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Bundin
2012-12-11, 09:29 PM
I've had a long hard look at animal companions for druids and I think I understand the basics. You look at the statblock in the book the animal/critter is listed in, apply the bonuses that are listed in the PHB Animal Companion table, and add feats/skillpoints when applicable if you're higher level already.

My little druid will be a former city dweller who was trained by a solitary old druid. The old druid didn't want his knowledge to be lost on his death so he trained the city boy that didn't run away from "the crazy old man in the woods" and promptly expired when done. Since my fledgling druid is from a city, he'll have a dog as animal companion, I can't imagine wolves and such roaming the streets without the city guards poking them full of holes. I picked the statblock for bigger dogs, Jack Russells annoy me to no end (Dog, Riding). The dog has 2 INT, so it can learn 6 tricks (plus level dependent bonus druid tricks). It also says:


MM p.272
Combat
If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.

And the PHB states at the Handle Animal skill

PHB p.75
Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs (see the Monster Manual) are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.

Am I correct in assuming that I can start at level 1 with a Riding Dog that is already trained for war (the old druid trained boy and dog together), because this training is automatic according to the PHB entry?

Does this mean that the dog can learn 6 additional tricks using the Handle Animal skill (and even more than that because I'm a druid), or do the 6 skills listed under Combat Riding fill the slots?

In combat, how precise can orders be? I'm assuming that an attack command (either verbal or a hand signal) while pointing at a specific enemy would work for any companion with the Attack trick, but can I devise a "flank" trick (attack from behind) or something?

What about me using Wild Shape to shift into a canine myself, can I explain things in more detail ("attack that human back there with the long yellow fur, best run behind and gnaw at his ankles") on the fly because I can now talk with canines?

What happens if the dog dies a few levels in (say at level 7), and I decide to take some other companion. Does the new one start off knowing only the three bonus tricks from the table on PHB p.36, resulting in a dodgy companion for a few weeks until it learns some of the basics like Guard, Defend, Attack other?

If possible, I'll never replace the companion (man's best friend and all that), but the poor critter may run into the wrong orc or something and I don't want to stall the campaign while hunting down information. Best have a replacement template ready...

Phelix-Mu
2012-12-11, 09:49 PM
1.)Am I correct in assuming that I can start at level 1 with a Riding Dog that is already trained for war (the old druid trained boy and dog together), because this training is automatic according to the PHB entry?

2.) Does this mean that the dog can learn 6 additional tricks using the Handle Animal skill (and even more than that because I'm a druid), or do the 6 skills listed under Combat Riding fill the slots?

3.)In combat, how precise can orders be? I'm assuming that an attack command (either verbal or a hand signal) while pointing at a specific enemy would work for any companion with the Attack trick, but can I devise a "flank" trick (attack from behind) or something?

4.)What about me using Wild Shape to shift into a canine myself, can I explain things in more detail ("attack that human back there with the long yellow fur, best run behind and gnaw at his ankles") on the fly because I can now talk with canines?

5.)What happens if the dog dies a few levels in (say at level 7), and I decide to take some other companion. Does the new one start off knowing only the three bonus tricks from the table on PHB p.36, resulting in a dodgy companion for a few weeks until it learns some of the basics like Guard, Defend, Attack other?

If possible, I'll never replace the companion (man's best friend and all that), but the poor critter may run into the wrong orc or something and I don't want to stall the campaign while hunting down information. Best have a replacement template ready...

1.) The animal companion you have has all the characteristics of the standard animal, so this sounds like it already has those tricks.

2.) I'd say tricks indigenous to the breed/type of animal are bonus tricks, since a riding dog would be taught from an early age to bear children and such. By the time it's an adult with the listed stats, that's all second nature. But I don't know if this is ever outlined in detail.

3.) In combat, you can order your animal companion to perform a trick, which allows the companion to do what the trick describes. You can't just add extra parameters to the trick. As a side note, lots of extra tricks are added in various supplements, with the main one being Complete Adventurer, but I'm also thinking there are some in Complete Scoundrel or something like that. Maybe search internet for "3.5 guide to Handle Animal" or "3.5 Handle Animal tricks."

4.) No, you can't do this with wild shape, although I know of no impact that wild shape would have on normal use of the Handle Animal skill (although the image of the riding dog taking commands from a huge fire elemental is humourous). Even with speak with animals spell, you can only get an animal to do stuff appropriate to it's Int score, and animals only understand how to do things that they've been trained to do (barring purely instinctive stuff, which would be DM's area...a hungry animal companion will forage for food, simple example).

5.) A new animal companion needs to be retrained, though I believe you may eventually be able to pay someone else to do this for you if you are strapped for time. The new riding dog will still know the tricks listed in it's MM entry, though. Equipment for your animal companion is highly recommended, as early on you can afford armour/barding for it, and later on items. Healing collar, Magic Item Compendium, is an excellent investment, not too expensive. Eventually you'll want to buy cheaper magic items for it, such as a con item or such.

Ketiara
2012-12-12, 01:59 PM
But cant you give it an int abilitypoint when it reaches lvl 4 with 3 int you should be able to talk to it.

Namfuak
2012-12-12, 02:16 PM
But cant you give it an int abilitypoint when it reaches lvl 4 with 3 int you should be able to talk to it.

Animal companions do not gain the normal benefits of advancing hit dice from the bonus hit dice granted, including adding to their ability scores.

Philistine
2012-12-12, 02:39 PM
Animal companions do not gain the normal benefits of advancing hit dice from the bonus hit dice granted, including adding to their ability scores.

Source please? The description in the SRD paints a different picture.

If we were talking about Familiars, mind you, you'd be spot-on.

Lord Il Palazzo
2012-12-12, 02:42 PM
Source please? The description in the SRD paints a different picture.

If we were talking about Familiars, mind you, you'd be spot-on.I was going to post basically this but Philistine beat me to it.

The SRD says "An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice." While it doesn't specifically mention ability points, it doesn't give any reason to think a companion wouldn't get those too, as normal.

tyckspoon
2012-12-12, 02:47 PM
But cant you give it an int abilitypoint when it reaches lvl 4 with 3 int you should be able to talk to it.

No, because if it gains Int 3 it becomes a Magical Animal, and Magical Animals can't be Animal Companions.

Mephit
2012-12-12, 02:48 PM
But cant you give it an int abilitypoint when it reaches lvl 4 with 3 int you should be able to talk to it.

The animal type states that an animal can not have an Int score of 3 or above. So I'd argue that's not legal.


Animal companions do not gain the normal benefits of advancing hit dice from the bonus hit dice granted, including adding to their ability scores.


An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Ninja'd on both accounts.
@Tyckspoon: Is there a definitive source on that? I know that this happens with e.g Awakened animals, so it's reasonable to assume that's what'd happen, but I've never really seen it written anywhere.

Lord Il Palazzo
2012-12-12, 03:06 PM
No, because if it gains Int 3 it becomes a Magical Animal, and Magical Animals can't be Animal Companions.I've found some support for this on the SRD but nothing that ccomes right out and says it.
In the description of the animal type: "Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)." and for the magical beast type: "Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2." I can't find anything that says that an animal that gains intelligence above 2 automatically becomes a magical beast or that says an animal that gains another type has to stop serving as an animal companion. Any sources on those?

(And if that were true, could a wizard use Fox's Cunning on an enemy druid's companion to make it lose it's animal companion bonuses for 1 minute per level? That seems wrong to me.)

Mephit
2012-12-12, 04:01 PM
The best way to approach it in my eyes is that an animal's Int score is limited just like other creatures' stats have limits: You can't have an ability score below 0, ie any attempt to drain it beyond that just has no effect. Ergo, any attempt to raise an animal's Int above 2 has no effect.

But it's been a pretty common point of debate, and I haven't really heard anyone give a definitive source. By RAW, that's my interpretation.

Bundin
2012-12-12, 08:05 PM
I'm not trying to minmax this druid anyway, so I'm not too fussed about talking or not. I'll just point the doggie at a specific nasty and gesture/yell gettim! and then move him in as straight a line as possible. If my monk buddy wants flankage, he can move around himself :p

As my DM is of the "mind of dog can be filled to capacity"-variety, I can't teach the dog new tricks above the 6 that were included in Combat Riding already. Of course with exception of the bonus druid ones, so that's all fine with me. So far, dog will get
1-2. Attack (other) so it can and will gnaw on outsider nasties, vamps, and the likes
2. Perform, so it can play dead and hopefully fool whatever is trying to kill it, and do tricks to put people at ease or distract 'em where needed
3. Fetch, so it can drag drunk halflings home, or actually do hand over the jail cell keys, instead of mockingly staring at me like it's in Pirates of the Caribbean.

Any other ideas for fun and/or useful tricks? I'm up for anything that's nonstandard but useful in some way. My aim with this druid is to try and get things done differently: as few predictable applications of skills/spells as possible and still get the job done.

Ketiara
2012-12-13, 01:35 AM
Well : guard. It growls if something is caught in its spot/listen check. VERY usefull if you really need the 8hours of sleep.