaw from Dragon Magazine Feats Compilation, IIRC. A kender cleric/rogue of mine has used this to great effect.

Sneak attack is not always optimal, but it can be super-killer in role play. I mean, get stealth and some 5d6 sneak attack, and you can kill 90% of the humanoid population of the world in one shot. Have a reputation as a person that does this, and no one in their right mind who knows who you are will give you anything less than everything you ask for. Nice rp stuff, but, again, not really optimization.

There are ACF in Complete Champion to expand what sneak attack works on. Spells is probably more efficient, since they are more easy to shape to current needs, but I find that Trap Sense (the tradeoff for the ACF I am thinking of) can also be gained by a whole slew of stealthy PrC.

I have a somewhat nonsensical crush on warlock/rogue, mainly due to that rule about sneak attack dice stacking with damage from spells/spell-likes that require attack rolls. Plus, adding some of the invocations to rogue is amusing.

It sounds from your list that Charisma will be important, so the cleric and pally dips will be more relevant than wizard or assassin, as they make more use of Charisma. Divine Grace + Evasion or Mettle is fun to exploit. If you want to boss around other people, use Intimidate optimization (particularly nice with Imperious Command, DotU).

[ThiagoMartell]

A Paladin of Tyranny/Rogue using ambush feats to debuff could work reasonably well, I guess. Charisma focus helps with UMD. From the OP looks like you want a spellcaster, though. Really, there are many (better) ways to kill someone in their sleep than acid fog. Acid fog is very obvious. You could poison them, you could stab them, you could convince someone in their household to kill them for you. Those are things a Rogue could do.
Basically, don't approach Rogue with a Wizard mindset. You have no utility belt, you're not Batman. Make good use of what you do have, improvise and try to come out on top, that's the rogue mindset. If you don't approach the class in such a way, it's just a subpar source of bonus damage.

[gorfnab]

NE Rogue 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, CC) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
LE Rogue 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, CC) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Divine Oracle 4
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

Rogue 5/ Assassin 9/ Telfammar Shadowlord 6 - Nightcrawler like assassin
Rogue 3/ Monk (Cobra Strike ACF, Invisible Fist ACF) 2/ Assassin 9/ Telfammar Shadowlord 6 - Take the feat Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius, consider taking 2 levels of Swordsage in exchange for 2 levels of Assassin to gain Assassin's Stance and Shadow Jaunt as well as access to the feat Shadowblade.

[Snowbluff]

Marrulurk (Sandstorm) is a pretty sweet way of getting some Sneak attack. They come with a Nauseating Breath and Death Attack. 3 Monstrous HD (3 BaB, but they get 2d6 SA) and 1 level adjustment (huge ability bonuses, though).

[SowZ]

Rogue isn't so bad! I like Sneak Attack and the class features, (evasion, etc.) are nice. As for damage, I can outdamage just about any non-ubercharger fighter with a rogue. But the Skill Points! Man, I just find it so tough to deal with less than 10 SP a level after playing a rogue.

Daring Outlaw is also very fun. So Rogue/Swashbuckler hybrid.

[Nullmancer]

Sadly enough, Swordsage is banned.

Thiago - you hit it spot on. I want to make this character at least somewhat magical, because otherwise, im limited in what i can do. Sure, I can slip a knife into his pillow so that when he rests his back, he impales himself. I could make it so that if a woman used her perfume or make-up, she directly applied the poison to herself. I could do a number of things. I'm just frustrated because of how, as a lawful evil person, people can so easily toss me around.

To everyone else - thank you so much for your input. this is truly amazing how much feedback im getting from you guys.

I am more willing to try out the rogue play style a little more now. Let's take out the paladin.

In that case, how would I go about making a character than can withstand a one-on-one duel? Lawful Evil does mean I have honor and what not, so I'm not sure how I could go about that as a rogue. That's why i was thinking the rogue/paladin build in the first place. Any tips?

[Snowbluff]

Grabbing Hide in Plain Sight (Assassin, Dark Template, Shadow Dancer)will make you much better at getting your Sneak attacks in without flanking

Telling Blow + Improved Crit (Scimitar/Falchion). Telling Blow adds you SA to an attack to a critical, for even more solo SA.

Staggering Strike will Stagger you target hit with an SA (Save= 10+ damage done).

Targets are flat-flotted in combat until they make an action, so win initiative, then run up for a sneak attack, which will stagger them.

[Nullmancer]

Okay, now, where do I find Telfammar Shadowlord? (which book is it in?)

[Snowbluff]

Okay, now, where do I find Telfammar Shadowlord? (which book is it in?)

Unapproachable East.

[Chilingsworth]

To everyone else - thank you so much for your input. this is truly amazing how much feedback im getting from you guys.


Welcome to the Playground, this is what we do. :smallbiggrin:

[eggs]

Halfling Rogue 1/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Black Dog isn't in the same league as a full caster, but it can be a fun build for a poison-thrower.

Or similar Rogue 1/PoT4/Avenging Executioner with a fear setup.

[Snowbluff]

Welcome to the Playground, this is what we do. :smallbiggrin:

Ugh. Don't remind me. I'm nauseated and should be try to get some sleep for work and class tomorrow. :smalltongue:

[SowZ]

Sadly enough, Swordsage is banned.

Thiago - you hit it spot on. I want to make this character at least somewhat magical, because otherwise, im limited in what i can do. Sure, I can slip a knife into his pillow so that when he rests his back, he impales himself. I could make it so that if a woman used her perfume or make-up, she directly applied the poison to herself. I could do a number of things. I'm just frustrated because of how, as a lawful evil person, people can so easily toss me around.

To everyone else - thank you so much for your input. this is truly amazing how much feedback im getting from you guys.

I am more willing to try out the rogue play style a little more now. Let's take out the paladin.

In that case, how would I go about making a character than can withstand a one-on-one duel? Lawful Evil does mean I have honor and what not, so I'm not sure how I could go about that as a rogue. That's why i was thinking the rogue/paladin build in the first place. Any tips?

Lawful Evil doesn't have to mean you are honorable. It can just mean you are very methodical and systematic. You could be a backstabbing, ruthless, unfair monster and still be LE. Anyway, you could use feints/the tumble skill trick to get guaranteed Sneak Attack in a one on one duel. Also, the craven feat should be one of your primary sources of damage.

[Chilingsworth]

Lawful Evil doesn't have to mean you are honorable. It can just mean you are very methodical and systematic. You could be a backstabbing, ruthless, unfair monster and still be LE. Anyway, you could use feints/the tumble skill trick to get guaranteed Sneak Attack in a one on one duel. Also, the craven feat should be one of your primary sources of damage.

Also, even if you are honorable, that needn't mean you ever willingly engage in fair fights. Instead (just as an example,) it could mean you never attack someone without adequate reason, and you allways give your opponent a chance to get out of your way/work for you. When/if he/she refuses, then they've signed their own death warrant, no "fair play" required.

[Nullmancer]

Okay, that opens up all sorts of avenues. Thanks again, guys.

In conclusion of all of this, I'm getting the idea that rogue mixed with anything other than a martial class (like fighter) would be under powered. Sure, you can make touch attacks deal sneak attack damage, you can make yourself invisible, heck, you can add a smite good ability to your sneak attacks. All that'll do is make it so you rely less on actual thinking power, which will make me as a player less reliant upon myself.

I'll drop the paladin, wizard, cleric, spellcasting in general idea for a more practical approach.

Rather than focus on options, I need to focus on play style.

Kukri and Scimitar Focused Build.

Rogue 5/Assassin 1/Fighter for a bit, so on and so forth.

I'm sorry for all of your guys' effort, since, this whole thread proved to me that rogues are kind of lacking if they have magic. Touch attacks aren't my thing, since I'd rather be able to plain, straight-up hit someone, even if they're in armor.

Thank you again for all of your help. I do appreciate it. :)

[TheifofZ]

It's pretty obvious you aren't use to Lawful Evil, or Rogue, yet. Part of the problem is getting the right mindset. As a rogue, you should -never- be thinking about entering a fair 1v1 duel. Ever. And anyone Lawful Evil would probably use poisoned weapons or something as long as there isn't a rule saying "no poisoned blades." Even if you're lawful, you're still evil. Playing fair is for "goody-two-shoes" and glory hungry fools.
Remember, a rogue has Sneak Attack for a reason. Your job is to sneak around, steal everything, and backstab everyone. If you're lawful evil, you'll probably want that in contract form, with loopholes to abuse as necessary.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, poison use, though classic thematically for fantasy for an evil rogue, is so not worth using in D&D unless you can get it super cheaply and way pump up the DC, (and even then . . .) that pragmatism dictates that you should probably avoid it.
That being said, as a rogue . . .even a good rogue would avoid a fair fight, while an evil rogue, well, they just have so much more options for making things unfair.

[eggs]

In conclusion of all of this, I'm getting the idea that rogue mixed with anything other than a martial class (like fighter) would be under powered. Sure, you can make touch attacks deal sneak attack damage, you can make yourself invisible, heck, you can add a smite good ability to your sneak attacks. All that'll do is make it so you rely less on actual thinking power, which will make me as a player less reliant upon myself.
I don't follow this. It sounds like you're equating gaining more power with becoming underpowered? Casting classes and Assassins mix very well - much better than most martial classes. Caster rogues are higher powered than noncasters, but there are still a lot of choices and player involvement in the game.

If you go into Assassin, I'd strongly recommend advancing its casting as consistently as you can, and not screwing around too much with the martial classes like Fighter once you qualify.

[SowZ]

Okay, that opens up all sorts of avenues. Thanks again, guys.

In conclusion of all of this, I'm getting the idea that rogue mixed with anything other than a martial class (like fighter) would be under powered. Sure, you can make touch attacks deal sneak attack damage, you can make yourself invisible, heck, you can add a smite good ability to your sneak attacks. All that'll do is make it so you rely less on actual thinking power, which will make me as a player less reliant upon myself.

I'll drop the paladin, wizard, cleric, spellcasting in general idea for a more practical approach.

Rather than focus on options, I need to focus on play style.

Kukri and Scimitar Focused Build.

Rogue 5/Assassin 1/Fighter for a bit, so on and so forth.

I'm sorry for all of your guys' effort, since, this whole thread proved to me that rogues are kind of lacking if they have magic. Touch attacks aren't my thing, since I'd rather be able to plain, straight-up hit someone, even if they're in armor.

Thank you again for all of your help. I do appreciate it. :)

If you want to go Assassin without any other casting classes, Rogue 8/Swashbuckler 1/Sneak Attack Fighter/Assassin 10 is a nice build. Consider Martial Study-(It lets you take a Tome of Battle maneuver. Pick up something for utility, Cloak of Deception for one round Invisibility or Shadow Jaunt for a 50 ft. teleport. Island of Blades isn't bad since it lets you flank people when you aren't flanking them.) Martial Stance-(Assassin's Stance. Gives you 2d6 more SA dice.) Shadow Blade, (Let's you add your Dexterity to melee attack damage.) Craven, (you add your character level to all sneak attack damage. Awesome, awesome, awesome.) And Daring Outlaw, (it let's you add your Rogue and Swashbuckler level together to determine special abilities of each. Meaning Rogue 8/Swashbuckler 1 has all the special abilities of both classes at level nine. You will get weapon finesse for free and you add your intelligence to melee damage!)