[ PF ] Overpowered Paladin?

[cascadingStar]

About a year ago, I made my first Pathfinder character. Reading the rules and looking through such and still not understanding anything, I started throwing feats at him to make him better at dual wielding, though he only used a to handed weapon. Well, in one level up, I found a feat called monkey grip, which I added and now allowed him to dual wield two handed weapons. My DM was cool, so I was happy about that.

Now, the problem is that is with my moving out of state, I've found a new group. The DM is going to put me in the middle of their campaign because my friend requested it. I'm quite terrified of this DM and scared to ask about my character so I was wondering, would you let a Paladin dual wield great swords, or is it too much and I should make a new character that's less... over-powered.

[Andreaz]

About a year ago, I made my first Pathfinder character. Reading the rules and looking through such and still not understanding anything, I started throwing feats at him to make him better at dual wielding, though he only used a to handed weapon. Well, in one level up, I found a feat called monkey grip, which I added and now allowed him to dual wield two handed weapons. My DM was cool, so I was happy about that.

Now, the problem is that is with my moving out of state, I've found a new group. The DM is going to put me in the middle of their campaign because my friend requested it. I'm quite terrified of this DM and scared to ask about my character so I was wondering, would you let a Paladin dual wield great swords, or is it too much and I should make a new character that's less... over-powered.

Monkey Grip does not do that. It lets you wield weapons a category larger.
Meaning you can't grab a halberd 1handed...you grab a halberd made for large people rather than medium people.

And no, it's not overpowered. It's pretty much among the weakest power upgrades you could ever get. Going from 1d8 to 2d6 damage increases your average damage by 2,5 points...pitiful.
---------------------------------------
Dual wielding is far from your best power upgrade, too. It's only good if you have a reliable form of bonus damage, like the ever-popular sneak attack. Eating 3 or so feats to gain the chance to spend twice as much gold as before to whiff at damage reduction twice as often...yeah, I'll pass.

[cascadingStar]

Monkey Grip does not do that. It lets you wield weapons a category larger.
Meaning you can't grab a halberd 1handed...you grab a halberd made for large people rather than medium people.

And no, it's not overpowered. It's pretty much among the weakest power upgrades you could ever get. Going from 1d8 to 2d6 damage increases your average damage by 2,5 points...pitiful.

That was the thing. My DM said rather than picking up a weapon that was a size larder than me, I could pick up a two handed as a one and so that's how it lead to me dual wielding the weapons. I was just asking to see if this seemed like a legit thing.

[Corlindale]

Monkey Grip is not a Pathfinder feat, it's from D&D 3.5. For that reason alone I wouldn't assume it would be allowed in a PF game, unless your new GM has said he allows 3.5 content beforehand.

It's also a notoriously bad feat, so your GM certainly shouldn't worry about you being overpowered. The penalties you get to attack - on top of the penalties you are already receiving for dual-wielding - will likely mean the damage boost is not really worth it at all.

[Larkas]

Lady, you don't know the MEANING of overpowered. Monkey Grip is a very weak feat, and doesn't do what you think it does, IIRC. You're looking for Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Which is also a weak feat.

[Andreaz]

That was the thing. My DM said rather than picking up a weapon that was a size larder than me, I could pick up a two handed as a one and so that's how it lead to me dual wielding the weapons. I was just asking to see if this seemed like a legit thing.It's still very little gain. Going a step larger or wielding weapons as if they were of smaller categories is pretty much the same thing.
Those 3 or so feats could instead be spent on more practical things, like power attack and great cleave. The points you'd need to have in dex to even be able to buy the TWF feats would also be released, improving the attributes that are important to both builds.

[Kyuu Himura]

Dual wielding is far from your best power upgrade, too. It's only good if you have a reliable form of bonus damage, like the ever-popular sneak attack. Eating 3 or so feats to gain the chance to spend twice as much gold as before to whiff at damage reduction twice as often...yeah, I'll pass.

It's a Pathfinder Paladin, their Smite Evil adds damage to every attack until the target is dead or defeated (unconscious, run away, end of encounter for whatever other reason, etc), so yes, against 99% of everything the average adventuring group will ever face, he's got a reliable source of damage.


Monkey Grip does not do that. It lets you wield weapons a category larger.
Meaning you can't grab a halberd 1handed...you grab a halberd made for large people rather than medium people.

And no, it's not overpowered. It's pretty much among the weakest power upgrades you could ever get. Going from 1d8 to 2d6 damage increases your average damage by 2,5 points...pitiful.

In the other hand, this is incredibly true. I would tell your new DM about it, but if he knows how the game works, he will have little problem with it, at worst you will have to pick two one-handed weapons and that's it.

[ahenobarbi]

The character is not overpowered, don't worry :smallsmile:


Son

Always check "Gender" (below avatar) of the person you are addressing or you will end up offending people :smalltongue:

[Andreaz]

It's a Pathfinder Paladin, their Smite Evil adds damage to every attack until the target is dead or defeated (unconscious, run away, end of encounter for whatever other reason, etc), so yes, against 99% of everything the average adventuring group will ever face, he's got a reliable source of damage.+level to all damage is certainly potent, as well as ignoring DR, which does indeed make the paladin fairly more potent. It's still less than simpler options like sneak attack. It's far from 3.5, but still nothing to write home about. Not for a limited ability against a select group. Hoping the enemy's mostly evil tends to cost dearly in most games I've played. Generally they're just about half the significant opposition, and only because we go after them...If it's just happenstance, lower grunts and the like, they'll conform nearly perfectly to the statistics (a third of the humans, a bit less elves, some more goblinoids...)
In the other hand, this is incredibly true. I would tell your new DM about it, but if he knows how the game works, he will have little problem with it, at worst you will have to pick two one-handed weapons and that's it.The pain ;_;

[Stormageddon]

Step 1: Have a conversation with your new DM about. Why hide it, you've done nothing wrong. Simply explain that you and your old DM had some house rules (most groups do). Explain the feat in questions, and ask what a good solution would be to the problem. Either exchanging out feats or reroll (push for the former), and if he does not have a problem then YAY! Don't get augmentative if he does though; Monkey Grip does not work the way you describe it, and it's not a Pathfinder feat.

Step 2: ...

Step 3: Profit!

[Larkas]

Always check "Gender" (below avatar) of the person you are addressing or you will end up offending people :smalltongue:

Woooooops! Damn them avatars! :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

It's a Pathfinder Paladin, their Smite Evil adds damage to every attack until the target is dead or defeated (unconscious, run away, end of encounter for whatever other reason, etc), so yes, against 99% of everything the average adventuring group will ever face, he's got a reliable source of damage.


Smite is single-target, low uses per day, plus targeting restrictions. Even if you get a lot of legal targets for Smite, out of everything you face, uses/day constraints mean you're only going to get that damage against maaaybe 5%-10%.

+level to damage looks great until you realize the other restrictions. And when you don't feel like blowing a Smite, you're basically a Fighter with saves, heals, and lower tohit/damage.

[Stormageddon]

Smite is single-target, low uses per day, plus targeting restrictions. Even if you get a lot of legal targets for Smite, out of everything you face, uses/day constraints mean you're only going to get that damage against maaaybe 5%-10%.

+level to damage looks great until you realize the other restrictions. And when you don't feel like blowing a Smite, you're basically a Fighter with saves, heals, and lower tohit/damage.


Don't forget the free magic weapon or mount, and spells.

[cascadingStar]

You know, several of you are right. I just really looked it all up and yes, I always knew it wasn't a Pathfinder feat, we had been using it wrong. So I think I'm just going to edit him into being a better damage output. So thanks everyone who wasn't a sassy ****.

[Person_Man]

Plenty of Feats add an extra attack. The bonus damage from an extra attack is much greater then then an extra die of damage. So any Feat which adds a bonus attack will generally be superior to a Feat which adds a die of damage.

[Snowbluff]

Smite is single-target, low uses per day, plus targeting restrictions. Even if you get a lot of legal targets for Smite, out of everything you face, uses/day constraints mean you're only going to get that damage against maaaybe 5%-10%.

+level to damage looks great until you realize the other restrictions. And when you don't feel like blowing a Smite, you're basically a Fighter with saves, heals, and lower tohit/damage.


Don't forget the free magic weapon or mount, and spells.

Well, the Oath of Vengeance gives you more Smithing from your Lay on Hands attempts. A Tiefling Paladin (Favored bonus is +1 to LoH to self) with a Cha based Heritage, with a Bite attack (Maw or Claw) or the +2 Cha bonus make for crazy powerful and survivable combatants, BEFORE feats.

Fey Heritage buffs your self healing really well. Mounted Combat feats make your charging dealing extra damage (Lance + Spirited Charge, and there's a feat that might let you full attack on a mounted charge). Power Attack's Penalty is offset by your Smite bonus.

[Hylas]

Well, the Oath of Vengeance gives you more Smithing from your Lay on Hands attempts. A Tiefling Paladin (Favored bonus is +1 to LoH to self) with a Cha based Heritage, with a Bite attack (Maw or Claw) or the +2 Cha bonus make for crazy powerful and survivable combatants, BEFORE feats.

Fey Heritage buffs your self healing really well.

WARNING: Tiefling Paladins with Fey Heritage and Greater Mercy feats have been known to cause delusions of invulnerability and grandeur. Do not use Fey while nursing or pregnant. Do not operate Use Magic Device while under the effects of Fey. Using Fey has been known to cause depression in other martial party members under the level of 13.

Ask your DM if Fey Heritage is right for you.

[Snowbluff]

WARNING: Tiefling Paladins with Fey Heritage and Greater Mercy feats have been known to cause delusions of invulnerability and grandeur. Do not use Fey while nursing or pregnant. Do not operate Use Magic Device while under the effects of Fey. Using Fey has been known to cause depression in other martial party members under the level of 13.

Ask your DM if Fey Heritage is right for you.

lol

It does lead to some crazy stuff. Every 2 paladin levels you take is 1d6+4 in healing for an otherwise useless action.

[Prime32]

Greater Mercy doesn't add a lot, and I can't find Fey Heritage.

[Snowbluff]

I can't find Fey Heritage.

Inner Seas Campaign Setting. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2)

[Hylas]

Greater mercy isn't much on it's own but with fey heritage it's an extra 1d6+2 HP per use, and with 6 uses a day that adds up to minimum 18 HP a day, average 33 HP, at level 3. Better than toughness. In my experience mercies aren't used that often. With higher CHA it gets even better.

Also it's the prerequisite for the feat which lets you resurrect people. Sure it's not "mad damage" but it can certainly be useful outside of a dungeon crawl.

[Hyde]

Having played a great amount of PF Paladins, your best option is to go dual-wield (like you have). You main hand a kukri or scimitar (or any 18-20 range weapon, who cares) and you offhand a light pick.

Why is this, you ask?

Butterfly Sting. Take Imp crit for your MH, swing, crit, and transfer that crit to your x4 OH, which includes smite.

This required a certain interpretation for what an "ally" is-personally, An enemy of my enemy is an ally, so I would be an ally.

Regardless, you'll want to pick up stuff like maybe power attack and double slice, and then make the case for double slice also making power attack go full throttle on your OH, because the people who write feats write them backwards (it should read "If you would get 1.5X or .5x times your normal strength, golly-gee-willikers those bonuses and penalties apply to power attack as well, and maybe here are some examples.").

Anyway, that's just one thing. The big things to remember are


Smite damage lasts until it dies-more attacks, more smite damage (If your DM is brain dead, look at the monsters as PCs rules. pick something with a bevy of natural attacks and/or pounce and you're a god)

Smite damage is multiplied on a crit- more crits, more smite damage (You can go big or go wide, the above example is an attempt to do both).


Or something like that.

[navar100]

It's a Pathfinder Paladin, their Smite Evil adds damage to every attack until the target is dead or defeated (unconscious, run away, end of encounter for whatever other reason, etc), so yes, against 99% of everything the average adventuring group will ever face, he's got a reliable source of damage.



No. Smite Evil lasts until target is dead or paladin refreshes his abilities. If the target runs away but the paladin finds him later that day, Smite Evil is still active.

[sdream]

This required a certain interpretation for what an "ally" is-personally, An enemy of my enemy is an ally, so I would be an ally.


I've read repeatedly from very trustworthy sources that you count as your own ally.

[Hyde]

I've read repeatedly from very trustworthy sources that you count as your own ally.

I believe it, I just don't recall anything official.

[Edit:] Oh wait. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Ally)

[Prime32]

Inner Seas Campaign Setting. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2)Did you mean to link something else? :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Did you mean to link something else? :smalltongue:

I was confused too. The link has nothing to do with Fey.

[Snowbluff]

Did you mean to link something else? :smalltongue:

Yeah. That was supposed to be the pfsrd entry on fry foundling. I'll fix it next time I am not post from an iPod.

[Larkas]

There: Fey Foundling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling). :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

Greater mercy isn't much on it's own but with fey heritage it's an extra 1d6+2 HP per use, and with 6 uses a day that adds up to minimum 18 HP a day, average 33 HP, at level 3. Better than toughness. In my experience mercies aren't used that often. With higher CHA it gets even better.

Also it's the prerequisite for the feat which lets you resurrect people. Sure it's not "mad damage" but it can certainly be useful outside of a dungeon crawl.

With Tiefling

1d6 (base, level 3) +1d6 (greater mercy) +4 (Fey) +3 (Tiefling) = 2d6 +7 =average 14 per heal.

So that's a little less than a Barbarian's damage output at that level. But I wonder how well it scales; can our Pally's heals keep being worth it into mid/high levels?

10th level: 5d6 (base) + 1d6 (Greater Mercy) + 12 (Fey) + 10 (Tiefling) = 6d6 + 22 = 43 per round. Looks like it's still worth it, healing roughly half your hp as a Swift Action.

20th level: 10d6 (base) + 1d6 (greater mercy) + 22 (Fey) + 20 (Tiefling) = 11d6 + 42 = 80.5/round. Should keep you alive a few more rounds than expected, assuming damage is your only worry.

[Snowbluff]

There: Fey Foundling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling). :smallwink:

Thank you!

@slipperychicken Compare to the next most powerful way to heal, Heal. 150 hp but takes a standard action. Also, VGA to saves and AC when smiting should handle everything else.

[Karoht]

WARNING: Tiefling Paladins with Fey Heritage and Greater Mercy feats have been known to cause delusions of invulnerability and grandeur. Do not use Fey while nursing or pregnant. Do not operate Use Magic Device while under the effects of Fey. Using Fey has been known to cause depression in other martial party members under the level of 13.

Ask your DM if Fey Heritage is right for you.
Do not look into the operational end of the Tiefling Paladin with Fey Heritage and Greater Mercy feat.

Also, there is a feat where if you use your Lay on Hands/Mercy on someone other than you, you heal as well. Handy feat to have.

Channel Smite is handy too.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, there is a feat where if you use your Lay on Hands/Mercy on someone other than you, you heal as well. Handy feat to have.


If you're talking about Reward of Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/reward-of-life), it just heals you for your Charisma bonus. That's... pretty underwhelming.

[ahenobarbi]

If you're talking about Reward of Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/reward-of-life), it just heals you for your Charisma bonus. That's... pretty underwhelming.

You get (1/2 Pally level + Cha)*Cha extra healed HP per day. I don't know what Cha typical PF pally has but it doesn't look bad.

[Karoht]

You get (1/2 Pally level + Cha)*Cha extra healed HP per day. I don't know what Cha typical PF pally has but it doesn't look bad.
Wherps, I thought that was multiplied by dice rolled as well.

[Slipperychicken]

You get (1/2 Pally level + Cha)*Cha extra healed HP per day. I don't know what Cha typical PF pally has but it doesn't look bad.

But it's not even extra, though. It only works when you LoH someone else, and that person doesn't benefit from the Tiefling favored bonus or the Fey Foundling.

I mean, getting 2-4 damage back can be nice at level 1, when you don't have many cheap sources of healing (or a Cleric). But it doesn't scale at all, it's such a small amount you barely notice it by level 4.

And you also have way better feats to grab, like Power Attack or Fey Foundling.

[Hyde]

But it's not even extra, though. It only works when you LoH someone else, and that person doesn't benefit from the Tiefling favored bonus or the Fey Foundling.

I mean, getting 2-4 damage back can be nice at level 1, when you don't have many cheap sources of healing (or a Cleric). But it doesn't scale at all, it's such a small amount you barely notice it by level 4.

And you also have way better feats to grab, like Power Attack or Fey Foundling.

It wouldn't be too bad for between combat healing, and would be pretty okay for a healadin... but it's not really in the vein of "OP Paladin" we're discussing.