Ranger 2wf 3.5 (with many roles to fill)

[Varis]

With the current campaign coming to a close in the next month or 2, I'm giving some thought on what character to make for the next campaign. (that will start shortly after)

I decided on Ranger so I can do stealth missions, be the party ambush alert, a good damage dealer and emergency healer.

However, a pure Ranger seems a bit lacking to me.

So here is my concept: Race Elf

1. (elf sub)Ranger - weapon finesse feat, favored enemy: undead
2. Sword Sage - (sudden leap maneuver ToB p. 89)
3. Sword Sage - Shadow Blade feat, add wis to AC
4. Ranger - ranger feat: 2 weapon fighting
5. Ranger -
6. Ranger - Practiced Spellcaster
7. Ranger - favored enemy: constructs
8. Ranger - ranger feat: improved 2 weapon fighting
9. Ranger - dark stalker
10. Ranger -
11. Ranger -
12. Ranger - leap of the heavens, favored enemy: elementals
13. Ranger - ranger feat: greater 2 weapon fighting
14. Scout -
15. Scout - Swift Hunter (complete scoundrel)
16. Scout -
17. Ranger -
18. Ranger - improved skirmish (comp. scoundrel)
19. Ranger -
20. Ranger - favored enemy: evil outsider (or perhaps dragons)

Hope I'm not missing anything critical to make this work

[Eldariel]

With the current campaign coming to a close in the next month or 2, I'm giving some thought on what character to make for the next campaign. (that will start shortly after)

I decided on Ranger so I can do stealth missions, be the party ambush alert, a good damage dealer and emergency healer.

However, a pure Ranger seems a bit lacking to me.

So here is my concept: Race Elf

1. (elf sub)Ranger - weapon finesse feat, favored enemy: undead
2. Sword Sage - (sudden leap maneuver ToB p. 89)
3. Sword Sage - Shadow Blade feat, add wis to AC
4. Ranger - ranger feat: 2 weapon fighting
5. Ranger -
6. Ranger - Practiced Spellcaster
7. Ranger - favored enemy: constructs
8. Ranger - ranger feat: improved 2 weapon fighting
9. Ranger - dark stalker
10. Ranger -
11. Ranger -
12. Ranger - leap of the heavens, favored enemy: elementals
13. Ranger - ranger feat: greater 2 weapon fighting
14. Scout -
15. Scout - Swift Hunter (complete scoundrel)
16. Scout -
17. Ranger -
18. Ranger - improved skirmish (comp. scoundrel)
19. Ranger -
20. Ranger - favored enemy: evil outsider (or perhaps dragons)

Hope I'm not missing anything critical to make this work

Is there a reason you wish to go Ranger instead of plain Swordsage? 'cause while Ranger certainly works too, I'd imagine Swordsage would work better. As for ways to improve, well, Sword of the Arcane Order would expand your Ranger spell list a lot. You'd also want to take the Scout-levels earlier to get some more damage going early on.

Overall though, that seems fairly solid, though you're pretty short on ways to move and full attack (Sudden Leap and that's it); I'd take at least Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] over Leap of the Heavens and maybe another time over Practiced Spellcaster (caster level isn't hugely important for the spells you want to prepare in any case). Alternatively, splashing a level of Cleric with Travel and e.g. Undeath domains would work better (gets you inherent Turn Undead-pool to fuel Travel Devotion).


But I'm still wondering if you're going to enjoy this more than a straight Swordsage or maybe Ranger 2/Swordsage 18 (or even Master of the Nine) if you want the wilderness skills, as the class seems to do everything you want done.

[Flickerdart]

If it's going to be your job to heal, it's probably a better plan to go for Mystic Ranger.

[limejuicepowder]

What level are you starting at (and what level do you expect to play to), what are your ability scores, what race do you want to be, what books are available, and are their any noteworthy house rules?

:smallbiggrin:

That said, straight swordsage might be the way to go. You will be a strong skirmisher and secondary damage dealer, though you may lose some of the nature-y feel. Dipping ranger (though I would go no more then 2) is probably worth it - swordsages can get good mileage out of TWF.

Another option is the basic scout 4/ranger X with swift hunter. This build is a pretty good chassis but still needs some help to really be strong. A way to move and full attack is a priority.

Factotums can literally do anything, and that includes a rugged wanderer who is at home in the wild. A factotum handbook is the best resource if you go this route.

Last piece of advice, and it involves a question: are you going to be fighting an extremely disproportionate amount of a certain type of enemy? If so, straight ranger can be pretty beastly if you OP-out favored enemy. Improved favored enemy and favored power attack should not be underestimated - I partied with a ranger using those feats in a zombie game, and he swung for 40+ each hit, without charging, buffs, or magic items besides a basic +1 weapon, at level 6. This combines very well with knowledge devotion.

[Varis]

Is there a reason you wish to go Ranger instead of plain Swordsage? 'cause while Ranger certainly works too, I'd imagine Swordsage would work better. As for ways to improve, well, Sword of the Arcane Order would expand your Ranger spell list a lot. You'd also want to take the Scout-levels earlier to get some more damage going early on.

Overall though, that seems fairly solid, though you're pretty short on ways to move and full attack (Sudden Leap and that's it); I'd take at least Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] over Leap of the Heavens and maybe another time over Practiced Spellcaster (caster level isn't hugely important for the spells you want to prepare in any case). Alternatively, splashing a level of Cleric with Travel and e.g. Undeath domains would work better (gets you inherent Turn Undead-pool to fuel Travel Devotion).


But I'm still wondering if you're going to enjoy this more than a straight Swordsage or maybe Ranger 2/Swordsage 18 (or even Master of the Nine) if you want the wilderness skills, as the class seems to do everything you want done.

Thanks for looking over this. Where to start ... I'll be leveling this guy from 1st so I thought waiting on scout until after getting greater 2 weapon fighting would keep my offhand attack reasonably at pace with my mainhand.

cleric + travel devotion sounds like a nice addition but I'm not sure about how much synergy it would give. I'd have to get more then the 10 charisma I have, take the BAB hit... hmm and with scout at 3rd, won't cleric 1 slap a 20% xp penalty on me?
The campaign often goes epic (early 20's) eventually so perhaps taking it at 21st may be a good idea.

[Varis]

What level are you starting at (and what level do you expect to play to), what are your ability scores, what race do you want to be, what books are available, and are their any noteworthy house rules?

:smallbiggrin:

That said, straight swordsage might be the way to go. You will be a strong skirmisher and secondary damage dealer, though you may lose some of the nature-y feel. Dipping ranger (though I would go no more then 2) is probably worth it - swordsages can get good mileage out of TWF.

Another option is the basic scout 4/ranger X with swift hunter. This build is a pretty good chassis but still needs some help to really be strong. A way to move and full attack is a priority.

Factotums can literally do anything, and that includes a rugged wanderer who is at home in the wild. A factotum handbook is the best resource if you go this route.

Last piece of advice, and it involves a question: are you going to be fighting an extremely disproportionate amount of a certain type of enemy? If so, straight ranger can be pretty beastly if you OP-out favored enemy. Improved favored enemy and favored power attack should not be underestimated - I partied with a ranger using those feats in a zombie game, and he swung for 40+ each hit, without charging, buffs, or magic items besides a basic +1 weapon, at level 6. This combines very well with knowledge devotion.

pretty much anything 3.5 minus BoED, BoVD, dragon magazines and unearthed arcana. Starting at level 1.

This IS a swift hunter build with swordsage thrown in for the swift action jump and adding dex to damage. (using 2 short swords)
favored enemy undead, constructs and elementals got chosen to make skirmish damage work on almost anything. leap of the heavens was so the swift action jump would have a reasonable DC.

I have not decided on race or stats yet but feel free to go to town with 28 points buy system.

I'm still quite unsure of ranger spells. of what I've seen in the spell compendium and PHB gave an impression of lots of utility, very little damage boost.

[BowStreetRunner]

Just keep in mind that the later you take your swordsage levels, the higher the level of maneuvers that will be available. Every level in another class counts as 1/2 initiator level. With your current build you will only be able to pick up 1st level maneuvers.

[Flickerdart]

Sudden Leap isn't going to help you much, since you'll need a full-round action every time you want to refresh it. The Warblade's refresh mechanic may be more your speed.

[vhfforever]

I'm agreeing with the others. Delay your Adept class until 5th Level so you can pick 2nd level Maneuvers.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for looking over this. Where to start ... I'll be leveling this guy from 1st so I thought waiting on scout until after getting greater 2 weapon fighting would keep my offhand attack reasonably at pace with my mainhand.

Losing 1 BAB isn't horrible; you get your first off-hand on level 7 then and you can take the feat on level 9. Your second off-hand comes on level 12 which is conveniently when you gain the feat.


cleric + travel devotion sounds like a nice addition but I'm not sure about how much synergy it would give. I'd have to get more then the 10 charisma I have, take the BAB hit... hmm and with scout at 3rd, won't cleric 1 slap a 20% xp penalty on me?

Cleric 1 would slap you with an XP penalty if your group plays by those rules. You can circumvent that by taking Cleric 2 and Scout 3 trading levels though.

10 Charisma isn't a big deal; you still get 3 Turn Undead uses. If you have e.g. Undeath as your second domain, that grants you Extra Turning for 7 more attempts, more than enough to carry you through. You can also use Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) to keep up your skillpoints and to potentially pick up Knowledge Devotion too if that interests you.

Anyways, being able to take your move action as swift action and full attack is absolutely amazing for a Swift Hunter. Doubly so since you can move so for a whole minute (10 rounds) with 1 use of Travel Devotion, allowing 3-4 uses easily carry you through a day much of the time (which you gain with 10 Charisma, Extra Turning and base Turn Undead attempts).


Really though, the more I hear the more I think you might want Ruby Knight Vindicator. Emergency healer? Check! Hell, you can heal as much as you want, with Cleric spell list. Skill monkey? If you use Cloistered Cleric and Crusader as basis you get 6+Int and 4+Int regularly so you should be fine. Frontliner? An amazing one at that (in spite of losing BAB early, it doesn't lose any later on, and it has Cleric-spells to buff and Crusader maneuvers). And it gets Armored Stealth so you can skulk around in a heavy armor if you feel so inclined.

But yeah, if you want Swift Hunter, I'd definitely go Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 2/Ranger -> with or without the two levels of Swordsage (overall, it's fine either way).

[Varis]

Losing 1 BAB isn't horrible; you get your first off-hand on level 7 then and you can take the feat on level 9. Your second off-hand comes on level 12 which is conveniently when you gain the feat.



Cleric 1 would slap you with an XP penalty if your group plays by those rules. You can circumvent that by taking Cleric 2 and Scout 3 trading levels though.

10 Charisma isn't a big deal; you still get 3 Turn Undead uses. If you have e.g. Undeath as your second domain, that grants you Extra Turning for 7 more attempts, more than enough to carry you through. You can also use Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) to keep up your skillpoints and to potentially pick up Knowledge Devotion too if that interests you.

Anyways, being able to take your move action as swift action and full attack is absolutely amazing for a Swift Hunter. Doubly so since you can move so for a whole minute (10 rounds) with 1 use of Travel Devotion, allowing 3-4 uses easily carry you through a day much of the time (which you gain with 10 Charisma, Extra Turning and base Turn Undead attempts).


Really though, the more I hear the more I think you might want Ruby Knight Vindicator. Emergency healer? Check! Hell, you can heal as much as you want, with Cleric spell list. Skill monkey? If you use Cloistered Cleric and Crusader as basis you get 6+Int and 4+Int regularly so you should be fine. Frontliner? An amazing one at that (in spite of losing BAB early, it doesn't lose any later on, and it has Cleric-spells to buff and Crusader maneuvers). And it gets Armored Stealth so you can skulk around in a heavy armor if you feel so inclined.

But yeah, if you want Swift Hunter, I'd definitely go Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 2/Ranger -> with or without the two levels of Swordsage (overall, it's fine either way).

Holy cow, the Ruby Knight Vindicator is... a bit OP lol.
Hmm, for swift hunter I don't "need" scout 3 right?

I could go Scout 1,Swordsage2,cloistered clericd1,ranger 16 ?

Won't my skirmish advance with swift hunter until I qualify for improved skirmish?

[Darrin]

I could go Scout 1,Swordsage2,cloistered clericd1,ranger 16 ?


You need at least 3 levels of Scout to qualify for Swift Hunter. This will delay Improved TWF until at least level 9. I wouldn't worry about Greater TWF until level 15 or 18, the -10 to hit means it's probably going to miss more often than hit, so no reason to put it ahead of more reliable damage (e.g., Skirmish damage).

I would suggest:

Race: Wood Elf
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Weapon Finesse.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF
3) Swordsage 1. Feat: Shadow Blade.
4) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6.
5) Scout 2.
6) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 2d6AC+1/4d6AC+3.
8) Swordsage 2. Assassin's Stance.
9) Cloistered Cleric. Feat: Extra Turning. Deity: Sehanine Moonbow. Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and maybe Elf, Dream, or Moon domain.
10) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
11) Ranger 4.
12) Ranger 5. Feat: Staggering Strike, Craven, or maybe Adaptive Style. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
13) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF. (Use Gloves of the Balanced Hand before this)
14) Highland Stalker 1.
15) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
16) Swordsage 3.
17) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
18) Ranger 8. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5
20) Swordsage 4.

To avoid XP penalties... Hmm. Well, Wood Elf takes Ranger out of the mix (favored class), then you could mix up the order a bit and try something like Cloistered Cleric 2/Swordsage 3/Scout 4/Ranger 9/Highland Stalker 2. The 4th level of Scout is key to getting Swift Hunter or Improved Skirmish early, but if it can wait you could skip it with Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 2/Scout 3/Ranger 11/Highland Stalker 2.

If you want more Skirmish damage, you can also replace a chunk of those Ranger levels with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4, which could get you up to 7d6/9d6 skirmish damage.

[Gwendol]

Look for the ranger spells in the spell compendium: they greatly enhance the spellcasting.

Also, you might want to replace the animal companion with something else. Distracting attack perhaps (PHBII)?

[BowStreetRunner]

Look for the ranger spells in the spell compendium: they greatly enhance the spellcasting.

I would also look into the Primal series of spells in Dragon Magic. Primal Hunter, Primal Instinct, Primal Senses and Primal Speed are all 24 hour buffs that are very good for rangers.

They are even better if you are a dragonblood race if that interests you at all. Forestlord elves from Dragon Magic would qualify, as would a Dragonborn who was originally an elf, as they keep the elf subtype.