Building a Crusader. Input wanted

[DarkEternal]

I'm usually the guy who is the DM, so you can guess that I'm all excited to sit in the players shoes for once. I like the Tome Of Battle book, and the DM will allow me to play a Crusader, which is interesting since he can be played like a Paladin without the stick up his arse.

Anyway, the campaign will start us at level 2, and I am an amateur when ToB is concerned. Still, eager to learn some stuff. I'm not yet entirely sure how the entire concept works(even though I read it over and over again, must be one of those things that works better in practice then in theory) of it, what with gaining maneuvers, having a unique mechanic of which ones he can use in combat in any given round and so on, but I still want to make it my own original creation.


So, we were given a 30 point buy system. I'm not yet entirely sure what my main stats should be, though given the book and the few hand books I saw, Str and Con seem to be the main stats.

I was thinking of going with:

Str 15
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 13

Still thinking if I should make Int and Cha 12 and upping Con or Str. Not big on various races, so I was thinking going with good old human. The extra feat and skill points can do wonders. For feats, I was thinking:

Extra Granted Maneuver---Seems to be a must on Crusader to get 3 instead of 2 maneuvers at the start of combat

For second, I was reading a lot about the Stone Power one. Seems to basically give you DR, what with your already awesome delaying pool, but I'm not sure. Especially since I don't know if I'll go for Granite shards(don't intend to use Stone Dragon weapons as a focus), and Power Attack does seem inviting.

Now comes the weapons area. The fact that he is proficient with all armors and shields(and if I'm not mistaken, that means Tower shield in this case as well?) sounds good for making a tincan character, but I am also interested in using some other weapons, aside the norm. I don't want to be yet another knight with a sword-hammer-axe. I was looking at some third party books, and liked the Kwan Dao. It's basically a crescent spear that can attack adjacent enemies. Here is the excerpt from the book:

Kwan dao is essentially a heavier version of a halberd, granting the same +2 bonus to Trip attempts but may not be set to receive a charge. Kwan dao forms are very aggressive and teach the practitioner to spin the weapon in tight arcs around his body to build up momentum for wide, slashing strikes.

Kwan Dao: Large Martial Weapon; 25 gp; Dmg 1d10; Critical 19-20/x2; Range –; 20 lb.; Slashing

If that seems unlikey, a halberd seems nice too. Is the two handed weapon a good choice for this kind of character, or should I rather invest in being a shield user?

So, have at me playground. I'm looking to have fun, though of course I'd like to have a few moments in the spotlight as well. Seems like the skills I need to max are Inimidate-Diplomacy-Balance and a few other ones, but those two seem great enough.

Also was looking at prestige classes, though to be honest none of the ones mentioned in ToB seem to be my cup of tea. Eternal Blade is Elf only, so that is out of the question, and Ruby Knight Vindicator requires some stuff I don't like(deity for one). I was looking at a few from other sources, but I'll consider those some other day, for now, I'll try focusing on crusader as the main build, since I don't know if this will be a short campaign or something longer, and of course if I'll die terribly in a short and gruesome manner since it's expected of me to be at the front of everything.

The alignment would be Chaotic good. Yeah, seems odd for the class, but if I understood it normally, you can't be any sort of a neutral character as a Crusader, and LG is not something I wanted to play with this character. Instead, I had a sort of naive knight archtype who read a lot of stories about heroes and now wants to go out there, topple evil governments, save the innocent and so on. If he learns the world is not such a peachy place through roleplaying, all the better, hell, he might change alignments when he gets more seasoned.

[Eldariel]

If you want Eternal Blade, Wild Elf, Snow Elf, Wood Elf & co. all offer decent alternatives to go down that route. But like with all ToB, just taking 20 levels in the class is more than fine. No PRCs are needed or necessarily even desired; though Master of the Nine is really good on Crusader due to how their maneuver gaining works.

I don't really see why you'd want 15 Str & 15 Con over 16 Str and 14 Con; Int 13 makes sense if you want Combat Expertise but Cha 13 probably isn't worth your while in any case. Charisma 15 would open up Imperious Command though.


All the martial weapons are mostly fine but reach weapons are generally better; Kwan Dao should work just fine as does e.g. Glaive or Guisarme. Readied against Mounted isn't really worth that much anyways, since it requires readied action (though if you can use maneuvers with it, it could be worth your while occasionally).


The big thing about Stone Power is using it with Delayed Damage Pool. Your DDP holds a certain amount of damage; if you attack with Stone Power the next turn, you'll have Temporary HP to absorb the damage from Stone Power when it procs only having to use Stone Power when you will take damage for sure.

Also, it allows doubling up on your Temporary HP; if you take damage over your DDP in one round but have Temporary HP, that damage will be absorbed followed by you being able to absorb the damage in DDP next round with another application of Stone Power. In short, Stone Power is good if you want to be incredibly hard to kill (combine this with the healing stance and the healing strikes and you can see how you can take even large amounts of punishment and still keep yourself at full).

[DarkEternal]

Nah, screw Eternal Blade. Let the long ears take it.

Hmmm, I haven't really thought about Combat Expertise, but you are right, it seems like a good investment. Question, though. How do you use both Combat Expertise and Stone Power? Does it "stack"? What I mean is, if you decide to take 3 points of attacking for one, can you use those same three for the other, or must you choose more for both to work? Charisma is more for the fluff really, though Imperious command is awesome, and adding your charisma to saves isn't too bad either. I think I'll save that one for when I play a Factotum.

For the stats, I'm not really sure. I guess the extra hp seems inviting, though it all evens out sooner or later. I may just take that 16 Str 14 Con while leaving Dex and Wis at 10.

So, let me see if I got the Stone Power thing right. My crusader fights Bob the orc barbarian. I use a Stone dragon strike, or a normal attack(I guess it doesn't work with using any othe rmaneuvers from other schools, if I read it right) and decide to take -2 with Stone Power. I hit(Does it work if I miss? The wording is not precise there), and gain 4 temporary hp. Bob's turn comes next. He swings his greataxe and hits me for 5 damage. This goes in the Delayed pool, wasting away 5 hp, and giving me an effective +1 to hit and damage on the next turn. When my turn comes, I lose the 4 temp hp from damage and one from the pool that goes off my actual health, while still having the bonuses to strike.

That should be about right?


Also, forgot to ask in my original post, how does one deal with the maneuvers, which ones you gain in which round? Do you people follow the suggested route with cards and pulling them to see what maneuvers you can use? That seems like a hassle, especially if you nag the DM with it, but I guess it can be done. At early levels it's okay, later on with more to choose, could be cumbersome.

[Eldariel]

Nah, screw Eternal Blade. Let the long ears take it.

Fair. Straight Crusader is more than viable.


Hmmm, I haven't really thought about Combat Expertise, but you are right, it seems like a good investment. Question, though. How do you use both Combat Expertise and Stone Power? Does it "stack"? What I mean is, if you decide to take 3 points of attacking for one, can you use those same three for the other, or must you choose more for both to work? Charisma is more for the fluff really, though Imperious command is awesome, and adding your charisma to saves isn't too bad either. I think I'll save that one for when I play a Factotum.

You can use both at the same time by RAW. Of course, your To Hit penalties will be such that you will almost be guaranteed to whiff. Combat Expertise is more interesting for the feats it enables, particularly Improved Trip (can't be used with maneuvers by default but Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) changes that).


For the stats, I'm not really sure. I guess the extra hp seems inviting, though it all evens out sooner or later. I may just take that 16 Str 14 Con while leaving Dex and Wis at 10.

This is reasonable. In general, take even numbers over odd numbers since, y'know, even numbers give you bonuses while odd numbers don't.


So, let me see if I got the Stone Power thing right. My crusader fights Bob the orc barbarian. I use a Stone dragon strike, or a normal attack(I guess it doesn't work with using any othe rmaneuvers from other schools, if I read it right) and decide to take -2 with Stone Power. I hit(Does it work if I miss? The wording is not precise there), and gain 4 temporary hp. Bob's turn comes next. He swings his greataxe and hits me for 5 damage. This goes in the Delayed pool, wasting away 5 hp, and giving me an effective +1 to hit and damage on the next turn. When my turn comes, I lose the 4 temp hp from damage and one from the pool that goes off my actual health, while still having the bonuses to strike.

That should be about right?

Stone Power is kinda wonkily written but yeah, those restrictions are about right. Anyways, it works if you miss; half the point. But no, that's not right. This is the beauty of Stone Power:

It's your turn; you swing Bob normally.

Bob the Orc swings you for 5 damage, which is put into your DDP.

It's your turn; you swing Bob using Stone Power for -2 (or -3 if you can) gaining 4 or 6 temporary HP. Your attack might also allow you to heal some of the damage with Martial Spirit stance for instance.

At the end of this turn, you take the damage in your DDP. Since you have those Temporary HP the DDP damage is absorbed by those, only dealing at most 1 point of damage to you (if you only took -2 from Stone Power).


Now, imagine it's your turn, you hit Bob with -2 from Stone Power (gaining 4 Temporary HP).

Bob hits you back, dealing 9 damage. 5 goes to Delayed Damage Pool, remaining 4 is dealt to your temporary HP.

Next turn, you take -3 from Stone Power and swing Bob again, gaining 6 Temporary HP. At the end of this turn the damage from Delayed Damage Pool is dealt to you and you lose 5 Temporary HP, leaving you with 1 more for Bob's swing next turn. You didn't take a single point of real damage during this whole exchange.


Also, forgot to ask in my original post, how does one deal with the maneuvers, which ones you gain in which round? Do you people follow the suggested route with cards and pulling them to see what maneuvers you can use? That seems like a hassle, especially if you nag the DM with it, but I guess it can be done. At early levels it's okay, later on with more to choose, could be cumbersome.

Crusader doesn't get that many maneuvers readied at once even later on so it works out. And yeah, WoTC themselves supplied maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) for all the maneuvers; it's probably the easiest way (you could also use a die to roll which you get every time but that tends to take longer). Basically, you just have a deck with all your maneuvers and draw as many as you're granted. Each round, draw one more (and put all used ones to the "discard pile"). Once your deck is empty and you should draw, shuffle 'em up. Same rules as in basically every card game.

[navar100]

Ask your DM if he's willing to use the homebrew errata that can be found on the net. If yes, continue on as normal. If not, you have a problem. Tome of Battle has one major screw up. The progression of when you get stances do not match when stances become available based on your level, and crusaders get screwed the worst. By RAW, you cannot get a 3rd level stance until 8th level, a 5th or 6th level stance until 14th level, and you cannot get an 8th level stance at all. You would have to spend a feat for them. The errata fixes this somewhat. You still need to spend a feat for a 3rd level stance and a 6th level stance if you want them.

Without the entire errata there are solutions.

1) Lump it. Spend the feat if you want.
2) Ask for house rule allowing adepts to change a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels there after. Still need to spend a feat for a 6th level stance, but that's ok.
3) Ask for house rule to delay stance progression by one level which is what the errata does.
4) Multi-class two levels before you reach Crusader level 8. Not a bad option. Fighter is good for feats. Warblade or Swordsage is good for more maneuvers. Still need to spend a feat for 3rd level and 6th level stances.

Staying in crusader is just fine. Three prestige classes are worth it if you want them. Eternal Blade provides good class features for its own merits. Ruby Knight Vindicator is a nice cleric/crusader multiclass facilitator. It would take multiclassing with Warblade or Swordsage two levels, with extreme bias on my part if you can manage it, Master of Nine is superb. The BAB and HD hit hurt, but oh the maneuvers you will have. You gain a new readied and granted maneuver every level. When I played one, with Extra Granted Maneuver feat by campaign end at 18th level I had 11 maneuvers readied, 9 of them granted, and refreshed for free every three rounds. That was AWESOME! You will not miss the feats you could have had instead due to Master Of Nine's requirements.

Worthwhile Feats:

Stone Power works well with your Steely Resolve class feature. At higher levels it could become effectively obsolete but still not bad.

Extra Granted Maneuver is worth it. Refreshing every three rounds instead of four makes a real difference.

Vital Recovery is an interesting one. Since you refresh for free, the feat is like having a free potion of Cure Light Wounds once per encounter. Works well with Steely Resolve when not using Stone Power or a healing strike, or even in addition. At high mid level it becomes a free potion of Cure Moderate Wounds.

Martial Stance. Even with a fix you still miss out on 3rd and 6th level stances unless you multi-class/prestige class. Thicket of Blades is a popular 3rd level stance. People who love Lockdown strategy crave it. For the 6th level stance I love Aura of Perfect Order. A guaranteed roll of an 11 on a d20 once per round is a big deal. Auto-hit an important strike. Auto-make a saving throw. Auto-make a skill check. (Hi, Use Magic Device!)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Extra Granted Maneuver doesn't just give you an extra one at the start of combat, but each time the cycle starts over again. You typically get to use a given maneuver once every four rounds, but with that feat you can use a given maneuver once every three rounds, definitely worth it.

Human is less important if you can take flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), it's standard to get up to two and there are some really interesting choices (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30). Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) can also be useful, Detached, Hardy, Passionate, and Plucky are favorites as long as you penalize a good save to boost a poor one, and I'm a big fan of Quick since you can spend a feat on Improved Toughness and negate its drawback.

The most optimal race choice is probably going to be Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), and you an buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA for 3,000 xp at your 3rd class level and eventually catch back up to the rest of the party. You'll keep the ability score adjustments, movement modes (including swim speed), and size/shape of Water Orc, but you'll lose all the other traits including the drawbacks. If you get Dragonborn before Mineral Warrior you don't lose anything that it grants. Get the Heart aspect for Dragonborn with the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon, and you can use your breath attacks to debuff as many opponents as possible and use your best maneuvers in between breaths.

Crusader doesn't really need Int to be very high, due to four base skill points/level, and you don't really need Wis or Cha to be high either. With the above race you'll get Str +6, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -4, so with 30 pointbuy I'd go 14, 14, 14, 12, 14, 10, for Str 20, Dex 12, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6. If you're not going to get a bonus from Cha, you may as well dump it, and three skills per level should be plenty. Wear heavy armor and carry a heavy shield, I'd go with a Spiked Gauntlet since your base weapon damage won't even matter.

Starting feats with two flaws should be Extra Granted Maneuver, Entangling Exhalation, and probably Shield Specialization (PH2), and plan on getting Shield Ward (PH2) at 3rd and probably Heavy Armor Optimization (RoS) at 6th. For your flaws I'd pick Bravado and No Time For Book Learning, and definitely get Quick and Plucky. Use entangling breaths as often as possible, keep Martial Spirit up and use your best strike when you can't breathe, and use Crusader's Strike whenever you or someone else in range is hurt.

[Snowbluff]

Ask your DM if he's willing to use the homebrew errata that can be found on the net. If yes, continue on as normal. If not, you have a problem. Tome of Battle has one major screw up. The progression of when you get stances do not match when stances become available based on your level, and crusaders get screwed the worst. By RAW, you cannot get a 3rd level stance until 8th level, a 5th or 6th level stance until 14th level, and you cannot get an 8th level stance at all. You would have to spend a feat for them. The errata fixes this somewhat. You still need to spend a feat for a 3rd level stance and a 6th level stance if you want them.

Without the entire errata there are solutions.

1) Lump it. Spend the feat if you want.
2) Ask for house rule allowing adepts to change a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels there after. Still need to spend a feat for a 6th level stance, but that's ok.
3) Ask for house rule to delay stance progression by one level which is what the errata does.
4) Multi-class two levels before you reach Crusader level 8. Not a bad option. Fighter is good for feats. Warblade or Swordsage is good for more maneuvers. Still need to spend a feat for 3rd level and 6th level stances.


5) Play an Eternal Blade.

Eternal Blades are nice because of the early maneuvers, as well. Even if you aren't interested in that sort of thing, learning the Diamond Mind maneuvers without eating the ridiculous feat requirement of Master of Nine (Which while a good class, is easier for Swordsages) is nice.

[DarkEternal]

Sorry, don't like elves, so I won't play an Eternal Blade. Like I said, I'm not much into making an extremely powerful character, more like something that will be okay in the party and not crush everything in sight. I am worried about being screwed out of stances though since I do already have quite a limited amount of them as it is. What is this feat?

[Snowbluff]

Sorry, don't like elves, so I won't play an Eternal Blade. Like I said, I'm not much into making an extremely powerful character, more like something that will be okay in the party and not crush everything in sight. I am worried about being screwed out of stances though since I do already have quite a limited amount of them as it is. What is this feat?

Cakers. You are looking for the Martial Stance Feat. It gives you a stance that you qualify for.

[DarkEternal]

So, had a few sessions. I like the character thus far. Still level 2 and almost bit the dust in every encounter. I have a question about maneuvers. Unlike other classes, Crusaders always get maneuvers in combat, and can't really run out. What I am interested though is, can they have more then one of the same maneuver fill slots? For instance, on level 2 I have 5 maneuvers known. Can I ready 2 Crusader strikes, or is it always one for each known? I know Warblades can have his slots filled with the same maneuver over and over again.

Also, does he have to expend all of his maneuvers before he gets the other ones? For instance, I expended all of my maneuvers except Charging Minotaur which requires me to charge, but I'm stuck in melee combat. I can't get the other maneuvers until I expend that last one, and since for instance the enemy always closes up on me, it's impossible, unless I used it early on, so basically I'm stuck with this attack? Did I get that right?

[Gigas Breaker]

So, had a few sessions. I like the character thus far. Still level 2 and almost bit the dust in every encounter. I have a question about maneuvers. Unlike other classes, Crusaders always get maneuvers in combat, and can't really run out. What I am interested though is, can they have more then one of the same maneuver fill slots? For instance, on level 2 I have 5 maneuvers known. Can I ready 2 Crusader strikes, or is it always one for each known? I know Warblades can have his slots filled with the same maneuver over and over again.

Also, does he have to expend all of his maneuvers before he gets the other ones? For instance, I expended all of my maneuvers except Charging Minotaur which requires me to charge, but I'm stuck in melee combat. I can't get the other maneuvers until I expend that last one, and since for instance the enemy always closes up on me, it's impossible, unless I used it early on, so basically I'm stuck with this attack? Did I get that right?

Nobody can ready the same maneuver twice, not even a warblade. Crusaders refresh their maneuvers whenever there aren't maneuvers left to be granted. It doesn't matter if you use them or not. You refresh maneuvers and are randomly granted three new maneuvers every four rounds no matter what. It is every three rounds if you have extra granted maneuver.

[DarkEternal]

Where does this say? It says you are randomly given two of your maneuvers(three with Extra maneuver) and at the begining of each of your other turns you get a random new maneuver from the pool of your known maneuvers. I never read, nor seen anything about the number of rounds taken or anything in the Crusaders descriptions.

[Gigas Breaker]

Where does this say? It says you are randomly given two of your maneuvers(three with Extra maneuver) and at the begining of each of your other turns you get a random new maneuver from the pool of your known maneuvers. I never read, nor seen anything about the number of rounds taken or anything in the Crusaders descriptions.


At the end of each turn, one previously withheld maneuver (again, randomly determined) is granted to you, and thus becomes accessible for your next turn and subsequent turns.


If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are with-held. At the end of your next turn, a withheld maneuver is granted to you, and the whole process of divine inspiration begins again.

The number of rounds thing isn't spelled out thats just how many rounds it ends up taking to restart the process.

[DarkEternal]

English is not my native language, so I might have understood it wrong. Let me use an example.

I have Charging Minotaur, Crusader Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, and Stone Bones in my known maneuvers.

At the begining of combat, with Extra maneuver feat, I get, let's say Crusader Str., Charging Minotaur and Vanguard strike in the first round. I use Crusader Strike. It's now expended. Next round I draw one new manuver from the ones I didn't draw from at the start(Leading the attack orf Stone Bones). I draw Leading the Attack, so now only Stone Bones remains untapped.

This round I use Vanguard Strike. It goes to the same place as Crusader Strike, and I draw the last maneuver, Stone Bones, which I use in the same turn that I can. It goes to the discard pile. I have Leading the Attack and Charging Minotaur. Now, I need to use these two maneuvers in the next two rounds(without getting any new maneuvers back until these are expended). When Charging Minotaur and Leading the Attack are expended, all of my maneuvers are refreshed, and I get three random new ones again, and the cycle is repeated.

That is how I understood this. Was that wrong? That's why I don't understand the entire 5 minutes for changing maneuvers and the like, how that exactly works. Sorry if I'm a bit thick, but it's my first time using ToB.

[Gigas Breaker]

It's fine. I don't think you are thick. Crusader is different from eveything else.

You don't have to expend all of your maneuvers. The process restarts when there aren't maneuvers to draw. You get to draw a maneuver at the end of every turn. Nothing prevents this. If there are not any maneuvers left to draw, that is what restarts the process. You shuffle up all of your maneuvers including any maneuvers you haven't used and then draw your maneuvers like at the start of combat.

So, at the start of your first turn you draw three new maneuvers with extra granted maneuver then at the end of your turn you draw a maneuver. Remember you are granted maneuvers at the end of your turn not the beginning except the first three. So after your first turn there is one maneuver left to be granted. At the end of your second turn you are granted your last maneuver. At the end of your third turn you need to be granted a maneuver but there aren't any left. This is when the process restarts. It doesn't matter what you've expended or not. You lose all of them and start over. You shuffle everything up and draw three new maneuvers at the end of round three.

[DarkEternal]

Ok, I think I sort of got it. I thought swordsage and warblade were capable of filling their lists with the same maneuver over and over as long as they qualified, but I guess I was wrong.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Guess I found this thread too late to suggest dropping those odd stats down to even numbers and getting a dex of ~14, combat reflexes, and using Thicket of Blades stance with a reach weapon and Stand Still and/or Improved Trip feat to keep enemies from reaching your allies.

[DarkEternal]

Yeah. Due to party disagreements, we had to roll stats. It was either we all roll, or we all go pint buy, and they outvoted me 3 to 1. So, I rolled. Got the worst stats of the bunch. Still better than with point buy, but because of it all, both my Dex and Wis are 10, so I'll go down the Combat Expertise route.

[DarkEternal]

I'm a little stuck as to how to "build" my crusader next. We are now level 4.

My stats are: STR:19
DEX:10
CON:16
INT:13
WIS:10
CHA:12

I've taken Extra Maneuver, Stone Power and Combat Expertise as my feats so far, and using a Kwan Dao(basically a two handed spear) as my weapon.

So far, I have had a few options, but I've seen a lot of crusaders relying on the Thicket of Blades stance which is great. However, due to my crappy Dex, I don't know if it's worth it what so ever(not to mention that there is no chance in hell I'll ever get Combat Reflexes). As such, I was thinking of taking Improved Trip on Level 6, but it seems like my level 3 maneuvers will be lacking in terms of Devoted Spirit(was thinking of taking White Raven Tactics on level 5, and changing Crusader Strike into Revitalising strike on level 6)

My armor also seems more of a hindrance then anything else. At this level, I still can't really afford anything better than a chain mail, and honestly, with all the armor check penalties wearing it does, I sometimes think I'd be better off with one AC less and just having Mage armor cast on me by our mage. Since I use a two handed weapon, my AC is the best(though just barely, by one), and the only way I can do better is by using Combat Expertise to give myself more staying power, and I rather use it on Stone Power, more often than not.

Also, a last question, Level 4 maneuvers have a Devoted Spirit one called Divine Surge, which makes you do a melee attack, and then the target takes 8d8 damage. I don't know if this was errata'd anywhere, since the "greater version" of it does less damage than Divine Surge and you have to sacrifice Con for better effect, while the normal one has no throw backs that I have seen(even if the full says that this leaves you drained)?

[Gigas Breaker]

Take white raven tactics. Delay your turn to go after a party member and let them act twice in one round. It is really strong. Divine surge has not been errata'd and does what it says.

[DarkEternal]

Heh, with my dexterity and "good" rolls, I'm usually dead last anyway, so delaying an action won't be necessary.

Also, regarding Divine Surge, my DM is stubborn as an ox and banned it saying it is OP when compared to what casting classes can do due to damage and the fact I can use it too often, and I lost the will to try arguing there are far more powerful things at that level someone can do, so yeah, I guess I'll twiddle my thumbs for my Devoted Spirit specialisation and probably go more into White Raven.

[navar100]

Heh, with my dexterity and "good" rolls, I'm usually dead last anyway, so delaying an action won't be necessary.

Also, regarding Divine Surge, my DM is stubborn as an ox and banned it saying it is OP when compared to what casting classes can do due to damage and the fact I can use it too often, and I lost the will to try arguing there are far more powerful things at that level someone can do, so yeah, I guess I'll twiddle my thumbs for my Devoted Spirit specialisation and probably go more into White Raven.

The Unofficial Web Errata changed Divine Surge to 6d8 damage and made Greater Divine Surge start at 8d8.

[DarkEternal]

Well, I learned to keep my trap shut since now my WTR can affect only other people, and not myself, so I'll stop with challenging the DM before my entire skill set is changed or fudged.

[Gigas Breaker]

Well, I learned to keep my trap shut since now my WTR can affect only other people, and not myself, so I'll stop with challenging the DM before my entire skill set is changed or fudged.

That is a sensible ruling and only makes WRT really really good instead of insanely powerful. You should definitely still use it.

[DarkEternal]

I was thinking of taking Improved Trip, as I mentioned earlier. This thing, however(from my reading) only works when you use attacks that are not maneuvers on it, right? In that case, I've seen a feat called Knock-Down from Sword and Fist which needs Improved Trip as a Pre Req, and it says that whenever you deal 10 or more damage to an enemy in melee, you can attempt a trip as a free action. This seems like a good feat to take if I plan on using Maneuvers almost exclusively, no?

[Darrin]

In that case, I've seen a feat called Knock-Down from Sword and Fist which needs Improved Trip as a Pre Req, and it says that whenever you deal 10 or more damage to an enemy in melee, you can attempt a trip as a free action. This seems like a good feat to take if I plan on using Maneuvers almost exclusively, no?

Yes, but be aware there's some controversy over whether you can combine Knock-down with Improved Trip. The Sword & Fist errata added a sentence that said you can't get a free attack from Improved Trip after you use Knock-down. However, when Knock-down was published in the Divine section of the SRD, the errata was not included. Some DMs may insist that the Sword & Fist errata still applies, even though the SRD is 3.5 and published later.

[DarkEternal]

Ahhh, I see. Well, this is from the SRD, while if I remember correctly Sword and Fist is 3.0 or something? So I think I won't have a problem.

[DarkEternal]

I've been thinking of taking the Thicket of Blades, even with my abysmall dexterity when I can. My question is if this follows the same rules as do the other maneuvers in terms on how many times you can hit someone without Combat Reflexes since nothing really is mentioned in the stance description. It just says you hit everyone you threaten whenever they move pretty much anywhere, so I don't know if it's limited with your dex-combat reflexes or is this universal?

[Eldariel]

I've been thinking of taking the Thicket of Blades, even with my abysmall dexterity when I can. My question is if this follows the same rules as do the other maneuvers in terms on how many times you can hit someone without Combat Reflexes since nothing really is mentioned in the stance description. It just says you hit everyone you threaten whenever they move pretty much anywhere, so I don't know if it's limited with your dex-combat reflexes or is this universal?

You can only take attacks of opportunity if you have attacks of opportunities left to take so without Combat Reflexes, it's once per round.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you went for the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat....which basically REQUIRES dipping Warblade for you at this point... it gets a tactic that lets you forgo a provoked AoO in order to get a bonus to attack and damage on that foe next round.

Now, apparently it's debated... I thought since you were opting not to take it you still *had* the AoO and could thus fund this tactic w/ only a single AoO if you never take it. Others....disagree. If your DM agrees with how I see it, then combining Stormguard Warrior w/ Thicket of Blades could still be useful for you. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth it. Hold out for the law or chaos stance (whatever your alignment is) available at 11+, both of those are very good on their own right and worthy of challenging thicket of blades as best stance for even a crusader who has dex for combat reflexes.

[DarkEternal]

I was unaware you can "hold out" in getting stances. I thought that you have to take a stance whenever it is available to you, meaning that when I get a new stance at level 8, I have to take it, and am not able to put it "on hold" until a higher level when a stance I like more appears.

[StreamOfTheSky]

By RAW, you can't hold out. But Crusader's stance progression is so utterly screwed up, your DM might be willing to work something out with you.

I was thinking more along the lines of, "you qualify at 11, and 12 is a feat level to pick up Martial Stance..."

[DarkEternal]

Yeah, that won't work. I get it like it's written, so I don't really have much of a choice.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, I'm sure some here may find it heretical to say, but.... Roots of the Mountain really isn't that terrible if you either don't move around much or do but have swift actions generally available to re-enter it at end of turn.

[DarkEternal]

Considering I got stuck in some lame construct form now, which gives me +1 Dex every four levels, and the fact that I won't need Constitution any time soon, I might as well invest in Dexterity. Do I need Combat Reflexes for this stance to give me additional AOO or is high Dex enough?

[Snowbluff]

Combat Reflexes is never a bad option.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You could have a Dex of 50 and you'd still only have 1 AoO per round without the Combat Reflexes feat.

[DarkEternal]

Bah. Well, that's out. Okay, I'll think of something or other.

[navar100]

By RAW, you can't hold out. But Crusader's stance progression is so utterly screwed up, your DM might be willing to work something out with you.

I was thinking more along the lines of, "you qualify at 11, and 12 is a feat level to pick up Martial Stance..."

I like allowing adepts to change a stance known at level 5 and every 5 levels there after. You can keep stance progressions as is.

[DarkEternal]

Well, no worries anymore. Getting stuck in Ravenloft is apparently very bad for everyone's health. Two sessions in and TPK :(