Archer: Fighter or Scout ? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-13, 03:24 AM

Fighter, (Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)) Cleric, and Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) are your top choices for pure damage output. Scout is actually one of the worst choices IMO. A lot of it is entirely dependent on getting the right properties on your bow, a way to guarantee that would be to make it an Ancestral Relic (BoED) or an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), or just take Craft Magic Arms and Armor. It also somewhat depends on what level you're starting at, and what level you expect the game to reach.

Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)

Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) deserves an honorable mention, but it's considerably different from a typical archer, and doesn't even shoot anything until 6th level. Use a mix of Soulknife and Swordsage to qualify and be sure to use TWF.

nedz

2012-12-13, 06:01 AM

Question: Archer: Fighter or Scout ?
Answer: Ranger, though Swift Hunter is a thing.

Also (Ray-)Sorcerer or Warlock — for bow less archery.

Diovid

2012-12-13, 06:42 AM

Question: Archer: Fighter or Scout ?
Answer: The Targeteer Fighter variant.

nedz

2012-12-13, 06:51 AM

Answer: The Targeteer Fighter variant.

That's just a 2 level dip :smalltongue:

Gwendol

2012-12-13, 10:45 AM

Cleric archers use Zen archery to get use of their wisdom, and spiritual weapon to attack more often in a round.

Fighters get the feats, which (non-magical) archery needs in droves.

Rangers get some feats as bonus, and without having to fulfill the pre-reqs, but more importantly they get a lot of skillpoints and the right skills for a good archer (perception, stealth). They get a pet who can help scout. They get some spells that may enhance archery and/or scouting.

So, either go the divine caster archer route, or make a fighter/ranger archer?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-13, 11:11 AM

Clerics get the Spell domain for Greater Anyspell, and DMM: Persist Draconic Polymorph into an Arrow Demon to use two bows at once without any penalties.

toapat

2012-12-13, 11:15 AM

That's just a 2 level dip :smalltongue:

actually, its a 1 level dip. Arrow Swarm or Sniper are not really worth it

the actual best archer is a rogue, with a 4 level dip into ranger to get Distracting Attack.

Combined, you want this:

Distracting Attack Ranger 4/Targetteer 1/Rogue 15. This is actually pretty good because it gives you good ranged competence, a number of options, damage, and you can participate outside of combat

docnessuno

2012-12-13, 11:21 AM

Distracting attack, while nice, does not allow you to deal sneak attack damage. You still need to deny your opponent Dex bonus somehow, wich is a real pain in the... rear end.

Once you enter fighter you might as well stay for 4 levels, allowing you to pick up ranged weapon mastery later on.

And, despite what you think, scouts (and swift hunters) make very effective archers from the mid levels (9-12) onwards.

Another good option is Soulbow, for a Wis-based archer (Wis to attack and damage).

nedz

2012-12-13, 11:49 AM

actually, its a 1 level dip. Arrow Swarm or Sniper are not really worth it
I was being generous.
Am I missing something with Arrow Swarm ?
Archers generally don't want for to hit bonuses, beyond low level anyway, and more attacks is more attacks. Besides you could always pick up another fighter feat.

Once you enter fighter you might as well stay for 4 levels, allowing you to pick up ranged weapon mastery later on.
That's a lot of skill points, and Ranger class features, for 1 Fighter feat ?
Though Weapon Specialisation + Ranged Weapon Mastery are nice.

Asgardian

2012-12-13, 01:28 PM

Distracting attack, while nice, does not allow you to deal sneak attack damage. You still need to deny your opponent Dex bonus somehow, wich is a real pain in the... rear end.

I thought flanking allowed sneak attack damage as well. And since Distracting attack it is considered a flank for your allies' attack....

Gwendol

2012-12-13, 01:31 PM

For allies yes, not for you.

Urpriest

2012-12-13, 02:16 PM

I thought flanking allowed sneak attack damage as well. And since Distracting attack it is considered a flank for your allies' attack....

You can't flank with ranged attacks.

Togo

2012-12-13, 02:24 PM

Most of the best archers I've seen played have been scouts, relying on getting some method of moving without spending a move action, so that you can get skirmish damage on a full attack.

In practice they tend to be mixes of scout and ranger levels, with fighter added for the bonus feats where needed.

toapat

2012-12-13, 05:49 PM

I thought flanking allowed sneak attack damage as well. And since Distracting attack it is considered a flank for your allies' attack....

For allies yes, not for you.

actually, this is moreso a problem of the flanking rules, in that flanking is a debuff, worded as a buff. Although you are not allowed to benefit from the attack bonus against a Flanked enemy, the Distracting Attack ability does not say that you can not apply sneak attack to the attacks.

docnessuno

2012-12-13, 06:11 PM

Still, the distract ability states that the enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjucating your allies (next) attack.

It's quite clear that you don't gain any bonus from that.

nedz

2012-12-13, 07:22 PM

Doesn't Allies normally include self ?
Or is that only sometimes ?

It's only for the first attack anyway — which is not so good.

toapat

2012-12-13, 09:34 PM

Still, the distract ability states that the enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjucating your allies (next) attack.

It's quite clear that you don't gain any bonus from that.

Doesn't Allies normally include self ?
Or is that only sometimes ?

It's only for the first attack anyway — which is not so good.

Actually Nedz, Distracting attack is applied on every attack.

Wow, the glossary actually ruined my previous argument, in a beautifully simple definition of Ally

Distracting Attack, while not clear in that it does this, actually does benefit yourself, even if it does not look like it, because it says your Allies, not your Other allies. the Example is what makes it look like it sucks

unless your character has MPD with an LG and CE side, and is thus their own enemy.

nedz

2012-12-13, 10:56 PM

Actually Nedz, Distracting attack is applied on every attack.

This flanking condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first.

So as soon as someone attacks the target the flanking condition ends. Therefore it is good for only one attack.

If it does apply to your own attacks, assuming that you hit more than once in a round, then you can chain the effect; and the target will still be flanked — for one more attack at least.

Talya

2012-12-14, 12:01 AM

It doesn't apply on your first (and most likely to hit) attack of the round. Then every time you miss, you lose it again on your next attack until you hit, then you might get it for your attack after that.

Since you only get 1 more sneak attack die than the Swift Hunter gets Skirmish dice (not to mention other AC bonuses they lose out on), you miss out on piles of favored enemies, and you also don't get to apply the precision damage on sneak attacks to undead/elementals/plants/oozes/etc... whereas you'll get full skirmish damage on everything...

Best archer for damage is Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 4. Feats - Greater Manyshot, Improved Skirmish, Sword of the Arcane Order.

Your spellcasting is great.
Your Skirmish is 7d6, +7AC.
You have +19 BAB (and can therefore get 4 attacks with greater manyshot as a standard action, all benefiting from skirmish individually.)
Your Favored Enemies always qualify for precision damage (and get a pretty nice damage bonus as well.)
Or, for extra fun, take wild cohort, ride-by-attack, and let your mount do the moving underneath you while you plunk away with Rapid Shot full attacks.

candycorn

2012-12-14, 12:46 AM

Best archer for damage is Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 4. Feats - Greater Manyshot, Improved Skirmish, Sword of the Arcane Order.

Your spellcasting is great.
Your Skirmish is 7d6, +7AC.
You have +19 BAB (and can therefore get 4 attacks with greater manyshot as a standard action, all benefiting from skirmish individually.)
Your Favored Enemies always qualify for precision damage (and get a pretty nice damage bonus as well.)
Or, for extra fun, take wild cohort, ride-by-attack, and let your mount do the moving underneath you while you plunk away with Rapid Shot full attacks.

Exactly what provides the bolded ability? I see nothing in mystic ranger, ranger, scout, or the feats listed which allow you to bypass the requirements for precision damage for favored enemies.

eggs

2012-12-14, 12:48 AM

Presumably, Swift Hunter is also on the feat list.

Philistine

2012-12-14, 12:53 AM

Swift Hunter lets you apply precision damage to enemies that would normally be immune.

TuggyNE

2012-12-14, 12:59 AM

Or, for extra fun, take wild cohort, ride-by-attack, and let your mount do the moving underneath you while you plunk away with Rapid Shot full attacks.

The rest of your post is excellent and correct, but if memory serves mount-powered movement specifically no longer qualifies for skirmish.

TypoNinja

2012-12-14, 01:24 AM

I'm doing the scout3 to ranger and swifthunter for an archer. I dropped feats instead of taking a cleric dip to pick up travel devotion to let me full attack with skirmish.

God Touched, and Divine Channeler lets you pick up turn undead without spending levels.

Divine Channeler

Type: General
Source: Dragon #305

You can channel some divine energy to turn or rebuke undead.
Prerequisite: God Touched, patron deity
Benefit: Once per day, you can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of one-half your character level. If you are good-aligned (or a neutral worshiper of a good deity), this feat lets you turn undead. If you are evil-aligned (or a neutral worshiper of an evil deity), it lets you rebuke undead. If you are a neutral worshiper of a neutral deity, you can choose to either turn or rebuke upon taking the feat, but you cannot later change that decision.
Special: You can take this feat more than once, gaining one extra use per day of the turn or rebuke ability each time.

God touched is your generic +1 to a roll once a day feat tax.

Go with either nightsticks or Extra Turning to expand your uses per day. and Bam, power devotions without needing cleric dips.

toapat

2012-12-14, 01:27 AM

Your Favored Enemies always qualify for precision damage (and get a pretty nice damage bonus as well.)

and rogues have an ACF that gets them half precision damage regardless, as well as having the ability to reroll 1s. You may need to invest in a few feats, but Sneak attack is better, expecially because you dont need to jump through hoops for the combat.

also, rogue 15 is a simplicity thing, not actually an optimized point. going that route you should be shoveling on 1 level dips in anything that gives sneak attack dice, and find space for a Marshal Stance: Stance of Chaos

TypoNinja

2012-12-14, 01:36 AM

and rogues have an ACF that gets them half precision damage regardless, as well as having the ability to reroll 1s. You may need to invest in a few feats, but Sneak attack is better, expecially because you dont need to jump through hoops for the combat.

also, rogue 15 is a simplicity thing, not actually an optimized point. going that route you should be shoveling on 1 level dips in anything that gives sneak attack dice, and find space for a Marshal Stance: Stance of Chaos

Yea, but I find its much harder to qualify for SA damage using a ranged weapon, so sure skirmish is less d6's but an archer can probably apply it more often.

Also if your DM is feeling nice he'll rule on a precision damage transparency so things like Truedeath augment crystals still help you out.

toapat

2012-12-14, 01:40 AM

Yea, but I find its much harder to qualify for SA damage using a ranged weapon.

Ranger 4, Crossbow Sniper can be applied to bows if you have ToB so range isnt so much a problem

TypoNinja

2012-12-14, 01:48 AM

Ranger 4, Crossbow Sniper can be applied to bows if you have ToB so range isnt so much a problem

Oh, I didn't mean range (though I think that's a better way to get the extra 30 feet than the Ranged Skirmish feat) I mean literally, qualifying for Sneak Attack damage. When your Melee setting up the flank is fairly easy, but holding a bow, not so much.

how does ToB modify that feat though? I don't have that book.

toapat

2012-12-14, 02:10 AM

how does ToB modify that feat though? I don't have that book.

it doesnt. the Aptitude Weapon modifier, which typically has to be applied by paladins because it requires weapon focus of the same kind as the weapon you are enchanting, allows you to apply weapon specific feats to the aptitude weapon, or get +1/+1 with the weapon for having a feat linked to your chosen weapon.

Typically it wont come up unless someone wants to use Ribbon Scimitars with Lightning Maces, which depending on interpretation of how far it goes, it will apply to, but even in the most tight of readings the mod lets you apply Crossbow Sniper to any ranged weapon.

an interesting quirk of Aptitude is that it makes Elves, Dwarves, and any other race that gets bonus feat weapon proficiencies able to be proficient with any weapon enchanted with it.

eggs

2012-12-14, 02:19 AM

Qualifying for SA from a range isn't too hard. Throwing out some options, you could:

Snipe
Be Invisible (from Greater Invisibility, Cloak of Deception, Invisible Fist, etc.)
Blink (Probably from a ring, but spells also can happen)
Throw an eggshell grenade
Throw a vial of red tidewater
Sic a grappling animal
Sic a grappling fighter
Combine Surprising Riposte with the Bow Feint feat and swift feinting (Absorb Weapon and Insightful Feint spells are easy ways; Invisible Blade and Scarlet Corsair are possible with more investment)
Cast Distract Assailant
Drop a swift grease effect (either quicken the spell/power with something like Linked Power or Circlet of Rapid Casting or get a swift version like that Legacy ability)
Use the Distracting Attack ranger ability
Wait for the party's blinding/grappling/greasing/stunning debuffer to do its thing.

Or there are the really situational bits like Telling Blow

Talya

2012-12-14, 08:04 AM

The rest of your post is excellent and correct, but if memory serves mount-powered movement specifically no longer qualifies for skirmish.

There is nothing in Complete Adventurer that indicates mounted movement does not qualify you for skirmish. Was it in errata or rules compendium?

(CustServe FAQ answers can stay home, if there are any.)

and rogues have an ACF that gets them half precision damage regardless, as well as having the ability to reroll 1s. You may need to invest in a few feats, but Sneak attack is better, expecially because you dont need to jump through hoops for the combat.

Skirmish is a far easier thing to qualify for than sneak attack. The hoops are mostly on the rogue side of this.

Also, half damage? Why do you want half damage to precision-immune? Especially when it's simplicity itself to get full damage? (The ability to reroll 1s actually only moves the average D6 roll from 3.5 to 3.9.)

Lastly, without going to measures that allow you to move and full attack in the same round, rogue means you're going to be in pounce/charge range of your enemy when your turn is over, and therefore subject to instagibbing. The skirmish ranger has the option to take it's attacks, then move away. (Nothing in skirmish indicates you need to move before you attack to qualify for skirmish, just in the same turn.)

Talderas

2012-12-14, 08:34 AM

I thought flanking allowed sneak attack damage as well. And since Distracting attack it is considered a flank for your allies' attack....

Distracting shot treats a foe you hit as flanked by you. It does not actually treat you as flanking. Since you aren't flanking you would not get the benefit of sneak attack.

Regardless, if it does apply sneak attack it still requires another friendly creature to be threatening the foe. Tricks not withstanding.

nedz

2012-12-14, 08:39 AM

There is nothing in Complete Adventurer that indicates mounted movement does not qualify you for skirmish. Was it in errata or rules compendium?

Page 12: Skirmish (class feature)
The second sentence of the skirmish class feature
should read as follows (new text indicated in red): She
deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she
makes during any round in which she moves at least 10
feet away from where she was at the start of her turn.
The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the
scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability
cannot be used while mounted.
This update should be made wherever the skirmish
ability description is presented (see also pages 31, 56,
and 177).

This would be the Errata you were looking for; especially the last bit.

Talderas

2012-12-14, 08:45 AM

This would be the Errata you were looking for; especially the last bit.

That is disappointing. That was one of the few ways to redeem scout for ranged attacks.

nedz

2012-12-14, 09:10 AM

That is disappointing. That was one of the few ways to redeem scout for ranged attacks.

Scout is a hyper-mundane skill-melee class. Why would you imagine that they would be allowed any nice things ? The game wasn't written by Scouts of the Coast.

Talderas

2012-12-14, 09:17 AM

Scout is a hyper-mundane skill-melee class. Why would you imagine that they would be allowed any nice things ? The game wasn't written by Scouts of the Coast.

However could I be so foolish.

willpell

2012-12-14, 10:18 AM

Scout is actually one of the worst choices IMO.

Are you saying Scout is a bad class, or just bad for this purpose? I normally reflexively tune out judgments of worthlessness for core classes like Fighter, but since Scout is in CAdv and I've never really gotten into that book, I could live with being told not to bother. Though it is nice having another x8 skills class besides Rogue, even if the flavor is virtually identical to the Wilderness Rogue variant.

Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) deserves an honorable mention, but it's considerably different from a typical archer, and doesn't even shoot anything until 6th level. Use a mix of Soulknife and Swordsage to qualify and be sure to use TWF.

You can TWF soulbows? That just seems wrong somehow....

Scout is a hyper-mundane skill-melee class. Why would you imagine that they would be allowed any nice things ? The game wasn't written by Scouts of the Coast.

Can I sig this?

ericgrau

2012-12-14, 10:30 AM

Why not do both? A fighter will be better for pure damage output but you only need 4 levels to get the main source of damage, ranged weapon mastery, and to get some feats. Swift hunter is better for skills. Try Ranger 2 / Fighter 4 / (swift hunter stuff).

You can TWF soulbows? That just seems wrong somehow....

http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/

nedz

2012-12-14, 10:51 AM

Can I sig this?

Sure, why not.
It's an old joke though.

Ed: On seconds thoughts — I'd prefer that you didn't. It's not my joke originally.

toapat

2012-12-14, 11:15 AM

Also, half damage? Why do you want half damage to precision-immune? Especially when it's simplicity itself to get full damage? (The ability to reroll 1s actually only moves the average D6 roll from 3.5 to 3.9.)

Half damage to immune means that the DM cant make you irrelevant by having all the NPCs in a dungeon be a type you dont have favored enemy in, while also having had Miracle - Permanenced Heavy Fortification cast on them, which is only as expensive as a wish spell. Oh, and all the Dex to Damage is Sneak attack anyway.

Distracting shot treats a foe you hit as flanked by you. It does not actually treat you as flanking. Since you aren't flanking you would not get the benefit of sneak attack.

Regardless, if it does apply sneak attack it still requires another friendly creature to be threatening the foe. Tricks not withstanding.

Actually, Flanking is the attack bonus, Flanked is what allows for Sneak Attack, and thus your arguement holds nothing.

Talderas

2012-12-14, 11:29 AM

Actually, Flanking is the attack bonus, Flanked is what allows for Sneak Attack, and thus your arguement holds nothing.

Doesn't matter.

Distracting shot treats a foe as flanked by you.
Sneak attack requires that you are flanking not that you are attacking a flanked foe. Look it up if you don't believe me. If you aren't qualifying for the flanking attack bonus, you aren't flanking.
Distracting shot does not treat yourself as flanking.

The requirements for flanking are that you and one other ally threaten the foe and be able to attack. The first requirement cannot be met by a ranged attacker outside of two circumstances that I am aware of.

The first circumstance is when using the Arrow Mind spell. You are treated as threatening squares adjacent to you. The second method is to take Whisperknife which treats you as using a reach weapon with 10ft reach for the purposes of flanking when using throwing weapons (possibly any ranged weapon).

Regardless, the ability of distracting shot is very clearly worded as a modifier on the attacked creature and not yourself. Even if it were to treat you as flanking the foe, you wouldn't be able to get the benefit of sneak attack without another ally threatening the target.

toapat

2012-12-14, 11:58 AM

Doesn't matter.

Distracting shot treats a foe as flanked by you.
Sneak attack requires that you are flanking not that you are attacking a flanked foe. Look it up if you don't believe me. If you aren't qualifying for the flanking attack bonus, you aren't flanking.
Distracting shot does not treat yourself as flanking.

The requirements for flanking are that you and one other ally threaten the foe and be able to attack. The first requirement cannot be met by a ranged attacker outside of two circumstances that I am aware of.

The first circumstance is when using the Arrow Mind spell. You are treated as threatening squares adjacent to you. The second method is to take Whisperknife which treats you as using a reach weapon with 10ft reach for the purposes of flanking when using throwing weapons (possibly any ranged weapon).

Regardless, the ability of distracting shot is very clearly worded as a modifier on the attacked creature and not yourself. Even if it were to treat you as flanking the foe, you wouldn't be able to get the benefit of sneak attack without another ally threatening the target.

Distracting Attack:
Specifies it requires a physical Weapon, not a melee attack
Applies to yourself
Causes the next attack against that enemy to consider that enemy as flanked, allowing one to flank at range with themselves only.

Flanking has two parts:
A Melee specific Attack bonus
A trigger for allowing sneak attacks

Sneak Attack requires that you flank an enemy. This neither calls out Flanking Or flanked specifically, so it has to be assumed it means either can trigger the sneak attack.

How about you actually read the argument you are making. Because you said that General trumps Specific here. As a result of using Minatures Handbook as your refference to argue about an ACF from PHB2

AsheItachi

2012-12-14, 01:39 PM

docnessuno

2012-12-14, 01:48 PM

eggs

2012-12-14, 02:34 PM

Also was it settled 100% you cant sneak attack with an arrow?Not at all. My last post was just a list of ways it can work. You could blind enemies with alchemical weapons, hide, become invisible, make them grapple your pet, knock them off balance, use a bow feinting combo, hit them with a bloodfreeze arrow spell, cast distract assailant or use the Distracting attack ability that was presented earlier in this thread. There are a lot of options, and ranged sneak attacks largely skip the step where you have to figure out how to make a build move and full attack in the same turn.

Talderas

2012-12-14, 03:21 PM

Distracting Attack:
Specifies it requires a physical Weapon, not a melee attack
Applies to yourself
Causes the next attack against that enemy to consider that enemy as flanked, allowing one to flank at range with themselves only.

It cannot because that situation does not meet the requirements as established by the definition of flank.

flank: To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that she is flanking.

By the definition, a rogue must be meeting all criteria for a flank in order to gain the benefits of sneak attack. By the definition, at least 3 unique characters are required for a flank to occur. You, the Foe, and another character who is threatening the foe (need not be an ally).

Distracting attack overrides two parts of the definition of flank both of which are contained in the first sentence but it doesn't override the need for two unique attackers.

"To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character."

When attacking with a melee or ranged attack, Distracting Attack overrides the need for your ally to be directly on the other side of you. It makes it so it doesn't matter where you are between your ally and the foe. You can stand NE of the foe and your ally to the S and your ally will still gain the benefits of flanking for 1 attack. When attacking with a ranged attack it eliminates the need to threaten the foe which is something you do not do with a bow (unless you have the Arrow Mind spell cast or some other feature which enables you to threaten with a ranged weapon).

eggs

2012-12-14, 04:14 PM

The ability very clearly says the target counts as flanked by you for the purposes of your allies' attacks. Applying that status is exactly what the ability does, regardless of the normal flanking requirements.

That's how D&D abilities work: a Sorcerer with Rapid Metamagic doesn't need extra time to apply metamagic, regardless of the normal rule that would add that time; a Fist of the Forest with Diehard can still move around at -5 HP, despite the normal rule that would forbid it. This is what the "Specific trumps general" phrase refers to.

So when a Ranger/Rogue uses Distracting attack, the damaged target counts as flanked by the ranger.

Then, on the subsequent attack, the target counts as flanked by the ranger. Even humoring for the moment the argument that a character can't flank solo, the status left by Distracting Attack ("considered flanked by you") satisfies the condition for sneak attack ("when the rogue flanks her target") in a very straightforward manner.

I think treating the Ranger as its own ally is a bit sketchy and probably against the writer's intentions, but if that part's accepted (and the rules do support it), the Distracting Attack + Sneak Attack combination should work.

toapat

2012-12-14, 05:56 PM

Alot of arguing back and forth it seems scout is a no go for end game damage output.

I am going to stick with human fighter over ranger.

Whats a good bow option?
And should i do craft arrows and take some kinda caster to make my own arrows?
I dont think money should be an option so would it just be better to buy them.

Also was it settled 100% you cant sneak attack with an arrow?

Only if that Fighter is 1 level of Targetteer taking the Vital Aim class feature, and taking Hand Crossbow proficiency and one other exotic non-thrown proficiency.

Followed immediately by 4 levels of ranger, taking the Distracting Attack ACF

Then going a decent way into rogue, taking Penetrating Strike at third level so that you can sneak attack anything, then you have to decide on whether you just want to optimize sneak attack, by shoveling on PrCs that get +1 sneak attack dice at each level afterwords, or go deep enough into rogue to get the feats.

What Talderas is presenting with his Insane Troll Logic is a situation of General trumps Specific, which is entirely against Rule 1, which is Specific trumps General. You can not get the +2 attack bonus from flanking at range, because the attack bonus is specifically a melee attack bonus. There is nothing in the game that says you do not benefit from the flanked debuff on an opponent at range, only that flanking normally can not be applied at range.

docnessuno

2012-12-14, 05:58 PM

toapat

2012-12-14, 06:04 PM

Actually the rule states that you = ally works in most cases.
In other similar circumstances (IE: White raven tactics) CustServ ruled that you don't count as your own ally.

the Definition for ally already covers that

and White Raven Tactics wouldnt work anyway, as changing your Innitaitive to equal to your current initiative would have no effect.

Because Distracting Attack ACF does not call itself out as excluding yourself from its benefits, even though the example heavily weights it as such, we can not tell whether it is WAI or not, and the example is consistent with examples in the books overal, in that the examples do not help for clarity.

Also there are multiple viable archer builds, so avoid blanket statements like this.

There are builds, but in terms of getting the most out of ranged weapons that are not spawned from your brain, Ranger 4/Targetteer 1/Rogue 3 is an extremely solid foundation for 12 more levels and multiple combat styles of archery.

Otherwise a soulbow will typically be better

Talya

2012-12-14, 06:06 PM

The ability very clearly says the target counts as flanked by you for the purposes of your allies' attacks. Applying that status is exactly what the ability does, regardless of the normal flanking requirements.

Even assuming you get a DM to buy into the idea that distracting attack includes the ranger using it (and good luck with that), the big problem is it only works on a single attack subsequent to hitting them.

So you're a ranger 4/rogue 15/something 1, with BAB of +16/+11/+6/+1. (and that last attack requires picking a full BAB class for the "something 1").

You've got rapid shot.

You make a full attack.

Those first two attacks are most likely to hit. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume those first two at BAB +16. So your first attack resolves normally. You'll get sneak attack damage on your second attack for 8d6. Your next attack may or may not hit, you're at -5 from your BAB for it. If it hits, you get sneak attack damage. If it doesn't, you not only miss out on the sneak attack damage for that attack, but your fourth attack at -10 is also going to miss out on SA damage, if it hits. If it misses, your last attack at -15 cannot get the sneak attack damage at all.

This seriously cuts down on the "fistful of D6s."

Compare that to Ranger 16/scout 4.

Not only do you avoid the problems of precision-immune opponents, but once you arrange a way to move and take multiple attacks in the same round, your 7d6 skirmish applies to every attack you make. Period. You're making the same numbers of attacks -- probably more most of the time, because you have a higher BAB, and hitting with them more often, too -- and you are mobile. Nothing prevents a rogue from using the same move and attack tricks that scout uses, but they're less likely to do so, because it's not essential to their build. Lastly, the ranger (especially Mystic Ranger) has better other class features than Rogue by a longshot, and they're getting skirmish stacking on top of it. If there were a feat similar to swift hunter to stack Rogue sneak attack with ranger favored enemy and let you sneak attack favored enemies regardless of their vulnerability to precision damage, Mystic Ranger 17/Rogue 3 is probably a better build (10d6 sneak attack damage, too), but there is not.

docnessuno

2012-12-14, 06:08 PM

the Definition for ally already covers that
and White Raven Tactics wouldnt work anyway, as changing your Innitaitive to equal to your current initiative would have no effect.

You should read White raven tactics before commenting on it.

Compare that to Ranger 16/scout 4

I personally prefer Ranger 10 / Scout 6 / Fighter 4 (If tageteer is allowed) or Ranger 12-14 / Scout 6-8 (if not)

toapat

2012-12-14, 06:12 PM

You should read White raven tactics before commenting on it.

i dont see how that works at all. White Raven Tactics changes the target ally's innitive to equal your own. This is great if you want to get the rogue another wave of sneak attack, but as far as i can tell, using it on yourself would have no effect.

precision-immune opponents

im sorry, i couldnt hear you over my laughing at how easily i can **** over your entire argument.

You cant swap favored enemies on the fly, Heavy Fortification exists (and is susposed to be Miracles version of the tomes), And there is no Penetrating strike equivalent for Skirmish.

Talya

2012-12-14, 06:15 PM

You should read White raven tactics before commenting on it.

I personally prefer Ranger 10 / Scout 6 / Fighter 4 (If tageteer is allowed) or I personally prefer Ranger 12-14 / Scout 6-8 (if not)

I like as many levels of Mystic Ranger as I can get. Especially if you've got Sword of the Arcane Order as a feat. Moar spell slots, plz. Not to mention continuing favored enemy and skirmish stacking. Mystic Ranger 17/Scout 3 is certainly possible, the question is do I want the feat or the spell slots...

You cant swap favored enemies on the fly, Heavy Fortification exists (and is susposed to be Miracles version of the tomes), And there is no Penetrating strike equivalent for Skirmish.

This isn't even relevant (and it is such an obscure and unlikely scenario that it doesn't begin to balance out the rest of the situation), it doesn't touch the biggest part of my argument.

Even against a regular human opponent, you are not getting your sneak attack more than half the time.

You are getting skirmish on every. Single. Attack. And making more attacks than the rogue.

toapat

2012-12-14, 06:19 PM

I like as many levels of Mystic Ranger as I can get. Especially if you've got Sword of the Arcane Order as a feat. Moar spell slots, plz. Not to mention continuing favored enemy and skirmish stacking.

except that the DM can completely negate Skirmish permanently, because you are relying on enemies who normally dont have crit immunity not having heavy fortification armor. Rogues? They can at least apply sneak attack if they have the ACF to any enemy, regardless of fortification

Talya

2012-12-14, 06:20 PM

except that the DM can completely negate Skirmish permanently, because you are relying on enemies who normally dont have crit immunity not having heavy fortification armor. Rogues? They can at least apply sneak attack if they have the ACF to any enemy, regardless of fortification

Does not happen.

If you're in a war like that with your DM, he's going to win. Most DMs try to find ways to ensure their characters are relevant, not negate them entirely.

Half of an average campaign is going to be against some combination of undead/elementals/constructs (and the occasional plant). There are absolutely zero monster manual entries with heavy fortification.

docnessuno

2012-12-14, 06:21 PM

I like as many levels of Mystic Ranger as I can get. Especially if you've got Sword of the Arcane Order as a feat. Moar spell slots, plz. Not to mention continuing favored enemy and skirmish stacking. Mystic Ranger 17/Scout 3 is certainly possible, the question is do I want the feat or the spell slots...

This isn't even relevant (and it is such an obscure and unlikely scenario that it doesn't begin to balance out the rest of the situation), it doesn't touch the biggest part of my argument.

Even against a regular human opponent, you are not getting your sneak attack more than half the time.

You are getting skirmish on every. Single. Attack. And making more attacks than the rogue.

You still get your maxumum spell level with just 10 mystic rangers level, and flawless stride is quite good.

except that the DM can completely negate Skirmish permanently, because you are relying on enemies who normally dont have crit immunity not having heavy fortification armor.

If my DM wants to constantly throw enemies wearing an armor worth at least 36.150 gp, i'm fine with it. When class levels are not enough wealth is the answer.

toapat

2012-12-14, 06:24 PM

Does not happen.

If you're in a war like that with your DM, he's going to win. Most DMs try to find ways to ensure their characters are relevant, not negate them entirely.

Half of an average campaign is going to be against some combination of undead/elementals/constructs (and the occasional plant). There are absolutely zero monster manual entries with heavy fortification.

thats because heavy fortification is an armor property that does the exact same thing as critical immunity.

eggs

2012-12-14, 06:29 PM

I agree that the "you are your own ally" thing is sketchy here, and the phrasing really makes it look against designer intent, but without any rules-related indication that this is one of the exceptions to the general usage of "ally", I think the rules support it working.

But that said, I'm really not interested in comparing the damage output of Sneak Attackers and Skirmishers. Comparing Craven to Improved Skirmish, sneak attack's dippability to Skirmish's slow progression and the sheer number of items/spells increasing sneak attack damage to the two(?) boosting skirmish, I don't think there's any contest. Even without distracting attack, there are plenty of ways to viably force sneak attack conditions (I don't want to keep reposting them, so I'll just link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0;msg=131156) to the miniguide on the topic in the Assassin handbook).

Talya

2012-12-14, 06:30 PM

thats because heavy fortification is an armor property that does the exact same thing as critical immunity.

Yes, it is. perhaps you missed where I said not a single monster manual entry has armor of this nature?

In any event, if the existence of my special ability makes the DM want to give every single humanoid enemy (most monster manual entries cant or won't wear armor) a minimum +6 armor item, the WBL of the campaign is going to go through the roof.

Comparing Craven to Improved Skirmish, sneak attack's dippability to Skirmish's slow progression

You're talking about a difference of 24.5 skirmish damage vs. about 31 sneak attack damage by level 20. Even 5 damage difference per attack is less than the extra the swift hunter gets against her favored enemies, and not worth dealing with the otherwise inferior chasis the rogue build is based on. The rogue build is less likely to hit (and much of the time have fewer attacks), is going to do less damage against crit immune targets (if anything at all), and overall be a less versatile character. The damage output will be similar, but once you've got a method of movement and full attacking, sneak attack is harder to achieve than skirmishing, and the Swift Hunter will ALWAYS get it, be more durable, more versatile, and just overall stronger.

toapat

2012-12-14, 09:00 PM

the WBL of the campaign is going to go through the roof.

The numbers for WBL dont matter, nor do you actually need to have Heavy Fortification armor. the ability can just be given by Miracle anyway.

eggs

2012-12-14, 10:40 PM

You're talking about a difference of 24.5 skirmish damage vs. about 31 sneak attack damage by level 20.
Craven alone nearly matches the total skirmish damage there.

Considering the additional possible ~6d6 from items, 12d6 from spells, 2d6 from stances, and all the frontloaded +1d6 SA level 1s from various classes (through Halfling Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/SA Fighter 1... kinds of setups), your Sneak Attack estimate is about a third of its normal value on an optimized build. Less if you're really trying to max it.

Skirmish has much less upward potential. There's Hand of the Winged Masters and Unseen Seer for slightly accelerated advancement, maybe dips into Halfling Monk an Highland Stalker, Improved Skirmish for a mere 2d6 and the Rogue's vest for an extra d6. That's not inconsequential damage, but it's much lower than you'd be able to get from SA.

toapat

2012-12-14, 11:20 PM

Craven alone nearly matches the total skirmish damage there.

Considering the additional possible ~6d6 from items, 12d6 from spells, 2d6 from stances, and all the frontloaded +1d6 SA level 1s from various classes (through Halfling Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/SA Fighter 1... kinds of setups), your Sneak Attack estimate is about a third of its normal value on an optimized build. Less if you're really trying to max it.

Skirmish has much less upward potential. There's Hand of the Winged Masters and Unseen Seer for slightly accelerated advancement, maybe dips into Halfling Monk an Highland Stalker, Improved Skirmish for a mere 2d6 and the Rogue's vest for an extra d6. That's not inconsequential damage, but it's much lower than you'd be able to get from SA.

and ive been saying the only reason why i havent thrown together the Sneak attack slurry is because i dont want to do the work, as well as finding the rogue bonus feats at least convenient.

edit: Also, Vital aim is sneak attack, not precision like Deadeye and Crossbow sniper

TuggyNE

2012-12-14, 11:20 PM

the ability can just be given by Miracle anyway.

... wut. Are you genuinely suggesting that a substantial proportion of enemies should be built with the assumption that someone cast miracle on them to grant Heavy Fortification? If this is ever the case, a bit of percussive maintenance on the DM's sense of proportion is in order.

toapat

2012-12-14, 11:28 PM

... wut. Are you genuinely suggesting that a substantial proportion of enemies should be built with the assumption that someone cast miracle on them to grant Heavy Fortification? If this is ever the case, a bit of percussive maintenance on the DM's sense of proportion is in order.

Not so much as the fact that a DM should and does have options with which to render a scout irrelevant. A rogue always will have problems with their range increment.

besides that, enemies last i knew didnt have their NPC WBL invested fully.

Im of the oppinion that Bobthe6th's homebrew of Wealth is not Money, but simply granted, is way better.

absolmorph

2012-12-15, 12:11 AM

The numbers for WBL dont matter, nor do you actually need to have Heavy Fortification armor. the ability can just be given by Miracle anyway.
If things degrade to this point, your character is going to lose because the DM decided to specifically negate what you can do, so your build is irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm inclined to say that Swift Hunter is likely to have more consistently high damage, assuming no precision damage immunity, simply because you can get your precision damage on every attack you make, without relying on arguable ACFs.

Once you get it, Greater Manyshot will make things much easier, since you'll be able to move and get 2-4 attacks off with precision damage on them. So pick it up as soon as you can.

If you pick up Travel Devotion, you'll have 10 rounds where you can move your speed and still have a full-round action, so you can use Rapid Shot and a full attack.

Get a weapon with Splitting ASAP. It either gives each attack another chance to hit so you get precision damage, or you get twice as many attacks with precision damage. I don't remember the exact effects at the moment, and I'm too tired to look it up right now, but I do know you have twice as many arrows flying.

toapat

2012-12-15, 12:39 AM

*snip*

1: No, those ACFs are not arguable. Distracting attack is an edge case only if the DM Follows the letter of the examples over the letter of the rules. RAW vs RAI with that ACF is confusing, but the exact way it works is not.

2: Splitting is, depending on whether it is inconsistently worded or not, either weak for precision damage, or still more powerful for rogue then for Scout.

TypoNinja

2012-12-15, 12:48 AM

If things degrade to this point, your character is going to lose because the DM decided to specifically negate what you can do, so your build is irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm inclined to say that Swift Hunter is likely to have more consistently high damage, assuming no precision damage immunity, simply because you can get your precision damage on every attack you make, without relying on arguable ACFs.

Once you get it, Greater Manyshot will make things much easier, since you'll be able to move and get 2-4 attacks off with precision damage on them. So pick it up as soon as you can.

If you pick up Travel Devotion, you'll have 10 rounds where you can move your speed and still have a full-round action, so you can use Rapid Shot and a full attack.

Get a weapon with Splitting ASAP. It either gives each attack another chance to hit so you get precision damage, or you get twice as many attacks with precision damage. I don't remember the exact effects at the moment, and I'm too tired to look it up right now, but I do know you have twice as many arrows flying.

The Swift Hunters ability to apply skirmish damage to your favored enemies no matter what is really the winner here. Grab the Arcanists ACF at first level, then pick up undead, constructs, plants, elementals, or oozes depending on what you see more of. If your DM rules in your favour on a precision damage transparency you can benefit from things like Truedeath and Demolition weapon crystals and not need to spend favored on those.

Talya

2012-12-15, 12:57 AM

Sneak attack is and always will be an unreliable and weak way to get extra damage. The only real use for rogue is as a trap-finder, and that's replaceable too. The Swift Hunter is a far superior and more reliable way to get damage.

You're talking about a base of 1d6 more for your ranger/rogue. 8d6 instead of 7d6. If course, you're at -3 to hit. And most importantly, as I've mentioned several times, the mystic ranger has those 0-5 levels worth of spells that come in at a very high rate, many of which are specifically designed for archery and very very nice. With the, rogue, all you've got is sneak attack. You're a one trick pony, and you better hope its a trick that's currently working. With the mystic ranger/swift hunter, skirmish is just one of a bunch of very useful things at your disposal -- and even that one trick is easier to enable harder to defend against.

As for Craven? Yeah, 1 more damage per rogue level if you decide to play a whimpering coward. (Yes, that's the actual effect of "Craven." You are no longer playing an archer, you're playing a spineless, opportunistic, lily-livered coward.) I'm kinda reluctant to think that's most people's idea of the ideal ranged warrior. You're not going to be doing much damage while you're panicked and cowering in a corner. (Oh no, you can't wear anything or have any spells against you that make you immune to fear effects, or you no longer qualify for craven. And you're a rogue with a low will save and a further penalty to those saves. You are going to fail them.)

TypoNinja

2012-12-15, 02:06 AM

Sneak attack is and always will be an unreliable and weak way to get extra damage. The only real use for rogue is as a trap-finder, and that's replaceable too. The Swift Hunter is a far superior and more reliable way to get damage.

Scout gets you trapfinding at level 1 and Search is a ranger class skill.

Granted you lose the ability to disarm the traps without picking up disable device as a class skill some other way (like feats), but you can still find the buggers just fine, and honestly, once you know where it is, an adamantine arrow from a safe distance takes care of most traps just fine.

TuggyNE

2012-12-15, 03:03 AM

Scout gets you trapfinding at level 1 and Search is a ranger class skill.

Granted you lose the ability to disarm the traps without picking up disable device as a class skill some other way (like feats), but you can still find the buggers just fine, and honestly, once you know where it is, an adamantine arrow from a safe distance takes care of most traps just fine.

I'm trying to remember whether it was Disable Device or Open Lock that was added to the Scout's class skills by errata. If the former, than the problem is already solved.

TypoNinja

2012-12-15, 04:17 AM

I'm trying to remember whether it was Disable Device or Open Lock that was added to the Scout's class skills by errata. If the former, than the problem is already solved.

I believe it was disable device. And yea, there was a serious oversight, give it trapfinding, but no ability to do anything about the traps it could find.

However if you are going Swift Hunter, you take just enough Scout to qualify, then switch to Ranger. So every time you take Ranger levels disable is still cross class. The errata didn't help much with that.

willpell

2012-12-15, 05:56 AM

Sure, why not.
It's an old joke though.

Ed: On seconds thoughts — I'd prefer that you didn't. It's not my joke originally.

Sigged and then unsigged.

TuggyNE

2012-12-15, 06:17 AM

So every time you take Ranger levels disable is still cross class. The errata didn't help much with that.

True, but an extra skill point per level is not that big a deal on 6+int. (And after all, the cap is level + 3.)

Yuukale

2012-12-15, 06:21 AM

on the matter, why not a swift ambusher (scout/rogue) ?

The problem would be getting to consistently trigger the SA. A ring of blinking and/or Ring of Vanishing could do the trick.

I hope this helps:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28080793/Swift_Ambusher_P.E.A.C.H.?post_id=505295501#505295 501

absolmorph

2012-12-15, 08:02 AM

1: No, those ACFs are not arguable. Distracting attack is an edge case only if the DM Follows the letter of the examples over the letter of the rules. RAW vs RAI with that ACF is confusing, but the exact way it works is not.

2: Splitting is, depending on whether it is inconsistently worded or not, either weak for precision damage, or still more powerful for rogue then for Scout.
1. This thread gives a good example of them being argued.

2. It doesn't actually address precision damage, so I'd say it either gives you 2 opportunities for each attack or gives you twice as many attacks with precision damage. I lean toward the latter interpretation.
And something being a more powerful option for rogues than scouts doesn't mean it's a powerful option for scouts.

toapat

2012-12-15, 10:08 AM

1. This thread gives a good example of them being argued.

2. It doesn't actually address precision damage, so I'd say it either gives you 2 opportunities for each attack or gives you twice as many attacks with precision damage. I lean toward the latter interpretation.
And something being a more powerful option for rogues than scouts doesn't mean it's a powerful option for scouts.

1: The arguments around that ACF were unfounded. IT works, exactly as I expected, so long as you show the DM the definition of Ally and he actually has checked numerous instances of abilities, and understands that you should never observe Examples that are given within the text.

2: I cant find splitting, and it only is good if both arrows have an attack roll, which going off of the typically, they should not. If they do, then rogue is simply better because Sneak attack is better supported then skirmish.

docnessuno

2012-12-15, 10:38 AM

absolmorph

2012-12-15, 11:20 AM

1: The arguments around that ACF were unfounded. IT works, exactly as I expected, so long as you show the DM the definition of Ally and he actually has checked numerous instances of abilities, and understands that you should never observe Examples that are given within the text.

2: I cant find splitting, and it only is good if both arrows have an attack roll, which going off of the typically, they should not. If they do, then rogue is simply better because Sneak attack is better supported then skirmish.

1. I'm dropping this because this isn't actually going anywhere and I don't feel like arguing the point. But I still disagree. I just don't think it matters.

2. Both arrows have an attack roll. It's explicitly stated.
Fighter is better supported than Warblade. Warblade is still better. This is just an example of how "better supported" does not mean better.
I still maintain that skirmish is easier to get than sneak attack, simply because the only thing you need to do is be 10 feet from where you started your turn. There are a lot of ways to do that, and I'm sure I can find a handbook specifically on the subject of getting movement plus a full attack (which you don't need as much with Greater Manyshot, but is still nice).

toapat

2012-12-15, 11:51 AM

No, they are not.
The definition explicitly states that you are treated as your own ally in most cases. Since, as you pointed out, specific trumps general, there wuld have been no reason to include "most" if the DM didn't have to make judgment calls on a case-by-case basis.
And, as i already told you, similar issues have already been ruled in the opposite direction (White raven tactics, wich you still have to read judging from your comments on it).

ok, so i missed a -1. That maneuver would only give you a second turn in a round if multiple people were at your initiative already, and you went before them, or if multiple turns are at your new initiative. If your DM lets you consistantly know withing reason asto the initiative order numbers, then he should stop DMing because he is telling the players too much of the wrong thing.

2. Both arrows have an attack roll. It's explicitly stated.
Fighter is better supported than Warblade. Warblade is still better. This is just an example of how "better supported" does not mean better.
I still maintain that skirmish is easier to get than sneak attack, simply because the only thing you need to do is be 10 feet from where you started your turn. There are a lot of ways to do that, and I'm sure I can find a handbook specifically on the subject of getting movement plus a full attack (which you don't need as much with Greater Manyshot, but is still nice).

As i said, i cant find where splitting is, and im highly inclined to believe it shouldnt have 2 attack rolls, as that is very much not normal for a doubled attack ability.

As far as Supported, actually Fighter is pretty much the worst class for being supported in game of classes that get support. At least monk has some feats to give them semi-useful class features. Fighters dont even get to keep progressing their prestigious "Fighter Class Level" for learning feats outside of fighter. Their few acfs and variants that matter are all in Dragon content, Dungeonscape, or online, and none of those actually make fighter deeper then lvl 6.

besides that, It is much harder to get psionics then dungeonscape or PHB2.

docnessuno

2012-12-15, 11:56 AM

ok, so i missed a -1. That maneuver would only give you a second turn in a round if multiple people were at your initiative already, and you went before them, or if multiple turns are at your new initiative. If your DM lets you consistantly know withing reason asto the initiative order numbers, then he should stop DMing because he is telling the players too much of the wrong thing.

No, that manouver will grant you infinite turns as long as you can refresh it in each of your turn (wich is not that hard to do).

toapat

2012-12-15, 12:48 PM

No, that manouver will grant you infinite turns as long as you can refresh it in each of your turn (wich is not that hard to do).

no, it doesnt.

Example:

Ini: 22 Troll
Ini: 21 Warblade, second roll lower then troll's.

the Warblade smacks the troll, uses white raven tactics on himself. He lowers his initiative by one, and is currently acting, at his newly modified 20 Initiative, and so does not have an additional swift action

Ini: troll 20, Warblade 21 (+1 base)

The warblade goes first, hits the troll, uses WRT, and ends his turn,
Troll attacks ends
Warblade repeats, but does not go again because there is no change in turn order to allow the warblade to go again.

absolmorph

2012-12-15, 12:54 PM

no, it doesnt.

Example:

Ini: 22 Troll
Ini: 21 Warblade, second roll lower then troll's.

the Warblade smacks the troll, uses white raven tactics on himself. He lowers his initiative by one, and is currently acting, at his newly modified 20 Initiative, and so does not have an additional swift action

Ini: troll 20, Warblade 21 (+1 base)

The warblade goes first, hits the troll, uses WRT, and ends his turn,
Troll attacks ends
Warblade repeats, but does not go again because there is no change in turn order to allow the warblade to go again.

"If she has already acted in the current round, she can act again." (ToB 94)
The maneuver specifically provides a new opportunity to act.

eggs

2012-12-15, 01:00 PM

You're talking about a base of 1d6 more for your ranger/rogue. 8d6 instead of 7d6.
I'm not talking about toapat's example build. I'm talking about optimized sneak attack builds in general, like Hunter's Eye-using Unseen Seers, or Assassins - the ones you're completely discounting with this estimate 9d6 sneak attack is all a sneak attacker can muster. The normal hit 90 or so sneak attack damage per attack, and get them reliably.

(Example1: Halfling Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 with a magic tattoo active: 8d6 base SA + 8d6 Hunter's eye + 20 Craven + 5d6 SA from gear = mean 93.5 SA damage; easy access to SA through blinking, invisibility, its familiar or residual effects of control spells like Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Stun Ray or Summons

Example2: Halfling Rogue 3/Monk 2/Assassin 8/Unseen Seer 2/Swordsage 2/Ninja of the Crescent Moon 3: 12d6 base SA + 5d6 from hunter's eye + 20 craven + 5d6 from gear = mean 97 SA damage. Easy SA-forcing with Cloak of Deception, Invisible Fist and chucking alchemical blinding items at low BAs)

Sneak attack is and always will be an unreliable and weak way to get extra damage. ... The Swift Hunter is a far superior and more reliable way to get damage.
This is where your argument is laughable.

If we're comparing archer builds like the above, which make 5-6 attacks for 120ish damage apiece with sneak attack (albeit with a couple hoops to jump through) to a swift hunter that makes similar numbers of attacks and jumps through similar hoops for a third the damage, Sneak Attack looks like "weak" might not do it justice.

As for Craven? Yeah, 1 more damage per rogue level if you decide to play a whimpering coward. (Yes, that's the actual effect of "Craven." You are no longer playing an archer, you're playing a spineless, opportunistic, lily-livered coward.)
You're exaggerating the drawbacks and pretending like no builds like the above (base L20 will saves of +16 and +13 respectively) don't exist. Just casting/UMDing Remove Fear or picking up a Ring of Resolve from Drow of the Underdark will inexpensively suppress fear effects without gaining immunity (ditto for a Banner of the Storm's Eye to constantly negate fear effects without immunity, but it's a bit more expensive and a really weird object for a sneak attacker to wave around). Or you could just find a way to beat the will save (something a build's going to need to do anyway) with maneuvers like Moment of Perfect Mind, save boosters or rerolls.

Craven is a huge damage boost. The mechanical drawbacks are annoying, but that's as bad as they get.

toapat

2012-12-15, 01:15 PM

"If she has already acted in the current round, she can act again." (ToB 94)
The maneuver specifically provides a new opportunity to act.

yes, it does.

Actually, my second example is wrong. (and i finally remembered why being able to hit yourself with WRT is OP but not an Infinite loop)

Turns do not actually themselves have knowledge of what initiative they are.
Thus, when WRT reorganizes the turn order, you are still on your turn, at your new Initiative. If your new initiative would be lower then another creatures at that same initiative, that creature does not get a turn.

Talya

2012-12-15, 02:14 PM

I'm not talking about toapat's example build. I'm talking about optimized sneak attack builds in general, like Hunter's Eye-using Unseen Seers, or Assassins - the ones you're completely discounting with this estimate 9d6 sneak attack is all a sneak attacker can muster. The normal hit 90 or so sneak attack damage per attack, and get them reliably.

(Example1: Halfling Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 with a magic tattoo active: 8d6 base SA + 8d6 Hunter's eye + 20 Craven + 5d6 SA from gear = mean 93.5 SA damage; easy access to SA through blinking, invisibility, its familiar or residual effects of control spells like Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Stun Ray or Summons

Oh, I didn't realize we were talking T.O. cheese. I'm pretty sure we could use pun-pun to get better archery damage than any of them, if nobody's actually expecting to be able to play the characters...

On Craven...even if you can pass the fear saves, you are still roleplaying the most snivelling, cowardly character possible. That's the primary meaning of the craven feat -- you are playing someone with an utter and complete lack of courage. Honestly, if I'm DMing and a character with that feat ever seeks out danger, I'm going to have issues with them.

eggs

2012-12-15, 02:32 PM

If your response to seeing contradictory evidence to your own stance is to call the builds TO and to single them out for DM bullying, I think we're done here.

docnessuno

2012-12-15, 02:44 PM

If your response to seeing contradictory evidence to your own stance is to call the builds TO and to single them out for DM bullying, I think we're done here.

20ish d6 SA is definitly not TO, but i think we can agree is High-OP, and the rest of the discussion revolved around Mid-OP.

toapat

2012-12-15, 03:11 PM

20ish d6 SA is definitly not TO, but i think we can agree is High-OP, and the rest of the discussion revolved around Mid-OP.

There is a middle ground for the optimization. i would say my build is probably on the low end of the optimizing for ranged damage, with the actual op being slightly higher then the "Swift Hunter "I can pown anything i want, so long as the DM doesnt decide im being an ass"", because at least my build can be useful outside of its microcosm of specialization.

He at that is using a full progression in Unseen Seer, which looses you sneak attack over a full progression of Arcane Trickster, although im not going to go through the work to figure out how hard it is to get a 5th level wizard through all of that. (6 skills need to have 7-8 ranks in the time you are given, as well as 4 ranks in 3 others.)

Talya

2012-12-15, 03:23 PM

There is a middle ground for the optimization. i would say my build is probably on the low end of the optimizing for ranged damage, with the actual op being slightly higher then the "Swift Hunter "I can pown anything i want, so long as the DM doesnt decide im being an ass"", because at least my build can be useful outside of its microcosm of specialization.

Except that's the opposite of what happened. Your build can do one thing: 8d6 sneak attack damage to some enemies, and half that to other enemies. It can't actually do anything else.

My build does 7d6 sneak attack damage to everything in all situations, and an extra +2 - +8 to favored enemies (which can, if you choose, include all arcane spellcasters, and EVERYTHING with an evil alignment or evil aura/descriptor). and is actually useful in many other ways as well. It has a lot of spell slots from levels 0-5, a caster level of of either 16 or 20, the ability to fill those slots with both ranger and wizard spells. It has almost as many skill points as yours, is more durable, has better saves, higher attack bonuses, and is more mobile.

I'm not seeing where yours is more versatile there...ever.

toapat

2012-12-15, 04:00 PM

Except that's the opposite of what happened. Your build can do one thing: 8d6 sneak attack damage to some enemies, and half that to other enemies. It can't actually do anything else.

My build does 7d6 sneak attack damage to everything in all situations, and an extra +2 - +8 to favored enemies (which can, if you choose, include all arcane spellcasters, and EVERYTHING with an evil alignment or evil aura/descriptor). and is actually useful in many other ways as well. It has a lot of spell slots from levels 0-5, a caster level of of either 16 or 20, the ability to fill those slots with both ranger and wizard spells. It has almost as many skill points as yours, is more durable, has better saves, higher attack bonuses, and is more mobile.

I'm not seeing where yours is more versatile there...ever.

Except that you have many things that qualify as either cheese or counter-optimization:

A class which is T4 for most of its carreer, while being even less effective at the same things as a rogue, and 4 levels of T1 because you happen to get Celerity on time. Your spell list is just 5 levels of Wizard. You outright are throwing out the half of what redeems mystic ranger upfront for investment in the weakest form of combat in the game, and are relying on the setting being Faerun, The DM being a pushover, as well as allowing both Dragon Magazine and Psionics. Half your investment is in feats that do not directly improve your ability to reduce the enemy to pulp. and you need a solid investment in 4 attributes

my build in total relies on the DM being polite enough to read an ability straight, and allowing PHB2 and Dungeonscape. both of which are books which are primarily for balancing classes out. Dragon 310+compendium improve the build, and pretty much every splatbook provides a dip somewhere.