ToB Classes for Ranged combatants?

[Monodominant]

Hello,

I am looking to make a potent rangerd (ala Robin Hood) character and the DM has allowed access to ToB for the first time in our campaigns.

In the past I was not overly concerned with optimisation so I was using a simple ranger/order of the bow initiate type character for my ranged needs...

I was wondering if there is any material for ToB classes (mainly swordsage and warblade) that focuses on ranged attacks. Most maneuvers I see in the book are all melee based and mention melee attacks etc.

In general, if the above is NOT working could anyone give suggestions on how to make a somewhat optimised 15th level gestalt archer-type character? A few levels of rogue/skill monkey would also not hurt but the main concept is a tracker/ranger vagabond kind of fellow.

[Pilo]

Wood Elf Ranger9/Scout6//Beguiler6/Arcane Archer9

Beguiler list has nice control for a ranged fighter like Legion of sentinel, Silence, improved invisibility, mirror image...

[ngilop]

There are 2 ways you cna go about having ranged martial Maneuvers

1) use any of the hombrewed disciplines from GiTP
2) just hand wave the melee only bs restriction for the ToB maneuvers and allow them to be used with ranged.


I do the 2nd one Wizards tried to give mundane nice things but ended up making it that melee got some nice stuff and archers got shafted,

[shadow_archmagi]

You can also try to make do using the existing maneuver list for utility. Shadow Jaunt, Sudden Leap, etc. Maybe pick up that Shadow stance that gives you a concealment for moving, along with some Scout levels that give you a damage bonus for moving, use the concealment to Hide and then make Sneak-Skirmish attacks. There should be a decent number of manuevers in the book that only take swift or move actions and offer useful effects.

Maybe take that Kalashtar feat that lets you fight defensively, and then power attack with a to-hit bonus equal to the defensive fighting penalty you took, then take Bloodbladeblood prestige or something something (It's been too long since I played this game) so that your ranged attacks count as melee, then take Master Thrower to power attack with ten knives....

[Planar]

ToB classes were not designed with ranged combat in mind; Swordsage and Warblade are not even proficient with ranged martial weapons.

Bloodstorm Blade is to go prestige class for ranged combat in ToB but it utilizes thrown weapons not archery.

If you are set on using ToB, one side of your gestalt can be a swordsage/warblade multiclass mainly focusing on maneuvers/stances that boost saves and provide utility such as scent, climb speed, tactical teleport, blindsense etc.

[Morph Bark]

ToB classes were not designed with ranged combat in mind; Swordsage and Warblade are not even proficient with ranged martial weapons.

Bloodstorm Blade is to go prestige class for ranged combat in ToB but it utilizes thrown weapons not archery.

This, basically. If you want ToB-based archery, you'll have to dig into homebrew classes and disciplines, of which the Homebrew Tier Compendium has a bunch.

[Talya]

Some maneuvers (particularly boosts and stances) will work with ranged weapons. But you aren't proficient with bows unless you take the proficiency or play an elf.

Fax Celestis posted a homebrew "Falling Star" discipline which is wonderful.

I built a Goliath Ranger/Swordsage once. Used a large-sized composite greatbow (exotic - I know, not worth a feat, normally. I just wanted to be firing arrows the size of fenceposts) for 2d8+6 strength damage, and pumped wisdom and zzen archery (synergizing nicely with swordsage, too). It would have been fairly effective. Then I discovered Falling Star as I finished building her, and she was awesome.

[Darrin]

My notes on Ranged Swordsages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11918094&postcount=16).

...which I cribbed heavily for my notes on Ranged ToB for Warblades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420).

...and let's not forget Crusaders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12450184&postcount=3).

[Psyren]

I do the 2nd one Wizards tried to give mundane nice things but ended up making it that melee got some nice stuff and archers got shafted

I see what you did there :smalltongue:



In general, if the above is NOT working could anyone give suggestions on how to make a somewhat optimised 15th level gestalt archer-type character? A few levels of rogue/skill monkey would also not hurt but the main concept is a tracker/ranger vagabond kind of fellow.

Soulbow // Psywar will make you a powerful (and wis-focused) archer with little fuss. If you stagger the levels right, you'll get a ton of bonus feats, which you'll need as many of as possible for decent archery.

[Monodominant]

The falling star looks very nice and the DM approved it...

Do you think a Warblade (with falling star) 15 / Rogue 15 is a good combo? It would fit my idea of skill monkey with ability to use some magic via UMD and add sneak attack goodness to all the maneuver attacks while keeping a clear martial focus via Warblade...

Psionics are our due to personal preference and DM decision...

Perhaps a few levels of Ranger instead of full rogue?

[Keld Denar]

I'd go Swift Hunter on the non Warblade side. You generally can't full attack with non-boost Falling Star maneuvers, so move + strike is good. Skirmish is easier to enable than SA, and Swift Hunter can punch through precision immunity. Plus, Ranger spells aren't half bad if you have access to SpC, PHBII, and Champions of Ruin.

[Talya]

I'd go Swift Hunter on the non Warblade side. You generally can't full attack with non-boost Falling Star maneuvers, so move + strike is good. Skirmish is easier to enable than SA, and Swift Hunter can punch through precision immunity. Plus, Ranger spells aren't half bad if you have access to SpC, PHBII, and Champions of Ruin.


Warblade 20 using falling star//Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 4 with swift hunter and sword of the arcane order.

[toapat]

The falling star looks very nice and the DM approved it...

Do you think a Warblade (with falling star) 15 / Rogue 15 is a good combo? It would fit my idea of skill monkey with ability to use some magic via UMD and add sneak attack goodness to all the maneuver attacks while keeping a clear martial focus via Warblade...

Psionics are our due to personal preference and DM decision...

Perhaps a few levels of Ranger instead of full rogue?

4 Levels of ranger, then the rest rogue on one side. People who say scout = Good archer need to look a bit harder, Ranger has a varient that sells the animal companion for the ability to force flanking on ANYTHING that can be flanked, with any attack.

basically, this is your build:

Heavy Weapons Elf (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29415303/) 20 // Distracting Attack Ranger 4/Rogue 16

[Metahuman1]

I'm just gonna throw in a suggestion of Factotum 1/ Bard x/ Seeker of the song 2/ Bard X//Warblade 20.

Pick up a white raven stance to use to activate your bardic music. Pick up travel devotion for swift action movement, and able learner to be able to keep all skills as class skills.

From there, optimize Inspire courage and pick up some diamond mind and Tiger Claw stuff, cause Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose on a ranged attacker is awesome. Maybe grab improved Unarmed Strike and Knowledge Devotion, since those will further help your ranged attacks and give you a low investment emergency melee option.

Added Benefit, You don't have a range limit on your bonus damage. And if you get Sonic or Force Damage form Dragon Fire Inspiration, your unlikely to see much immunity or resistance to that damage.

Oh, and one last thing, if you can get Either Ritual of Blood or Faerie Mysteries Initiate, you can drop con. I like Ritual of Blood + Charming the arrow myself with Force of Personality myself, makes Str a secondary stat and Cha the Primary, and allows a dump on Con and Dex and Wis, with int in a firm third place on the priority list.

And of course, the build gives bard spell casting and plenty of skills, so you should be able to do more then just shoot things.

[Talya]

4 Levels of ranger, then the rest rogue on one side. People who say scout = Good archer need to look a bit harder, Ranger has a varient that sells the animal companion for the ability to force flanking on ANYTHING that can be flanked, with any attack.



That ranger ACP doesn't work the way you think it does. It's not a bad alternate class feature, all the same, but...

Beginning at 4th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjudicating your allies attacks....This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first.

So, most DMs are not going to allow it to work for the ranger himself, but her "allies." If you get one that decides you are your own ally, that means you're not flanking for your first attack every round, or any time after you have missed your target.

Since there are several ways to get full attacks and movement together (easy for a warblade), and Swift Hunter also allows you to use precision damage on normally immune targets, I'll take the 7d6 skirmish damage over 8d6 sneak attack damage any day.

[Larkas]

If you're not averse to homebrew, I strongly recommend this Sublime Way variant Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger) and the accompanying Falling Star discipline (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527602/Falling_Star_style:_the_Tenth_Path_of_the_Sublime_ Way) (not the same as Fax Celetis', don't know which is best).

[eggs]

the accompanying Falling Star discipline (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527602/Falling_Star_style:_the_Tenth_Path_of_the_Sublime_ Way)
TS didn't get the whole thing up, and I remember that thread being frustrating to search for the omissions.

So it might be worth mentioning that Edea's complete Falling Star discipline is posted here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=143886).

[Larkas]

So it might be worth mentioning that Edea's complete Falling Star discipline is posted here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=143886).

NICE! Didn't know about that, thanks a lot for the link!

[Talya]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) is Fax's.

[toapat]

That ranger ACP doesn't work the way you think it does. It's not a bad alternate class feature, all the same, but...

actually, it does.

Distracting Attack says Allies, it doesnt actually exclude yourself. it just reads as though it does

[HunterOfJello]

Tome of Battle has a Robin Hood-esque, bow-wielding pre-built npc based on on its 19th page. He's even given the title "champion of the downtrodden" ! This book obviously has support for ranged characters!

[Talya]

actually, it does.

Distracting Attack says Allies, it doesnt actually exclude yourself. it just reads as though it does

You may wish to read my post.


So, most DMs are not going to allow it to work for the ranger himself, but her "allies." If you get one that decides you are your own ally, that means you're not flanking for your first attack every round, or any time after you have missed your target.

Either way, it doesn't work the way you want it too. Skirmish you get on every attack in a round.

If you've got ranger 4 and rogue 16, as you said, you've got 8d6 sneak attack dice, that don't apply against creatures immune to precision damage, and only after you've already hit your target immediately before. On your opening attack, or on any attack after you miss your target, you get nothing. If you've got ranger 16, scout 4, you get 7d6 skirmish damage on every single attack. (Not to mention better class features.) All you have to do is find a way to make multiple attacks and move at the same time.

[toapat]

You may wish to read my post.

the combination of excessive dex to damage, Ranged Touch attacks, and a bonus to your Attacks suggests that hitting wouldnt be much of a problem, although no sane DM will ever give you the "AC is irrelevant" RAW wording of IPS

[JaronK]

Warblades are actually amazing archers, specializing in crossbows. You need to get proficiency of course (Targeteer Fighter 2 is a solid dip to start out), and you'll want Aptitude cheese to make it good (Hand Crossbow Mastery from Drow of the Underdark + Aptitude Great Crossbow is a solid start). Combine Blood in the Water with various maneuvers that work with ranged attacks (White Raven Tactics, Raging Mongoose, etc) and critical increasers (Improved Critical) for serious damage output.

Without aptitude, you'd have to use hand crossbows, which reduces the bonus but they're still decent.

For enchantments, Splitting is the most important thing. Combined with Rapid Shot and other attack boosters and you should be able to fire a heck of a lot of shots.

The main idea is to get as many crits as possible while letting Blood in the Water send your damage up as fast as possible.

JaronK

[Talderas]

4 Levels of ranger, then the rest rogue on one side. People who say scout = Good archer need to look a bit harder, Ranger has a varient that sells the animal companion for the ability to force flanking on ANYTHING that can be flanked, with any attack.

basically, this is your build:

Heavy Weapons Elf (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29415303/) 20 // Distracting Attack Ranger 4/Rogue 16

Ranger 4/Rogue 16 doesn't stack with itself for the purpose of gaining sneak attack.

Distracting Shot does not work as you think it works. Flanking is a bonus only given to melee attacks. Ranged attacks, unless otherwise specified, do not get flanking bonuses. The Whisperknife PrC out of Races of the Wild just treats you as using a reach weapon for the purposes of flanking and doesn't give you a true ranged flank. Beyond that, the ability only treats the foe as flanked by you, it doesn't grant you the flanking status.

Scout is phenomenal for archers because of mounted archery. You go Ranger 1/Scout 19 and try to pick up Swift Hunter. Then you take favored enemy undead, constructs, basically anything that is normally immune to precision damage so that your skirmish is effective against them via Swift Hunter. You use mounted archer since your mount moves on your turn but takes its own actions independent of your own which permits you to make a full attack action as an archer while your mount is double moving (120ft movement for a light warhorse) or running (300ft movement for a light warhorse). With the Improved Mounted Archery feat you suffer no penalty when the mount is double moving and only a -2 while it's running.

[Monodominant]

Hello,

Okay so I have decided on the Ranger 4/ Rogue 11 // Swordsage 15 class basis.

I am a bit confused in regards to that super special bow (Energy bow from the web extract). When using its own arrows (2d6+Str bonus) it mentions that as they are force they can affect incorporeal creatures. It does not mention though how they interact with DR. There is a weapon ability in MIC that makes your projectiles into Force attacks which means they auto ignore DR. Would the same apply for this bow?

On a side note and regarding precision damage immune foes I have been considering the True Death greater weapon crystal from MIC. That way undead would still suffer from sneak attacks etc. Is there something equivalent for constructs?

[toapat]

Okay so I have decided on the Ranger 4/ Rogue 11 // Swordsage 15 class basis.

On a side note and regarding precision damage immune foes I have been considering the True Death greater weapon crystal from MIC. That way undead would still suffer from sneak attacks etc. Is there something equivalent for constructs?

Although a Truedeath crystal is nice, actually you should look at the Penetrating Strike ACF (dungeonscape) for rogue, although it costs you trapsense entirely, it lets you apply half your sneak attack damage no matter what. Combined with Craven, that gets you good damage regardless of what the DM does.

Warblade was sugested more then swordsage because of the ability to get alot of dex to damage, as well as the fact that they are an int class instead of wisdom

@Taldderas:

No, flanking normally requires melee combatants, and the attack bonus only applies to melee, although a flanked opponent is vunlerable to sneak attack. Distracting attack causes your target to be flanked by everything. You cant rely on Swift Hunter when the DM can just start putting you against enemies you dont have a favored enemy against with Permananced Miracle - Heavy Fortification.

[Darrin]

It does not mention though how they interact with DR. There is a weapon ability in MIC that makes your projectiles into Force attacks which means they auto ignore DR. Would the same apply for this bow?


No idea. We were still arguing about it just last month (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261043).

Briefly: "Force" is not formally identified in 3.5 as one of the five energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic. However, most force effects are the result of spells, which automatically bypass DR because they are, well, spells. There are at least three magic items that produce projectiles with a force effect:

Force property (MIC): bypasses DR because it says it darned well says it does.
Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC): doesn't mention DR.
Hank's Energy Bow (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)): the Animated Series Handbook included a simplified scenario that did not include DR, so odds are good the designers either didn't think it was important or just forgot to mention it.

So it really boils down to a DM call. Either that or you have to resort to something like, magic items that produce spell effects are treated as spells, if an effect isn't exactly like a spell then you use whatever the required spell is in the description or the nearest spell with a similar effect. In that case, both the Gloves of Endless Javelins and Hank's Energy Bow reference magic missile, so you'd treat their effects as magic missile... which, when cast as a spell, bypasses DR. Unless you consider the force projectiles to be the equivalent of weapon damage (made out of a special material, such as riverine), and then DR would still apply. So... ask your DM.

[Talya]

Apart from Mystic Ranger/Scout outdamaging Ranger/Rogue with ranged, there's the other factor:

Rogue doesn't have any good class features other than Sneak Attack. Scout doesn't have the best features either, but you're not using scout as your primary class on a Swft hunter, you're using ranger. Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 4 nets you the ranger class abilities AND the rather impressive Mystic Ranger spellcasting.

[toapat]

Apart from Mystic Ranger/Scout outdamaging Ranger/Rogue with ranged, there's the other factor:

Rogue doesn't have any good class features other than Sneak Attack. Scout doesn't have the best features either, but you're not using scout as your primary class on a Swft hunter, you're using ranger. Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 4 nets you the ranger class abilities AND the rather impressive Mystic Ranger spellcasting.

Except that you will only ever really use mystic ranger to make wizardshape Druid

[Morph Bark]

However, most force effects are the result of spells, which automatically bypass DR because they are, well, spells.

Except DR does apply to spells that specify a damage type the DR would block (bludgeoning, piercing or slashing).

Force is just... weird.

[Talionis]

Here is a post Carnivore did, its pretty good at showing what will and won't work without having to go into Homebrew:

look here:

http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-831418

in case it is lost .... here it is:

quote= Nadaka
"04-18-07, 03:18 AM
Warblade archery build, required material: Core, PHB2, ToB, CW, I think thats all.

Human warblade 20, 32 point buy (its what I use in my campaigns)
Str 14 +6 item = 20
Dex 18 +5 levels +6 item +1 tome = 30
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats
1: EWP Composite Great Bow, Point Blank Shot
3: rapid shot
5: bonus Improved initiative
6: weapon focus: GB
9: weapon specialization: GB
9: bonus blind fight
12: ranged weapon mastery: GB
13: quickdraw
15: Greater weapon focus: GB
17: diehard
18: Greater weapon specialization: GB

Stances: blood in the water, stone foot stance, giants stance, hearing the air

Maneuvers
1: Moment of perfect mind, sudden leap, stone bones, 1

2: Action before thought

3: mind over body

4: fountain of blood

5: dancing mongoose

6: boulder roll

7: quick silver motion

8: raging mongoose

9: Time stands still, diamond defence

Upgrade stonebones and unneeded maneuver as needed. quick silver motion isn't 100% needed, it can be exchanged for Iron Heart surge if the unused maneuver is also iron heart.

Weapons and ammo.
MW composite greatbow +5 str 1510 gp
+5 flaming shock frost acidic 162k gp
bracers of greater archery 25k gp
item of haste

unmodified attacks
Attack 20 BAB + 10 dex +5 magic +1 PBS +1 wf +1 gwf +2 rwm +2 boga + 1 haste = +43
damage = 1d10 +4d6 elemental +5 str +5 magic +1 PBS +2 ws +2 gws +2 rwm +1 boga = 1d10+18 +4d6

Stances: Giants stance + blood in the water. Giants stance treats my damage as one size category larger, bloodin the water gives me +1 to hit and damage for every critical hit with a few limitations. These are the only offensive stances that work well with ranged weapons unfortunately.

This boosts my damage to 2d8+4d6+18 at +42 to hit with a conditional +1 to +X from blood in the water where X is the number of critical hits I have made since BitW was activated (though I loose the bonus if I don't critically hit for 1 minute).

The attack sequence is Raging Mongoose then Time stands still in the first round, and then a full attack with dancing mongoose in the second, then a full attack + swift action in the third to recover.

So i get
r1: 2 attacks at +43, then 2 full round attacks with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)x2
r2: 1 attack at +43, then 1 full round attack with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)
r3: rapid recovery then 1 full round attack with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)

Against a defence 27 or less target I am hitting 95% on 14 attacks at ~41 damage per hit in round one for an average damage of 545.3 in round 1, 272.65 in round 2 and 233.7 in round 3. Then I can repeat as needed for 350.55 damage per round.

Another option is to skip the second round for an average damage of 389.5 per round.

None of this is counting critical hits, and with that the math gets a bit tricky...
there is a 5% chance on each hit to crit for a 4.75% chance of +~54 damage for +2.565 damage per attack. that gives me +35.91 in r1, +17.955 in r2 and 15.39 in r3. Except that each crit increases the damage as well. And I just don't feal like doing that math.

Also note that by taking 1 level of fighter I loose only one of my defensive maneuver slots, 1 hp, but gain 1 or 2 (if droping the ewp) feats and +1 fort save.
With a fighter level and switching to longbow, I loose 2 points of average damage (1d8->2d6 while in giants stance) but I can get weapon supremacy and another feat. I could add twf and replace the unused maneuver and boulder roll with melee strikes for added versitility (because the mongoose maneuvers are quite effective with twf. Or instead of supremacy and twf, I could get many shot/ improved rapid shot to focus on my archery though I am not convinced the +2 effective to hit would be worth it compared to being able to take 10 and add 5 on lower attacks that I would get with supremacy.

The following martial stances are at least somewhat useful for ranged combatants
Desert Wind
Flames Blessing
Holocaust Cloak
Rising Pheonix

Devoted Spirit
Aura of Perfect Order [law]
Aura of Triumph [good] *6
Aura of Tyranny [Evil]
Immortal Fortitude

Diamond Mind
Hearing the Air
Pearl of Black Doubt
Stance of Alacrity
Stance of Clarity

Iron Heart
Absolute Steel
Supreme Blade Parry

Setting Sun
Ghostly Defense
Giant Killing Style
Shifting Defense
Step of the Wind

Shadow Hand
Assassins Stance
Balance on the Sky *7
Child of Shadow
Dance of the Spider *7
Step of the Dancing Moth

Stone Dragon
Giants Stance
Stonefoot Stance
Strenth of Stone
Roots of the mountain

Tiger Claw
Blood in the Water
Hunters Sense
Leaping Dragon Stance

White Raven
Bolstering Voice
Leading the Charge
Press the Advantage
Swarm Tactics

The following martial maneuvers do not require melee attacks
Desert Wind
Blistering Flourish
Distracting Ember
Dragons Flame
Fan the Flames
Fire Repost ****
Fire Snake *****
Hatchlings Flame
Inferno Blast
Leaping Flame
Ring of Fire
Wind Stride
Wyrm's Flame
Zypher Dance

Devoted Spirit
Shield Block ***

Diamond Mind
Action Before Thought
Diamond Defense
Mind over body
Moment of Alacrity
Quicksilver Motion
*Time Stands Still

Iron Heart
Iron Heart Endurance
Iron Heart Focus
Iron Heart Surge

Setting Sun
Baffling Defence
Feigned Opening *6
Mirrored Pursuit
Scorpion Parry
Stalking Shadow

Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception
One With Shadow
Shadow Blink
Shadow Garrote
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Noose
Shadow Stride

Stone Dragon
*Adamantine Bones
Boulder Roll
*EarthStrike Quake
Mountain Avalanche

Tiger Claw
**Dancing Mongoose
Fountain of Blood
**Raging Mongoose
Sudden Leap

White Raven
Lions Roar
Order Forged From Chaos
White Raven Tactics

* strikes that work with ranged weapons
** boosts that grant extra attacks that work with ranged weapons
*** debatable: only when using a bluckler or shield. It does not specificy if you must be recieving the shields bonus yourself, so with a loose interperetation a bow user could use this with a buckler.
**** Debatable: While you do make a melee touch attack, it does not specify if this is a weapon related attack or not.
***** Broken: Duration is instantanious, but the firesnake moves at 60ft per round? What action is it to control a fire snake? none is indicated. How many firesnakes can one control at once? no limit is specified? What is to stop me from having nigh infinate firesnakes running around? and dealing 6d6 damage to everything in sight (In this case evasion is actually bad because if I deal no damage on a successful reflex save the fire snake can keep passing through your square until you fail a save.) Can a target he stuck by different fire snakes in the same round? if so we are looking at an infinate damage loop. I recommend as a houserul a duration of concentration, IE 1 standard action per round to mantain or a 5 round effect limit (like salamander charge).
*6 partial: while you don't benifit, a melee using ally can.
*7 while using a 1 handed ranged weapon.

Anyone see any errors here? Anyone have any suggestions? Anyone want to make comparisons to other builds? This is one of my first optimization experiments, and i did it just to demonstrate that the warblade can be effective at ranged combat even if he doesn't start with a martial ranged weapon or bonus feats that apply to ranged combat. Plus he not only is a good archer, but he with the diamond mind save buffs he can survive save or dies more easilly than the fighter and if using iron heart surge he can even remove hostile status effects on himself."

[Monodominant]

I also preferred warblade to swordsage but my problem is that warblade doesnt get the Fallen Star technique...

Penetrating stance ACF was a good catch and has now been added! Thank you!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Penetrating strike only works when you are flanking, so it is incompatible with ranged attacks.

[Talionis]

I also preferred warblade to swordsage but my problem is that warblade doesnt get the Fallen Star technique...

Penetrating stance ACF was a good catch and has now been added! Thank you!

Is Fallen Star Technique Homebrew? If so Warblade could work.

Also don't forget you can use Martial Study to add a maneuver to your Warblade list and use Warblade recovery....

[toapat]

Penetrating strike only works when you are flanking, so it is incompatible with ranged attacks.

covered that already, Distracting Attack gives flanking to anything when you need it

[TuggyNE]

Except DR does apply to spells that specify a damage type the DR would block (bludgeoning, piercing or slashing).

To the best of my knowledge, this only happens if the spell "opts in" to DR.

[Talionis]

Warblades are actually amazing archers, specializing in crossbows. You need to get proficiency of course (Targeteer Fighter 2 is a solid dip to start out), and you'll want Aptitude cheese to make it good (Hand Crossbow Mastery from Drow of the Underdark + Aptitude Great Crossbow is a solid start). Combine Blood in the Water with various maneuvers that work with ranged attacks (White Raven Tactics, Raging Mongoose, etc) and critical increasers (Improved Critical) for serious damage output.

Without aptitude, you'd have to use hand crossbows, which reduces the bonus but they're still decent.

For enchantments, Splitting is the most important thing. Combined with Rapid Shot and other attack boosters and you should be able to fire a heck of a lot of shots.

The main idea is to get as many crits as possible while letting Blood in the Water send your damage up as fast as possible.

JaronK

Jaron, do you have this statted out anywhere?

[toapat]

Jaron, do you have this statted out anywhere?

its the same thing as Heavy Weapons Elf pretty much. you use tiger claw to get rediculous damage

[molten_dragon]

There is basically no support for ranged combat in the ToB. The only thing that comes close is bloodstorm blade, which is thrown weapons rather than bow/crossbow use.

Several people (including myself) have homebrewed ranged maneuvers and classes to use them, but I don't know if your DM would allow that.

[Talionis]

There is basically no support for ranged combat in the ToB. The only thing that comes close is bloodstorm blade, which is thrown weapons rather than bow/crossbow use.


Certainly many have made good Homebrew, but as shown above while the maneuvers generally do not aid in ranged combat, many of the Boosts and Stances are very good for a ranged combatant. Tome of Battle can offer some things to ranged attackers.

One of the nice things about using Tome of Battle for a ranged character is that the Characters may still be very good at melee as well. Often just changing what maneuvers you have readied will allow you to go from Ranged to Melee combat.

[JaronK]

Jaron, do you have this statted out anywhere?

I've done it a few times, but it's pretty straight forward. Just pump up your ability to get crits, combine it with things that benefit from them (like blood in the water), and go from there. It works really well. You just need to get proficiency, but a two level dip in Targeteer solves that completely.

The really cheesy version uses an Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbow with Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick, so every critical threat gives you two more shots, and every confirmed crit gives two more shots... with Blood in the Water, once you gain momentum you never stop shooting.

JaronK

[Talya]

You just need to get proficiency

Only if using "hand crossbows or great crossbows. Light and Heavy Crossbows are simple weapons.

Swordsage and Warblade are proficient in "simple and martial melee weapons." The restriction to melee weapons is only applicable to martial weapons in that sentence. For simple weapons, they get them all, ranged and melee.

(Crusader is already proficient in all simple and martial weapons, without the melee restriction on either of them.)

[Larkas]

Really? I've always read that to mean simple melee and martial melee weapons. Interesting!

[Vaz]

So did I; "all simple weapons and martial melee weapons" would be as suggested. Without simple being clarified in such a manner, it still reads as simple melee weapons.

[Larkas]

So did I; "all simple weapons and martial melee weapons" would be as suggested. Without simple being clarified in such a manner, it still reads as simple melee weapons.

Indeed, that makes more sense.

[Talya]

So did I; "all simple weapons and martial melee weapons" would be as suggested. Without simple being clarified in such a manner, it still reads as simple melee weapons.


I disagree. If they meant to limit simple weapons to melee only, it should have read "all simple melee and martial melee weapons."

[Larkas]

I disagree. If they meant to limit simple weapons to melee only, it should have read "all simple melee and martial melee weapons."

Bottomline, ask your DM. This is as ambiguous as the infamous "48÷2(9+3)". It could've been written in a better form, but alas, it wasn't.

Mandatory links: [1] (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/48293) and [2] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwpWw-iVKHc).

[Talya]

Bottomline, ask your DM. This is as ambiguous as the infamous "48÷2(9+3)". It could've been written in a better form, but alas, it wasn't.

Mandatory links: [1] (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/48293) and [2] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwpWw-iVKHc).

I understand your point.

I now digress and say, on the mathematics issue, there should be no debate. The orders of operations give multiplication and division (which are the same thing) equal precedence, and infix notation requires that operations of equal precedence are performed from left to right.

Therefore 48÷2(9+3) = 48÷2 x 12 = 24 x 12 = 288

That's just how it is. Any debate is caused by a lack of understanding/education.

[Vaz]

I disagree. If they meant to limit simple weapons to melee only, it should have read "all simple melee and martial melee weapons."

I am going to ask at this point if English is your first language? As complicated as the language is, if someone came and asked for a Choloate and Vanilla Ice Cream, would you come out with a Chocolate Bar and Vanilla Ice Cream or a Chocolate Ice Cream and a Vanilla Ice Cream?

Cream; Noun; Weapon
Ice; Type of; Melee
Vanilla/Chocolate; Flavour; Simple/martial.

Not the best example, I know, but as I'm eating a Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream it felt appropriate.

In regards to your maths, remember BODMAS?

48/2(9+3) is 48/2(12) is 48/24 is 2/1 or simply, 2.

[Larkas]

I... Shouldn't have brought that up here, should've I? :smalleek:

[Lord_Gareth]

I... Shouldn't have brought that up here, should've I? :smalleek:

Yeah, grammar arguments in 3.5 RAW usually end in a small nation being burned to the ground.

[Philistine]

The multiplication is outside the parentheses and so gets no preference; so reading left-to-right, the division happens first.

[Lord_Gareth]

The multiplication is outside the parentheses and so gets no preference; so reading left-to-right, the division happens first.

That's how she did it.

EDIT: To clarify, that's how Tayla did it.

[Talya]

I am going to ask at this point if English is your first language? As complicated as the language is, if someone came and asked for a Choloate and Vanilla Ice Cream, would you come out with a Chocolate Bar and Vanilla Ice Cream or a Chocolate Ice Cream and a Vanilla Ice Cream?

Cream; Noun; Weapon
Ice; Type of; Melee
Vanilla/Chocolate; Flavour; Simple/martial.

Not the best example, I know, but as I'm eating a Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream it felt appropriate.
Yes, English is my first and only language.

Let's use a closer example to the one in the Tome of Battle.

You go to the register at McDonalds and ask for chocolate and vanilla with nuts sundaes. This is awkward phrasing, but is exactly equivalent, grammatically, to saying "simple and martial melee weapons."

Using math as an example, are they saying Chocolate + Vanilla(nuts) sundaes? or (Chocolate + Vanilla)nuts sundaes? Is "with nuts" modifying both the sundaes? Or just the vanilla it is beside?

It is ambiguous. Similarly, is it Simple + Martial(melee) weapons? or (Simple + Martial)melee weapons? My gut reaction seeing that was that "melee" modifies the word Martial. So the DM should probably be asked.


In regards to your maths, remember BODMAS?

48/2(9+3) is 48/2(12) is 48/24 is 2/1 or simply, 2.

BODMAS (more commonly BEDMAS, also, PEMDAS) is a memorization tool. It's not the order of operations. The key to this, is multiplication = division. (likewise, Addition = subtraction.) They are the same operations, they have the same priority. You don't treat them differently, they are done from left to right in the order they appear. If that wasn't made clear to the student when they were given their little mnemonic tools to remember the order of operations, the teacher screwed up. Treating it as literally "Division before Multiplication" implies a lack of understanding of the math you are performing.

[Talionis]

Actually, I think it is pretty clear that Swordsage is proficient with

1. All Simple weapons.
2. All melee Martial weapons.

Where the "and" in the sentence is located clearly makes the above true.

But it also makes sense. Simple weapons don't take much training to be proficient. So it makes sense you'd get all the simple weapons and a smaller subset of martial weapons that are harder to use.

You aren't gaining too much with the above interpretation. Any build attempting to maximize the use of crossbows is going to dumping a lot of feats for not much benefit. Why make them drop an additional feat for something that was probably intended.

I mean you have to actually use poor English to read it as only melee weapons.

[Larkas]

As Talya rightfully said, it is not much a reading comprehension failure as it is awkward phrasing. Using the math example I posted earlier, you can arguably solve it using the order of operations, but whoever wrote that equation could've been less of an *** and written it as both (48÷2)(9+3) or 48÷[2(9+3)]. Arguably, ToB could've said something along the lines of "all simple and only martial melee weapons" or "all simple melee and martial melee weapons". That's why the DM input is relevant.

[Talionis]

I understand we speak with poor English construction all the time, but when we write and when we read we should take the time to correctly articulate what we are saying.

In other words, Jane says, "I want Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream," (spoken) and I want Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream (written), are different statements. If written, you could've taken the time to write: I want chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream if you meant that. The only way you could say I want Chocolate (Bar) and Vanilla Ice Cream is to write it as above.

When spoken the language allows for people to be less accurate because miscommunications can be detected by context and situation and body language or further questions. Its assumed a writing will be more specific because time should have been taken to construct the sentence with the meaning it was intended to have. Thus the boards here usually care much more about RAW than RAI.

[JaronK]

...Either way, you need Hand Crossbows and Great Crossbows, so it doesn't really matter.

JaronK

[shadow_archmagi]

This is why we need the oxford comma

[Endarire]

Back on topic!

I revised all 9 Tome of Battle disciplines and added 3 more, as inspired by fellow martial enthusiasts, including Eternal Mount, Falling Star, and Unquiet Twilight (http://antioch.snow-fall.com/files/members/Endarire/DnD/Greg%20Campbell%5C%27s%20Revised%20D%26D%203.5%20M artial%20Disciplines%20for%20Public%20Distribution %2012%2014%2012.zip).

[nedz]

This is why we need the oxford comma

But any sane DM would ban the oxford comma.

[Stouts]

This is why we need the oxford comma

But any sane DM would ban the oxford comma.

There is clearly no list here, you people have heard of the oxford comma, and people who have heard of the oxford comma should understand its usage. :smallmad:

(that's right; finally made an account to join a grammar argument)