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ngilop
2012-12-12, 08:36 PM
Templar


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
Divine Might
1






2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3

1






3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
Shield Other
2
1





4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
Die Hard
2
2





5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
Improved Divine Might, Aura of Righteousness
3
2
1




6th
+6
+5
+2
+5
Resolve
3
3
2




7th
+7
+5
+2
+5
Bulwark
4
3
2
1



8th
+8
+6
+2
+6
Divine Word
4
4
3
2
1


9th
+9
+6
+3
+6

5
4
3
2
2


10th
+10
+7
+3
+7
Greater Divine Might
5
5
4
3
3


Hit Die: D8

Requirements
To qualify to become a Templar a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge: Religion 5 ranks
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Alignment: Any good

Class Skills:
Class Skills: Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Templar is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons. He is also proficient with light armor, medium and heavy armor, as well as shields (except tower shields).

Divine Might {Su}: A Templar can go into a state of divinely granted prowess, as a standard action A Templar finds himself gaining +2 to Strength and Constitution as well as a +1 bonus to AC and saves. This ability lasts 3 rounds plus a number of rounds equal to the Templar's (newly acquired) Con modifier. a Templar must wait at least 5 rounds before he can enact Divine Might again, and only once per combat encounter.

Shield Other {Sp}: At 3rd level a Templar can use Sheild Other as a spell like ability once per day Plus a number of times equal to his Wisdom Modifier. He may use this ability an additional time per day for every 3rd Templar level thereafter.

Die Hard {Ex}: At 4th level the Templar can fight as normal while dying (-1 to -9 HP) If the Templar also has the Die hard feat, this ability allows him to fight as normal up to -20 HP before he succumbs to death.

Resolve {Ex}: A Templar gains a competence bonus equal to his Templar level against spells, effects or abilities of the Illusion or Enchantment schools, as well as any spells, effects, or abilities that are mind-affecting.

Bulwark {Ex}: When he reaches 7th level, an opponent that begins its turn in the Templar's threatened area treats all squares that he threatens as difficult terrain. His strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force his opponents to move with care. Creatures must pay double movement cost to move through squares of difficult terrain, and cannot run, charge, or make 5-foot steps through difficult terrain.

Improved Divine Might {Su}: When under the effects of Divine Might a Templar gains 3 temporary bonus HP per Templar level. Additionally either his Strength and Constitution during Divine Might increases by an additional +2, for a +4 total bonus to those particular stats.

Aura of Righteousness {Su}: At 5th level a Templar emanates a protective aura. This aura functions like Holy Aura but affects all allies within 10 feet. A Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic suppresses this ability for 3 rounds, while a disjunction suppresses it for 1 round per caster level. Aura of Righteousness can as a swift action be channeled into pure holy energy, healing allies for 1d6 per every even Templar level and dealing a like amount of damage to adversaries, those damage must succeed on a fort save of DC of 18+ The Templar's Wisdom Mod or be blinded for 1d4+1 rounds. Using this is strenuous to the Templar and he may only use this function of the ability once a day per Con modifier. An Aura of Righteousness that has been used to channel is suppressed for 5 rounds.

Divine Word {Sp}: At 8th level a Templar can use the spell Holy Word once per day as a spell like ability. In addition enemies within the radius of the Holy Word effect also suffer 1d4 damage per every Templar level. A successful Will save of 17+Wisdom Modifier halves this damage. The caster level for this ability is equal to the Templar's class levels.

Greater Divine Might {Su}: at 18th level when a Templar is under the effects of Divine Might he gains the Celestial template as well as Fast Healing 3

Spells
A Templar casts divine spells which are drawn from the Templar spell list (see below). Like a cleric, a Templar must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Templar must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Templar’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Templar’s Wisdom modifier.

Templars, unlike wizards, do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them as divine inspiration or through their own strength of faith. Each Templar must choose a time each day at which he must spend an hour in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a Templar can prepare spells.

Like other spellcasters, an Templar can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the above Table: The Templar. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Each Templar has a particular holy symbol (as a divine focus) depending on the Templar’s magical tradition

Spell List
1st Bless, Command, Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Poison, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Divine Sacrifice, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Magic Weapon, Protection From Evil, Remove Fear, Resistance, Shield of Faith
2nd Aid, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Daylight, Delay Poison, Eagle's Splendor, Flame of Faith, Hold Person, Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle Against Evil, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Spiritual Weapon, Status, Zone of Truth
3rd] Break Enchantment, Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward Dimensional Anchor, Discern Lies, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement Magic Weapon, Greater, Mark of Justice, Righteous Fury, Spell Immunity, Tongues
4th Cure Critical Wounds, Dispel Evil, Hallow, Heroes' Feast, Holy Sword, Restoration, Righteous Might, Spell Resistance
5th Banishment, Commune, Indomitability, Refusal, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Superior Resistance, True Seeing, Zone of Respite, Zone of Revelation

Grelna the Blue
2012-12-12, 09:45 PM
This isn't a full review, just a few comments.

First, the table shows 5th lvl spells, but the aren't on the spell list. Second, the class has no capstone. Or, actually, I guess it does, but it is at 18th level, because no one would bother to take levels 19 and 20 as written. Finally, I can't be sure of the balance, as it doesn't list armor and weapon proficiencies.

ngilop
2012-12-12, 11:08 PM
thanks for noticing about my lack of proficiencies and 5th level spells


Originally this class was just the fighter+adept -familiar. with a jaggled up spell list

I wanted to give it something a bit different so i went with Divine Might and a few paladin-esque moves.

I never understood why people alwasy think that a level 20 ability is needed but, eh whatever I made one.

im thinking of buffing up max spells per day to 5 on probably 1st and 2nd level.. maybe even 3rd too.


that good?

Just to Browse
2012-12-12, 11:26 PM
What tier were you balancing this for? Right now it seems to play quite nicely with the fighter for a while, then starts going up in tier as you hit third level spells, and again when you reach 5th level spells. It's weird.

I'd either tone your spell list down (by removing/adjusting a few spells or replacing some, such as banishment) or bringing the rest of the class up a notch (such as adding a faster progression, increasing the casts per day, and giving more class features). Right now this seems like it would be a good anti-caster or anti-ranged harrier because he gets to stop 5' steps at level 7, but that's a whole lot of dip in a class that doesn't give more than 2 mild buff spells per encounter.

ngilop
2012-12-12, 11:40 PM
Im not aiming for any set 'tier' My players and myself really enver encoutnered the 'tier' style of play untill we have let powergamers inot our session(s).

Really if everybody at teh table just plays to have fun work together, support each other and not be jerks then the 'tiers' cease to exist.

I know that this class is more powerful than the fighter..

the fighter was the worse desgined class in all of 3rd ed, its the sole class in all of the game (well npc classes aside) that has absolutely ZERO class abilities.

I was aiming for something along the power/versitility of the bard, less in the spell department and more in the in your face smash head department.

Just to Browse
2012-12-13, 01:07 AM
Hey, the fighter is an awesome 2-level class!

Well if you're looking for something interesting but not annoyingly powergamey, I'd give him a bunch of cool cantrips or holy-ish class features--right now it just feels like a boring beatstick.

To bring it to a better balance level, I'd pump up the lower levels so your first level class feature isn't "you have +1 BAB and +1 to hit once per day", and you 3rd level class feature isn't "You have +1 BAB and +1 Reflex, go cry". One thing you can do is make the more thematic spells persistent SLAs, and maybe make spellcasting spontaneous from the list (so that spells like banishment don't feel useless when you prepare them).

Divine Word and Greater Divine Might are pretty OK, but 1/day Spell-Like Abilities are gross--I'd recommend fatiguing/exhausting him after a casting and allowing maybe ChaMod or WisMod castings per day or 1/encounter.

ngilop
2012-12-13, 05:17 PM
bumped up spells per day as well as fixed some spelling errors.

this class was primarily used by Saurials (lizard men) with Humans, Dwarves, and half dwarves also being able to take the class as well.

Yes i use class/race combonations in my game. Make more sense to me

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-13, 05:31 PM
How exactly do you define "combat encounter"? What if you're trying to jump from a tower to a nearby roof top as part of a stealth mission or while pursuing someone and you fail. Can you not activate Divine Might to help you survive the inevitable impact?

ngilop
2012-12-13, 05:44 PM
Well most people at my table recognize when they are in combat or not.

bascially are you rolling an attack roll or a saving throw? or is somebody rolling an attack roll or saving throw against you? also Intimigte rolls count as well.

And there is a feat that exists that allows one to get all Divine Might-ed up out of combat that renders one fatgiued for X rounds


but just falling out of a window and being stealth, well divine might is the opposite of stealth


think of DIvine might as He-man and your yelling I HAVE THE POWER!!!!!

thats basically how it goes down. or maybe your are lion-o and saying THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER CATS... HOOOOO!!!!!!

same difference

hence what it is a standard action and not a swift/free action

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-13, 06:04 PM
Well most people at my table recognize when they are in combat or not.

Well, to be fair, this isn't your table, so it's prudent to be specific about things in a very broad manner.



And there is a feat that exists that allows one to get all Divine Might-ed up out of combat that renders one fatgiued for X rounds

And this feat is where? And why does it make you fatigued if you aren't activating Divine Might under extraneous conditions?



but just falling out of a window and being stealth, well divine might is the opposite of stealth


think of DIvine might as He-man and your yelling I HAVE THE POWER!!!!!

thats basically how it goes down. or maybe your are lion-o and saying THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER CATS... HOOOOO!!!!!!

same difference

hence what it is a standard action and not a swift/free action

Well, you never specified that Divine Might is a very visible and "loud" occurrence.


I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here though, since I'm a fan of the Pathfinder "rounds per day" model over the "X/day" model.

ngilop
2012-12-13, 09:48 PM
well except for Divine Word, no other ability has a per day use.

Divine might just has a 'cooldown' period of 5 rounds

and Spamming Holy Word once an encounter to be is a bit absurd.


A Templar is supposed to be a front Line fighter that has some divine spell support and again around the same level as a bard in terms of Power/Versatility less spells more fight though.

Zman
2012-12-13, 09:59 PM
Ok, I think you have too many dead levels. Your class is fairly weak but receives several boosts in power as I moves along. I think there has to be something more that keeps the players interested.

Currently, you have a stretch of 8 dead level and it's Spellcasting isn't enough to warrant waiting that long. I think it needs some minor to moderat ability that scales through these levels. Maybe some additional modular improvements to Divine Might? Also, Divine Might is worded funny, the 5round minimum wait is odd.

Maybe a Lay on Hands style ability?

ngilop
2012-12-13, 10:27 PM
egads I do see a dead level!

time to fix it!

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-14, 12:56 AM
I feel so stupid for missing it at first, but let me address it now:

Why would any one take the first level in this class? Level 1 in this class falls somewhere above the Commoner, Warrior and Aristocrat, but below the Adept (and maybe the Expert), which means it's less attractive than a level in even the Monk, Complete Warrior Samurai and possibly the Truenamer.

ngilop
2012-12-14, 03:20 AM
I guess the same reason why people would take 3, 7,12, or 20 levels in this class. becuase they want to.


im not seeing what is so bad about the first level that you seem to think is completely worhtless

they get a +1 BaB 2 good saves and a first level divine spell

with a spell list that I think is actually pretty decent.

Im just not seeing how that makes taking a level in Templar useless?

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-14, 05:35 PM
im not seeing what is so bad about the first level that you seem to think is completely worhtless

Then you need to take a look at the first level in any other PC base class.


they get a +1 BaB 2 good saves and a first level divine spell

with a spell list that I think is actually pretty decent.

So you're better than a Warrior for one encounter. That's attractive how?



Im just not seeing how that makes taking a level in Templar useless?

Because, and I reiterate this, a level in essentially every other PC class and some NPC classes is superior to a single level in this class.

Grelna the Blue
2012-12-14, 06:23 PM
I've looked at this a little more, now that you have made some changes and added the armor and weapons known, and I guess I just have one, maybe two questions.

1. Does your game have standard Clerics in it?

If the answer to the question above is yes, then

2. Is there a non-RP reason to play a Templar as written over a standard Cleric?

A Templar's saves, hit dice, and armor known are the same as a Cleric. The Templar has two advantages: a Templar knows all Martial Weapons rather than just the Clerics' deity's favored weapon (honestly no big deal though, as most players focus on only one weapon anyway) and a Templar gets fast BAB, rather than medium. However, these small advantages are more than outweighed by the fact that a Cleric gets more spells per day, more spells overall, and can learn up to 9th level spells. The Templar's spells are protective, for the most part. A Cleric gets those spells and more besides.

As for the class abilities, one of the Templar's high level powers, Divine Word--gained at 17th level--is the ability to use Holy Word once a day at the Templar's caster level. A cleric gets the ability to cast Holy Work at 13th level, and by 17th level could have 3+ castings prepared, if he so chose. The other Templar class abilities are a bit of a mixed bag. Bulwark is interesting and the Greater Divine Might and Divine Revelation abilities are certainly useful if someone were to get that far, but just about everything else is either something a cleric could get with a spell or is something any character could get with a feat (Diehard) or is not particularly exciting. For instance, Aura of Righteousness gives the effect of a Magic Circle vs. Evil (an effect a 5th level Templar or Cleric could already produce for a longer duration by casting a spell) with the option of giving it up for a very low powered blast/heal. At 20th level, the Templar would be dealing a very unimpressive 5d6 damage to enemies and healing 5d6 to allies--WITHIN 10 FEET. That is not an ability that is going to speak to players.

I think a case could be made that Fighters are a stronger class than Templars as written, too. However, Templars are at least capable of doing some things that Fighters simply cannot.

Now, if your answer to the first question above is "no, there are no Clerics in my game," then this class is fine (or can be after a few tweaks), because the game is obviously geared to a lower power level. I have no expertise in designing classes for such a game, but I know many others here do. But if it so happens that this is the case, you should say so up front before giving the class details so critiquers know what they are looking at.

ngilop
2012-12-14, 06:30 PM
Level in Barb: +1 BAB; d12HP; 4 SP; good Fort; fast movment;rage;illiterate
Level in Bard: +0 BAB; d6HP; 6 SP; good Ref&Will; Bardic music; Bardic knolwedge; 0-level spells 2
Level in Cleric: +0 BAB; d8HP, 2 SP, good Fort&will; Domains; tunr/rebuke undead; 0-level spells 3; 1-level spells 3
level in Druid: +0 BAB; d8HP; 4 SP; Good Fort&Will; animal companion; wild empathy; nature sense; 0-level spells 3; 1-level spells 2
level in Fighter: +1 BAB; d10 HP; 2 SP; Good Fort; Bonus feat
Level in Monk: +0 BAB; d8 HP, 4 SP; All good saves; Bonus feat, Flurry of blows, AC bonus, Unarmed strike
Level in Paladin: +1 BAB; d10 HP, 2 SP; Good Fort; Aura of Good; Detct Evil; Smite evil
Level in Ranger: +1 BAB; d8 HP; 6 SP; Good Fort&Ref; Favored Enemy; Track: Wild Empathy
Level in Rogue: +0 BAB; d6 HP; 8 SP; Good Ref; Sneak Attack; Trapfinding
Level in Sorcerer: +0 BAB; d4 HP; 2 SP; Good Will; Summon Familiar; 0-level spells 5; 1-level spells 4
Level in Wizard: +0 BAB; d4 HP, 2 SP; Good Will; Summon Familiar; Scribe Scroll; 0-level spells 3; 1-level spells 2

now for NPC classes

Level in Adept: +0 BAB; d4 HP, 2 SP; Good Will; 0-level spells 3; 1-level spells 2
Level in Aristrocrat: +0 BAB; d8 HP; 4 SP; Good Will
Level in Commoner: +0 BAB; d4 HP, 2 SP; no good saves
Level in Expert: +0 BAB; d6 HP; 6 SP; Good Will
Level in Warrior: +1 BAB; d8 HP; 2 SP; Good Fort

Level in Templar: +1 BAB d8; 2 SP; Good Fort&Will; 1-level spells 2



Ok so looking at what a Templar gains at first level compared to the other clasess at 1st level we can gather this.

We have to exclude the big 4 (Druid, Sorc, Wizard and Cleric) because everybody knows that unlimited power those classes wield.

The Templar is better than the fighter Paladin, Ranger, Monk , Rogue, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert and Warrior.

but not as good as the barbarian or the bard, Rage and bardic music put those 2 classes out in the lead.

But it is about on the same power level as the adept, having access to 0-level spells id say puts the adept on the same level and makes up for better attacks, and more surviveability.

unless i am completely missing something. I am just not seeing how taking a level in Templar means your character is worthless..

instead of justs aying how every class in the game is better. could you maybe actually just say WHAT is so wrong about the Templar?

Razanir
2012-12-14, 06:31 PM
Resolve {Ex}: A Templar gains a competance bonus equal to every 3rd Templar level against spells, effects or abilities of the Illusion or Enchantment schools, as well as any spells, effects, or abilities that are mind-affecting.

Bulwark {Ex}: When he reaches 7th level, an opponent that begins its turn in the the Templar's threatened area treats all squares that he threatens as difficult terrain. His strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force his opponents to move with care. Creatures must pay double movement cost to move through squares of difficult terrain, and cannot run, charge, or make 5-foot steps through difficult terrain.

Bulwark is listed in the table as 7th level, not 3rd. Also, I'd edit the syntax for Resolve. "As well as any mind-affecting spells, effects or abilities."


Then you need to take a look at the first level in any other PC base class.

I just checked every class (even psionic) in the SRD. The grand list of classes whose one-level dips are less attractive than this: Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat, Warrior.

The problem is you get so few spells. I can think of two classes that are fine despite having spells per day comparable to this: Paladin and Ranger. Mainly because their selling points aren't magic. If you really want this class to be similar to a bard in versatility, either add more features or take the bard's spell progression. Also, have more features at level 1 than just a single spell. That would be fine if I got a cool ability with it, but not if that single spell is all that's preventing my first level from being a dead level

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-14, 07:11 PM
Ok so looking at what a Templar gains at first level compared to the other clasess at 1st level we can gather this.

We have to exclude the big 4 (Druid, Sorc, Wizard and Cleric) because everybody knows that unlimited power those classes wield.

And why are we ignoring them? They are viable options and not a single one of them is broken at level 1.


The Templar is better than the fighter Paladin, Ranger, Monk , Rogue, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert and Warrior.[/b]

No, No, No, No, I said as much, I said as much, that's arguable, and I said as much (though only for one single encounter, then the Warrior is better).


but not as good as the barbarian or the bard, Rage and bardic music put those 2 classes out in the lead.

Actual class features other than 1 spell puts them in the lead, yes. But so does every other PC base class.


But it is about on the same power level as the adept, having access to 0-level spells id say puts the adept on the same level and makes up for better attacks, and more surviveability.

An Adapt gets 4 spells per day (drawn from a broader list) at level 1 before we factor in high ability scores. That's a good deal more interesting than Templar 1.


unless i am completely missing something. I am just not seeing how taking a level in Templar means your character is worthless..

instead of justs aying how every class in the game is better. could you maybe actually just say WHAT is so wrong about the Templar?

I've pointed out what's wrong with level 1.

Edit:

+1 BaB, Two good saves, a d8 HD, 2+Int skill (even x4) and a single spell once per day, does not a PC base class level make. This is the workings of an NPC class (of questionable strength) and I can see no reason that someone would take the first level in this class, ever.

Sherishade
2012-12-14, 07:33 PM
I'm honestly confused how much argueing there is over the class, I love the class and the idea around it. Heck I'd take it over the paladin simply because of the easier alingment restrictions. I'm kinda getting the feeling Troll Brau your thinking about this class in a power gamer sense, I always play for RP purposes and while that has frustrated some of my friends to no end its the way I like to play.

Yes this class isn't the cleric and if you want to rock the world then be one of the tier 1 with earth shattering game ending powers. Me I'd like to play the charater thats different and unique rather then a wizard/druid/sorc/cleric every time I play.

It might have gotten lost in my little tiraid but I love the class and would play it stack and heck outta Con.

Amechra
2012-12-14, 08:02 PM
Troll Brau is arguing more along the lines of "you can fluff pretty much anything as anything, so why take levels in this class instead of, say, Cleric, and just say that you're a Templar?"

Really, it's that it is really, really boring mechanically. And you can't say "well, the fluff is awesome, so that's all better", since, again, I could totally play a Commoner 20 as a mighty, godly Wizard who just refuses to cast spells at any time. That doesn't make my character any better at what he's trying to do, which is survive in the hellhole that is the world.

ngilop
2012-12-14, 08:15 PM
that is basically what this class is suppsoe dotbe sherishade A paladin alternative

not a Cleric alt..

and why everybody keeps comparing this to the cleric is beyond me.

I stated TWICE that the goal for this class was to be at the Bard's level or as some call it 'tier'


There seems to be a HUGE trend on the GITP forums to say how bad one's homebrew is proceed to deride it, but never say what you think could be done to improve it.

I guess i should have stated that myself and my player are FAR from powergamers.

I understand there are people out there that unless you are the most powerful and best thing ever your pointless, but not everybody has that playstyle

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-14, 08:33 PM
that is basically what this class is suppsoe dotbe sherishade A paladin alternative

To be fair, the Paladin isn't that bad once you take the Code of Conduct out of the picture. It's fixes are far simpler than say, the Fighter's or Monk's.



and why everybody keeps comparing this to the cleric is beyond me.

Because the Cleric is a holy warrior who is essentially this class with a less good BaB progression and less weapon choices?


I stated TWICE that the goal for this class was to be at the Bard's level or as some call it 'tier'

Well, that is a viable goal post for your brew, you just haven't achieved it. I don't see this class being Tier 3 and you would need to argue it being Tier 4. It may be a fair assessment that a Fighter could equal or outdo this class, but I'm not going to say that until I inspect the two more closely. But I can definitely say this class is most likely not Tier 3 from what I see.



There seems to be a HUGE trend on the GITP forums to say how bad one's homebrew is proceed to deride it, but never say what you think could be done to improve it.

First off, no one here has done anything but give polite, constructive criticism.

Second off, this is your homebrew and you didn't ask for us to suggest specific improvements (unless I missed this, which I apologize for if I did). Dead levels were pointed out and I've said at length that the first level of this class isn't worth taking and pointing to you why that is.


I guess i should have stated that myself and my player are FAR from powergamers.

Why do I feel like you're framing that term as being an insult. :smallconfused:


I understand there are people out there that unless you are the most powerful and best thing ever your pointless, but not everybody has that playstyle

Yeah, I really think you are using it as an insult.

It's not about being "Lulz I most powerful evar!1!1!111!!!", it's about the fact that your class is mechanically boring and is not an attractive choice for its proposed archetypal niche and versatility level when compared to it's peers.

Edit:

Also, once again, your table isn't everyone's. You never said you were only making this for you and your own players' use, so that means your homebrew should be something that appeals to many different kinds of playstyles and groups.


Edit Edit:


I'm kinda getting the feeling Troll Brau your thinking about this class in a power gamer sense, I always play for RP purposes and while that has frustrated some of my friends to no end its the way I like to play.

Before you try to presume how I think further (which you've presumed incorrectly the first time), let me ask you a question:

Have you ever heard of or read the Stormwind Fallacy?

ngilop
2012-12-14, 09:05 PM
Originally i was thinking about giving domains, then I relaized eh that is just a low powered cleric.

THe differnece between a Paladin and Templar in my campaign world is as follows

Paladins are the defenders of the Faith

while Templars are the defenders of the Church.

what I mean by that is the Paladin defends the ideals of a particualr religion and going forth to stamp out things anathema to said religion and other such.

whilst Templar defends ACTUAL tangible things the said church itself, missionaries, faithful on a pilgrimage etc.

I buffed up Aura of righteousness to be equalt o holy aura with teh burst being more liek Sunburts with soem heals, yo.

I added in a semi ToB stance in Defender's stance probably going to add in a shiled other sort of ability I think.

Grelna the Blue
2012-12-14, 09:22 PM
Well, if you are taking suggestions, would you consider adding proficiency in heavy armor? It's not a nifty class power or anything, but if the theme of the class is defense, heavy armor would help to play into that.

ngilop
2012-12-14, 09:33 PM
I thought I already had Heavy armor. LOL one of those silly over-oversights...

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-14, 09:46 PM
Alright, let me try the tact you've now asked for. Here are my more specific suggestions on how to improve this class:

1. Move Divine Might down to level 1. You portray it as being the main ability of the class, so it should be gotten at the starting gate.
2. Roll Defender's Stance and Bulwark into one class feature and give it more benefits granted. Probably should roll Diehard in as well. The Diehard feat is god awful honestly, so I'd have it do something better than the feat and have it get more powerful if the character also has Diehard.
3. Why not make Resolve just apply to all spells, spell-like abilities and Supernatural effects?
4. Flat out remove Divine Word. Just give them Holy Word as a 5th level spell.
5. Your class has more dead levels than it doesn't. Dead levels are a bad thing and just getting a new feat or spell is a bad justification for taking the next level in a class.


Now a question:

Why did you choose to make the capstone the way you did?

ngilop
2012-12-14, 09:49 PM
cuz soembody complained about not having a capstone so i made one.

Tanuki Tales
2012-12-14, 09:51 PM
cuz soembody complained about not having a capstone so i made one.

I meant more, "What makes it live up to it's name in your eyes?" How is what it grants a "Divine Revelation" to you?

ngilop
2012-12-14, 10:15 PM
Ok swapped Defendor's stance and Divine Might

ANd the naem Divien revelation just kinda jumped out at me..

I guess is revealing the limit break on what the Templar can sustain and allowing him to impart his own strentgh onto others?

ngilop
2012-12-14, 11:28 PM
buffed up divine word a bit.

Zman
2012-12-14, 11:46 PM
I think Tier 3 is great to shoot for.

Looking better but I still think you've got too many dead levels.

Ok, dead levels are 3,10,12,15,16,19. 5, 8, 14 merely give access to a new spell level.

Let's start simple, Fighter Bonus Feat at levels 5,10,15.

I'm thinking one more ability at 3 that improves at lvl12. I'd like to see something social, or more utility based. How about....

Voice of the Rightous: When speaking for a cause the Templar truly believes in or is charged to complete the Templar gains a competance bonus equal to their Templar level to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. This is usable up to half your Wisdom modifier times per day. At 12th level this ability is used whenever the Templar speaks for his causes.

A solid Tier 3 class can do more than one thing well. A little more versatility would go along way.

ngilop
2012-12-14, 11:50 PM
remember intangibles such as cuases are the domain of the Paladin. actuak physical existance nouns are the Templar's cup of tea.

but I do see dead levels.. I have the perfect one for 19th level.. not too sure baout 3rd level.. maybe that is where I should pop int eh shield other ability?

Zman
2012-12-14, 11:54 PM
remember intangibles such as cuases are the domain of the Paladin. actuak physical existance nouns are the Templar's cup of tea.

but I do see dead levels.. I have the perfect one for 19th level.. not too sure baout 3rd level.. maybe that is where I should pop int eh shield other ability?

Firstly, you really don't talk about what the Templar is. Maybe causes are wrong, how about the same effects when following orders, or following the church's orders, or acting in their name.

Don't worry about 19th, it's close enough to capstone it can be a dead level. Makes the anticipation that much better.

ngilop
2012-12-15, 12:09 AM
well i touched on what the Templar is. the Paladin is more a defender of the weak and upholder of the righteous, the bringer of a deity's wrath upon teh fools he/she might pity. Though more of a protector or defender from the wicked, the paladin is boosted by the powers that be to bring certain defeat, destruction and death to those who are evil.

the Templar is more of a Temple Guard/bodyguard that is gifted with Divine powers. he is Guarding the churches, the followers, relics, shrines and other such. Basically I created the Templar becuase soembody wanted to be more like a paladin, but not have to be 'exalted' good so to speak. and Sicne the Crusader is a waay more offensive focused I was like 'hey what if i take the adept combine it with the Fighter and then add in an ability that is sort fo like rage, where you get a nice combat boost? the player siad ' sounds cool, though adept spells would need to be changed, let me write down what I think the spells should be'

For my player (s) the Templar was good enough as is, I hope now they can be slightly suprised.

whilst teh crusader is the gung ho let take on a cause, leade the charge and kill teh evullz!! type of divine 'striker' i guess you could call it. Think of the Crusader as a Divine Duskblade and you would be 90% correct.

Acanous
2012-12-15, 12:26 AM
Firstly, you really don't talk about what the Templar is. Maybe causes are wrong, how about the same effects when following orders, or following the church's orders, or acting in their name.


I know, right? I read over that entire class, including the spell list. Nowhere did I see Feedback, Psistorm, or Hallucination- much less the capstone "Archon Transformation".

ngilop
2012-12-15, 12:41 AM
I know, right? I read over that entire class, including the spell list. Nowhere did I see Feedback, Psistorm, or Hallucination- much less the capstone "Archon Transformation".

thats becuase I needed to construct more pylons.

Amechra
2012-12-15, 12:46 AM
If he's a temple guardian/bodyguard, give him class features that emphasize that; it should be something that pops in your head as "that is what this guy does".

I'm glad the player this was for enjoyed it, but putting it online and saying that you want it to be Bard pow.er-level, and not considering why people are telling you it is too weak is kinda eh, if you know what I mean.

Anyway:

1. Give them the ability to resist attempts to move him away from his charge, eventually scaling up to big bonus/immunity. Because as it is, they guard a temple, and someone can just imprison them/teleport them away.

2. Give them increased damage/AC/DR/whatever while they are guarding their "charge", so that they can just, you know, do their job a bit better.

3. Give them something that let's them get in the way of attacks against their charge. So they could jump in front of an arrow, or take the death ray that was fired at the high priest. With their chest, if necessary.

Razanir
2012-12-15, 12:41 PM
well i touched on what the Templar is. the Paladin is more a defender of the weak and upholder of the righteous, the bringer of a deity's wrath upon teh fools he/she might pity. Though more of a protector or defender from the wicked, the paladin is boosted by the powers that be to bring certain defeat, destruction and death to those who are evil.

the Templar is more of a Temple Guard/bodyguard that is gifted with Divine powers. he is Guarding the churches, the followers, relics, shrines and other such. Basically I created the Templar becuase soembody wanted to be more like a paladin, but not have to be 'exalted' good so to speak. and Sicne the Crusader is a waay more offensive focused I was like 'hey what if i take the adept combine it with the Fighter and then add in an ability that is sort fo like rage, where you get a nice combat boost? the player siad ' sounds cool, though adept spells would need to be changed, let me write down what I think the spells should be'

For my player (s) the Templar was good enough as is, I hope now they can be slightly suprised.

whilst teh crusader is the gung ho let take on a cause, leade the charge and kill teh evullz!! type of divine 'striker' i guess you could call it. Think of the Crusader as a Divine Duskblade and you would be 90% correct.

If he just wanted to be the guardian of the temple, why wouldn't he just fluff a cleric or paladin that way? And before you reiterate "he didn't want to be LG," remember– You're the DM. You can change alignment restrictions if you want to. Declare paladins only have to be good.

Also, not to sound rude, but could you spellcheck/proofread your posts? There's a lot of typing errors, like switching two letters or transposing a space

ngilop
2012-12-15, 03:43 PM
Well to give even more background information here.

The templar was just, in the beginning, a multi-classed Fighter/Shaman for my 2nd ed world ( shamans were clerics that only had access to 3 spheres so like a small minority of the overall cleric spells) when 3rd edition came around I just had them be just multi-class chars and consequently upped their levels due to the way that worked in 3rd as opposed to 2nd.

And to take away that which makes the paladin a paladin, the mega altruistic shining example of righteouness and viture would render the paladin something it is not. which is why I created the Crusader it a good only divine hybrid.

BUt in the end It really boils down to what one's and one's groups definition of Paladin is. Yours seems tobe jusy Holy warrior, while mine and my group has a more, uhmm... strict? definition.

again he wanted to be a more divine protector and knew the history of my world and that when he came up with the whole 'Well Templars are guards why not just make it a class?' SO i knew that being straight cleric ( as did the player) would be wrong becuase in fluff AND mechanics Templars were mainly fighters that had minor clerical abilites so being a straight cleric was out of the question.

My players love to immerse themselves in the world and the story. so for them to be a cleric and call themselves a Templar as teh tempalr was already a very specific existing object in my game would be akin to playing soem warhammer 40K and saying you are a female space marine.

The player knew the basis of what Templars were and that is why he suggested it. So we did the whole sharing or ideas and compromise on things and came up with what I had for the first, and ist never really been a major hindrance to anybody.

but then my group has a different playstyle. We do not play to their 'tier' playstyle at all. We all know that classes are more powerful than others but just becuase that one can destroy the world and be a vertible deity as a wizard/cleric don;'t mean that is how one should be played, for us D&D is a cooperative game where you are playing with friends and having a good time trying to achieve some goal of some sort.

others might like to be 'hey look at what i cna do, its basically what youd o but a dozen times better.. POWAH!!!'

But just becuase somebody wants to play say a Healer does not mean we are going to sit there call him/her a chump then proceed to say how a cleric is so much better just be a cleric and call yourself a healer.

Amechra
2012-12-15, 06:09 PM
But the thing is, there are things a healer can do that a straight cleric couldn't.

There really isn't anything this can do that a Cleric can't, with proper spell choices.

That is the issue here; they don't get anything that makes them feel unique.

ngilop
2012-12-17, 12:52 PM
SO I thought about it, and wondered what you all think of me turning this into a prestige class instead of a base class?

Amechra
2012-12-17, 06:26 PM
That would work; I personally have no preference one way or another.

ngilop
2012-12-17, 08:45 PM
there I changed it into a Prestige class that has very simple reqs.

as a side note, I do skills differently from D&D 3rd.

It is basically liek a cross between 3rd and PF somewhat

all skills are bought on a 1 for 1 basis, but cross class skills are capped at your total hit die, while class skills get the standard hit die +3 maximum.

so a full BAB class can get into this a lot earlier that say a cleric could making if a more fight oriented class like how I envisioned it.

Razanir
2012-12-17, 10:31 PM
there I changed it into a Prestige class that has very simple reqs.

as a side note, I do skills differently from D&D 3rd.

It is basically liek a cross between 3rd and PF somewhat

all skills are bought on a 1 for 1 basis, but cross class skills are capped at your total hit die, while class skills get the standard hit die +3 maximum.

so a full BAB class can get into this a lot earlier that say a cleric could making if a more fight oriented class like how I envisioned it.

I'd still list it as Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks