Casting preparation time for multiclassed character and Chameleon prestige class

[Lost in books]

I have been working on a build and prestige classes and I have found out that when it comes to preparation time, while in theory is doable, in practical sense of adventuring it looks like any build runs into the problem of being inneficient due to time. Time is a luxury that breaks multiclass milticaster build.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the rules, but here is what I understand and what I see as the problem.

An arcane caster class requires 8 hours of rest (how many of sleep is enough? 2-4 hours out of the 8?)
Then after 8 hours of rest he requires one hour of study.

A divine caster is not bound by the rest rules but he still needs one hour of prayer to prepare his spells.

So let me make a theorical build. I have a Wizard1/Ranger4. He must rest for 8 hours and in the morning he spends one hour preparing arcane spells and one hour praying for spells.

Time needed 8 rest + 2 regaining spells= 10 hours of the day.

Now let's say that he picks another caster class. That will add another hour to his preparation time, for example a factotum has to prepare his spells as a wizard so that amounts to one hour, or even one level of cleric still requires to pray separately for that class list.

So in order to get the spells from those classes he will have to use a total of 10 + 1 hour per separate spellcasting class. Or is there a rule that when you spend an hour praying or studying that you can combine the study or prayer with the respectives arcane or divine classes?

This is not to count the maneuvers or psionic rules I do not know about! And the bigger question arises from prestige classes, specifically the Chameleon!

With two casting abilities a Chameleon not only has to spend one hour gaining a focus but after gaining the focus he still has to pray or prepare spells.

A 5th level Chameleon able to gain two focuses requires 1 hour per focus and then one hour per ability to prepare spells. SO using the example above a character who is a Wizard1/Ranger4/Factotum1/Chameleon5 who wants to have all his spells will need to have:
8 hrs rest+ 1hr wizard + 1hr Ranger + 1hr Factotum + 1hr Arcane focus Chameleon + 1hr arcane study Chameleon + 1hr Divine Focus Chameleon + 1hr Divine prayer Chameleon for a total of = 15 hours getting ready for the day!!!

Even as a flat out Chameleon with no other spellcasting dips require you to spend two hours to gain one casting ability. So that it is still 8 hours + 4 hours if you wanted to use both the divine and arcane focus at 5th level.

It is already hard enough to get the rest for just one spellcasting class, why some of the builds in the forum ask you to dip so much into other classes but looks like they don't take into account the prepapration time? Or is there a rule I am missing? Especially with the chameleon.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I've only got one point to make as someone with more experience can probably answer the rest better.

A fifth level chameleon can adopt a focus twice per day but each one overwrites the previous one. In your example of the Wizard1/Ranger4/Factotum1/Chameleon5, the character would only take 2 hours for his chameleon preparations as he only needs to adopt one focus and prepare one set of spells (since a second focus and spell list would just overwrite the first and undo the last two hours of preparation.)

At level 7 a chameleon could adopt two focuses (foci?) in one hour and would then have to spend 2 hours total preparing spells for each so the rest of your point stands once you get there.

[Darth Stabber]

Personally I rule all morning preperations (all spells, psionics, incarnum, binding, martial prep, ect) as one hour, unless they add up to less than an hour. 2 hours at the beginning of the day after 8 hours of sleep everyday, makes mystic theurge annoying and bad as opposed to just bad.

[Lost in books]

Well that's my point, Some classes go from bad to worse and some builds go from playable to unsustainable when you start dipping or in the case of the Chameleon when you are able to gain two focuses at level 7! (Thanks for the correction Lord Il Palazzo, but you knew what I meant)

I believe that most DMs will do as Darth Stabber says. But my question is that if by RAW if I am calculating right. Because we all know that in a campaign you will find yourself not having enough time to rest properly or can be engaged constantly depending on the quest. So if the rules are like I think they are, then you will have to at best case scenario choose only one casting class because you most likely will not be able to study all your abilities. And Chameleon requiring two hours to get one casting side just became less appealing.

So a Mystic Theurge having to dedicate two hours for spells or any multiclass running in the same problem is a pain! This definitely gimps out many "super builds" as they seem to be good in theory if it was a perfect world, but an adventurers life is never perfect.

And obviously i am asking because i am planning a build but i want to be able to play it and the way it looks I would have to spend 6 hours of a day trying to get my full allotment of spells once i reach the sweet spot :/

[Lord Il Palazzo]

(Thanks for the correction Lord Il Palazzo, but you knew what I meant)I do. Like I said, your point stands.

I'm pretty sure you are as I haven't seen any rule that lets you stack or overlap preparation time, but I've only been playing for a year and a half.

My group is usally pretty lax about spell preparation, assuming that it just gets done unless there's some very pressing reason the players wouldn't have had time. (The same goes for eating and other less interesting bits of the game.) In the end, it kind of just has to come down to what the DM and the group in question will allow. The rules can get pretty silly if they're enforced as written, but that's true of a lot of D&D rules.

[Phelix-Mu]

The DM is well-within rights to persecute casters and such over the requirements for using class abilities, just as a good DM will challenge the paladin to make tough choices about keeping his vows, or will challenge the druid to both take part in party activities and protect natural order.

Frankly, sleep is a problem for 90% of humanoids. Eight hours a day is what should be considered standard for optimum operation. When you put a couple hours on top of this, it's fairly small. The real problem isn't that casting prep rules are onerous, but that the actual impact of loss of sleep on any kind of humanoid character is not exploited enough by DMs. I, for one, love endurance challenges (five days worried about attacks while trapped in a tent during a blizzard, just off the top of my head, sounds like fun).

As for remedies, since every caster/manifester/etc should expect to not always have time to rest and prepare, carry scrolls, pots, and wands that replicate the spells that you just can't do without. If you suspect that, tomorrow you may spend running around on some mission late into the night, rest and prepare spells and then don't use them until the crucial time.

This connects to problems I have with critiques of the Vancian casting system. Magic is already strong, and part of its limitation in the past has been resource managment. By reducing spells prepared to some kind of magic pool, we make magic ever more comparable to just being able to clench you fist and deck someone, and repeatable as long as you can draw breath. Considering the effect of power point recharge schemes extended to magic and how this would impact the nature of the world makes me sick. Casters would crush everyone, and every world would end up looking like Dark Sun, a blasted world cursed by the tyranny of Sorcerer Kings/Gods and the like. [/rant]

[nedz]

Since you only adventure for 15 minutes a day you have 23 hours and 45 minutes to do everything else including learning your spells.

OK — that's slightly facetious but you would have to multiclass into quite a few vancian classes before this became an actual issue. Since all such time is generally fast forwarded through this is unlikely to effect play. Bear in mind that you only need to relearn spells which you have actually cast as well.

[Lost in books]

@Nedz,

I know that "technically" you are in combat for only a few minutes a day especially since in 6 seconds you are able to charge someone at a distance of at least 20 feet and then split them in half, or be able to reach for an arrow knock it on the bow aim and shoot multiple times, or dig in a spell component pouch, find the powdered silver bag draw a circle on the ground and chant the syllables for that protection spell. And while some encounters could take a few rounds, some are even over in the first. So yeah, I know where you are coming from.

But my concern, or question for the playground DMs is how do you play this? I understand that before you are in an adventure you could get ready but once you are on the move could you really expect to spend so many hours preparing spells without any interruption?

I also understand that wizards can retain the spells they haven't used yet, but what about clerics? And when it comes to one of the coolest combinations around (IMHO) of Factotum and Chameleon, the preparing spells system just breaks apart when both of them do not retain spells. You have to prepare your spells daily on both of them.

And the situation is that we have a new DM, as that he doesn't have that much experience and since I want to play my character I have to help him by knowing everything there is to know about my own abilities. And I will have to tell him that I potentially will need 5 hours worth of preparation time in addition to the 8 hours due to the mechanics of the class since we are trying to stick with RAW so we don't mess up too much. I guess that any advice from the playground will help us keep things balanced and fair.

But honestly, if i am right about the calculations of preparing time, I may have to just make a different character unless the playground can help with their experience and advice.

[nedz]

I can only speak from personal experience because I don't know how everyone else does it; but in the wilderness parties in my games tend to rest up for 12 hours — in 3 x 4 hour watches, in towns it's slightly different: you would only be loosing an extra hour. Even when trekking across the wilderness, most parties only travel for 8 hours a day, with the occasional encounters spread throughout the day. Your character would not be able to take a watch, that's all.

What might cause an issue is if the party gets attacked during the last watch, (when you are doing your preparation), or if the party is in a big hurry, or if the days are very short (i.e. it's the middle of winter). I'm not sure what the impact of this would be: do you have to do all of your prep in day-light ?

The worst case would seem to be that the party can travel for fewer hours per day, but that would not be likely.

[Phelix-Mu]

@Nedz,
But my concern, or question for the playground DMs is how do you play this? I understand that before you are in an adventure you could get ready but once you are on the move could you really expect to spend so many hours preparing spells without any interruption?


In general, the party's noncasters will be grateful enough to have magic around that waiting around/training for a couple hours while spells are prepped is cool. No fighter is gonna be upset about the cleric's time-consuming prayers (or if they are, the stars don't bode well for their longevity).

Finally, in my experience, past level 13 or so, there is no more travel by land. Unless DM has removed the instantaneous/nigh-instantaneous transport spells, then travel becomes the shortest part of the day, followed by the part spent fighting, followed by the part spent planning/finding the fight, which is about the same length as spell prep. At higher levels, magic fixes much more than it could ever inconvenience people early on.

Hybrid casters not so much, but even the Factotum/Chameleon benefits from no need to walk anywhere anymore.

[Darth Stabber]

I suppose that if you have a 2 hour prep time, you could do it as last watch of a 10 hour encampment, but that is fraught with problems in and of itself (notably any interruption will require them to start over). Assuming you do more than just lay out sleeping bags at night and eat trailrations on the move, there is the time of setting camp before bed, and packing it up in the morning. If the cleric prepares at night, and the wizard in the morning, you can have the wizard help set up camp and the cleric help pull up stakes. However my experience is that most parties will just throw out sleeping bags and sleep.

[Phelix-Mu]

Parties that don't set watch are very popular among necromancers as a source of fresh corpses.

[nedz]

Parties that don't set watch are very popular among necromancers as a source of fresh corpses.

They're Monster Munch.

[Darth Stabber]

Parties that don't set watch are very popular among necromancers as a source of fresh corpses.

Wand of rope trick, CL 9. That's 50 nights of worry free sleeping.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, my bad. There are ways around necromancer baiting, ofc. Few as simple as just being careful, though. And every rose has its thorns. Couldn't you capture the rope trick window in some other extradimensional space to hurt those in the rope trick? Would be difficult, but hardly impossible. You could probably put a portable hole on a large, flat piece of wood and then levitate that piece of wood up until the window for rope trick was in the portable hole. The effect isn't clear, but "hazardous" sounds plenty vague enough to steer clear of as a cautious player.

After all, who isn't up for some deeppockets abuse?