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Pegasos989
2006-10-30, 04:31 AM
So, first of all, I am certainly not core only DM and I like the Duskblade - both in concept and mechanics. However, there is a few things I find a bit wierd and for which I would appreciate clearing out.

First is just a minor thing - when they can channel many of their low-level spells and others are swift, why do they get combat casting? What's the benefit they get from it?

The second is a balance issue. 4th level duskblade with blade of blood and shocking grasp. They cast blade of blood as a swift, channel shocking grasp to their attack and deal
1d6 (blade of blood) +4d6 (shocking grasp) + their normal damage,
so +5d6. +7d6 if they take 5 points of damage. So, say a duskblade with a greatsword (or do they need 1 hand to cast?), or let's go duskblade with a longsword, can deal easily 1d8+7d6+1 (as he has put higher stats to con).

Sure. It is just 3 times a round but if Duskblade comes to boss encounter and deals 21d6+3d8+3 damage in three rounds without crits...?


Then again, this might not be a problem on average (25 pointbuy), because it needs duskblade to have con atleast 14 or so (and as he is elf, there goes 10 points) and then to get int bonus, would require spending 6 points more. leaving only STR 13, Dex 12 and all other stats to 8, leaving it unable to do... anything in the rest of the fight. So I am not saying it is overpowered. Just that no class should be able to deal over 80 damage in three rounds at 4th level without crits or anything.

Nocturne
2006-10-30, 04:44 AM
Well, I like the idea of the Duskblade too. I plan on having one as my BBEG in the second adventure of my campaign. The PC's will still be level 1 by then (Adventure 2 should put them up a level if all goes well). I'm thinking of either making the Duskblade level 2 and having him alone against the party, or level 1 with two level 1 warriors to aid him.

I'll let you know how it goes (Should play that one by the end of December). But I'd also be interested in hearing other people's opinions of him at slightly higher levels, because I think I'm going to be using them quite a bit.

Thomas
2006-10-30, 04:56 AM
So I am not saying it is overpowered. Just that no class should be able to deal over 80 damage in three rounds at 4th level without crits or anything.

A 4th-level wizard casts three color spray spells. Since you're assuming those attacks hit, I guess we can assume the opponents fail their saves... the 4th-level wizard has done easily the equivalent of 80 points of damage. ;) The rest of the party kills the defenseless opponents at their leisure.

Heck, a 5th-level wizard just dealing plain damage could do more of it in three rounds than that duskblade. 5d6 thrice to all opponents in any particular 40-foot diameter area.

Duskblades aren't bad, but their power lies in those spells, and holding them out for a boss encounter isn't that smart.


Oh, and I guess they get Combat Casting for non-swift buffs. Sometimes you end up having to cast one in combat. Not that Combat Casting is really useful to anyone; Skill Focus (Concentration) is plain superior.

Felan
2006-10-30, 11:51 AM
I'm running a game that includes a duskblade player, and you're right, they can dish out some damage - what I've seen to build on your blade of blood/channel shocking grasp deal:

duskblade has an 18 strength and wields a greatsword (rolled quite well on stats).

round 1 - cast true strike and maneuver to a good position
round 2 - cast blade of blood, sacking the 5 hp for + 3d6 damage
channel shocking grasp
power attack you max base attack (you're true striking after all)

2d6 (greatsword) + 3d6 (blade of blood) + 5d6 (5th level shocking grasp) + 7 (strength bonus) + 10 (power attack) = 10d6 + 17 damage (not including sword enchantments, of course).

That does, of course, go a long way toward killing a level-equivalent bad guy. Some things I've noticed, though, for managing them in a campaign - the above example used half of a duskblade's first level spells for 1 opponent. If you have the standard 4 encounters per day, they won't be able to bring the true beatin's on more than a couple of opponents. Also, if you use several less powerful monsters in groups rather than 1 big monster per encounter. Also, this works great at 5th level, but with every increase in level, the baddies get more hit points, but the duskblades offensive capability starts to level out. By the time you get to 10th level, they'll have a harder time of things, and your wizards will start to steal the spotlight back.

Pegasos989
2006-10-30, 03:04 PM
A 4th-level wizard casts three color spray spells. Since you're assuming those attacks hit, I guess we can assume the opponents fail their saves... the 4th-level wizard has done easily the equivalent of 80 points of damage. ;) The rest of the party kills the defenseless opponents at their leisure.

Heck, a 5th-level wizard just dealing plain damage could do more of it in three rounds than that duskblade. 5d6 thrice to all opponents in any particular 40-foot diameter area.

Duskblades aren't bad, but their power lies in those spells, and holding them out for a boss encounter isn't that smart.


Oh, and I guess they get Combat Casting for non-swift buffs. Sometimes you end up having to cast one in combat. Not that Combat Casting is really useful to anyone; Skill Focus (Concentration) is plain superior.

Well, color spray at those levels? "save or be stunned for 1 round"? Or sleep (which doesn't even affect boss encounters anymore)?

Also, one level later, fireball does 5d6 and half with save. Really not even close.

Yes, I do agree that duskblade is not strong compared to wizard (ray of enfeeblement at 4th level deals 1d6+2 str damage, propable hit and in the said 3 rounds, 3d6+6 is enough to render subject pretty worthless. Also, going 1 level up when wizard gets save-or-loses, such as deep slumber, again...) but really, I don't want to compare new melee classes to the power of strong spellcasting classes. I just fear that it will hog the glory from the melee-guy next to him when he deals 7d6 + the amount that the other guy.


But yeah, maybe I am just overreacting and as said, on average pointbuy it isn't that bad propably. We have just been used to very high powered games.

TheThan
2006-10-30, 03:20 PM
Really the duskblade is just fine power wise. Wizards are just that much superior to nearly everything else. Just because you can cast spells doesn’t put you in the same class (take a look at the bard to get the point). Bards are just fine, but not as strong as the other two core arcane casters. Duskblade is not a true “gish” class but it’s pretty strong when compared to a lot of the other classes. It’s one of my favorite classes in the game really.

Tibor
2006-10-30, 04:45 PM
Duskblade is what the War Mage should have been. But it's far from overpowered at all, especially at low levels.

You really can't play a duskblade and have it be a consistant threat with a 25 point buy, there's just too many important stats. Con, Dex, Str, and Int.

Truffles
2006-10-30, 05:54 PM
pegasos 989, ray of enfeeblement (as great as it is) does not stack =(

oriong
2006-10-30, 06:03 PM
Okay, he's inflicting 7d6 damage with a single attack, that took him 3 rounds and two spells to use, and 5 damage to himself, in addition to any damage opponents are smacking him with while he takes the time to power up.

Compare to a 4th level barbarian with a greatsword and strength of let's say 16. Rages, and attacks every round for those 3 rounds. Each attack inflicts 2d6+6 damage, at the end of the three rounds thats 6d6+18. An average of 39 damage to the Duskblade's average of 24.5 + strength bonus. What's more the barbarian's damage is divided among 3 attack rolls, meaning one bad roll doesn't waste 3 rounds of effort.

If the barbarian power attacked for 2 points of damage (the attack bonus gained from raging) then the damage he inflicts in those three rounds becomes 6d6+30, an average of 51 damage to the duskblade's 24.5 + strength.

If anything the duskblade's strategy is a very poor choice, not an overbalanced one.

Dhavaer
2006-10-30, 06:20 PM
Okay, he's inflicting 7d6 damage with a single attack, that took him 3 rounds and two spells to use, and 5 damage to himself, in addition to any damage opponents are smacking him with while he takes the time to power up.

Where are you getting the three rounds from? Assuming you're referring to the scenario in the OP, it'd take the Duskblade 1 round to cast Blade of Blood, channel Shocking Grasp and attack.

Aximili
2006-10-30, 09:36 PM
Yes, I do agree that duskblade is not strong compared to wizard (ray of enfeeblement at 4th level deals 1d6+2 str damage, propable hit and in the said 3 rounds, 3d6+6 is enough to render subject pretty worthless. Also, going 1 level up when wizard gets save-or-loses, such as deep slumber, again...) but really, I don't want to compare new melee classes to the power of strong spellcasting classes. I just fear that it will hog the glory from the melee-guy next to him when he deals 7d6 + the amount that the other guy.


ray of enfeeblement does not deal strenght damage. it imposes a strengh penalty and does not stack with itself.

oriong
2006-10-30, 10:09 PM
Where are you getting the three rounds from? Assuming you're referring to the scenario in the OP, it'd take the Duskblade 1 round to cast Blade of Blood, channel Shocking Grasp and attack.

Sorry, I didn't actually know the abilities of the duskblade, I was just taking that from what the original poster said.

Nero24200
2006-10-31, 07:52 AM
Hate it here, if you want to play an armoured spellcaster who is good in combat, thats what clerics are for.

PinkysBrain
2006-10-31, 11:38 AM
I don't want to compare new melee classes to the power of strong spellcasting classes. I just fear that it will hog the glory from the melee-guy next to him when he deals 7d6 + the amount that the other guy.
Just throw away all the core non casting classes and let the people who want to play martial characters use the classes from Tome of Battle instead. The non casting classes in D&D are broken, using them as a yard stick just breaks more of the game rather than fixing anything.

Soepvork
2006-11-01, 09:44 AM
So, say a duskblade with a greatsword (or do they need 1 hand to cast?)


I think they do...

Person_Man
2006-11-02, 04:49 PM
A sixth level human Fighter (or a fouth level one with a flaw, or a Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2) with Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, And Knock-Down. Charges with a non-magical lance 2 handed, and deals 3d8+12 damage, gets a free Trip Attempt from Knock-Down, and then gets a free follow up attack that deals another 3d8+12 points of damage.

A fifth level Druid can turn into a deinonychus, and get 4 attacks (even on a charge with Pounce), all of which have any magic buffs, Power Attack, etc.

A fourth level Ranger attacks with two weapons and his wolf animal companion, getting 5 attacks. A sixth level Ranger with Rapidshot and an animal companion can easily get 6 attacks.

A 5th level Cleric with the right combo of domains and divine metamagic cheese can get one, and maybe two, 24 hour Persistant buffs, including Haste, Vigor, Displacement, and others.

So no, the Duskblade is not unbalanced. "Unbalanced" things tend to come from codex creep - Class A has open ended powers that can be applied with an endless combination of new spells, feats, abilities, etc. Every time a new splat book comes out, those classes become more powerful. The Duskblade has set powers, a set spell list, and limited bonus feats. It's the definition of a balanced class.

Thomas
2006-11-02, 04:57 PM
"Unbalanced" things tend to come from codex creep - Class A has open ended powers that can be applied with an endless combination of new spells, feats, abilities, etc. Every time a new splat book comes out, those classes become more powerful.

The druid being a great example of this. Shapechange and other polymorph magics are similarly troublesome, obviously.

Tibor
2006-11-03, 02:20 AM
On the two handed weapon thing, you should be able to take your hand off do the somatic component and then put your hand back on as part of your move action. If not then there's always the feat from the Complete Mage that allows you to use your weapon to perform somatic components. It's the TWF 13+ level duskblades where that gets icky as they're channeling their spell on all their attacks.

Dicemaster
2006-11-03, 06:52 AM
On the two handed weapon thing, you should be able to take your hand off do the somatic component and then put your hand back on as part of your move action. If not then there's always the feat from the Complete Mage that allows you to use your weapon to perform somatic components. It's the TWF 13+ level duskblades where that gets icky as they're channeling their spell on all their attacks.

By the way, let's say I channel a spell while doing a full attack. If I connect with more than one attack, does the spell effect apply for each hit, or only once?

its_all_ogre
2006-11-03, 07:37 AM
you can hold a two handed weapon in one hand, you have to use it while fighting with two hands though.
do not think this is overpowered, most of my reasoning have already been quoted!

Thomas
2006-11-03, 07:39 AM
By the way, let's say I channel a spell while doing a full attack. If I connect with more than one attack, does the spell effect apply for each hit, or only once?

It does, if you have the specific ability that says it does. It doesn't if you don't, because then channeling a spell is a standard action (that includes the casting and the hitting) and you can't make a full attack in the round.

Just reading the rules for duskblades will tell you this.

Dicemaster
2006-11-03, 08:45 AM
It does, if you have the specific ability that says it does. It doesn't if you don't, because then channeling a spell is a standard action (that includes the casting and the hitting) and you can't make a full attack in the round.

Just reading the rules for duskblades will tell you this.

I meant at level 13+ of course.
My problem was the wording for Arcane Channeling:
"At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round."
... which seemed to indicate the spell would take effect only once per target, not once per hit, which didn't make sense to me.

So I guess it's once per hit, uh? Thanks.

mikeejimbo
2006-11-03, 08:59 AM
I'm playing a Dragonlance campaign with a Draconian Duskblade. He'll all right, but our typical strategy is to have our wizard charm, dominate, or ensnare the heart of the enemies. And if that fails, put them to sleep and coup them.

My group is weird though.

Thomas
2006-11-03, 09:08 AM
Ah, didn't realize you meant hitting the same target.

Interesting point of interpretation, actually. I'd probably say once per target, since I wouldn't like to see someone smack the same opponent four times with one combust or anything like that.

Person_Man
2006-11-03, 10:58 AM
My understanding is that a 13+ level Duskblade who channels a spell gets the benefits of that spell on every attack that round, including Attacks of Opportunity, Cleaves, iterative attacks against the same opponent, etc.

If the ability allows me to hit 3 different people with my sword and the spell, why shouldn't it allow me to hit the same person 3 times with the same sword and spell?

But I don't have my PHBII in front of me, so I can't re-read the rule to be 100% sure. And of course, its D&D, so real world logic has no place in it. But tha't my current take on it.

MrNexx
2006-11-03, 11:10 AM
My understanding is that a 13+ level Duskblade who channels a spell gets the benefits of that spell on every attack that round, including Attacks of Opportunity, Cleaves, iterative attacks against the same opponent, etc.

This would be my rule, as well.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-03, 01:24 PM
I'm with Thomas on this one. Otherwise, a dedicated TWFer past Duskblade 13 would be able to channel a Touch of Idiocy and hit his opponent five times, each time inflicting 1d6 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

...which would just be hideous.

I mean, you'd be taking an average of 17 points off each of your opponent's mental stats.

Certainly, there's Touch of Idiocy's not-less-than-three policy, but still. Taking a rival caster from brilliant and charismatic to a drooling idiot in six seconds is a bit...overkill.

The ability says "each target you hit", though, so I suppose it could be argued to mean "each time you hit," not "once per target."

This may be something that needs asking.

Thomas
2006-11-03, 01:27 PM
I'm with Thomas on this one. Otherwise, a dedicated TWFer past Duskblade 13 would be able to channel a Touch of Idiocy and hit his opponent five times, each time inflicting 1d6 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

My big worry is really a bit of a cheesy exploit. A Wiz7/Duskblade 13 using combust or frosbite (or anything that does Dex damage, really; bye bye dragons).

Person_Man
2006-11-03, 02:05 PM
I'm with Thomas on this one. Otherwise, a dedicated TWFer past Duskblade 13 would be able to channel a Touch of Idiocy and hit his opponent five times, each time inflicting 1d6 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

...which would just be hideous.

I mean, you'd be taking an average of 17 points off each of your opponent's mental stats.

Certainly, there's Touch of Idiocy's not-less-than-three policy, but still. Taking a rival caster from brilliant and charismatic to a drooling idiot in six seconds is a bit...overkill.

The ability says "each target you hit", though, so I suppose it could be argued to mean "each time you hit," not "once per target."

This may be something that needs asking.

Well, I took a look over at the WotC boards, and it seems as if all of the Duskblade builds are set-up to do exactly that (or similar Spiked Chain AoO builds).

Yes, its potent. No denial there. This is what the Duskblade was meant to do - kill people by hitting them with their melee weapon imbued with a spell. Why shouldn't they be really good at it?

But having said that, its still balanced.

In most cases, it requires that the Duskblade start his turn next to his enemy (so that he can make a full attack), so it doesn't work well against flying or otherwise mobile enemies. And it requires a To-Hit roll each time, so it doesn't work well against high AC enemies. And there are whole catagories of enemies with high SR, or that are immune to ability damage, or with etheralness, displacement, or some other protection. And Touch of Idiocy can't reduce your stats below 1, so you'd also need a weapon or effect that can do Int, Wis, or Cha damage. And it uses up a spell, so the Duskblade can only do it a limited number of times per day.

There are any number of ways for a DM to create balanced encounters, so that the Duskblade PC has some opportunities to shine, and some opportunities to be challenged.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-03, 02:17 PM
Ooh, I also forgot about the "same-effect" clause on spells. Only the first Touch of Idiocy/Frostbite would take.

PinkysBrain
2006-11-04, 10:09 AM
At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round."
... which seemed to indicate the spell would take effect only once per target, not once per hit, which didn't make sense to me.
How doesn't it make sense? It's the only balanced reading of the ability.

You have two choices, a balanced reading and a broken reading ... why go for the broken reading? <Scrubbed by the Sheriff of Moddingham>

Fax, same effect rules are irrelevant to instantaneous damage spells.

This is a friendly warning to watch your language and your treament of others. Thank you.

Tibor
2006-11-04, 12:29 PM
Well the point is moot really considering Combust and Frostbite aren't duskblade spells and you can only use your channel abilities with your duskblade spells. The most you need to concern yourself with is multiple vampiric touches, and the temp hit points for all the attacks after the first don't stack.

This is just like the argument of Wraith Strike vs True strike. It doesn't matter cause duskblade doesn't get wraith strike, unless you cross class to wizard and then you lose BAB which was your point for taking the class in the first place, or you can take chameleon (you still lose BAB, but not as much) and you can cast wraith strike, but then again you can also cast slay living.

PinkysBrain
2006-11-04, 01:10 PM
First off, it simply says "any spell you know" so I disagree it only works with Duskblade casting. Secondly, there are ways to get spells from different classes with your duskblade casting ... Ring of theurgy, Recaster, Drake Helm etc.

Tibor
2006-11-04, 01:24 PM
I don't have access to my copy of PHB2 at the moment so I'll concede the point, but you still need to cross class or PRC out of duskblade to get the spells known.

PinkysBrain
2006-11-04, 01:43 PM
Ring of Theurgy and Drake Helm are both items.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-04, 02:16 PM
They may be irrelevant to insta-damage spells, but to durationed-penalties (like Touch of Idiocy), they are quite apropos.

Tibor
2006-11-04, 02:32 PM
Ring of Theurgy and Drake Helm are both items.

What books are they from. I'm not famliliar with any items that allow you to "know" spells from other class lists, I know of items that store them, but they don't add them to spells known.

PinkysBrain
2006-11-04, 02:57 PM
Ring of Theurgy is from CA, it adds a single spell to your spells known as a spontaneous caster but you can only cast it once (the spell has to be cast into the ring by someone else each time you want to use it in this manner).

Drake Helm is from Eberron Explorer's Handbook, it adds spells known period.

Dicemaster
2006-11-05, 06:10 AM
A Duskblade/Divine Crusader is kinda broken, I'll admit, but I don't se why channeling Harm on three separate targets in the same round is supposedly balanced and Harming 3 times one opponent isn't.:smallconfused:

The_Last_Night
2006-11-05, 06:25 AM
Uh... because loads of damage to one opponent is much, much more powerful than that damage spread out among several opponents? (For example, a fireball that does 10d6 to 5 people is okay, but one that does 50d6 to one person isn't.)

Edit: and no, a Duskblade/Divine Crusader isn't "broken". It's not even that great.

Save "broken" for stuff that really does break the game.

Dicemaster
2006-11-05, 10:27 AM
Uh... because loads of damage to one opponent is much, much more powerful than that damage spread out among several opponents? (For example, a fireball that does 10d6 to 5 people is okay, but one that does 50d6 to one person isn't.)

Edit: and no, a Duskblade/Divine Crusader isn't "broken". It's not even that great.

Save "broken" for stuff that really does break the game.

So, a full attacking barbarian that does N damage to 3 people is ok, but one that does 3N to a single one isn't? :smallconfused:

We aren't talking about AoEs.
Those are single target attacks - both the melee hits and the spells where created as such.

Given enough time, a sorcerer could cast Shocking Grasp on 3 targets or 3 times on a single one. The ability to squeeze that in a single round doesn't change the balance in either case.

I'll admit on Dusk/DC not being broken, though.:smallcool:

PinkysBrain
2006-11-05, 12:28 PM
Plain damage attacks which martial character have are a poor comparison, a better comparison is the Chain Spell feat ... why can't a chained spell affect a single target multiple times? It would be balanced in your opinion, right?

Being able to force 8 save or dies with a single full attack on a single target is a problem.

Thray
2006-11-05, 12:45 PM
So, a full attacking barbarian that does N damage to 3 people is ok, but one that does 3N to a single one isn't? :smallconfused:


Who said that it was "broken" for a barb to do that much damage? It's just that generally speaking, it's a more effective option to concentrate that damage on one opponent at a time, which is why spells like disintegrate are so much more restrictive than delayed blast fireball, despite the latter being able to do more overall damage.

Dicemaster
2006-11-05, 02:46 PM
Touche'.
I realize I was getting opinionated on the subject.
By RAW, the answer is once-per-target. The same holds true for game balance, so I guess there's nothing more I can say.

I hate save-or-suck spells... do you think that limiting the Channeling to Duskblade spells would allow for a balanced once-per-hit interpretation?

Sombrenote
2007-07-12, 04:26 PM
This is really usefully for helping me incress the power of my duskblade. Thank you.

Soepvork
2007-07-12, 05:57 PM
I meant at level 13+ of course.
affects each target you hit in melee combat that round."
... which seemed to indicate the spell would take effect only once per target, not once per hit, which didn't make sense to me.

So I guess it's once per hit, uh? Thanks.

The FAQ on the wizards site states it is once per target