View Full Version : Is my Epic Archer missing anything?
The concept is a dual crossbow wielding character using Hand Crossbow Focus/Quick Draw/Glove of Master Strategist, (which is basically glove of storing +1,) to pull it off. Let us assume this trick works. I assumed starting at level 21 and used XP on some stuff to where I am a bit under 21. I would hit 21 in no time, though.
My race- Unseelie Fey Strongheart Halfling.
My utility- I have wings with perfect flight. I have permanent See Invisibility, Comprehend Languages, Reduce Person, and Detect Magic. I can dimension door 2/day and have a Bag of Holding II. I can re-roll any roll 1/day. I have a pitiful 52 skill points. I have Darkstalker. Movement speed 20 or 40 depending on my buffs. Fly speed 40 or 70 also depending.
My defenses- AC:48. FF:29 TAC:38 Will:22 Ref: 36 For:19 HP is 101 if average, 198 if maxed. I have Evasion. 1/day cancel out confused, daze, fascinated, or stunned. Continuos Spell Turning. Continuos Freedom of Movement. Continuos Mind Blank. Once per day I can ignore a Death Effect.
My offense- Crit on 17-20. 45 ft. range on my Hand Crossbows. Also have a +1 Holy Comp. Longbow with a range inc. of 220. 150 bolts that allow me to re-roll every attack, (Lucky,) 100 of which ignore almost all damage reduction, (Force,) the rest that have Phasing, (pass through walls.) I have +17 Initiative and I can roll Init. twice and take the better roll. Standard to hit is 48. I have 18 attacks, 8 of which I make at +44, 4 at +39, 4 at +34, and 2 at +28. Damage is 1d2+26 per attack. If it is a sneak attack, add 7d6+20 to that.
What am I missing?
toapat
2012-12-11, 12:39 PM
A feat list, lest we cant really judge whether you have everything covered
I suspect you are missing both the Ranger ACF that lets you force Flatfooted, and the 2.5x Dex to damage.
docnessuno
2012-12-11, 12:57 PM
A feat list, lest we cant really judge whether you have everything covered.
This. For example we have no idea of how are you getting 18 attacks (it is possible but can be unoptimal depending on how it's achieved).
The only thing i can see is that, at that level, you might want to upgrade your constant see invisibility to constant true seeing.
A feat list, lest we cant really judge whether you have everything covered
I suspect you are missing both the Ranger ACF that lets you force Flatfooted, and the 2.5x Dex to damage.
Aye, I have not dipped Ranger. I have a few things that are floating in limbo right now. As for gold, my +1 Holy Longbow is up for scrubbing. And, not sure what to do after the first couple levels that are kind of filler levels, I grabbed two more levels of Targeteer for Ranged Weapon Mastery, which could also be on the chopping block.
Feats are the TWF tree, Darkstalker, Craven, Pistol Crossbow Focus, Weapon Focus, (longbow,) [If I could wrangle the DM into letting this one slide and be a Bow Initiate with crossbow focus yippie. Otherwise, with so many attacks, and being as close as I have to be, avoiding AoO for shooting into melee was a must.] Precise Shot, PB shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Spec., Ranged Weapon Mastery
I know weapon spec. sucks, but RWM is nice. +2 to hit and +2 to damage in a feat stacks up well when you have 18 attacks. Dex times two and a half would stack up much better, though, especially with 44 Dex. I'd like to push my average damage over 2k, if possible. I am sitting at a little under 1500 right now.
Oh, and I have Summer's Caress, so Magic Circle against Non Nature, (a prot from summons, teleportations, and an additional +2 AC and +2 saves for non nature creatures.) Low light vision, and DR 15/cold iron. (Iron vulnerability 1d6.) Also forgot to mention I have Power Shot, (Power attack with a bow.) Which can help a little.
This. For example we have no idea of how are you getting 18 attacks (it is possible but can be unoptimal depending on how it's achieved).
The only thing i can see is that, at that level, you might want to upgrade your constant see invisibility to constant true seeing.
Yeah, it is something to consider. But I have see invisibility as a permancied spell. I'd rather not use another item slot. Maybe I could, though. Oh, uh, I am getting 18 attacks mostly because of the splitting enchantment.
docnessuno
2012-12-11, 01:04 PM
I tend to stay away from permanencied spells on my characters if possible. You are just one dispel check away from losing a siezable amount of gold and/or experience.
I tend to stay away from permanencied spells on my characters if possible. You are just one dispel check away from losing a siezable amount of gold and/or experience.
Hmm, yeah, I see that. Using the paying a Wizard rules it is only about 3 thousand. But still, possibly losing one of my features so easily is a bit nerve-wracking.
Oh, figure I should say I do want this playable. Not too TO. But I figured going with an archer into an Epic Game I should be able to build unrestricted and still be kinda UP, if anything.
Level Spread, 4 targeteer, 3 Deepwood Sniper, 2 OotBI, 8 Peerless Archer, 3 Rogue
toapat
2012-12-11, 01:14 PM
More then 1 level of Targetteer Varient Fighter is worthless, you already are getting the only thing you need from it anyway.
you level composition should be: Rogue 15+/Ranger 4/Targetteer 1. This gets you Rapid Shot (Good), plenty of sneak attack, and the ability to Flank AND force flat footed at range (Awesome). then of course you take the three ranged Dex to Damage things.
If ToB is allowed, you shouldnt be using crossbows though, as Aptitude weapon lets you apply Deadeye, Crossbow Sniper, and Vital Aim to Greatbows. Crossbows simply dont have the support that makes Bows as sexy, but bows dont normally have what the Crossbow brutally effective, aptitude lets you paply Crossbow Sniper to bows, thus making Crossbows irelevant.
Dual-wielding crossbows seems awesome in theory, but alot of what makes archery even relevant cant be applied to them, ie Splitting.
And DW archery should be getting 20 attacks a round.
Psyren
2012-12-11, 01:14 PM
I didn't see Crossbow Sniper on your list, did you get that one?
docnessuno
2012-12-11, 01:17 PM
Hmm, yeah, I see that. Using the paying a Wizard rules it is only about 3 thousand. But still, possibly losing one of my features so easily is a bit nerve-wracking.
You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.
---
You cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures.Actually you need:
A scroll of CL10 Permanency and 1000 xp avaiable in the scroll [6250 gp]
A scroll of CL3 See Invisibility [150 gp]
Enough UMD to activate both scrolls.
And eveything would be auto-dispelled by a CL20 caster.
More then 1 level of Targetteer Varient Fighter is worthless, you already are getting the only thing you need from it anyway.
you level composition should be: Rogue 15+/Ranger 4/Targetteer 1. This gets you Rapid Shot (Good), plenty of sneak attack, and the ability to Flank AND force flat footed at range (Awesome). then of course you take the three ranged Dex to Damage things.
If ToB is allowed, you shouldnt be using crossbows though, as Aptitude weapon lets you apply Deadeye, Crossbow Sniper, and Vital Aim to Greatbows. Crossbows simply dont have the support that makes Bows as sexy, but bows dont normally have what the Crossbow brutally effective, aptitude lets you paply Crossbow Sniper to bows, thus making Crossbows irelevant.
Dual-wielding crossbows seems awesome in theory, but alot of what makes archery even relevant cant be applied to them, ie Splitting.
And DW archery should be getting 20 attacks a round.
I am not dual wielding because it is so good, I just like guns akimbo. I'm assuming I can put splitting on my bolts because if I can't, yeah, screw it. I don't remember the splitting enhancement mentioning that you need two hands to do it. Also, where am I getting the extra two attacks from?
Ranger four saves me two feats, so that works good, thanks. What is that ACF called? Peerless Archer isn't bad, though, it gives me just as much sneak attack and magic arrows and a few other tasty things. I can definitely cut out the three levels of Targeteer. I wanted to grab the second one because I have a feat intensive build. Do you guys not think Deepwood Sniper is worth the two level dip for Improved Critical when I have so many attacks and so much precision damage? Also, the two levels of OotbI, should I just eat the attack of opportunity to take a step back every time I get in melee range? Right now I have fifty five foot increments, I will be cut down to thirty if I cut out all these classes so I may have to eat it pretty often. I am low on HP, and going more rogue will decrease it even more.
I didn't see Crossbow Sniper on your list, did you get that one?
No, I didn't, thanks.
Actually you need:
A scroll of CL10 Permanency and 1000 xp avaiable in the scroll [6250 gp]
A scroll of CL3 See Invisibility [150 gp]
Enough UMD to activate both scrolls.
And eveything would be auto-dispelled by a CL20 caster.
What about the rules for paying a wizard to cast a spell?
docnessuno
2012-12-11, 01:29 PM
What about the rules for paying a wizard to cast a spell?
Feel free to do it. Now the wizard has permenent see invisibility and got some free gold on top of it.
As for the level composition:
Targeteer 4 (weapon spec leading into mastery) is not bad at all.
Feel free to do it. Now the wizard has permenent see invisibility and got some free gold on top of it.
Ah, I see. You're right, that is how the spell reads.
toapat
2012-12-11, 01:38 PM
I am not dual wielding because it is so good, I just like guns akimbo. I'm assuming I can put splitting on my bolts because if I can't, yeah, screw it. I don't remember the splitting enhancement mentioning that you need two hands to do it. Also, where am I getting the extra two attacks from?
Rapid shot = +1 attack with each ranged weapon you have, Targetteer has a thing that gives you +2 attacks, but you relaly shouldnt be investing the 2 extra levels in targetteer for Arrow Swarm.
Perfect TWF= All attacks with offhand, combined that is 10/round. Last i knew Splitting was bow specific though, meaning the only realistic way to get good rate of fire is by combining Permananced Polymorph (Arrow Demon) and Dualwield Footbows.
Ranger is from PHB2, Distracting attack varient, you also need to have taken the Halfling first Sub level for rogue for +1 sneak dice with range.
Rapid shot = +1 attack with each ranged weapon you have, Targetteer has a thing that gives you +2 attacks, but you relaly shouldnt be investing the 2 extra levels in targetteer for Arrow Swarm.
Perfect TWF= All attacks with offhand, combined that is 10/round. Last i knew Splitting was bow specific though, meaning the only realistic way to get good rate of fire is by combining Permananced Polymorph (Arrow Demon) and Dualwield Footbows.
Ranger is from PHB2, Distracting attack varient, you also need to have taken the Halfling first Sub level for rogue for +1 sneak dice with range.
I believe the text reads, "Any arrow or bolt fired," but I could be wrong. Oooh, halfling sub level is very pretty, thanks. Does distracting attack give you a +2 bonus to hit?
At level twenty one, Perfect TWF is a must, yeah.
toapat
2012-12-11, 01:47 PM
I believe the text reads, "Any arrow or bolt fired," but I could be wrong. Oooh, halfling sub level is very pretty, thanks. Does distracting attack give you a +2 bonus to hit?
even if splitting can be applied to bolts, Arrows have a massive advantage in that there is an arrow in MM5 that has Keen as a non-magical effect, and thus can have a magic item created that spawns +5 of those arrows that can also be any metal
even if splitting can be applied to bolts, Arrows have a massive advantage in that there is an arrow in MM5 that has Keen as a non-magical effect, and thus can have a magic item created that spawns +5 of those arrows that can also be any metal
Hmm, yeah, traditional archery has the edge. I still don't think I want to sacrifice the concept. I am definitely going to take 4 levels in Ranger, though.
toapat
2012-12-11, 02:10 PM
Hmm, yeah, traditional archery has the edge. I still don't think I want to sacrifice the concept. I am definitely going to take 4 levels in Ranger, though.
Well, Ranger 4/Targetteer 1/Rogue Rest is standard for archery because of the ability ranger gives rogue to actually function, while targetteer makes you able to actually deliver damage efficiently. In addition to that, both Endurance and Track RAW can be traded out for more useful feats, as they are simply bonus feats, not class features like Fighter gets.
Talderas
2012-12-11, 02:11 PM
even if splitting can be applied to bolts, Arrows have a massive advantage in that there is an arrow in MM5 that has Keen as a non-magical effect, and thus can have a magic item created that spawns +5 of those arrows that can also be any metal
Splitting can be applied to bows, crossbows, arrows, and bolts.
Well, Ranger 4/Targetteer 1/Rogue Rest is standard for archery because of the ability ranger gives rogue to actually function, while targetteer makes you able to actually deliver damage efficiently. In addition to that, both Endurance and Track RAW can be traded out for more useful feats, as they are simply bonus feats, not class features like Fighter gets.
What's the easiest way to go about doing that? Shuffle shenanigans? Anyway, Peerless Archer gets Sneak Attack, too, so I think that should work.
toapat
2012-12-11, 03:44 PM
What's the easiest way to go about doing that? Shuffle shenanigans? Anyway, Peerless Archer gets Sneak Attack, too, so I think that should work.
nope, just standard feat retraining, which may actually be more cheesy then DCFS
Chilingsworth
2012-12-11, 04:28 PM
Let's see... for a start, I generally prefer bows. Regardless, you want to give all your ranged weapons the force property (Magic Item Compendium) it's a +2 and allows you to ignore DR and ignore incoporeal miss chance. (turns your shots into force effects.) If possible, get a times per day item of 20th CL greater magic weapon. Since you'll ignore DR, you don't need an epic enhancement bonus on your weapons. If you can't get a custom magic item of the spell, get a 20th CL wand of it and UMD it.
Your ranged weapons should be +1 force splitting weapons (and add more weapon properties as you wish, don't waste money on an epic enhancement bonus.) With CL 20 GMW, they'll serve as +5.
At ECL 21 your WBL should be 975k, so gold shouldn't be too much of an issue if you buy wisely.
toapat
2012-12-11, 04:32 PM
Let's see... for a start, I generally prefer bows. Regardless, you want to give all your ranged weapons the force property (Magic Item Compendium) it's a +2 and allows you to ignore DR and ignore incoporeal miss chance. (turns your shots into force effects.) If possible, get a times per day item of 20th CL greater magic weapon. Since you'll ignore DR, you don't need an epic enhancement bonus on your weapons. If you can't get a custom magic item of the spell, get a 20th CL wand of it and UMD it.
Your ranged weapons should be +1 force splitting weapons (and add more weapon properties as you wish, don't waste money on an epic enhancement bonus.) With CL 20 GMW, they'll serve as +5.
At ECL 21 your WBL should be 975k, so gold shouldn't be too much of an issue if you buy wisely.
actually, the only significant advantage of bows after all the stuff ive said is those arrows specifically, that are by and far rediculously good. otherwise manyshot which is really bad
Glimbur
2012-12-11, 05:10 PM
nope, just standard feat retraining, which may actually be more cheesy then DCFS
Double check your copy of PHB II. Changing class features would be Class Feature retraining, which doesn't allow rangers to change their Track or Endurance. You can argue that, with later ACFs that trade them out (via the Substitution Level retraining option), you should be allowed to trade in to them, but they aren't general feats. With feat retraining,
you can exchange one of the feats you selected for another feat. You never selected Track or Endurance, so there you are.
docnessuno
2012-12-11, 05:26 PM
Double check your copy of PHB II. Changing class features would be Class Feature retraining, which doesn't allow rangers to change their Track or Endurance. You can argue that, with later ACFs that trade them out (via the Substitution Level retraining option), you should be allowed to trade in to them, but they aren't general feats. With feat retraining, You never selected Track or Endurance, so there you are.
If OP is willing to adventure into cheese land, a chaos shuffle casting from an NPC costs 2450*2=4900 gp. Quite affordable.
Dr.Epic
2012-12-11, 06:12 PM
Yes. All epic archers need a hot, female, red head assassin.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me2o2pQ5OS1rio8ubo1_500.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Scarlett_Johansson_as_Black_Widow.jpg
:smallwink:
animewatcha
2012-12-11, 06:27 PM
If you are bringing in targeteer whose in drag mag, then why not use martial monk 1 to get perfect twf pre-epic?
toapat
2012-12-11, 06:36 PM
If you are bringing in targeteer whose in drag mag, then why not use martial monk 1 to get perfect twf pre-epic?
which issue is that from?
Curmudgeon
2012-12-11, 06:53 PM
Feats are the TWF tree, Darkstalker, Craven, Pistol Crossbow Focus, Weapon Focus, (longbow,) [If I could wrangle the DM into letting this one slide and be a Bow Initiate with crossbow focus yippie. Otherwise, with so many attacks, and being as close as I have to be, avoiding AoO for shooting into melee was a must.] Precise Shot, PB shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Spec., Ranged Weapon Mastery
I've never heard of that feat. Where's it from?
animewatcha
2012-12-11, 08:32 PM
which issue is that from?
Same one as targeteer, 310. Martial is on page 45. Specificly it adds fighter bonus feats in addition to monk list to choose from. No language on needing to meet pre-reqs. Since Perfect is on fighter bonus feat list ( for epic ), it qualifies ( ignoring the epic requirement as per monk shenanigans ) for martial.
Basically, a case of RAI versus RAW screwup.
Let's see... for a start, I generally prefer bows. Regardless, you want to give all your ranged weapons the force property (Magic Item Compendium) it's a +2 and allows you to ignore DR and ignore incoporeal miss chance. (turns your shots into force effects.) If possible, get a times per day item of 20th CL greater magic weapon. Since you'll ignore DR, you don't need an epic enhancement bonus on your weapons. If you can't get a custom magic item of the spell, get a 20th CL wand of it and UMD it.
Your ranged weapons should be +1 force splitting weapons (and add more weapon properties as you wish, don't waste money on an epic enhancement bonus.) With CL 20 GMW, they'll serve as +5.
At ECL 21 your WBL should be 975k, so gold shouldn't be too much of an issue if you buy wisely.
Greater Magic Weapon is definitely a thought. As for the moment, I have 100 Lucky Force bolts that I made to counter harder creatures.
I've never heard of that feat. Where's it from?
I think the underdark book. It is meant for Drow but not restricted to them if I recall. It counts as and works just like Weapon Focus but also as Rapid Reload.
Curmudgeon
2012-12-12, 01:21 AM
I think the underdark book. It is meant for Drow but not restricted to them if I recall. It counts as and works just like Weapon Focus but also as Rapid Reload.
You're thinking of Hand Crossbow Focus (Drow of the Underdark, page 50). It doesn't count as Rapid Reload for feats and effects dependent on that feat, though.
You're thinking of Hand Crossbow Focus (Drow of the Underdark, page 50). It doesn't count as Rapid Reload for feats and effects dependent on that feat, though.
Sure, but I don't need anything that requires Rapid Reload as a pre-req. It does count as a Weapon Focus pre-req, though. Thanks for specifying the book and page for me, though, and clarifying the name. (:
Gandariel
2012-12-12, 03:52 AM
If you have enough Int, consider swapping some Rogue levels to Assassin!
same sneak attack, plus spells and hide in plain sight!
toapat
2012-12-12, 08:39 AM
If you have enough Int, consider swapping some Rogue levels to Assassin!
same sneak attack, plus spells and hide in plain sight!
and the loss of bonus feats.
Assassin is good if you are trading out for things that improve your ability to obliterate things. The character we are working on however does not gain the benefits of the Rogue Class Abilities which are needed to be able to get PBS - Rapid Shot - Manyshot - Improved Rapid shot, PBS - Precise shot - Improved Precise Shot, Deadeye, Crossbow Sniper, Rapid Reload, and the Two Weapon Fighting Feats (of least priority). 12 feats, 1 of which we have granted by class feature.
With the number of levels of rogue, we are 1 level away from a second bonus feat, and if ranger 1 and 3 are taken on levels which grant feats by hitdice, then the rules for feat retraining are not smart enough to prevent you from retraining out the useless Endurance and Track. that is 11 of the feats we need there, with the last one being taken later because it is un-needed for a while.
If you have enough Int, consider swapping some Rogue levels to Assassin!
same sneak attack, plus spells and hide in plain sight!
I'd have to get to level four assassin spells to use it at range, though. And yeah, I am kinda feat intensive. Also, I dumped Int.
toapat
2012-12-12, 04:31 PM
I'd have to get to level four assassin spells to use it at range, though. And yeah, I am kinda feat intensive. Also, I dumped Int.
Standard rule: If it is normally considered underpowered for its investment, go do research, there is something that makes that idea or class awesome, an Archer should focus on primarily Dex and Int, cause they end up having a large investment in rogue if done right. IMO grey elves end up being the best archers, as long as flaws are allowed
Unless you are monk, in which case you are screwed if you want to stay monk.
Gandariel
2012-12-13, 01:20 AM
I'd have to get to level four assassin spells to use it at range, though. And yeah, I am kinda feat intensive. Also, I dumped Int.
I wasn't talking about Death attack specifically.
yes, death attack is cool, but it's situational and may require investment to be effective.
i was just saying, if you don't have other obligations, assassin levels are a good substitute for Rogue levels, if not strictly better.
skillpoints are good, same sneak attack, plus spells and hips.
Also, you don't really need manyshot or improved precise shot. (Also, switch to hand crossbows and take hand crossbow focus instead of rapid reload)
I wasn't talking about Death attack specifically.
yes, death attack is cool, but it's situational and may require investment to be effective.
i was just saying, if you don't have other obligations, assassin levels are a good substitute for Rogue levels, if not strictly better.
skillpoints are good, same sneak attack, plus spells and hips.
Also, you don't really need manyshot or improved precise shot. (Also, switch to hand crossbows and take hand crossbow focus instead of rapid reload)
Already done that, actually. I do have hand crossbow focus. Assassin does have some spellcasting, too, which is cool.
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