3.5 - What's up with bears? And Improved Grab in general?

[Jon_Dahl]

As a DM, I find "Improved Grab" special ability very strange.

Yesterday my players encountered a dire bear. It successfully hit and grappled with its claw attack. During the following round it made a grapple check to attack with its claw attack.

This made very little sense to me and my players were confused: The bear had him grappled and... just tickled him with ONE paw per round? I let the bear grapple the PC with -20 penalty and use her remaining attacks without penalty against other PCs. So the bear had been attacking with all its might and each successful grapple check meant one claw attack. Then it used only one of its paws to grapple the PC and each successful grapple check meant one claw attack.

We were all so baffled by this that we are agreed that when grappling committedly against a single opponent, the bear inflicts two claw attacks per successful grapple. One of my players was asking why doesn't the bear bite in grapple, but I had absolutely no idea what to answer.

It seems that Improved Grab makes opponents incredibly weak. Instead of REALLY attacking its opponents, it just jams in a non-effective hassle and most probably dies. Usually, if the players win the grapple checks and the 'Improved Grabber' can really attack with all of its attacks without grappling, it becomes significantly deadlier.

[mirror]

Having +9 BAB, bear can attack with 2 natural attacks while grappling.

[tyckspoon]

It seems that Improved Grab makes opponents incredibly weak. Instead of REALLY attacking its opponents, it just jams in a non-effective hassle and most probably dies. Usually, if the players win the grapple checks and the 'Improved Grabber' can really attack with all of its attacks without grappling, it becomes significantly deadlier.

You aren't *required* to use the grapple opportunity granted by Improved Grab, and if you are fighting multiple opponents you probably are better off not using it, thanks to the restrictions grappling places on you. Although the animals that often have it may not be smart enough to realize this and will Grab anyway, since that's how they normally beat things.

As for the bear seeming too weak against its grappled foe.. check out Improved Grab again. Specifically, this bit:

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Instead of attacking with a claw, use the 'Grapple to do damage' option. Then the Bear gets to use its higher Grapple score instead of its to-hit roll (+23 versus +15 for attacking with a weapon in a grapple) and deals unarmed strike plus claw damage.. which would be d4 + Strength non-lethal plus 2d4 + Strength lethal. And it's an 'instead of attack' option, which means it can do it at BAB rate, or twice per round if it dedicates its actions to crushing one victim. Much more dangerous than Grabbing somebody and then trying to swat them with the other claw.

[Planar]

Please read the description of Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab). Bear can grapple one target with one claw with -20 penalty and otherwise fight normally without being considered grappled. Target it is grappling though does not threaten squares, loses Dex to AC, cannot move and has difficulty while casting a spell, AND you deal your normal claw damage each round with your superior grapple check modifier instead of your normal attack bonus.

If there were no other opponents within reach, I would allow the bear to attack the creature it is grappling with its other claw and bite attack, but the rules seem a bit ambiguous about it.


Having +9 BAB, bear can attack with 2 natural attacks while grappling.

High BAB does not give multiple attacks with natural weapons.


Instead of attacking with a claw, use the 'Grapple to do damage' option. Then the Bear gets to use its higher Grapple score instead of its to-hit roll (+23 versus +15 for attacking with a weapon in a grapple) and deals unarmed strike plus claw damage.. which would be d4 + Strength non-lethal plus 2d4 + Strength lethal. And it's an 'instead of attack' option, which means it can do it at BAB rate, or twice per round if it dedicates its actions to crushing one victim. Much more dangerous than Grabbing somebody and then trying to swat them with the other claw.

Again, high BAB does not give multiple attacks, also while grappling via Improved Grab you deal your normal claw damage each round with successful grapple check, not unarmed damage plus claw; a creature with natural weapons does not have an unarmed attack.

[hymer]

Suppose you do away with grappling alltogether (shocking idea, I know). What sort of boost should bears and other improved grabbers get to compensate, in order to stay on the same CR?

[Eldariel]

Again, high BAB does not give multiple attacks, also while grappling via Improved Grab you deal your normal claw damage each round with successful grapple check, not unarmed damage plus claw; a creature with natural weapons does not have an unarmed attack.

Neither is technically correct; all creatures have an unarmed strike which basically amounts to attacking with the rest of the body (though e.g. animals basically never use it since their natural weapons are just better).

Likewise, every creature with high BAB does have iteratives and while you can't normally use iteratives with natural weapons (outside Rapid Strike at any rate), the option of doing iterative grapple-checks to damage your opponent still exist.


But yeah, Grapple doesn't make an awful lot of sense in general; I'd just allow 'em to use all their natural weapons in the grapple 'cause hell, that's kinda why they grapple in the first place. But that'd of course be a houserule (well, they can of course establish the -20 improved grab and then full attack the grabbed target but ehh).

[Planar]

Neither is technically correct; all creatures have an unarmed strike which basically amounts to attacking with the rest of the body (though e.g. animals basically never use it since their natural weapons are just better).

Likewise, every creature with high BAB does have iteratives and while you can't normally use iteratives with natural weapons (outside Rapid Strike at any rate), the option of doing iterative grapple-checks to damage your opponent still exist.


I don't think that is true. If all creatures had an unarmed attack for high BAB regardless of their natural weapons this would be shown in their statistics block. This also means they can't use they cannot choose to deal normal unarmed damage while grappling.

[Eldariel]

I don't think that is true. If all creatures had an unarmed attack for high BAB regardless of their natural weapons this would be shown in their statistics block. This also means they can't use they cannot choose to deal normal unarmed damage while grappling.

Uh, no, Unarmed Strikes aren't listed for any creature. All creatures have them anyways. Only creatures with somehow improved unarmed strikes (e.g. the feat or Monk levels) are marked, but bog-standard everything has them (base 1d3 Medium category damage).

However, due to Improved Grab, the iterative Grapple-checks to damage the opponent deal the Claw damage, not the Unarmed Strike damage (which would be 1d6 for an untrained Huge creature). Basically, 9 BAB gives them two Grapple-checks to deal damage and it can take any of the normal Grapple-options with those but if it Grapples to deal damage it deals Claw damage instead of Unarmed Strike damage as per Improved Grab.


EDIT: Few relevant Rules Compendium quotes:
UNARMED ATTACKS
Striking with punches and kicks is like attacking with a melee weapon, except that such attacks usually provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe you attack, provided that opponent is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed creature can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Natural Weapons
A creature that has a natural weapon, such as a claw or slam, is considered armed. It can make unarmed attacks, but it can’t use its natural weapons as if they were unarmed attacks, nor can it apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its natural weapons.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character who has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, and a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell all count as armed. Being armed in this way counts for both offense and defense. So a creature armed in this way can make attacks of opportunity, and such a creature doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking.
(The act of casting a spell provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.)

Improved Grab
If a creature that has this extraordinary special attack hits with a natural melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. No initial melee touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.
When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent.
If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but it isn’t considered grappled itself. Thus, the creature isn’t denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.
Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab. If the creature also has the constrict ability, it deals damage from the constrict attack in addition to damage dealt by the natural weapon used to grab.

[Planar]

Uh, no, Unarmed Strikes aren't listed for any creature. All creatures have them anyways. Only creatures with somehow improved unarmed strikes (e.g. the feat or Monk levels) are marked, but bog-standard everything has them (base 1d3 Medium category damage).

However, due to Improved Grab, the iterative Grapple-checks to damage the opponent deal the Claw damage, not the Unarmed Strike damage (which would be 1d6 for an untrained Huge creature). Basically, 9 BAB gives them two Grapple-checks to deal damage and it can take any of the normal Grapple-options with those but if it Grapples to deal damage it deals Claw damage instead of Unarmed Strike damage as per Improved Grab.

What are you basing this on? I might accept this as a house rule but right now it has no support whatsoever ruleswise.

Think about it; if you are right, any creature with high BAB and Int greater than 3 can take Improved Unarmed Strike and get extra iterative attacks in addition to their natural weapon attacks.

[Eldariel]

What are you basing this on? I might accept this as a house rule but right now it has no support whatsoever ruleswise.

Think about it; if you are right, any creature with high BAB and Int greater than 3 can take Improved Unarmed Strike and get extra iterative attacks in addition to their natural weapon attacks.

I added few relevant Rules Compendium quotes to my last post. It's worth noting that the SRD entry on Unarmed Strikes. It's worth noting that nowhere ever has anything mentioned some creature being unable to execute Unarmed Strike. I'd rather like to ask you for a rules quote that supports a creature not having an UA Strike.

[Planar]

I added few relevant Rules Compendium quotes to my last post. It's worth noting that the SRD entry on Unarmed Strikes. It's worth noting that nowhere ever has anything mentioned some creature being unable to execute Unarmed Strike. I'd rather like to ask you for a rules quote that supports a creature not having an UA Strike.

OK, I was wrong about creatures with natural weapons not being able to make unarmed attacks.

About creatures making multiple attacks in grapple, bold part must make it clear;

Rules Compendium p.60


Regardless of who started the grapple, while you’re grappling, you can perform only the following maneuvers. Some maneuvers (as indicated in the following text) can be performed in place of an attack. If you can make multiple attacks because of a high base attack bonus, you can perform as many of one of these maneuvers as you have attacks. You can choose the same or a different maneuver for each attack.

A creature that has a high enough base attack bonus can use a fullround action to make a grapple check for every extra attack its base attack bonus would allow it if it were a character. That means such a creature can make two grapple checks if its base attack bonus is +6 to +10, three if +11 to +15, and four if +16 or higher.

...

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with unarmed strike, a natural weapon, or a light weapon against a creature you’re grappling. You take a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

A creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling, unless it has a special ability that allows it to do otherwise or its description provides an exception. This attack is usually made with the creature’s primary natural weapon.

[Cog]

Rules Compendium p.60
You bolded the wrong bit; the suggestion isn't to make attacks with the natural weapons, which your bolded paragraph covers. The relevant bit is in your second quoted paragraph; a bear has a high enough BAB to allow iterative attacks, and therefore is allowed multiple grapple checks. It simply also has an ability that allows it to add claw damage to the grapple checks to which it was already entitled.

[Planar]

You bolded the wrong bit; the suggestion isn't to make attacks with the natural weapons, which your bolded paragraph covers. The relevant bit is in your second quoted paragraph; a bear has a high enough BAB to allow iterative attacks, and therefore is allowed multiple grapple checks. It simply also has an ability that allows it to add claw damage to the grapple checks to which it was already entitled.

It's a general statement vs specific. The second paragraph explains what happens while grappling when you have a high BAB. The part I bolded is about grappling with creatures with natural weapons.

[Cog]

Except that you're quoting the Attack Your Opponent grapple maneuver. The bear in question is using an entirely different maneuver, Damage Your Opponent. The generic grapple rules apply to all grapples, and so apply to Damage Your Opponent; the text in Attack Your Opponent is more specific, but it's specific to something that the bear isn't doing.

[Planar]

Okay, I admit defeat. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) Part about Monsters and Grappling summarizes what we are arguing about.

I have to say, I never witnessed such use of grapple in any of my games, and I reserve the right to say they are stupid.:smallannoyed:

[Cog]

I have to say, I never witnessed such use of grapple in any of my games, and I reserve the right to say they are stupid.:smallannoyed:
If it makes you feel any better, grappling rules could be even worse. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html)

[Togo]

Grappling is almost universally less dangerous, in terms of hp damage, than just attacking.

What it does is stop an opponent getting away, or changing opponents, and greatly reduce his ability to hit you. Generally speaking, grappling an opponent hinder you and him, but it hinders him a lot more.

Because of this, one big creature with imp grab may be a less challenging encounter than three or so smaller ones. Grappling is a spoiler attack, and if most of your opponents are uneffected, it won't do you many favours.